Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:46 AM - Test-please ignore (rayj)
2. 05:06 AM - Re: Stobes (stearman456)
3. 05:37 AM - ELT Antenna ()
4. 05:48 AM - Re: Test-please ignore (Michael Welch)
5. 06:15 AM - Re: Test-please ignore (rayj)
6. 06:47 AM - Re: Jabiru 3300 Over Voltage (user9253)
7. 09:17 AM - Re: Re: Stobes (Jared Yates)
8. 09:49 AM - Re: ELT Antenna (BobsV35B@aol.com)
9. 10:04 AM - Expanded horizons for the List? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 10:57 AM - Expanded horizons (automotive question) (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS)
11. 10:58 AM - Re: ELT Antenna (Noel Loveys)
12. 11:00 AM - Re: ELT Antenna (Noel Loveys)
13. 12:07 PM - Re: Expanded horizons (automotive question) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
14. 12:42 PM - Re: Re: Stobes (Tim Perry)
15. 07:05 PM - Re: ELT Antenna ()
Message 1
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| Subject: | Test-please ignore |
Test 1 2 3
do not archive
--
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
Message 2
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What is the advantage to having local power supplies for your strobe lights vs
a single, central,power supply - or vice versa? The two strobe systems I'm considering
are identical (lights, output) apart from three power supplies vs one.
Dan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369203#369203
Message 3
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3/23/2012
Hello Noel Loveys, Thank you for your inputs on this subject, but in the
interest of stamping out hearsay, gossip, and rumors regarding experimental
amateur built aircraft I'd like to point out that some of your comments are
just not applicable in the USA.
The following statements that you wrote are not correct in the USA:
1) "In that case if even on an OBAM aircraft the ELT and transponder must be
installed or signed off by a certified AME (Canada) or A&P (U.S.)"
2) "One of the things I do not like about the new ELT is that aircraft
cannot
borrow another ELT while one is out having scheduled service done."
3) "...so they wouldn't have to fly without one... Which is legal for up to
90
days."
Note that the regulatory requirements for having an ELT in a US registered
civil aircraft operating in the US, and the circumstances permitted for
flying without an ELT installed, are contained in 14 CFR 91.207. That
section is too long and complicated to be copied, or even extracted in this
posting. It may be accessed here:
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=e13e8f64d66f124a79dbd562cbe93f0b&rgn=div8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.3.10.3.7.4&idno=14
4) "In fact even a licensed AME is not allowed to change the batteries on an
ELT
it has to be done by an approved Avionics tech or an approved avionics
shop."
5) "Amateur built aircraft are another quintal of fish... They don't even
have
to carry an ELT."
They do in the USA in accordance with 14 CFR 91.207.
Thanks for your help in posting accuracy.
'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to
gather and understand knowledge."
=============================================================
Time: 11:11:14 AM PST US
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: ELT Antenna
In that case if even on an OBAM aircraft the ELT and transponder must be
installed or signed off by a certified AME (Canada) or A&P (U.S.)
Noel
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly
McMullen
Sent: March 21, 2012 8:26 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: ELT Antenna
The minimum for use of ELTs is to demonstrate that the complete system meets
the TSO. Good luck with doing that with a roll your own antenna of unknown
impedance and SWR. ELTs and transponders are two items on OBAM aircraft that
must comply with the TSO.
Noel wrote:
It sure would be... but for amateur aircraft you might be able to use your
own antenna.
Noel
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed
Holyoke
Sent: March 20, 2012 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ELT Antenna
Have to look at your ELT installation instructions. The ELT is TSOed and
might require that you use their antenna.
=========================================================
Time: 06:36:13 PM PST US
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: ELT Antenna
In this country any appliance on a certified aircraft with certain
exceptions has to be installed by or checked by a certified AME ( aircraft
maintenance engineer ) and the installation has to be documented in the
airframe log book and noted if there is a separate log book for the
appliance.
One of the things I do not like about the new ELT is that aircraft cannot
borrow another ELT while one is out having scheduled service done. In the
past the AMO I worked for had a "loaner" ELT that we would put in aircraft
so they wouldn't have to fly without one... Which is legal for up to 90
days.
