AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Tue 05/29/12


Total Messages Posted: 15



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 06:35 AM - Re: Found it! (user9253)
     2. 06:35 AM - Re: Found it! (Eric M. Jones)
     3. 09:17 AM - Lithium aircraft batteries (Vern Little)
     4. 09:57 AM - Re: Found it! (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     5. 10:18 AM - Re: Re: Found it! (Dan Billingsley)
     6. 10:19 AM - Re: Re: Found it! (Tom Chapman)
     7. 10:21 AM - Re: Re: Found it! (Dan Billingsley)
     8. 10:28 AM - Re: Lithium aircraft batteries (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     9. 10:32 AM - Re: Re: Found it! (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    10. 10:55 AM - Re: Lithium aircraft batteries (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    11. 11:20 AM - Re: Found it! (Dan Billingsley)
    12. 11:22 AM - Re: Re: Found it! (Dan Billingsley)
    13. 07:17 PM - Re: Re: Found it! (Dan Billingsley)
    14. 07:32 PM - Re: Re: Found it! (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    15. 07:53 PM - Re: Re: Found it! (Dan Billingsley)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 06:35:16 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Found it!
    From: "user9253" <fran4sew@banyanol.com>
    Dan B, The avionics package for my RV-12 came with a ground loop isolator that is connected in series with the Garmin 496 audio output. The instructions say to use the isolator if XM weather option is installed. I found a similar looking device on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/GROUND-LOOP-ISOLATOR-3-5-APPLICATIONS/dp/B001EAQTRI Perhaps this is the same device that you found. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374162#374162


    Message 2


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    Time: 06:35:21 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Found it!
    From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
    Dan, And you don't think this indicates a problem with the Garmin 396? Swap units and see (or have it checked) before adding filters. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374160#374160


    Message 3


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    Time: 09:17:56 AM PST US
    From: "Vern Little" <sprocket@vx-aviation.com>
    Subject: Lithium aircraft batteries
    This technology is outside my field, so I am appealing to others for insight: =98aircraft battery=99 from: wicks aircraft Underlying technology: a123 systems There are a lot of hand-waving claims on these batteries, but not a lot of hard technical data. I=99m sure that they can be adapted for flight, but some thoughtful ground testing would be useful. Thoughts? Vern


    Message 4


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    Time: 09:57:47 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Found it!
    At 02:40 PM 5/28/2012, you wrote: After tracing wires, staring at the Z-16 schematic while going cross-eyed for some time now...I finally found my alternator whine. I thought for sure it was the bridge rectifier I used between the Main and E-buss because when I turned the E-buss on the whine went away. This morning I was doing quite a bit of troubleshooting and happened to try something I somehow overlooked. I turned off my Garmin 396 which has the audio connected to my P-1000 intercom. I think I had done it without the engine running, but today I tried it at idle...and magic happened with no hum at all. I pulled the audio wire from the 396 and started everything up and sure enough, that was it. So now I'm guessing a filter is in order between the 396 and the intercom? I started searching the net and came up with the PAC RCA Filter SNI-1/3.5 Filter for what line? Refresh my memory. The pitch of the whine changed with engine RPM? Can you run the GARMIN from it's own battery supply and still have the whine? Does the whine go up and down in volume with any of the system volume controls but not others? I'm betting Bob and Company has something already designed and if so it would be greatly appreciated if I could get the schematic and or instructions. I don't mind building it but if there is an easy go-to at low cost that would be good too. I'm still not clear as to why you would have the noise when the e-bus is powered through the normal feed path but goes away when you close the e-bus alternate feed. But knowing that it is associated with Garmin ops is helpful. Bob, I ordered your shottkey diode this week in an effort to make this fix. If you have not sent it yet can I cancel order? Sure. Bob . . .


    Message 5


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    Time: 10:18:24 AM PST US
    From: Dan Billingsley <dan@azshowersolutions.com>
    Subject: Re: Found it!
    =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A>________________________________=0A> =0A>=0A>Dan B,=0A>The avionics package for my RV-12 came with a ground loop isolator that is conn ected in series with the Garmin 496 audio output.- The instructions say t o use the isolator if XM weather option is installed.- I found a similar looking device on Amazon:=0A>http://www.amazon.com/GROUND-LOOP-ISOLATOR-3-5 -APPLICATIONS/dp/B001EAQTRI=0A>Perhaps this is the same device that you fou nd.=0A>Joe=0A>=0A>=0A>Joe, Yes the one you show on Amazon is the one I ran across. I spoke with one other guy (after I found disconnecting the 396 aud io out killed the noise) and he indicated he had the same problem with the 396. Interesting that Van's now sends a filter along.=0A>Dan=0A>--------=0A >Joe Gores=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Read this topic online here:=0A>=0A>http://fo rums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374162#374162=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> =====0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>


