---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 05/17/12: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:54 AM - Re: Challenging and perplexing (fedico94@mchsi.com) 2. 12:03 PM - Anti Corrosive Zinc Paste (Henador Titzoff) 3. 12:37 PM - Re: Anti Corrosive Zinc Paste (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 04:02 PM - Re: Anti Corrosive Zinc Paste (Bob McCallum) 5. 04:02 PM - Re: Anti Corrosive Zinc Paste (Henador Titzoff) 6. 04:47 PM - Re: Anti Corrosive Zinc Paste (rayj) 7. 06:21 PM - Re: Challenging and perplexing (Henador Titzoff) 8. 06:47 PM - Re: Ignition Interference (messydeer) 9. 07:35 PM - Re: Re: Challenging and perplexing (Kelly McMullen) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:54:50 AM PST US From: fedico94@mchsi.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Challenging and perplexing Just a coincidence, but I need to replace my trolling motor battery. Amazing how cheap lead acid batteries have become. Carries Exide name but suspect maybe 3rd world, although we do have a battery plant for various labels includeing exide about 60 miles from here (65 dollars 12v deep cycle) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob McCallum" Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 10:02:16 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Challenging and perplexing Rather than buying a battery for just testing either borrow one or simply use your car battery (with jumper cables if necessary) for a test. Bob McC > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fedico94@mchsi.com > Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 10:37 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Challenging and perplexing > > > That was my first thought, but I would think a samll motor drawing 0.5 amps would > still come on with some life. I thought I would inquire first before buying a 25 dollar > garden tractor battery. If that works then I will upgrade to the 90 dollar PC680. I did > not see any problem with melted wires that supply ground at forest of tabs. A > grounding fault was another thought. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bob McCallum > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Sent: Wed, 16 May 2012 20:34:23 -0500 (CDT) > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Challenging and perplexing > > > > Sounds like your battery is dead. If the battery itself is only showing 12 > volts it is not properly charged, it should be significantly higher than > that (somewhere in the 12.4 volt range) and if the buss is showing only 10 > volts with minimal loads the battery is dead. > > Try substituting a fully charged known good battery just as a test and > probably all will be well. (Assuming everything used to work properly.) A > battery which has been discharged as low as 5.6 volts may not recover. > Discharging a battery that far can sometimes be a death sentence for the > battery. > > I just went to the garage and measured a battery which has been sitting > unused and uncharged for about 18 months and it still measures 12.18 volts > so if your freshly charged battery is only 12 volts it has serious issues. > > Bob McC > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- > > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fedico94@mchsi.com > > Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 8:29 PM > > To: Nuckolls, Robert > > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Challanging and perplexing > > > > > > I built my electrical system per Z-13/20. On 2 seperate occassions I > found that > > someone had moved the E-Bus Alt Mater Switch to engage the only the > Battery. The > > first time they turned on the strobes and ran the battery down and this > was quikly > > reversed with recharging the battery (PC680)from 5.6 volts. This occurred > a second > > time probably the radios left on. I had the battery recharged and it > shows 12V on the > > handheld meter. The E-bus Alt Master Switch will not allow the battery > solenoid to > > "click" on (purchased from B & C). I by passed this with an 18ga wire so > as to connect > > the battery positive terminal directly to the main power bus distribution > side of the > > battery contactor. I have 10 volts showing through the main power bus and > E-bus. I > > engaged the avionics fan from the e-bus by pushing in the CB and the fan > motor did > > not engage. I tried the same with the defroster fan at the switch and the > motor did > > not turn on. Both of these are low amperage and both showed ! > > 10 amps power with the handheld voltmeter downstream of the CB and > Switch. No > > electrical item (all that I have radios etc will not come on. > > > > I do not understand what the problem is ? The person who recharged my > battery said > > it recharged in 2 hours and only drew about 2 amps. > > > > > > _- > > > ==================================================== > > ====== > > _- > > > ==================================================== > > ====== > > _- > > > ==================================================== > > ====== > > _- > > > ==================================================== > > ====== > > > > > > > > > > > > > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:03:30 PM PST US From: Henador Titzoff Subject: AeroElectric-List: Anti Corrosive Zinc Paste Hi People,=0A=0AI would like to know what opinions you have on anti-corrosi ve zinc paste to make our connections more reliable. -Below is a link to an article on how ACZP helps make better connections by supplying sacrifici al zinc ions to stop or decrease corrosion at the push on connector's mecha nical linkage, which actually supplies the electrical connection. -The tw o pastes he mentions, Burndy Penetrox and Ideal Noalox, seem to do the job but are either too far on the right or left when it comes to consistency. -Do you guys think that ACZP will help with our normal push on connectors that we use in aviation, and/or do you have a product recommendation that is better than these two products? -I do have an application to wire ligh ts on a large road trailor, and I would like to use ACZP on those connectio ns, since road surfaces can be covered with all sorts of nasty corrosive su bstances. -Perhaps a ACZP can have a good application there to keep out a ll the nasties. -What do you guys think? -Eric, you're pretty good on surfaces corrodi ng. -What do you think? -You, too, Bob.