In fact even a licensed AME is not allowed to change the batteries on an ELT
it has to be done by an approved Avionics tech or an approved avionics shop.
Amateur built aircraft are another quintal of fish... They don't even have
to carry an ELT. Mind I don't know anyone who is stupid enough to fly this
land without one.
Noel
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Test-please ignore |
>
> Test 1 2 3
>
> do not archive
> --
> Raymond Julian
> Kettle River, MN
Ray,
Although you did request we ignore your "test", I couldn't help but get a chuckle.
You DO know you read it, right?
I think the "1 2 3" part was mostly intended for the benefit of audio testing.
Sorry, but I just got a kick out of it! hahaha
(no offense intended).
Mike Welch
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Test-please ignore |
Always glad to add a smile to someone's day.
do not archive
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
On 03/23/2012 07:46 AM, Michael Welch wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Michael Welch<mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
>
>
>>
>> Test 1 2 3
>>
>> do not archive
>> --
>> Raymond Julian
>> Kettle River, MN
>
> Ray,
>
> Although you did request we ignore your "test", I couldn't help but get a
chuckle. You DO know you read it, right?
> I think the "1 2 3" part was mostly intended for the benefit of audio testing.
Sorry, but I just got a kick out of it! hahaha
> (no offense intended).
>
>
> Mike Welch
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru 3300 Over Voltage |
Rich,
Did you ever solve the high voltage problem? Did you try adding a robust ground
lead from regulator case to ship's single point ground as Bob Nuckolls suggested?
Or was the regulator bad? I am curious to know the answer.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369217#369217
Message 7
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The remote units are likely going to be a heavier installation, and they
will require some sort of mechanism for synchronization if there is to be
any.
On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 8:05 AM, stearman456 <warbirds@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> What is the advantage to having local power supplies for your strobe
> lights vs a single, central,power supply - or vice versa? The two strobe
> systems I'm considering are identical (lights, output) apart from three
> power supplies vs one.
>
> Dan
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369203#369203
>
>
Message 8
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Good Morning Tom,
I not only know very little about Canada, but also do not know much about
figuring out from where a message is sent. I carefully worded my answer to
make it clear that I did not know.
Glad that it worked for you, but we could make similar statements about
the advisability of having two engines and/or two pilots.
I do NOT feel that regulations should force me to do things which I do not
wish to do.
That is political!
I fly almost entirely within the Contiguous Forty Eight.
Long before the ELT was forced upon us, I made a practice of carrying a
portable radio with which I could ask for help if needed. (An early Bayside
was my choice at the time.) I continue to carry a portable radio and I always
carry IFR charts so I can be sure of getting on a frequency that is being
heavily monitored in the area over which I am flying. Since 911, we are
required to monitor guard if possible, but that has not always been so. The
ELT has a terrible record. An accurate flight plan posted with a friend or
the FAA has shown to have much a better success rate.
I think my way is better, but it should be my choice!
I would suggest carrying a nice new PLB. (I actually carry one in my flight
bag, but that is beside the point.) The big thing is that it should be my
decision, not the decision of a bureaucrat in Washington and that IS
Political!
The airliners do not carry an ELT. Why should I?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 3/22/2012 11:48:40 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
kuffel@cyberport.net writes:
Old Bob says:
<< Noel, .. What country are you discussing? >>
His email address is Canada. His description fits what little I know of
Canada's regulatory environment.
<< I do not feel one whit more secure since we were forced to install the
ELT. >>
This sentiment conflicts with my direct, personal experience. In Alaska
in the 1970s when ELTs were first forced upon us, the false activation rate
(especially in very cold weather) and the failure to activate rate (mostly
due to poor antenna placement) was depressing. Still ELTs managed to save
lives, including mine. The newer GPS augmented 406 MHz system is much more
effective, quickly providing a location measured in meters.
<< There are a lot of ways to let folks know when and if you need
assistance. >>
Disagree. My Alaska crash occurred about 150 miles from any human
habitation. My Idaho mountain crash was over in 15 sec. In the meantime, I was
a
little busy to let anyone know anything. Although I was flying with two
other aircraft, they were unable to get our accurate location to Search &
Rescue. Our cell phone got through to 911 long enough to let them know there
were survivors but not long enough to provide our accurate location. Our
121.5 MHz ELT gave them a location 5 miles in error. But when they got in
the neighborhood the ELT did help a little in narrowing our location. The
moral, I want as many ways as possible to ask for assistance and help
Search & Rescue determine our location.