    Message 6


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    Time: 10:19:01 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Found it!
    From: Tom Chapman <tomrv4@me.com>
    I also had a radio noise problem that I finally traced to the audio out line on my 396. It is installed in my panel in an Air Gizmo mount. Turns out the audio out wire was kinking against the back of the mount when I'd stick the unit in. I cut away some of the plastic mount right behind the audio out plug, which alleviated the kinking and stopped the radio interference... Tom On May 29, 2012, at 8:28 AM, "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net> wrote: > > Dan, > > And you don't think this indicates a problem with the Garmin 396? > > Swap units and see (or have it checked) before adding filters. > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones(at)charter.net > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374160#374160 > > > > > > > > > >


    Message 7


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    Time: 10:21:32 AM PST US
    From: Dan Billingsley <dan@azshowersolutions.com>
    Subject: Re: Found it!
    Eric, I'm not sure yet if my Garmin has a problem or this is an inherent is sue with these units. The information I have gathered to date lends itself to the later.-=0ADan=0A=0A=0A=0A>________________________________=0A> Fro m: Eric M. Jones <emjones@charter.net>=0A>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.c om =0A>Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 6:28 AM=0A>Subject: AeroElectric-List: R s" <emjones@charter.net>=0A>=0A>Dan,=0A>=0A>And you don't think this indica tes a problem with the Garmin 396?=0A>=0A>Swap units and see (or have it ch ecked) before adding filters.=0A>=0A>--------=0A>Eric M. Jones=0A>www.Perih elionDesign.com=0A>113 Brentwood Drive=0A>Southbridge, MA 01550=0A>(508) 76 4-2072=0A>emjones(at)charter.net=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Read this topic online here:=0A>=0A>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374160#374160=0A -======================== -======================== ============0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>


    Message 8


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    Time: 10:28:20 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Lithium aircraft batteries
    At 11:15 AM 5/29/2012, you wrote: >This technology is outside my field, so I am appealing to others for insight: > >=98aircraft battery=99 from: ><http://wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_cat.php/subid=12699/index.html? PHPSESSID=10859438da394e0855f37e47720577ed>wicks >aircraft >Underlying technology: <http://www.a123systems.com/>a123 systems > >There are a lot of hand-waving claims on these >batteries, but not a lot of hard technical >data. I=99m sure that they can be adapted for >flight, but some thoughtful ground testing would be useful. Thoughts? > >Vern Li-Ion batteries for have been the Holy Grail for the TC aviation battery guys for quite some time. HBC was up to their eyeballs in studies for weight reduction without sacrificing performance before I left. I spent a significant amount of time studying battery issues for HBC in both the legacy (lead-acid) and shining-star-on-the-horizon worlds. To Cessna's credit, they spent a barrel of money and a lot of person-hours getting a Li-Ion product qualified for their aircraft. In fact, I think it was a brand new Citation being prepared for a big show that was fitted with a Li-Ion that caught fire on the ramp. This experience highlighted a few of the snakes not yet stuffed into the sack . . . Nobody had the slightest notion how to fight a lithium fire . . . nor were they provided the equipment to do it. Rumor has it that the battery was being charged on ground power and some hitch in the systems management software intended to prevent this accident wasn't minding the store. This is a RUMOR . . . I'm not yet privy to inside information of reliable source. Nonetheless, the incident sparked a rapid recall of all Li-Ion batteries still in the States. Since two airplanes were out of the country, Cessna's prophylactic against another occurrence called for an A/D to remove the Li-Ion battery in favor of SVLA or NiCad. I was asked to evaluate a Li-Ion product for suitability as a cranking battery on a TC light plane. The inquiry arrived just weeks before the Cessna ramp incident. Shucks, if Cessna could do it, I was inclined to favor use of this particular technology (Li-Fe) in the putt-putt. Yes, thousands of these batteries are in service everywhere and the owners of these batteries swear by their virtues. Nothing like consumer enthusiasm to drive up numbers of folks willing to wade in. It's a simple caveat emptor situation. If the weight of demonstrated successes combined with the weight savings is sufficiently powerful to encourage your own experiment, the risks are not scarry. . . but probably 1000x greater than for hazards demonstrated by SVLA devices (read this to mean that SVLA batteries are exceedingly low hazard). The other question to be asked and answered, "Okay, I've saved x.x pounds'. Now how do I use them?" I'm sure there are times when I left the ground a few pounds over-gross . . . not sure I'd spend extra dollars to stay under-gross no matter how safe the battery might be. A single weight-savings effort almost never offers a good return on investment. A TOTAL weight savings effort produces an airplane like Voyager that was sucked dry of no-value-added weight. It took 5 pounds of fuel to carry 1 pound of airplane around the world. 1 pound of empty weight was 6 pounds added weight at takeoff and perhaps 100 miles less range. This thought process produced an airplane that Dick Rutan feared. He wrote of nightmares about this airplane killing him. Someplace between goals and risk assumption for around-the-world-flight . . . and taking off for a nice weekend with the wife in Santa Fe, there is a very comfortable middle ground that probably is not improved by swapping out the plastic box of lead for a box of lithium. Bob . . .


