---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 04/13/12: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:21 AM - Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft (gregmchugh) 2. 07:09 AM - Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft (gregmchugh) 3. 07:16 AM - Re: Looking for suggestions (user9253) 4. 10:34 AM - Re: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft (Jeff Luckey) 5. 11:51 AM - Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft (gregmchugh) 6. 12:35 PM - Re: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft (Jeff Luckey) 7. 01:47 PM - Re: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft (Daniel Hooper) 8. 03:01 PM - Re: Re: Looking for suggestions (John MacCallum) 9. 03:38 PM - Re: Re: Looking for suggestions (Dan Billingsley) 10. 04:29 PM - Re: Looking for suggestions (user9253) 11. 04:38 PM - Re: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft (Ken) 12. 08:26 PM - Re: Looking for suggestions (maca2790) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:21:59 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft From: "gregmchugh" Bob, Could you post a higher resolution version of the schematic that you provided in a previous post. It is hard for me to make out the details. The PICkit 1 Flash Starter Kit arrived from Microchip and I cleared some space on the bench, set up a PC to use for software development, connected the starter kit via USB (the LED's flashed as they should), loaded the Starter Kit software from the CD provided (this does the downloads to the PIC12F675 provided on the kit board). I also downloaded the latest Microchip MPLAB IDE (version 8.84) from the web (the CD provided is an older version). Checked that the download worked by loading the first tutorial lesson code and that seemed to work just fine. All-in-all no real problems getting things up and running. I will write up a short tutorial on how to get started for anyone who wants to do it. I will take a look at the tutorial lessons in the next few days. In fact the first tutorial covers switch debouncing and controlling LED's so I expect we have the core for the wig-wag software right there. Greg McHugh Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370671#370671 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:02 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft From: "gregmchugh" Raymond, I second what Daniel says. I agree that C should be your next step if you have gotten your feet wet with BASIC on Stamp or PICAXE. C is pretty much the language used for most embedded software. >From a software engineering point of view it would have been nice if another language had come out as the leader. It is easy to get in a lot of trouble with C but most of the examples you see in tutorials for beginners keep you away from the problems by keeping the code well structured and avoiding the parts of C that are error prone. But don' be surprised when your get some unexpected behavior. It only takes a small typing error to get some amazing results in C. I also agree that learning at least one assembly language is useful for embedded software developers. In addition to improving your understanding of what is really going on with the processor, there are times when assembly language is useful (e.g., low level device drivers, high speed signal processing) even when the majority of the code is in C. But for the vast majority of applications C will get your job done quickly and it will generate fast enough code to get the job done. I also agree on the recommendation for Arduino. It provides the most widespread infrastructure support. The development environment for C on Arduino is easy install, easy to use, and well proven for the novice. There aren't too many applications that I can think of that haven't been covered by an Arduino example already in existence. Sparkfun and Adafruit are reliable suppliers in the US and the prices are reasonable. Arduino compatible shields (daughterboards) are available to interface with everything you can think of and ARM based motherboards that are compatible with the shields are available when you want to give that a try for even more processing power. There is nothing that has the infrastructure in place like Arduino. If am surprised that no one seems to have adapted one of the Arduino autopilots for hobby drones to use in an experimental aircraft. Maybe someone has but I have not heard of it as yet. I worked on the software for the navigation, guidance, and control systems on the original Tomahawk cruise missile and the capability most of the Arduino autopilots goes way beyond any of what was done there. They are called "experimental" aircraft but this is something not recommended for beginners. Kids, don't try this at home... But, it is hard to beat Arduino for developing embedded control of just about anything... Greg McHugh Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370681#370681 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:16:35 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Looking for suggestions From: "user9253" > (I still find it strange that the whine goes away when I turn on the E-Switch Since the whine is still there after re-routing the fat wires, it seems as if the whine is filtered out when the current passes through the battery on its way from the alternator to the radio via the E-Bus switch. The easiest solution to the whine problem is to do nothing except to leave the E-Bus switch on. Doing so will not hurt anything unless the pilot forgets to shut it off at the end of a flight or forgets to shut it off in the event of smoke in the cockpit. Another possible solution is to install a filter in series with the radio or in series with the E-Bus diode. Or a large capacitor connected from the Radio 12V supply to ground might help. As for the radio fuse blowing, what type of fuse is it? The old automotive glass type of fuses are prone to fail. Even if the fuse is the ATC / ATO type, I would not be too concerned unless the fuse blows a second time. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370682#370682 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:34:40 AM PST US From: "Jeff Luckey" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft I will 3rd that. C is the way to go. It takes some effort to move from BASIC but it is worth it. Get the de facto C bible: "The C Programming Language" by Kernighan & Ritchie. I would also like to suggest that people look at the AVR line of uControllers from Atmel. I started many years ago on Parallax & pretty quickly needed more performance. Then I latched onto PIC because they are very popular in industry & I had some acquaintances who were professional electronic types, and they were using them. The thing I did not like about PIC was that you needed different programming hardware, software, techniques for different families of their uCons. I like to use the little 8-16 pin devices & they were difficult to get programmed in C. On the very small PICs, they recommend you program them in assembler. (this may have changed by now) So I began exploring AVR http://www.atmel.com/products/microcontrollers/avr/default.aspx and now primarily use them. I like: 1. One programming environment for their entire family 2. Their Tiny(tm) chips are programmed in C 3. All ATMEL development tools are free & pretty good 4. Very good programmer/debuggers are available for around $100. Aside from those differences, the product lines among uController manufacturers are surprisingly similar. So my logic at the time was, as a newbie, I did not want to go spend a couple of hundred dollars on programming tools (both software & hardware) only to find out later that the tools did not support the chip I had chosen or that I needed another emulator, etc. It seemed that Atmel made that decision much safer because the software tools are free. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gregmchugh Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 06:06 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft Raymond, I second what Daniel says. I agree that C should be your next step if you have gotten your feet wet with BASIC on Stamp or PICAXE. C is pretty much the language used for most embedded software. >From a software engineering point of view it would have been nice if another language had come out as the leader. It is easy to get in a lot of trouble with C but most of the examples you see in tutorials for beginners keep you away from the problems by keeping the code well structured and avoiding the parts of C that are error prone. But don' be surprised when your get some unexpected behavior. It only takes a small typing error to get some amazing results in C. I also agree that learning at least one assembly language is useful for embedded software developers. In addition to improving your understanding of what is really going on with the processor, there are times when assembly language is useful (e.g., low level device drivers, high speed signal processing) even when the majority of the code is in C. But for the vast majority of applications C will get your job done quickly and it will generate fast enough code to get the job done. I also agree on the recommendation for Arduino. It provides the most widespread infrastructure support. The development environment for C on Arduino is easy install, easy to use, and well proven for the novice. There aren't too many applications that I can think of that haven't been covered by an Arduino example already in existence. Sparkfun and Adafruit are reliable suppliers in the US and the prices are reasonable. Arduino compatible shields (daughterboards) are available to interface with everything you can think of and ARM based motherboards that are compatible with the shields are available when you want to give that a try for even more processing power. There is nothing that has the infrastructure in place like Arduino. If am surprised that no one seems to have adapted one of the Arduino autopilots for hobby drones to use in an experimental aircraft. Maybe someone has but I have not heard of it as yet. I worked on the software for the navigation, guidance, and control systems on the original Tomahawk cruise missile and the capability most of the Arduino autopilots goes way beyond any of what was done there. They are called "experimental" aircraft but this is something not recommended for beginners. Kids, don't try this at home... But, it is hard to beat Arduino for developing embedded control of just about anything... Greg McHugh Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370681#370681 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:51:51 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft From: "gregmchugh" Jeff, On the PIC vs AVR question I am also getting the feeling that PIC may not be the best long-term choice. Bob has some PIC's in stock and has a board designed so I have no issue with supporting a software application for the wig-wag on that module. As I noted before I have no real experience with PIC, or with AVR for that matter, but I do see that PIC development tools are not universal. When I looked at adding a PICkit 3 Debug Express (their $45 low end debugging tool) to get real time debugging I found that I would have to also add an interface board ($9) then a debug board for each of the chips that do not have onboard debug support. The interface board essentially has a version of the chip in a larger DIP package to include the debugging support. Each of these goes for $25. So, as you change processors in the PIC line you are looking at additional cost for development tools. If Atmel works around this with universal tools then I think that is a significant plus in their favor. Not sure if the consistency between the general AVR chips and Arduino plays into this. Similar to PIC and PICAxe but not quite the same since Arduino runs compiled C code. Can a generic AVR chip be made Arduino compatible with the download of the Arduino Loader onto