<< I think each pilot should be able to make that decision himself or
herself. >>
Of course, this is a political statement not an aviation safety statement
of fact. But given human nature, mandates are not always bad. Sort of
like forced automobile liability insurance.
Tom Kuffel
Message 9
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| Subject: | Expanded horizons for the List? |
From: rayj <raymondj@frontiernet.net>
Subject: Marketing suggestion
Greetings Bob,
As a member of your list I have benefited greatly from the exchanges
centered around aircraft electrical system design and operation. I
expect to start on my plane this summer and will, I'm sure, be asking
questions about my specific build.
We're all Looking forward to being of assistance!
The reason I write it to let you know how valuable the information on
the list has been to me in the design and wiring of my boat's
electrical system. The parallels between aircraft and boats are
many. Wood, Al, and composite construction. 12V operation and the
need to be frugal with available power. A host of expensive
instruments. A strong desire for robust and reliable operation. A
fire at sea or the loss of power in bad weather, while not quite as
threatening as the same events in an aircraft, will still make for a
bad day. Corrosion is a bigger problem in boats.
I don't know if you have considered expanding into this market but I
wanted to let you know how much overlap there is. I have been
involved in boating on and off since my teen years and held a Coast
Guard O.U.P.V. license for the the Great Lakes, Inland Waterway, and
Navigable Rivers for 10 years.
There is a great "giving away" of knowledge happening everywhere.
One notable endeavor can be viewed at http://www.khanacademy.org/
The AeroElectric List is a mature institution with a lot
of talents on board. It's unlikely that we achieve the standing
of Khan Academy but then, you never know. I've been
pondering this phenomenon and exploring ways that I might
expand my participation. I even have a new tablet and video
capture program I'm learning to use. So Ray, your suggestion
is more timely than you know.
Your point is well taken and I would point out that
except for the devices unique to aircraft (transponders
and altitude encoders) most of what we discuss here is
common to the full range of vehicles, each with it's own
mission, design goals and environmental stresses. In
airplanes we may be talking about the range from ultra-lights
to LA-IVP with all the goodies. On wheels it might be dirt-bikes
to an off-road working or rescue machine. Then of course, there
are things that float.
The nice thing is that the laws of physics and the conveniences
of modern materials are applicable everywhere. Further,
there are many techniques and design situations that are
common in all vehicular disciplines. Corrosion for airplanes
based near oceans is just as vexing as aboard a boat.
I have no objections to owner/operators of other vehicles
joining us here on the List. There's a lot of opportunity
for a cross-pollination between interests (indeed, my first
flyable GPS was purchased from a BoatUS catalog!).
Please encourage anyone with vehicular electrics questions
(or discoveries to share) to join us here on the List. While
airplanes brought us all together in the first place, herding
electrons gives us cause to stay together. I would make that
suggestion to all other List members as well. We could
expand that offer to the younger 'students of the electrical
arts' as well. The way you add value to knowledge is to
expand on its utilization. The best ideas in the universe
have no value until somebody puts them to good use . . .
Once again, thanks for the work you do on the list.
My pleasure sir.
Bob . . .
Message 10
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| Subject: | Expanded horizons (automotive question) |
Let me be the first with the "Expanded Horizons" to ask an automotive
question regarding fault code readers.
I have a 1996 GMC Sonoma, Similar to the Chevrolet S-10. My brake line
rusted through and dumped the brake fluid, resulting in air entering the ABS
unit. After bleeding the ABS module I still have the ABS light illuminated.
Brakes seem to work fine but no ABS. I purchased an inexpensive code
reader, but it seems that this works on almost all GM vehicles starting at
1996, but would you believe, not mine! Anyone have experience with this
problem, including how to fix it, and where I might, if needed, get a code
reader? Any help appreciated.
Message 11
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We here north of the 49th must have an ELT on every certified aircraft as
part of the MEL (minimum equipment list) ELTs are allowed to be removed for
normal scheduled maintenance or whenever the unit does not pass inspection.