    Message 9


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    Time: 10:32:26 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Found it!
    At 08:28 AM 5/29/2012, you wrote: > >Dan, > >And you don't think this indicates a problem with the Garmin 396? > >Swap units and see (or have it checked) before adding filters. . . . and make sure that any offending ground loop is the manifestation of a wiring architecture error. There are a lot of those radios flying without problems. The elegant solution is to identify root cause of the problem . . . but a $11 ground loop breaker might be less expensive at this stage. Bob . . .


    Message 10


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    Time: 10:55:46 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Lithium aircraft batteries
    > Someplace between goals and risk assumption > for around-the-world-flight . . . and taking off > for a nice weekend with the wife in Santa Fe, there > is a very comfortable middle ground that probably > is not improved by swapping out the plastic box > of lead for a box of lithium. Here are some links for the "hot products" of the moment in LiFePo4 technologies . . . http://tinyurl.com/6pebb9a http://tinyurl.com/75fnqwa http://tinyurl.com/6ol4uwy http://tinyurl.com/7gayeoe No doubt these things can get yer juices going . . . It would be interesting to run one in a 4-wheeled vehicle for awhile. Bob . . .


    Message 11


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    Time: 11:20:05 AM PST US
    From: Dan Billingsley <dan@azshowersolutions.com>
    Subject: Re: Found it!
    =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A>________________________________=0A> From: "Robert L. Nucko lls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>=0A>To: aeroelectric-list@matronic s.com =0A>Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 6:20 PM=0A>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-L Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>=0A>=0A>=0A>At 02:40 PM 5/28/ 2012, you wrote:=0A>After tracing wires, staring at the Z-16 schematic whil e going cross-eyed for some time now...I finally found my alternator whine. I thought for sure it was the bridge rectifier I used between the Main and E-buss because when I turned the E-buss on the whine went away. This morni ng I was doing quite a bit of troubleshooting and happened to try something I somehow overlooked. I turned off my Garmin396 which has the audio connec ted to my P-1000 intercom. I think I had done it without the engine running , but today I tried it at idle...and magic happened with no hum at all. I p ulled the audio wire from the 396 and started everything up and sure enough , that was it. So now I'm guessing a filter is in order between the 396 and the intercom?- I started searching the net and came up with the PAC RCA Filter SNI-1/3.5=0A>=0A>- Filter for what line? Refresh my memory. The pi tch=0A>- of the whine changed with engine RPM? Can you run=0A>- the GAR MINfrom it's own battery supply and still=0A>- have the whine? Does the w hine go up and down in=0A>- volume with any of the system volume controls but=0A>- not others? Bob, -Yes, this was / is certainly an alternator whine. It follows the engine RPM from idle up to about 2200 RPM (remember t he Rotax cruise is at or above 5000 RPM) and then became so high pitched it seemed to go away (probably still there but just out of MY ear-drum reciev ing frequency). I have lived with it for 20 hours of operation and I can se nd and receive fine on the com radio in flight, however, when I taxi the wh ine came into play and interfered communications with the Tower and Ground ops.=0A>=0A>=0A>The Garmin works and sounds fine on its own battery. I have used this unit in other planes and I do have the XM Weather antenna as wel l as the GPS antenna. When doing this I plug into the audio out and run it to my headset and can hear XM radio as well as terrain alerts loud and clea r.-=0A>=0A>=0A>As indicated I use a at's when I started P-1000 intercom a nd there is an audio-in wire to that. This is what I have plugged into the 396 audio out. The intercom volume does its job and just increases the whin e db's. the RPM fluctuates the frequency.=0A>=0A>I'm betting Bob and Compan y has something already designed and if so it would be greatly appreciated if I could get the schematic and or instructions. I don't mind building it but if there is an easy go-to at low cost that would be good too.=0A>=0A> - I'm still not clear as to why you would have the=0A>- noise when the e-bus is powered through the normal=0A>- feed path but goes away when you close the e-bus=0A>- alternate feed. But knowing that it is associated =0A>- with Garminops is helpful.=0A>This was my primary-question as wel l. I had my intercom power coming off of the E-Bus and the Garmin was on th e Main. I tried to place both on the same bus thinking that might help, but no joy. When I did that, interestingly the whine did not go away any more as the e-bus switch was closed. That's when I started thinking this was eit her about the intercom or the 396. That's when I zeroed in on the audio out on the 396. I spent a fair amount of time last night reading your chapter on Electromagnetic Compatability. Correct me here, but I am leaning towards trying to finish off that 1.5V peak to peak unfiltered ripple finding its way from the alternator. So if this is the case, am I just looking at placi ng a series Cap (and possibly coupled with an inductor) between the Garmin and the Intercom? I sure this is just a bandaid for -this area and not el iminating the source...but isn't that all we are really doing with this lef t over ripple?=0A>Thanks=0A>=0A>Bob, I ordered your shottkeydiode this week in an effort to make this fix. If you have not sent it yet can I cancel or ===================0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> =0A>


