---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 01/30/12: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:09 AM - Fastons and Ground Bus (Jon McLin) 2. 06:25 AM - Re: Fastons and Ground Bus (James Kilford) 3. 07:19 AM - Re: Sign of the times (John Grosse) 4. 07:20 AM - Re: Fastons and Ground Bus (Jared Yates) 5. 07:27 AM - Re: Fastons and Ground Bus (John Grosse) 6. 07:28 AM - Re: Fastons and Ground Bus (Joe Dubner) 7. 07:55 AM - Re: Fastons and Ground Bus (Richard Girard) 8. 08:06 AM - Re: Re: Fastons and Ground Bus (Dennis Ramsey) 9. 09:48 AM - Re: Fastons and Ground Bus (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 10:50 AM - Re: Re: Fastons and Ground Bus (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 11. 01:19 PM - 2 Questions (Rasmussen, Robert CAPT USFF, N3 OTRC) 12. 05:24 PM - Re: Can Xfeed damage smaller battery. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 06:54 PM - Transponder antenna (tomcostanza) 14. 07:07 PM - Re: 2 Questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 07:40 PM - Re: Transponder antenna (B Tomm) 16. 08:38 PM - Re: Transponder antenna (Stein Bruch) 17. 09:26 PM - Re: Transponder antenna (B Tomm) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:09:05 AM PST US From: Jon McLin Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fastons and Ground Bus Bob, Here: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Grounding/gnd_bus.jpg we see a lovely ganged faston with about 24 tabs. The biggest I've found is at Digikey, where they stock a 6-tab part (and they list an 8-tab part, but it is non-stock). Can you identify a source for high-count faston strips? Second: suppose I wanted a similar bus for some ring terminals. The only prefab bars I can find are for 19" equipment racks, and are big, heavy, and sparse. Seems like the options are to rivet a series of 6-32 nutplates to an aluminum or copper strip, or drill and tap a brass or copper bar. The nutplates are typically locking, and plated steel, whereas the threaded bar may not be robust (eg, easy to strip the threads). Opinions? Finally, I ran across this faston distribution strip on the web: http://www.eagleconnector.com/fseries.html Cessna used a faston distribution for the light dimming bus. In the Cessna case, it was hand-assembled: screw terminal strip; jumpers to bridge adjacent rows; and straight and angled fastons attached to the screws. (Cessna used 0.187 fastons for this, and .250 for everything else). Anyway, prefabricated faston distribution strips like this might be useful - ever run across a retail source of such? Jon ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:25:32 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fastons and Ground Bus From: James Kilford Jon, You can get them from B&C: http://www.bandc.biz/grounding-supplies-battery-cables.aspx I've bought one and it's just the job. James On 30 January 2012 14:04, Jon McLin wrote: > > Bob, > Here: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Grounding/gnd_bus.jpg we see > a lovely ganged faston with about 24 tabs. The biggest I've found is at > Digikey, where they stock a 6-tab part (and they list an 8-tab part, but it > is non-stock). Can you identify a source for high-count faston strips? > > Second: suppose I wanted a similar bus for some ring terminals. The only > prefab bars I can find are for 19" equipment racks, and are big, heavy, and > sparse. Seems like the options are to rivet a series of 6-32 nutplates to > an aluminum or copper strip, or drill and tap a brass or copper bar. The > nutplates are typically locking, and plated steel, whereas the threaded bar > may not be robust (eg, easy to strip the threads). Opinions? > > Finally, I ran across this faston distribution strip on the web: > http://www.eagleconnector.com/fseries.html > > Cessna used a faston distribution for the light dimming bus. In the > Cessna case, it was hand-assembled: screw terminal strip; jumpers to bridge > adjacent rows; and straight and angled fastons attached to the screws. > (Cessna used 0.187 fastons for this, and .250 for everything else). > > Anyway, prefabricated faston distribution strips like this might be useful > - ever run across a retail source of such? > > Jon > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:19:46 AM PST US From: John Grosse Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Sign of the times Ebay owns PayPal, but technically they are different companies and they started out independently. John Grosse David wrote: > > Aren't PayPal and Ebay the same company? > > David M. > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:20:49 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fastons and Ground Bus From: Jared Yates Depending on your time/money balance and application, another option is to make one. I used brass terminal strips from Stein and a piece of thin brass stock from the