=0A=0A- - -http://sw-em.co m/anti_corrosive_paste.htm=0A=0AThanks.=0A-=0AHenador Titzoff ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:37:11 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Anti Corrosive Zinc Paste >What do you think? You, too, Bob. > > >http://sw-em.com/anti_corrosive_paste.htm The article states in part: Why anyone would want to apply an insulating grease on a place where you want a good electrical connection is beyond me Simple: The "insulating grease" is not intended as an enhancement to conductivity but an protectant from environmental intrusion. Think of it as a kind of brush-on potting compound. . . . because if it got between the contacts, it would actually be degrading the connection, Okay, let's explore that statement. When you're mating up two metallic conductors, the ideal joint is represented by the crimped-on terminal where the two metals are deformed into each other by applying forces that cause the metals to fail in compression. I.e., they are literally molded into one piece. What's the compression strength of copper? Compare that to the compression strength of silicon grease. The idea that any grease would remain within the mate-up of the two metals is simply not supported by facts. Now, the extruded grease will remain in place just outside the volume where the two conductors became one. This residual grease that protects the joint from incursion of antagonistic moisture and gasses. A similar but less violent joining happens when you mash a terminal down on a stud. Where the two metals join, they conform to each other and the grease is extruded out of the joint. Irrespective of the 'magic' qualities of any joint additive for electrical connections, the joint NEVER gets any better than it was right after two, clean conductors were properly mated to each other for the first time. Whether it maintains that integrity is a not a function of keeping the electrons in but keeping the nasties out. Good ol' Dow Corning DC-4 or similar does that quite nicely. Back when I used to climb towers for a living, coax connectors were often mated after packing the contact cavity with DC-4. The stuff oozed out of the mated connector. Never saw or heard of a connector so-treated becoming electrically unreliable or mechanically corroded. To understand how that stuff works you need to imagine yourself 0.00001" tall, standing just outside a new joint and watching what happens as the ratchet handles are closed, the nut driver twisted or the connector back shell being spun down tight. No magic, just ordinary strength of materials. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:02:01 PM PST US From: Bob McCallum Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Anti Corrosive Zinc Paste Henador; Bear in mind that both of the proprietary products you mention are specifically manufactured for preventing the corrosion of Aluminium wiring connections so they should be particularly effective at keeping oxygen out of the joint. When making crimped connections on Aluminium Hydro transmission lines the process was to strip the insulation, brush the conductors bright with a stainless steel brush, dip the wire into the pot of Penetrox, and then install the connector with a hydraulic crimper. Never heard of a failure of any joints done this way even in the rather harsh environment of the mining industry. Bob McC _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Henador Titzoff Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 3:01 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Anti Corrosive Zinc Paste Hi People, I would like to know what opinions you have on anti-corrosive zinc paste to make our connections more reliable. Below is a link to an article on how ACZP helps make better connections by supplying sacrificial zinc ions to stop or decrease corrosion at the push on connector's mechanical linkage, which actually supplies the electrical connection. The two pastes he mentions, Burndy Penetrox and Ideal Noalox, seem to do the job but are either too far on the right or left when it comes to consistency. Do you guys think that ACZP will help with our normal push on connectors that we use in aviation, and/or do you have a product recommendation that is better than these two products? I do have an application to wire lights on a large road trailor, and I would like to use ACZP on those connections, since road surfaces can be covered with all sorts of nasty corrosive substances. Perhaps a ACZP can have a good application there to keep out all the nasties. What do you guys think? Eric, you're pretty good on surfaces corroding. What do you think? You, too, Bob. http://sw-em.com/anti_corrosive_paste.htm Thanks. Henador Titzoff ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:02:01 PM PST US From: Henador Titzoff Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Anti Corrosive Zinc Paste Well, he does admit that his ACZP is also an insulation grease, but it has zinc in it, acting as sacrificial anodes; therefore, the only difference is the zinc.