The units may be removed for repair that usually means replacement of the
batteries (C size on the old ELTs) for a period not to exceed 90 days.
Even though our countries are close in many ways one major difference is the
fact we have enormous tracts of totally desolate land and flying over that
kind of territory without some kind of back up is totally crazy. As I said
the one part, aside of huge cost, I don't like about the 406mHz Elts is the
fact they are all digitally assigned to a specific aircraft and there is no
vehicle in place that allows the owner to swap one out. It is also illegal
to install one into an aircraft that it is not assigned to. In my mind the
should have a loaned code available that AMOs, FBOs and the like can put in
aircraft while service is being done on the original ELT.
Years ago a bizjet went off the end of the runway at Churchill Falls,
Labrador, in a snowstorm. For some reason the local tower thought the plane
had overshot and gone on to an alternate airport but because of the terrain
decided to start a search immediately. Within hours it became apparent they
did the right thing because a check with other airports in range of the
plane turned up negative. They searched the area for two weeks by
helicopter and snowmobile. No results. Six months later a landing plane
noticed a glint on the glide path and reporte4d it to the tower. They had
found the jet. The passengers all froze to death. The ELT of that plane
had been legally removed for scheduled maintenance. Had it been there all
the passengers and crew would have been saved. While it is true that today
we have all sorts of GPS and digital phones sometimes it is still better to
have the tried and true systems as a backup. While I agree that today there
are more modes of following aircraft it does give some comfort to have the
ELT as a backup.
Noel
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
BobsV35B@aol.com
Sent: March 23, 2012 1:05 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ELT Antenna
Good Evening Noel,
What country are you discussing?
In the USA, every airline pilot regularly flies without an ELT.
Personally, I would be happy to do so if it were not an FAA requirement. I
do not feel one whit more secure since we were forced to install the ELT.
There are a lot of ways to let folks know when and if you need assistance. I
think each pilot should be able to make that decision himself or herself.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 3/22/2012 8:36:50 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
noelloveys@yahoo.ca writes:
In this country any appliance on a certified aircraft with certain
exceptions has to be installed by or checked by a certified AME ( aircraft
maintenance engineer ) and the installation has to be documented in the
airframe log book and noted if there is a separate log book for the
appliance.
One of the things I do not like about the new ELT is that aircraft cannot
borrow another ELT while one is out having scheduled service done. In the
past the AMO I worked for had a "loaner" ELT that we would put in aircraft
so they wouldn't have to fly without one... Which is legal for up to 90
days.
In fact even a licensed AME is not allowed to change the batteries on an ELT
it has to be done by an approved Avionics tech or an approved avionics shop.
Amateur built aircraft are another quintal of fish... They don't even have
to carry an ELT. Mind I don't know anyone who is stupid enough to fly this
land without one.
Noel
Message 12
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Here in Newfoundland we have forced liability insurance too. The one law I
don't agree with is the seatbelt law and I onluy disagree with that one for
open cars that do not have roll bars.
Noel
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of The
Kuffels
Sent: March 23, 2012 2:15 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ELT Antenna
Old Bob says:
<< Noel, .. What country are you discussing? >>
His email address is Canada. His description fits what little I know of
Canada's regulatory environment.
<< I do not feel one whit more secure since we were forced to install the
ELT. >>
This sentiment conflicts with my direct, personal experience. In Alaska in
the 1970s when ELTs were first forced upon us, the false activation rate
(especially in very cold weather) and the failure to activate rate (mostly
due to poor antenna placement) was depressing. Still ELTs managed to save
lives, including mine. The newer GPS augmented 406 MHz system is much more
effective, quickly providing a location measured in meters.
<< There are a lot of ways to let folks know when and if you need
assistance. >>
Disagree. My Alaska crash occurred about 150 miles from any human
habitation. My Idaho mountain crash was over in 15 sec. In the meantime, I
was a little busy to let anyone know anything. Although I was flying with
two other aircraft, they were unable to get our accurate location to Search
& Rescue. Our cell phone got through to 911 long enough to let them know
there were survivors but not long enough to provide our accurate location.