hobby store: http://jaredyates.com/bearhawk/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/IMG_0262.jpg Here's the link for Stein: http://www.steinair.com/storedetail.cfm?productid=14 I have about $14 ($8 for tabs, $3 for brass, and $3 for hardware) invested in mine, so in my case it was worth an hour or so of work to save the cost of the B&C. This strategy could also be useful if you want a special shape or layout, since you can make it exactly as you want. Stein also has some options that may answer question 2: http://www.steinair.com/store.cfm?tlcatid=27 On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 9:22 AM, James Kilford wrote: > Jon, > > You can get them from B&C: > > http://www.bandc.biz/grounding-supplies-battery-cables.aspx > > I've bought one and it's just the job. > > James > > > On 30 January 2012 14:04, Jon McLin wrote: > >> >> Bob, >> Here: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Grounding/gnd_bus.jpg we >> see a lovely ganged faston with about 24 tabs. The biggest I've found is >> at Digikey, where they stock a 6-tab part (and they list an 8-tab part, but >> it is non-stock). Can you identify a source for high-count faston strips? >> >> Second: suppose I wanted a similar bus for some ring terminals. The only >> prefab bars I can find are for 19" equipment racks, and are big, heavy, and >> sparse. Seems like the options are to rivet a series of 6-32 nutplates to >> an aluminum or copper strip, or drill and tap a brass or copper bar. The >> nutplates are typically locking, and plated steel, whereas the threaded bar >> may not be robust (eg, easy to strip the threads). Opinions? >> >> Finally, I ran across this faston distribution strip on the web: >> http://www.eagleconnector.com/fseries.html >> >> Cessna used a faston distribution for the light dimming bus. In the >> Cessna case, it was hand-assembled: screw terminal strip; jumpers to bridge >> adjacent rows; and straight and angled fastons attached to the screws. >> (Cessna used 0.187 fastons for this, and .250 for everything else). >> >> Anyway, prefabricated faston distribution strips like this might be >> useful - ever run across a retail source of such? >> >> Jon >> >> >> >> ========== >> - >> ric-List" target="_blank"> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> ========== >> MS - >> k">http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> e - >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> >> > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:27:44 AM PST US From: John Grosse Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fastons and Ground Bus I used a sheet of brass, drilled holes at appropriate spacing for my studs then inserted brass machine screws from the rear and tightened down a brass nut from the front. I used liquid flux under the head, nut, and threads then applied solder using a torch to get sufficient heat to the whole assembly. I completed the assembly with two flat washers, a star washer, and a nut (all brass). It worked great and I was able to have different sizes of studs for different purposes. John Grosse Jon McLin wrote: > Second: suppose I wanted a similar bus for some ring terminals. The only prefab bars I can find are for 19" equipment racks, and are big, heavy, and sparse. Seems like the options are to rivet a series of 6-32 nutplates to an aluminum or copper strip, or drill and tap a brass or copper bar. The nutplates are typically locking, and plated steel, whereas the threaded bar may not be robust (eg, easy to strip the threads). Opinions? ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:28:20 AM PST US From: Joe Dubner Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Fastons and Ground Bus > Can you identify a source for high-count faston strips? Jon, Steinair sells a "10 Tab Ground Strip" for a dollar (http://www.steinair.net/storedetail.cfm?productid=14). A few dollars worth of these, a piece of hobby store 0.040-inch brass sheet, and a bit of soldering (with a torch) will give you any size ground block you need. -- Joe Independence, OR RV-8A finish kit phase Long-EZ flying Jon McLin wrote: > > Bob, > Here: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Grounding/gnd_bus.jpg we see a lovely ganged faston with about 24 tabs. The biggest I've found is at Digikey, where they stock a 6-tab part (and they list an 8-tab part, but it is non-stock). Can you identify a source for high-count faston strips? [message trimmed] ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:55:03 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fastons and Ground Bus From: Richard Girard I made mine, too. A strip of .032" brass from the hobby shop, a little time with a digital caliper to lay out, punch and drill and then band saw to the holes. I got just what I wanted for $3 and part of an evening. Rick Girard On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 9:24 