the chip? Greg McHugh Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370721#370721 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:35:19 PM PST US From: "Jeff Luckey" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft Greg, I haven't had the time to play w/ Arduinos (but I know many people who have). I believe that Arduinos are AVR chips just like PICAXE are PICs and accomplish the same mission (i.e. making the chip more user-friendly) but I think they suffer a performance hit, also. I'm not familiar enough w/ Arduino to answer your question. -Jeff -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gregmchugh Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 10:49 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft Jeff, On the PIC vs AVR question I am also getting the feeling that PIC may not be the best long-term choice. Bob has some PIC's in stock and has a board designed so I have no issue with supporting a software application for the wig-wag on that module. As I noted before I have no real experience with PIC, or with AVR for that matter, but I do see that PIC development tools are not universal. When I looked at adding a PICkit 3 Debug Express (their $45 low end debugging tool) to get real time debugging I found that I would have to also add an interface board ($9) then a debug board for each of the chips that do not have onboard debug support. The interface board essentially has a version of the chip in a larger DIP package to include the debugging support. Each of these goes for $25. So, as you change processors in the PIC line you are looking at additional cost for development tools. If Atmel works around this with universal tools then I think that is a significant plus in their favor. Not sure if the consistency between the general AVR chips and Arduino plays into this. Similar to PIC and PICAxe but not quite the same since Arduino runs compiled C code. Can a generic AVR chip be made Arduino compatible with the download of the Arduino Loader onto the chip? Greg McHugh Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370721#370721 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:47:04 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft From: Daniel Hooper Yes, check out this fairly minimal implementation here: http://arduino.cc/en/uploads/Main/Arduino-Pro-schematic.pdf U2 is the 3.3v or 5v regulator, depending on the board variant, and the odd-looking 0.1uF cap (C2) coupled to DTR allows the serial dongle to reset the chip. This makes programming the Arduino simpler with many of the USB<->serial TTL converters out there. (the chip must be reset to enter the bootloader, and if it times out before programming begins, it will not work. This allows the Arduino IDE to enter the bootloader/programming mode without requiring the user to press reset) Additionally, following the 'FTDI Basic' header convention at JP5 gives you several options for plug-and-play arduino programmers. (Make sure you pick the right one, either 3.3v or 5v!) And don't forget the ISP port JP3 so you can load the Arduino bootloader, or alternately load programs with AVR Studio and an AVR ISP device, without taking the chip out of the board. Overall, making an Arduino clone should be pretty straightforward. --Daniel On Apr 13, 2012, at 1:49 PM, gregmchugh wrote: > Can a > generic AVR chip be made Arduino compatible with > the download of the Arduino Loader onto the chip? > > Greg McHugh ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:01:52 PM PST US From: "John MacCallum" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Looking for suggestions The Whine is a function of ripple in the output Voltage of the Alternator and it is dependent on current flow. Depending on how you have wired things up when you turn the E bus on you are most likely reducing the current being drawn from the main Alternator. Less Current, less voltage sag from the Peak Voltage on the Main Buss and therefore less whine. I would re-visit all of the connections in the Main Buss to main alternator. The Voltage regulation needs to be checked as well. Is it Internal or external? Check the condition of the Alternator Slip rings and brushes if these are ok sometimes replacing the diode pack gets rid of a noisy diode. If no joy with the above try getting rid of it by installing an output capacitor and is this doesn't solve the problem investigate a high current Loss Pass filter arrangement with an Choke in series and the filter capacitor in Parallel. You can buy these high current chokes these days quite easily from a Car Audio specialist supply house. Cheers John MacCallum VH-DUU 41016 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of user9253 Sent: Saturday, 14 April 2012 12:12 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Looking for suggestions --> > (I still find it strange that the whine goes away when I turn on the > E-Switch Since the whine is still there after re-routing the fat wires, it seems as if the whine is filtered out when the current passes through the battery on its way from the alternator to the radio via the E-Bus switch. The easiest solution to the whine problem is to do nothing except to leave the E-Bus switch on. Doing so will not hurt anything unless the pilot forgets to shut it off at the end of a flight or forgets to shut it off in the event of smoke in the cockpit. Another possible solution is to install a filter in series with the radio or in series with the E-Bus diode. Or a large capacitor connected from the Radio 12V supply to ground might help. As for the radio fuse blowing, what type of fuse is it? The old automotive glass type of fuses are prone to fail. Even if the fuse is the ATC / ATO type, I would not be too concerned unless the fuse blows a second time. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370682#370682 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:38:08 PM PST US From: Dan Billingsley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Looking for suggestions Thanks Joe and John, that gives me some more to think about and tinker with. Unfortunately the alternator is tucked into the back of a Rotax 912S and the only way to get to it would be to pull the engine. Will try several of the other things first and then may just live with it for as long as I can. Appreciate the thoughts and suggestions, Dan ________________________________ From: user9253 Sent: Fri, April 13, 2012 7:11:55 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Looking for suggestions > (I still find it strange that the whine goes away when I turn on the E-Switch Since the whine is still there after re-routing the fat wires, it seems as if the whine is filtered out when the current passes through the battery on its way from the alternator to the radio via the E-Bus switch. The easiest solution to the whine problem is to do nothing except to leave the E-Bus switch on. Doing so will not hurt anything unless the pilot forgets to shut it off at the end of a flight or forgets to shut it off in the event of smoke in the cockpit. Another possible solution is to install a filter in series with the radio or in series with the E-Bus diode. Or a large capacitor connected from the Radio 12V supply to ground might help. As for the radio fuse blowing, what type of fuse is it? The old automotive glass type of fuses are prone to fail. Even if the fuse is the ATC / ATO type, I would not be too concerned unless the fuse blows a second time. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370682#370682 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:29:07 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Looking for suggestions From: "user9253" I was not thinking very clearly when I posted above that the alternator current passes through the battery on its way to the radio via the E-bus switch. The moving electrons get closer to the battery but do not pass through it. The filter suggested by John MacCallum is worth a try. I am curious to know if the diode has anything to do with the alternator whine. With the E-bus switch remaining off, short across the diode with a jumper to see if the whine goes away. The alternator on the Rotax 912 is actually a single phase dynamo with permanent magnets. Other than a wire breaking, there is not very much that can go wrong with it. The permanent magnets are integral with the flywheel. As long as the engine is running, so are the magnets spinning with the flywheel. The external voltage regulator also rectifies the AC output of the dynamo. It is not as easy to smooth out the AC ripple of the Rotax single phase dynamo compared to a 3 phase alternator. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370753#370753 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:38:21 PM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Open source product development for OBAM aircraft Another option is a $20. Atmel Butterfly demo board from digi-key. It is based on the Atmel 169 and has many on board capabilities to grow into. For example I use a Butterfly to monitor amphib gear position, hydraulic pressure, engine rpm and to trigger appropriate voice alerts. It also integrates EFI pulses and displays fuel flow and fuel remaining for me on its aphanumeric LCD display. Not bad for $20. of hardware. The butterfly comes with a 3 volt coin cell or it accepts external power and it also just needs a serial (RS232) cable to program it. Ken On 13/04/2012 4:45 PM, Daniel Hooper wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Daniel > Hooper > > Yes, check out this fairly minimal implementation here: > > http://arduino.cc/en/uploads/Main/Arduino-Pro-schematic.pdf > > U2 is the 3.3v or 5v regulator, depending on the board variant, and > the odd-looking 0.1uF cap (C2) coupled to DTR allows the serial > dongle to reset the chip. This makes programming the Arduino simpler > with many of the USB<->serial TTL converters out there. (the chip > must be reset to enter the bootloader, and if it times out before > programming begins, it will not work. This allows the Arduino IDE to > enter the bootloader/programming mode without requiring the user to > press reset) > > Additionally, following the 'FTDI Basic' header convention at JP5 > gives you several options for plug-and-play arduino programmers. > (Make sure you pick the right one, either 3.3v or 5v!) And don't > forget the ISP port JP3 so you can load the Arduino bootloader, or > alternately load programs with AVR Studio and an AVR ISP device, > without taking the chip out of the board. > > Overall, making an Arduino clone should be pretty straightforward. > > --Daniel > > On Apr 13, 2012, at 1:49 PM, gregmchugh wrote: > >> Can a generic AVR chip be made Arduino compatible with the download >> of the Arduino Loader onto the chip? >> >> Greg McHugh > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:26:22 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Looking for suggestions From: "maca2790" I'm not familiar with the Rotax Alternator/ Dynamo A Dynamo is a DC device that is self exciting but an Alternator can be either self exciting or externally excited. Don't short out the Diode because if it's a Alternator you will induce a dead short to ground. I just looked at the Circuit diagram. From the diagram it appears to be an Alternator. If Joe is correct with it being only single phase output then that is the source of the whine. The Ripple frequency will be twice the Alternators RPM. Probably exactly in the right range for it to be annoying in the Headset. Switching the external Alternator on reduces the current flow from the Internal and transfers it to the other. ( the one with the highest output Voltage wins) If you want to stick with the Internal Alternator you really don't have much choice but to try a Low Pass Filter as I suggested. I would leave the External Alternator on and run off it if it has the Capacity to do that. cheers John MacCallum Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370761#370761 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.