---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 02/05/12: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:01 AM - Re: Shrink tubing shrinker. (James Kilford) 2. 06:26 AM - Re: Com and Nav Radio and Antenna Questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 09:20 AM - Z11 with rear battery in a Cub (Jeff Page) 4. 10:15 AM - Re: Z11 with rear battery in a Cub (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 10:27 AM - Re: alternator wiring (Kenneth Johnson) 6. 11:50 AM - Re: alternator wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 12:36 PM - Re: Z11 with rear battery in a Cub (Jeff Page) 8. 12:59 PM - Re: Re: Z11 with rear battery in a Cub (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 05:24 PM - Re: Com and Nav Radio and Antenna Questions (Don) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:01:41 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Shrink tubing shrinker. From: James Kilford I use an attachment that came with my portable gas soldering iron. You take the normal soldering bit out, and insert a special hot air nozzle. Works a treat and of course because it's not much bigger than a marker pen you can get right into small areas under the panel with it. James On 5 February 2012 00:59, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com**> > > > At 03:33 PM 2/4/2012, you wrote: > >> >> Greetings listers, >> >> I have been using a heat gun type thing that I got at a g-sale and the >> results are consistently satisfactory so I thought I'd share the info with >> the list. The tool is called an "embossing heat tool". >> > > Cool find sir! I'll pick one up when I'm in Wichita > this weekend and see what they're like. Years ago > I was pretty attached to my Weller "Princess" model > heat guns. They were something on the order of 250W > and delivered heat out a very compact nozzle. Nice > for close quarters work. They were not very robust > and the two I had eventually died but I was loath to > spend the $100+ to replace them. > > These look like they might be an attractive, low cost > alternative. Thanks for the heads-up. > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:26:53 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Com and Nav Radio and Antenna Questions At 09:31 PM 2/4/2012, you wrote: Bob and Listers When taking a standing wave ratio reading is it necessary to key the transmit button? Generally, yes. Most 'stand alone' swr instruments need some form of stimulation at the frequency of interest. If the above is correct how does one match nav radios to coax and antennas You find another signal source that will excite the feedline and antenna at the frequency of interest -OR- you use an instrument that features a built-in signal source like . . . Emacs! I am trying to help a friend with a Pitts that has radio problems. He flew today and could not hear the attis at KWHP on the ground or in the air. It was suggested that the arched was having problems because of the anti UV coating on the fabric so the Rami was installed and does not seem to work any better. Any ideas on where to start would be appreciated What you've described suggests a profound problem . . . some sort of disconnect or perhaps radio failure. Communications over distances you've suggested can usually be covered the most rudimentary of antennas. Certainly, an SWR test of the comm antenna AT THE RADIO END of the feedline is indicated. Get a hand-held transceiver and a short piece of coax to connect it to the ship's antenna. See if communications can be maintained on the alternate radio. Has the ICOM been bench checked? You can ramp check the radio by standing off a mile or so from the airplane with a hand held. See if you can talk to each other on the 122.750 (air-to-air, private aircraft) Unicom frequency. Use cell phones to know that the individual in the airplane is talking when indeed you can't hear him on the hand-held. The ground plane that the Rami antenna is mounted on is well under 44 by 44 inches. This aircraft is flown in acro mode and to place foil across the bottom of the fuse would cause vision problems while inverted. This is due to floor windows an either side of the existing ground plane. I believe that this is the major problem. Probably not. The size or shape of the ground plane will not have so profound an effect on antenna performance. Bob, after sending the last post I re-read the connection chapter on antennas base my belief on what I read. Comments? I am interested in the test set you talked about in the antenna chapter. Thanks in advance. The MFJ-259 pictured above is the grand-daddy of antenna analyzers. It will tell you everything you need to know about the antenna system. Proble is, they're kind of pricey. I think I bought my first one about 10 years ago for under $200. They're pushing $300 new http://www.mfjenterprises.com/Product.php?productid=MFJ-259B You can find them for a little less on eBay but not much. Another possibility is this little gem offered on eBay and elsewhere: http://tinyurl.com/7cl4bba I've got one on order for evaluation. If you don't have access to a capable VHF antenna analyzer or swr bridge, these two options are worth considering. But you can do a lot with a hand-held and some cell phones too. My guess is that the receive in the Icom has gone to sleep . . . or the antenna connector in the tray is open. The swr/pwr meter test at both ends of the feedline will verify continuity. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:20:39 AM PST US From: Jeff Page Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z11 with rear battery in a Cub A friend of mine is building a Smith Cub and has just decided he wants to put the battery in the rear due to weight and balance considerations. Wiring architecture is Z11. This is what I think he has to do. Please correct any misunderstandings I have ! Main contactor at the rear as close as possible to the battery. This feeds a heavy conductor to the firewall. This conductor cannot be practically circuit protected, so should be contained in a conduit. This cable is connected to the main bus at the firewall, and continues from there to the starter contactor. The main bus has the usual stuff, plus an amphib gear hydralic pump. A 4AWG wire does not easily connect to the Bussman fuse panel. Perhaps a junction at the firewall where the starter cable goes through and a 10AWG wire to the main bus which can now be more conveniently located under the panel ? Concern: this is a lot of wire running around without circuit protection. An ANL would probably be useful at the firewall junction if we take a 10AWG to the main bus fuseblock, but the main feed from the back to the starter must be installed with good physical protection. Turning off the master switch before a forced landing is extremely important. The battery bus as near as practical to the battery. This has a connection for the single Lightspeed ignition (other is a mag) and an always hot cigarette lighter socket on the instrument panel, fed with a 5A fuse. An endurance bus relay also fed from the battery bus and located there. I expect that running starter currents through the aircraft frame is not a good idea. So run a second heavy feed wire up to the firewall where a forest of tabs will be, including a strap to the engine for the starter current. This works out to two fat wires, one 12AWG, two 18AWG and two 22AWG wires running from the back to the front. Those should all run inside the same conduit. Should anything be done to prevent them chaffing against each other, or the conduit ? It is probably about 7 feet from the firewall to the battery, which needs to start an Aero Sport Power O-375. Will 4AWG be sufficient ? Or too much resistance, and he should upgrade to 2AWG ? Anything else I should have thought of ? Jeff Page Dream Aircraft Tundra #10 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:15:54 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z11 with rear battery in a Cub At 11:15 AM 2/5/2012, you wrote: A friend of mine is building a Smith Cub and has just decided he wants to put the battery in the rear due to weight and balance considerations. Wiring architecture is Z11. This is what I think he has to do. Please correct any misunderstandings I have ! Main contactor at the rear as close as possible to the battery. This feeds a heavy conductor to the firewall. Yes . . . This conductor cannot be practically circuit protected, so should be contained in a conduit. No . . . fat wires require no special protection. Support the wire to avoid abrasion due to motion and keep away from moving parts. This cable is connected to the main bus at the firewall, and continues from there to the starter contactor. I'd take it to the starter contactor. Bring a smaller, probably 6AWG wire from contactor to the main bus. The main bus has the usual stuff, plus an amphib gear hydralic pump. A 4AWG wire does not easily connect to the Bussman fuse panel. Why not? First it can probably be a 6AWG wire. 4AWG terminals for #10 stud are easy. Use welding cable to get soft, flexible and user-friendly routing and installation. Perhaps a junction at the firewall where the starter cable goes through and a 10AWG wire to the main bus which can now be more conveniently located under the panel ? Use hot side of starter contatctor for junction point. Concern: this is a lot of wire running around without circuit protection. An ANL would probably be useful at the firewall junction if we take a 10AWG to the main bus fuseblock, but the main feed from the back to the starter must be installed with good physical protection. Turning off the master switch before a forced landing is extremely important. Wires that carry cranking and/or major power distribution don't need 'protection' beyond making them cold by turning the master switch off. This is consistent with the FARs which guide the design and assembly of all part 23 and 25 airplanes. The battery bus as near as practical to the battery. This has a connection for the single Lightspeed ignition (other is a mag) and an always hot cigarette lighter socket on the instrument panel, fed with a 5A fuse. This can be a 10A fuse. As we've discussed earlier, the I(squared)x t constant for a fuse is still much smaller than the exemplar 5A breaker. Hence, it is no greater risk for post crash fire ignition than the 5A breaker. An endurance bus relay also fed from the battery bus and located there. Yes, since you disconnect adjacent to the battery bus, that fuse may be any practical size needed. I expect that running starter currents through the aircraft frame is not a good idea. So run a second heavy feed wire up to the firewall where a forest of tabs will be, including a strap to the engine for the starter current. That would be ideal. This works out to two fat wires, one 12AWG, two 18AWG and two 22AWG wires running from the back to the front. Those should all run inside the same conduit. Should anything be done to prevent them chaffing against each other, or the conduit ? No conduit. Just bundle them up and support on chafe-free clamps. It is probably about 7 feet from the firewall to the battery, which needs to start an Aero Sport Power O-375. Will 4AWG be sufficient ? Or too much resistance, and he should upgrade to 2AWG ? Lots of variables here. The delta-weight for 2 versus 4 on 14 feet seems a reasonable 'sacrifice'. But depending on starter, engine cranking requirements, battery condition, local ambient temperatures, etc. . . . 4AWG MIGHT be lighter than the owner would like . . . but he'll have to discover that for himself. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:27:38 AM PST US From: Kenneth Johnson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator wiring Bob, thanks again for your help. I have an EXP-Bus that I am using and in w hich I can connect- for OV protection.- Does the 10 o'clock connection go to this bus?