---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 04/03/12: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:20 AM - Re: Converting to externally reg alternator (eschlanser) 2. 08:56 AM - Re: Troubleshooting Field Breaker (user9253) 3. 09:51 AM - Re: Troubleshooting Field Breaker (Jim P) 4. 10:26 AM - Re: Converting to externally reg alternator (eschlanser) 5. 10:54 AM - Re: Re: Troubleshooting Field Breaker (mapratherid) 6. 11:48 AM - Re: Troubleshooting Field Breaker (Jim P) 7. 01:56 PM - Re: please help me...........Rick (Rick Lark) 8. 02:12 PM - Re: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator (Charlie England) 9. 03:21 PM - Re: Troubleshooting Field Breaker (user9253) 10. 06:01 PM - IR alternator in Z-13/8 (rvtach) 11. 06:34 PM - Re: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator (B Tomm) 12. 06:37 PM - Re: Troubleshooting Field Breaker (Jim P) 13. 09:09 PM - Re: Troubleshooting Field Breaker (user9253) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:20:24 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator From: "eschlanser" Roger or forum users, I cannot seem to open the attachment. It appears on my screen as a winmail.dat file rather than an adobe pdf or other file that my computer can open. I am seeing the file in the aeroelectric forum at the matronics lists. Thanks for any help, Eric mrspudandcompany(at)veriz wrote: > Yes but, > I seem to recall a modification procedure that did not > require machining any part of the case. It also did (as I recall) have you > completely remove the internal regulator. So the process of conversion was > different as I recall. All accomplished with simple hand tools. Perhaps > Bob will chime in with his recommendation. > > See attached! Is this, perhaps the one you > are looking for? > > > Roger Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369945#369945 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:56:18 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Troubleshooting Field Breaker From: "user9253" > the field breaker is now popping as soon as the alternator switch is closed If I understand correctly, you are turning on the alternator switch AFTER the engine is running. What happens if the alternator switch is turned on BEFORE starting the engine? Does the breaker still pop? I suggest that the terminals on the voltage regulator be examined carefully to be sure that there is a good tight connection with no corrosion. Also check that the regulator is well grounded to the system ground bus with no corrosion. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369951#369951 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:51:21 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Troubleshooting Field Breaker From: "Jim P" I've actually tried both ways, and both pop the breaker. The contacts on the LR-3 look good, and all the grounds are good. I did pull the regulator if B&C wanted me to sent it in. If not, I may just create jumpers to confirm wiring, but there's always the possibility that the alternator would be bad I suspect. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369957#369957 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:26:21 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator From: "eschlanser" Got it in a PM. Thanks, Eric eschlanser wrote: > Roger or forum users, > I cannot seem to open the attachment. It appears on my screen as a winmail.dat file rather than an adobe pdf or other file that my computer can open. I am seeing the file in the aeroelectric forum at the matronics lists. > Thanks for any help, > Eric > > > mrspudandcompany(at)veriz wrote: > > Yes but, > > I seem to recall a modification procedure that did not > > require machining any part of the case. It also did (as I recall) have you > > completely remove the internal regulator. So the process of conversion was > > different as I recall. All accomplished with simple hand tools. Perhaps > > Bob will chime in with his recommendation. > > > > See attached! Is this, perhaps the one you > > are looking for? > > > > > > Roger > Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369964#369964 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:54:41 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Troubleshooting Field Breaker From: mapratherid Seems like the field is shorted. If you disconnect the field wire from the alternator, does it still trip the breaker? I'm suspicious of a wiring fault. Or possibly a fault in the alternator. As another asked, does it only trip with the engine running? Matt- On Apr 3, 2012, at 10:49 AM, "Jim P" wrote: > > I've actually tried both ways, and both pop the breaker. The contacts on the LR-3 look good, and all the grounds are good. I did pull the regulator if B&C wanted me to sent it in. > > If not, I may just create jumpers to confirm wiring, but there's always the possibility that the alternator would be bad I suspect. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369957#369957 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:48:42 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Troubleshooting Field Breaker From: "Jim P" Yes, only when the engine is running. It does not trip with battery, and it didn't trip with a power supply attached to the B-lead with engine shut-down. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369967#369967 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:56:38 PM PST US From: Rick Lark Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: please help me...........Rick Thx Bob - Rick- - #40956 Southampton, Ont --- On Tue, 4/3/12, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: please help me...........Rick Received: Tuesday, April 3, 2012, 2:42 AM s.bob@aeroelectric.com> At 08:34 PM 4/2/2012, you wrote: > Guys, sorry about the message below.