AM, John Grosse wrote: > grosseair@comcast.net> > > I used a sheet of brass, drilled holes at appropriate spacing for my studs > then inserted brass machine screws from the rear and tightened down a brass > nut from the front. I used liquid flux under the head, nut, and threads > then applied solder using a torch to get sufficient heat to the whole > assembly. I completed the assembly with two flat washers, a star washer, > and a nut (all brass). It worked great and I was able to have different > sizes of studs for different purposes. > John Grosse > > > Jon McLin wrote: > >> Second: suppose I wanted a similar bus for some ring terminals. The only >> prefab bars I can find are for 19" equipment racks, and are big, heavy, and >> sparse. Seems like the options are to rivet a series of 6-32 nutplates to >> an aluminum or copper strip, or drill and tap a brass or copper bar. The >> nutplates are typically locking, and plated steel, whereas the threaded bar >> may not be robust (eg, easy to strip the threads). Opinions? >> > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:06:09 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Fastons and Ground Bus From: Dennis Ramsey B&C sells both a 24 and a 48 fast on ground bus. On Jan 30, 2012 10:34 AM, "Joe Dubner" wrote: > > > Can you identify a source for high-count faston strips? > > Jon, > > Steinair sells a "10 Tab Ground Strip" for a dollar ( > http://www.steinair.net/**storedetail.cfm?productid=14). > A few dollars worth of these, a piece of hobby store 0.040-inch brass > sheet, and a bit of soldering (with a torch) will give you any size ground > block you need. > > -- > Joe > Independence, OR > RV-8A finish kit phase > Long-EZ flying > > > Jon McLin wrote: > >> >> Bob, >> Here: http://www.aeroelectric.com/**Pictures/Grounding/gnd_bus.jpg we see a lovely ganged faston with about 24 tabs. The biggest I've found >> is at Digikey, where they stock a 6-tab part (and they list an 8-tab part, >> but it is non-stock). Can you identify a source for high-count faston >> strips? >> > > [message trimmed] > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:48:37 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fastons and Ground Bus At 08:04 AM 1/30/2012, you wrote: Bob, Here: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Grounding/gnd_bus.jpg we see a lovely ganged faston with about 24 tabs. The biggest I've found is at Digikey, where they stock a 6-tab part (and they list an 8-tab part, but it is non-stock). Can you identify a source for high-count faston strips? Not easy to find in the constellation of suppliers to the commercial-off-the-shelf market. I designed the B&C ground tabs product about 15 years ago . . . back then we were getting continuous spools of 2-row, tab-stock which was cut to length and then sweat-soldered to a brass base. Sometimes we could exploit the offerings of a new-old-stock surplus house for cut-pieces suited to the task but rarely. The reason I turned that idea into a B&C product was because of the difficulty of finding long strings of tabs and the somewhat labor intensive techniques for acquiring all the materials and the assembling the critters. It's my humble opinion that you're way ahead in the value of your $time$ to get these pre-assembled. On the other hand, if you've got an itch to build on, use the stock parts from Digikey, pop rivet them to a brass base (one rivet in the center is good) for fixturing. Heat up with a torch from the under side while flowing 63/37 electronic solder into the joint between the base and tabs. Second: suppose I wanted a similar bus for some ring terminals. The only prefab bars I can find are for 19" equipment racks, and are big, heavy, and sparse. Seems like the options are to rivet a series of 6-32 nutplates to an aluminum or copper strip, or drill and tap a brass or copper bar. The nutplates are typically locking, and plated steel, whereas the threaded bar may not be robust (eg, easy to strip the threads). Opinions? Please don't drill and tap holes into anything for the purpose of crafting a bus bar. Use the same brass stock (.06 or thicker) base plate (square is better than single row, rectangular is better than single row). Install 10-32 brass screws and brass nuts in an array of ground studs. Solder screws and nuts to the brass plate. Use metallic lock-nuts to put your terminals down on the studs. If you're rolling your own, perhaps the tabs and studs can be on the same base. Finally, I ran across this faston distribution strip on the web: http://www.eagleconnector.com/fseries.html Cessna used a faston distribution for the light dimming bus. In the Cessna case, it was hand-assembled: screw terminal strip; jumpers to bridge adjacent rows; and straight and angled fastons attached to the screws. (Cessna used 0.187 fastons for this, and .250 for everything else). Many moons ago, I gave several copies