=0A=0ADoes everyone agree that insulating grease will increase re liability due to its ability to keep corroding agents out? -If corroding agents start at the periphery of where the two metals are slammed together to form the conducting surface, the grease can serve to stop the corrosion before it eats away at the conducting surface. -Maybe I'm worried about a problem that doesn't exist, but I have an application where the slide on c onnectors are going to be exposed to highway conditions. over a period of y ears. -Maybe I should be using butt connectors with shrink tubing instead ?=0A-=0AHenador Titzoff=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" =0ATo: aeroelectr ic-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 3:36 PM=0ASubject: Re : AeroElectric-List: Anti Corrosive Zinc Paste=0A =0A=0AWhat do you think? - You,=0Atoo, Bob.=0A>=0A>----=0Ahttp://sw-em.com/anti_corrosive_ paste.htm=0A>=0AThe article states in part:=0A=0AWhy anyone would want to a pply an insulating grease on a place where you want a good electrical=0Acon nection is beyond me=0A=0ASimple: The "insulating grease" is not intended a s=0Aan enhancement=0Ato conductivity but an protectant from environmental i ntrusion.=0AThink of it as a kind of brush-on potting compound.=0A-- =0A=0A. . . because if it got=0Abetween the contacts, it would actually be degrading the connection, =0A=0AOkay, let's explore that statement. When yo u're mating up=0Atwo=0Ametallic conductors, the ideal joint is represented by the=0Acrimped-on terminal where the two metals are deformed into each=0A other by applying forces that cause the metals to fail in=0Acompression.=0A =0AI.e., they are literally molded into one piece. What's=0Athe compression strength of copper? Compare that to the compression=0Astrength of silicon grease. The idea that any grease would remain=0Awithin the mate-up of the t wo metals is simply not supported by=0Afacts. Now, the extruded grease will remain in place just outside=0Athe volume where the two conductors became one. This residual grease=0Athat protects the joint from incursion of antag onistic moisture=0Aand gasses.=0A=0AA similar but less violent joining happ ens when you mash a=0Aterminal down on a stud. Where the two metals join, t hey=0Aconform to each other and the grease is extruded out of the=0Ajoint. =0A=0AIrrespective of the 'magic' qualities of any joint additive=0Afor ele ctrical connections, the joint NEVER gets any better=0Athan it was right af ter two, clean conductors were properly=0Amated to each other for the first time. Whether it maintains=0Athat integrity is a not a function of keeping the electrons=0Ain but keeping the nasties out. Good ol' Dow Corning DC-4 or=0Asimilar does that quite nicely.=0A=0ABack when I used to climb towers for a living, coax connectors=0Awere often mated after packing the contact cavity with DC-4.=0AThe stuff oozed out of the mated connector. Never saw o r heard=0Aof a connector so-treated becoming electrically unreliable or=0Am echanically corroded.- To understand how that stuff works=0Ayou need to i magine yourself 0.00001" tall, standing just=0Aoutside a new joint and watc hing what happens as the ratchet=0Ahandles are closed, the nut driver twist ed or the connector=0Aback shell being spun down tight.=0A=0ANo magic, just ============= ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:47:12 PM PST US From: rayj Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Anti Corrosive Zinc Paste Myself and many of my associates use dielectric grease on our trailers and boats. Anecdotal experience has been that it is beneficial, and at a minimum, does no harm. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 05/17/2012 05:59 PM, Henador Titzoff wrote: > Well, he does admit that his ACZP is also an insulation grease, but it > has zinc in it, acting as sacrificial anodes; therefore, the only > difference is the zinc. > > Does everyone agree that insulating grease will increase reliability due > to its ability to keep corroding agents out? If corroding agents start > at the periphery of where the two metals are slammed together to form > the conducting surface, the grease can serve to stop the corrosion > before it eats away at the conducting surface. Maybe I'm worried about a > problem that doesn't exist, but I have an application where the slide on > connectors are going to be exposed to highway conditions. over a period > of years. Maybe I should be using butt connectors with shrink tubing > instead? > Henador Titzoff > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Thursday, May 17, 2012 3:36 PM > *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Anti Corrosive Zinc Paste > >> What do you think? You, too, Bob. >> >> http://sw-em.com/anti_corrosive_paste.htm > > The article states in part: > > *Why anyone would want to apply an /insulating/ grease on a place where > you want a good electrical connection is beyond m**e > > *Simple: The "insulating grease" is not intended as an enhancement > to conductivity but an protectant from environmental intrusion. > Think of it as a kind of brush-on potting compound. > > > *. . . because if it got between the contacts, it would actually be > degrading the connection, > > *Okay, let's explore that statement. When you're mating up two > metallic conductors, the ideal joint is represented by the > crimped-on terminal where the two metals are deformed into each > other by applying forces that cause the metals to fail in compression. > > I.e., they are literally molded into one piece. What's > the compression strength of copper? Compare that to the compression > strength of silicon grease. The