    Message 12


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    Time: 11:22:26 AM PST US
    From: Dan Billingsley <dan@azshowersolutions.com>
    Subject: Re: Found it!
    Tom, that is an interesting point. I also have one of the Air Gizmo mounts and the wire does tend to get jammed up there.=0ADan=0A=0A=0A=0A>__________ ______________________=0A> From: Tom Chapman <tomrv4@me.com>=0A>To: "aeroel ectric-list@matronics.com" <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com> =0A>Sent: Tues day, May 29, 2012 10:18 AM=0A>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Found it! m>=0A>=0A>I also had a radio noise problem that I finally traced to the aud io out line on my 396. It is installed in my panel in an Air Gizmo mount. T urns out the audio out wire was kinking against the back of the mount when I'd stick the unit in. =0A>=0A>I cut away some of the plastic mount right b ehind the audio out plug, which alleviated the kinking and stopped the radi o interference...=0A>=0A>Tom=0A>=0A>On May 29, 2012, at 8:28 AM, "Eric M. J ones" <emjones@charter.net> wrote:=0A>=0A>> --> AeroElectric-List message p osted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>=0A>> =0A>> Dan,=0A>> =0A>> And you don't think this indicates a problem with the Garmin 396?=0A>> =0A> > Swap units and see (or have it checked) before adding filters.=0A>> =0A>> --------=0A>> Eric M. Jones=0A>> www.PerihelionDesign.com=0A>> 113 Brentwo od Drive=0A>> Southbridge, MA 01550=0A>> (508) 764-2072=0A>> emjones(at)cha rter.net=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> Read this topic online here:=0A>> =0A >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374160#374160=0A>> =0A>> ======================0A>=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>=0A>


    Message 13


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    Time: 07:17:13 PM PST US
    From: Dan Billingsley <dan@azshowersolutions.com>
    Subject: Re: Found it!
    Found this thread on VansAirforce -http://www.vansairforce.com/community/ showthread.php?t=17882=0A>It looks like this is a common problem with the bert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>=0A>=0A>At 08:28 AM 5 Jones" <emjones@charter.net>=0A>> =0A>> Dan,=0A>> =0A>> And you don't thin k this indicates a problem with the Garmin 396?=0A>> =0A>> Swap units and s ee (or have it checked) before adding filters.=0A>=0A>- . . . and make s ure that any offending ground=0A>- loop is the manifestation of a wiring architecture=0A>- error.=0A>=0A>- There are a lot of those radios fl ying without=0A>- problems. The elegant solution is to identify root=0A> - cause of the problem . . . but a $11 ground=0A>- loop breaker might be less expensive at this=0A>- stage.=0A>=0A>=0A>- Bob . . . =0A>=0A> ==0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>


    Message 14


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    Time: 07:32:35 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Found it!
    At 09:14 PM 5/29/2012, you wrote: >Found this thread on >VansAirforce http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=17882 >It looks like this is a common problem with the Garmin 396. >Dan Okay, where does the 396 get power ground. Try grounding it to the same place all the audio-lo or shield grounds get connected. Bob . . .


    Message 15


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    Time: 07:53:38 PM PST US
    From: Dan Billingsley <dan@azshowersolutions.com>
    Subject: Re: Found it!
    =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A>________________________________=0A> From: "Robert L. Nucko lls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>=0A>To: aeroelectric-list@matronic s.com =0A>Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 7:31 PM=0A>Subject: Re: AeroElectric- List: Re: Found it!=0A> =0A>=0A>At 09:14 PM 5/29/2012, you wrote:=0A>=0A>Fo und this thread on VansAirforce-=0Ahttp://www.vansairforce.com/community/ showthread.php?t=17882=0A>>=0A>>It looks like this is a common problem wi th the Garmin 396. =0A>>=0A>>Dan=0A>> =0A>- Okay, where does the 396 get power ground. Try grounding it=0A>- to the same place all the audio-lo or shield grounds get=0A>- connected.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>- Bob . . . =0A>Will ==== =0A>=0A>




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