of the 'Connection to the electrical group responsible for the single engine line in Independence KS. A short time later, I heard that they incorporated a single point ground into the product line. I'd like to believe the 'Connection planted the seeds of an attractive idea . . . Anyway, prefabricated faston distribution strips like this might be useful - ever run across a retail source of such? Try Eagle Connector. Their phone number is at the bottom of the data sheet: http://www.eagleconnector.com/images/F-series%20specs.pdf Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:50:41 AM PST US From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Fastons and Ground Bus This was exactly what I did, custom size and layout for a fraction of the price. Michael -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joe Dubner Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 9:26 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Fastons and Ground Bus > Can you identify a source for high-count faston strips? Jon, Steinair sells a "10 Tab Ground Strip" for a dollar (http://www.steinair.net/storedetail.cfm?productid=14). A few dollars worth of these, a piece of hobby store 0.040-inch brass sheet, and a bit of soldering (with a torch) will give you any size ground block you need. -- Joe Independence, OR RV-8A finish kit phase Long-EZ flying Jon McLin wrote: > > Bob, > Here: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Grounding/gnd_bus.jpg we see a lovely ganged faston with about 24 tabs. The biggest I've found is at Digikey, where they stock a 6-tab part (and they list an 8-tab part, but it is non-stock). Can you identify a source for high-count faston strips? [message trimmed] ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:19:09 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: 2 Questions From: "Rasmussen, Robert CAPT USFF, N3 OTRC" Hi y'all. First post, so be gentle. I'm wiring an RV8 (mostly vfr/xc) using Figure Z-11. I'll have a single aft mounted battery. 2 Questions: -does the Battery Bus have to be at/near the battery? I note the * = 6 inches or less in length notation, but I'd prefer to have it in the panel if possible. This would require an in-line fuse or fusible link on that wire at the battery. -what are the benefits of Schottky diode vs Bridge Rectifier (Radio Shack 276-1185; like on 'Connection page 1-9) between Main Bus and Battery Bus? -is a completed AEC9005 low voltage warning module available for sale? All I see on the AE product page is a Bare Etched Circuit Board. Ok, that's 3 questions - I'll pay back later :-) Thanks. raz ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:24:56 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Can Xfeed damage smaller battery. At 10:32 PM 1/29/2012, you wrote: I have a Z14 architecture (dual independent busses). On one bus I have a B&C 20A alternator (LR3 external regulator) and an 8 AH Odyssey 310 battery. On the other bus I have a B&C 40A alternator (LR3 external regulator) and a 17 AH Odyssey 680 battery. Between the two busses I have a Crossfeed Contactor. OK, so if one of my alternators malfunctions I can cut off its field supply and kill it. Then I can switch on my Crossfeed Contactor and all should be well. But maybe not. Is it possible that because I would then have two batteries of different capacity/resistance on line that the smaller battery might get fried over time. If so, would it make sense in those circumstances to switch off the master contactor for the smaller battery to protect the battery. This scenario offers no special issues. First, just because one alternator has failed may not call for an immediate closure of the cross- feed contactor. Assume the big alternator fails: Depending on how you've distributed loads on the two buses, it may be both possible and prudent to shut down the main bus completely and hold the main battery state of charge in reserve for descent and approach to landing. Since the aux battery is so small, you might as well just leave the main bus disconnected but power up the main battery master as you enter the airport traffic area. Then use that energy as needed for comfortable completion of flight. If the small alternator fails then closing the cross-feed contactor only puts your fully charged small battery in parallel with the main battery . . . no big deal. The only RISK to the small battery is to CHARGE it heavily from either alternator. If you KNOW that the little battery has been heavily discharged, better that you bring it up on a current limited charger before you go flying. Alternatively, charge in flight on the little alternator with as many aux bus accessories turned on as possible thus limiting the energy "left over" to charge the battery. But connecting dissimilar batteries in parallel presents no special risks to either battery. Both will deliver what ever energy they contain in an orderly manner. You just need to be careful not to stuff energy back into the little guy at a rate which will heat it up pretty good. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:54:03 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Transponder antenna From: "tomcostanza" Should I be concerned about mounting a transponder antenna near fuel lines/fittings? -------- Clear Skies, Tom Costanza Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=365267#365267 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:07:14 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 2 Questions At 03:10 PM 1/30/2012, you wrote: Hi y'all. First post, so be gentle. We're all friends here . . . 2 Questions: -does the Battery Bus have to be at/near the battery? I note the * = 6 inches or less in length notation, but I'd prefer to have it in the panel if possible. This would require an in-line fuse or fusible link on that wire at the battery. If it's not at the battery, it's not a battery bus. Fuses in the battery bus block are best limited to 10A or less, breakers at 5A or less. Always hot wires (wires over which the crew has no control) are protected with very limited ability to create high energy fault currents. The legacy rules in TC aircraft talk about about limiting heavy feeders to 6" and longer wires are protected at 5A or less (in breakers). -what are the benefits of Schottky diode vs Bridge Rectifier (Radio Shack 276-1185; like on 'Connection page 1-9) between Main Bus and Battery Bus? Slightly less voltage drop. But the differences are so small you'll never notice them from the pilot's seat. -is a completed AEC9005 low voltage warning module available for sale? All I see on the AE product page is a Bare Etched Circuit Board. Just the bare board. It's not hard to put together. Maybe this would be a good way to "dip your soldering iron in the waters of hand crafted electronics." Ok, that's 3 questions - I'll pay back later :-) Thanks. raz Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:40:41 PM PST US From: "B Tomm" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Transponder antenna Good question. Don't have an answer but would also like to know if the transponder needs some backing reinforcement or just mount it to the belly skin? Bevan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of tomcostanza Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 6:49 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Transponder antenna --> Should I be concerned about mounting a transponder antenna near fuel lines/fittings? -------- Clear Skies, Tom Costanza Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=365267#365267 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:38:29 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Transponder antenna From: Stein Bruch No worry about where you mount it, but re-enforcement is dependent on which antenna you use, where it is at, skin thickness, etc... Cheers, Stein Sent from my iPad On Jan 30, 2012, at 9:37 PM, "B Tomm" wrote: > > Good question. > > Don't have an answer but would also like to know if the transponder needs > some backing reinforcement or just mount it to the belly skin? > > Bevan > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > tomcostanza > Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 6:49 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Transponder antenna > > --> > > Should I be concerned about mounting a transponder antenna near fuel > lines/fittings? > > -------- > Clear Skies, > Tom Costanza > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=365267#365267 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:26:34 PM PST US From: "B Tomm" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Transponder antenna TED transponder on bottom belly skin of RV7. Probably 032 thick, maybe 040. Bevan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stein Bruch Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 8:34 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Transponder antenna --> No worry about where you mount it, but re-enforcement is dependent on which antenna you use, where it is at, skin thickness, etc... Cheers, Stein Sent from my iPad On Jan 30, 2012, at 9:37 PM, "B Tomm" wrote: > --> > > Good question. > > Don't have an answer but would also like to know if the transponder > needs some backing reinforcement or just mount it to the belly skin? > > Bevan > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > tomcostanza > Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 6:49 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Transponder antenna > > --> > > Should I be concerned about mounting a transponder antenna near fuel > lines/fittings? > > -------- > Clear Skies, > Tom Costanza > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=365267#365267 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.