- It appears someone somehow hijack ed my yahoo account.- I've changed the password for now and depending on what the Yahoo administration says I may change the whole account.- The w orst thing about this is that all my saved emails containing tips/advise ha ve been deleted. Hopefully Yahoo can restore them. > Again, sorry about this.............Rick - Nothing to be sorry for on our account. It's unfortunate - that some individuals have to exist so distant from - the boundaries of honorable behavior. Decades ago they - had to get 'up close' . . . nowadays, they can work their - evil from anywhere on the planet. Our condolences . . . and - best wishes for a graceful recovery. - Bob . . . le, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:12:58 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator Someone recently sent me off-the-shelf part numbers that can be used to convert some Nippon Denso alternators to external regulation with bolt-on parts. I don't have time now to dig up the info, but if you're not in a hurry, I'll try to find it within the next few days. Charlie On 04/02/2012 12:39 PM, B Tomm wrote: > > Wow, I didn't think my question would hit such a sensitive nerve. In > the same league as a primer war. > > My question was about the "how" but many of you are interested in > discussing the "why". Here's where I'm coming from. > > For better or worse, the decision was made a long time ago to > configure my electrical system for external regulation ala Bob M. Now > I'm getting close to needing an alternator and looking at the > options. I will have an SD-8 backup alternator and therefore don't > consider the main alternator as being required to be of the absolute > best quality. It just needs to have a failure mode that does not > affect other more expensive electronics. As far as I know, there are > no "100% guaranteed to work for ever" alternators anyway. So my > theory is to have a spare in the hangar ready to go or to be brought > to me when/if a failure occurs. I'm thinking I would rather have two > $100 alternators that I have converted to external regulation and > tested than one $595 alternator and no spare. > > When, converting two to external regulation I will learn something and > decide whether I can do this when away from my regular tool box. I > may be too far from my spare and have to buy an internally regulated > one and convert it out in the field. I seem to recall that it's not > too difficult of a process. More like a removal of unnecessary > parts. Something I am usually pretty good at. I plan on keeping some > maintenance papers in the plane's tool bag anyway, one of which could > be the alternator process. > > My thoughts only. You may have another opinion and that's fine with me. > > Bevan > > "I like to build and fix things" > > > _____________________________________________ > *From: * owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [_mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com_] *On Behalf Of* > ROGER & JEAN CURTIS > > *Sent: * Monday, April 02, 2012 9:12 AM > *To: * aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > *Subject: * RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Converting to externally reg > alternator > > > Does the crowbar module not offer enough protection? With a VFR day > only, electronic ignition setup, minimal elctrogizmos, does not the > reserve battery power give a safe reserve? > > Bob Verwey > > > The Conventional crowbar module is used with the external > regulator. The internal regulator does not work with the > external crowbar circuit. > > Roger > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:21:43 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Troubleshooting Field Breaker From: "user9253" Since the breaker does not trip when the engine is off (with the alternator switch on), that tells me that the alternator is good and that the regulator and O.V. are not shorted to ground. Going by the symptoms that you described, I see 3 possible causes listed in order of likelihood: 1. High resistance in the voltage regulator sense circuit. The Alternator switch is one suspect. 2. Defective voltage regulator. 3. Defective over-voltage protection. Let's test for high resistance. With the engine off and the master and alternator switches on, connect a 35 watt 12V lamp between the regulator Sense terminal and the regulator case (not aircraft ground). The lamp should illuminate. Measure the voltage across the lamp. It should be close to the battery voltage. If the voltage across the lamp is low, then measure at various points in the Voltage Regulator Sense circuit until the location of the voltage drop is found. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369981#369981 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:01:54 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: IR alternator in Z-13/8 From: "rvtach" Bob- All this recent talk about internal and external regulated alternators has reminded me that once upon a time (several years ago at an Aeroelectric Seminar in Prescott, AZ) you said that you were fairly close to coming up with a way to gracefully integrate an internally regulated alternator into a Z-13/8, or other AEC, system. The solution you described at that time would allow total control of the alternator by the pilot and would allow use of a crowbar OV protection. I've lost track of where this eventually wound up and was wondering anything ever came of this effort. Or did it simply become apparrent that just using the ER alternator is the way to go? I have an IR alternator and am trying to decide whether to just use it, replace it with an off the shelf ER alternator or have the local alternator modify it to ER. The Plane Power alternator would be an option as it seems like a well thought out piece of equipment but kind of lot of money for an alternator. I try to keep up with the rest of the class so I don't have to ask questions that have already been discussed but I haven't been able to find the answer to this question in the archives and I don't remember reading anything about this specific question. I appreciate any information about this and I will always be grateful for everything I have learned in your school Bob. Thanks for everything. -------- Jim McChesney Tucson, AZ RV-7A Finishing Kit Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369987#369987 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:34:05 PM PST US From: "B Tomm" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator Thanks Charlie, I have found the info I was initially looking for (and then some) but what you're talking about is very interesting too. I would be interested whenever you have the time to dig it up. Bevan _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie England Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2012 2:08 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator Someone recently sent me off-the-shelf part numbers that can be used to convert some Nippon Denso alternators to external regulation with bolt-on parts. I don't have time now to dig up the info, but if you're not in a hurry, I'll try to find it within the next few days. Charlie On 04/02/2012 12:39 PM, B Tomm wrote: Wow, I didn't think my question would hit such a sensitive nerve. In the same league as a primer war. My question was about the "how" but many of you are interested in discussing the "why". Here's where I'm coming from. For better or worse, the decision was made a long time ago to configure my electrical system for external regulation ala Bob M. Now I'm getting close to needing an alternator and looking at the options. I will have an SD-8 backup alternator and therefore don't consider the main alternator as being required to be of the absolute best quality. It just needs to have a failure mode that does not affect other more expensive electronics. As far as I know, there are no "100% guaranteed to work for ever" alternators anyway. So my theory is to have a spare in the hangar ready to go or to be brought to me when/if a failure occurs. I'm thinking I would rather have two $100 alternators that I have converted to external regulation and tested than one $595 alternator and no spare. When, converting two to external regulation I will learn something and decide whether I can do this when away from my regular tool box. I may be too far from my spare and have to buy an internally regulated one and convert it out in the field. I seem to recall that it's not too difficult of a process. More like a removal of unnecessary parts. Something I am usually pretty good at. I plan on keeping some maintenance papers in the plane's tool bag anyway, one of which could be the alternator process. My thoughts only. You may have another opinion and that's fine with me. Bevan "I like to build and fix things" _____________________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [ mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ROGER & JEAN CURTIS Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 9:12 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator Does the crowbar module not offer enough protection? With a VFR day only, electronic ignition setup, minimal elctrogizmos, does not the reserve battery power give a safe reserve? Bob Verwey The Conventional crowbar module is used with the external regulator. The internal regulator does not work with the external crowbar circuit. Roger ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:37:26 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Troubleshooting Field Breaker From: "Jim P" I've done some of that troubleshooting. With the Battery / ALT ON at 12.21V, I actually get 12.20 at the OV sense terminal and 10.52V out of terminal #4 which is the field line. Bus voltage into the regulator is 11.93. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369995#369995 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:41 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Troubleshooting Field Breaker From: "user9253" http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Regulators/Zeftronics/R15V00_Ford_Style_Reulator.pdf 0.27 volts dropped between the OV sense terminal and VR sense terminal seems high. There could be a loose connection. A fully charged battery should have a voltage of about 12.8 volts. Attached is a circuit to test the OV protection. If the aircraft battery voltage is 12.2, connect two flashlight batteries in series with the OV ground wire. Note the polarity of the flashlight batteries. I would not expect the OV protection to trip the circuit breaker at 15.4 volts (12.2 + 1.6 + 1.6). If the OV does trip the breaker, then the OV needs to be adjusted to a higher trip point (16v). Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370003#370003 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/ov_test_102.jpg ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.