Our 121.5 MHz ELT gave them a location 5 miles in error. But when they got
in the neighborhood the ELT did help a little in narrowing our location.
The moral, I want as many ways as possible to ask for assistance and help
Search & Rescue determine our location.
<< I think each pilot should be able to make that decision himself or
herself. >>
Of course, this is a political statement not an aviation safety statement of
fact. But given human nature, mandates are not always bad. Sort of like
forced automobile liability insurance.
Tom Kuffel
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Expanded horizons (automotive question) |
At 12:55 PM 3/23/2012, you wrote:
><mrspudandcompany@verizon.net>
>
>Let me be the first with the "Expanded Horizons" to ask an automotive
>question regarding fault code readers.
>
>I have a 1996 GMC Sonoma, Similar to the Chevrolet S-10. My brake line
>rusted through and dumped the brake fluid, resulting in air entering the ABS
>unit. After bleeding the ABS module I still have the ABS light illuminated.
>Brakes seem to work fine but no ABS. I purchased an inexpensive code
>reader, but it seems that this works on almost all GM vehicles starting at
>1996, but would you believe, not mine! Anyone have experience with this
>problem, including how to fix it, and where I might, if needed, get a code
>reader? Any help appreciated.
A 'tad' bit outside the herding of electrons
but I think you can find legacy code readers
on eBay. It seems likely that with contaminated
electronics, the device is probably toast
and needs replacement. If push comes to shove,
you can pay the tariff for a local read of
the codes . . . but it will probably confirm
what seems most likely.
Bob . . .
Message 14
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Advantage is less noise from the high voltage lines running the length of yo
ur airplane. Also your strobes are independent of one another, if you loos
e one power supply your other strobes still work.
Tim Perry
On Mar 23, 2012, at 12:16 PM, Jared Yates <email@jaredyates.com> wrote:
> The remote units are likely going to be a heavier installation, and they w
ill require some sort of mechanism for synchronization if there is to be any
.
>
> On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 8:05 AM, stearman456 <warbirds@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> What is the advantage to having local power supplies for your strobe light
s vs a single, central,power supply - or vice versa? The two strobe systems
I'm considering are identical (lights, output) apart from three power suppl
ies vs one.
>
> Dan
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369203#369203
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ==========
> -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-L
ist
> ==========
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> le, List Admin.
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 15
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3/23/2012
Hello Noel, Thank you for your most courteous reply. You wrote: "New 406
mHz. ELTs are identified to specific aircraft in specific configuration."
This is a very important point that you make. Each of those ELT's is also
identified to a specific Owner/Operator of that specific aircraft and to a
specific Primary and Alternate 24-Hour Emergency Contact associated with
that specific ELT and aircraft along with communication information for all
of those individuals. See here:
http://www.nmea.org/Assets/elt%20406%20registration%20and%20renewal.pdf
The purpose of that contact information is to permit rapid communication
with one of those individuals should an emergency signal be received by a
satellite to confirm that the signal is not a false alarm.
Also note that it is possible on that form to submit a Change of ELT
Information or Ownership and to do it fairly quickly online at:
www.beaconregistration.noaa.gov
This would permit a fairly flexible and timely means of swapping a 406 Mhz
ELT from one aircraft to another if that became a need and one complied with
all provisions of the registration requirements.
'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to
gather and understand knowledge."
===================================================
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 2:35 PM
Subject: RE: ELT Antenna
> My apologies sometimes I forget that most people on the lists are not
> Canadian and there are several differences in our aviation procedures.
>
> In Canada an aircraft flown commercially must have an ELT on board.
> However
> I'm not sure it has to be turned on. An ELT may be removed for servicing
> for up to 90 days.
>
> New 406 mHz. ELTs are identified to specific aircraft in specific
> configuration. One of the new ELT cannot be taken out of one aircraft and
> put in another. The identifier code on the ELT is "Married "to a specific
> airplane. My understanding is if a large plane is converted from
> passenger
> to cargo it must be refitted with a new ELT as there is no vehicle to do
> this.
>
> I do like to keep up with what is going on south of the 49th so I will
> have
> a look through your link and at the same time I'll have another look
> through
> CARs, Canada's equivalent to FARs.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Noel
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