=0AKen Johnson=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________ =0A From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" =0ATo: a eroelectric-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Saturday, February 4, 2012 12:14 PM =0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator wiring=0A =0A=0AAt 09:23 AM 2 /4/2012, you wrote:=0ABob and All,=0AI have appreciated all the information received during the last year or=0Atwo as I have been preparing to wire my panel.- The time has=0Acome.- I have a question regarding the wiring o f my alternator, a=0ABosch AL394X.- I have tried to find wiring schemes o n the internet,=0Abut have not been able to download what I need.- I have included a=0Apicture to help.-- At about 12 o'clock, I assume the larg e,=0Ablack connecter goes to the battery. =0A=0A-- Yes=0A=0A=0A-What should be done with the connector plug at about 10 o'clock=0Aabove the cent er hub . . .=0A=0A-- Leave it open=0A=0A-and the two connector plug a t about 6 o'clock below the center=0Ahub?- Thanks for your help!!!- Ken Johnson=0A=0A-- Ignore the "lamp" connection. Connect your=0Acontrol =0A-- input wire to "IGN". Do you have a plan for=0Adealing with=0A- - an OV condition?=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A- Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:50:36 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator wiring At 12:23 PM 2/5/2012, you wrote: >Bob, thanks again for your help. I have an EXP-Bus that I am using >and in which I can connect for OV protection. Does the 10 o'clock >connection go to this bus? The data was not helpful about the upper-left terminal . . . given that it's an internally regulated alternator, I haven't even got a good guess as to what that terminal is for. At 70A, it's certainly a robust alternator. But without adding a b-lead disconnect contactor, this style of alternator many not be controllable from outside during a runaway OV event. Suggest you consider modifying it for use with an external regulator, ov protection system friendlier to airplanes. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:36:57 PM PST US From: Jeff Page Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z11 with rear battery in a Cub Thanks for your answers Bob. It will be easier to install the wires without a conduit. 6AWG direct from the starter contactor to the main bus is a good approach. Yes, the cigarette lighter could have up to a 10A fuse, but not needed for probably a 2A load. Wiring will be sufficient to upsize later if needed. It is important to able to start a float plane. Changing 4AWG to 2AWG after the build would be a challenge, so I expect we will install 2AWG to begin with if there is any possibility of 4AWG being too small. Thanks ! Jeff Page Dream Aircraft Tundra #10 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:59:35 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z11 with rear battery in a Cub > >It is important to able to start a float plane. Changing 4AWG to 2AWG >after the build would be a challenge, so I expect we will install 2AWG >to begin with if there is any possibility of 4AWG being too small. Sounds like a Plan! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:24:41 PM PST US From: "Don" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Com and Nav Radio and Antenna Questions From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 6:23 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Com and Nav Radio and Antenna Questions Bob, Thanks for the quick response. Has the ICOM been bench checked? You can ramp check the radio by standing off a mile or so from the airplane with a hand held. See if you can talk to each other on the 122.750 (air-to-air, private aircraft) Unicom frequency. Use cell phones to know that the individual in the airplane is talking when indeed you can't hear him on the hand-held. A few weeks ago we tried using a hand held with the Archer antenna and it worked fine. We sent the xcom radio in (sorry I gave the wrong name in original poat) for testing to the US dealer. The unit is made in Australia so going back to the manufacturer is very time consuming. The dealer said everything checked out fine. One additional item is that the radio has a remote head and no tray as the more conventional type will not fit in a Pitts Probably not. The size or shape of the ground plane will not have so profound an effect on antenna performance. Today we tried the handheld with the Archer and the Rami antennas and found the attis perfectly clear as it had been the last time we tried this. (should have known that it was not the antenna but believed the dealer when he said the radio checked out). The radio is going back to the manufacturer. Bob, after sending the last post I re-read the connection chapter on antennas base my belief on what I read. Comments? I am interested in the test set you talked about in the antenna chapter. Thanks in advance. The MFJ-259 pictured above is the grand-daddy of antenna analyzers. It will tell you everything you need to know about the antenna system. Proble is, they're kind of pricey. I think I bought my first one about 10 years ago for under $200. They're pushing $300 new This will not break the bank, will purchase one. It does not mention the ability to excite the feedline and antenna for setting up vor so U will need help in doing that. The wingtip antenna you talk about in the connection is a slightly modified Archer. Archer mounts them to the fiberglass wing tip and sandwiches it between the glass and the wing root for the ground. I am looking for the instructions that came with the unit and will send them to you as soon as I find them. I would like to be able to get one of these. To work in each wing tip for my two vors. I have an APRS (2meter Jpole in one wingtip that may make it impossible to get the Archer to work. I will ask the additional questions after I send you the Archer instructions. 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