idea that any grease would remain > within the mate-up of the two metals is simply not supported by > facts. Now, the extruded grease will remain in place just outside > the volume where the two conductors became one. This residual grease > that protects the joint from incursion of antagonistic moisture > and gasses. > > A similar but less violent joining happens when you mash a > terminal down on a stud. Where the two metals join, they > conform to each other and the grease is extruded out of the > joint. > > Irrespective of the 'magic' qualities of any joint additive > for electrical connections, the joint NEVER gets any better > than it was right after two, clean conductors were properly > mated to each other for the first time. Whether it maintains > that integrity is a not a function of keeping the electrons > in but keeping the nasties out. Good ol' Dow Corning DC-4 or > similar does that quite nicely. > > Back when I used to climb towers for a living, coax connectors > were often mated after packing the contact cavity with DC-4. > The stuff oozed out of the mated connector. Never saw or heard > of a connector so-treated becoming electrically unreliable or > mechanically corroded. To understand how that stuff works > you need to imagine yourself 0.00001" tall, standing just > outside a new joint and watching what happens as the ratchet > handles are closed, the nut driver twisted or the connector > back shell being spun down tight. > > No magic, just ordinary strength of materials. > > Bob . . . > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric--=========================================== > > * > > > > > > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:21:52 PM PST US From: Henador Titzoff Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Challenging and perplexing I wonder if the real reason lead acid batteries have become cheaper is beca use they aren't using virgin lead. -Recycling lead makes a lot of sense, but I've read that recycled lead makes for not only cheaper but also inferi or batteries - inferior meaning shorter battery life. -Does anyone on thi s list have actual statistical or analytic data/knowledge that suggests rec ycled lead makes for shorter battery lives?=0A=0AThanks.=0A-=0AHenador Ti a coincidence, but I need to replace my trolling motor battery. Amazing h ow cheap lead acid batteries have become. Carries Exide name but suspect m aybe 3rd world, although we do have a battery plant for various labels inc ludeing exide about 60 miles from here (65 dollars 12v deep cycle) ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:50 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Ignition Interference From: "messydeer" My SWR's all came in less than 2.1, thank Gawd! But wait, there's more. Here's what I posted on the MGL forum: While trying to sort out my ignition noise issues, I had some odd things happen with my V6. To isolate everything I could, the only wires connected to the V6 are the 4 audio jacks (which are for sure isolated from the panel), the ground (goes directly to the negative of a separate battery ), the supply (separate battery), and the antenna on top of the tailcone. The V6 is located in the middle of my Sonex panel, ~2' off the floor, 2' behind the firewall. I turn it on and get good reception. Start the engine and the reception vanishes. I can't even get the blasted ignition noise. Rebooting the V6 with the engine running doesn't do anything. Kill the engine and there's still no reception. Adjusting the squelch does nothing. And this is with the engine turned off after having run for a minute. The only thing that lets the V6 get reception again is to reboot it AFTER the engine is off. The antenna, when installed, did not have a ground fault. When a handheld is swapped out for the V6, it does just fine. Even if the antenna had a ground fault to the airframe, could that cause the V6 to lose reception? There's no ground route back to the V6. If so, then why doesn't the handheld behave the same way when it is connected to the same antenna? It works just fine with the same cable and antenna. Next time I'm at the airport, I'll connect a portable antenna to make sure there's no ground problem. Any other suggestions? -------- Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373257#373257 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:35:43 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Challenging and perplexing If you price aircraft batteries or name brand car batteries, the prices have about doubled in the last 5-6 yrs. 12V aircraft battery used to be a little over $100, now most are over $200. And Absorbed Glass Mat sealed batteries are now a little cheaper than the old wet acid batteries. On 5/17/2012 6:15 PM, Henador Titzoff wrote: > I wonder if the real reason lead acid batteries have become cheaper is > because they aren't using virgin lead. Recycling lead makes a lot of > sense, but I've read that recycled lead makes for not only cheaper but > also inferior batteries - inferior meaning shorter battery life. Does > anyone on this list have actual statistical or analytic data/knowledge > that suggests recycled lead makes for shorter battery lives? > > Thanks. > Henador Titzoff > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by:fedico94@mchsi.com > > Just a coincidence, but I need to replace my trolling motor battery. Amazing how cheap lead acid batteries have become. Carries Exide name but suspect maybe 3rd world, although we do have a battery plant for various labels includeing exide about 60 miles from here (65 dollars 12v deep cycle) > * > > > * ----- No virus found in this message. 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