Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:35 AM - Re: Found it! (user9253)
2. 06:35 AM - Re: Found it! (Eric M. Jones)
3. 09:17 AM - Lithium aircraft batteries (Vern Little)
4. 09:57 AM - Re: Found it! (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 10:18 AM - Re: Re: Found it! (Dan Billingsley)
6. 10:19 AM - Re: Re: Found it! (Tom Chapman)
7. 10:21 AM - Re: Re: Found it! (Dan Billingsley)
8. 10:28 AM - Re: Lithium aircraft batteries (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 10:32 AM - Re: Re: Found it! (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 10:55 AM - Re: Lithium aircraft batteries (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 11:20 AM - Re: Found it! (Dan Billingsley)
12. 11:22 AM - Re: Re: Found it! (Dan Billingsley)
13. 07:17 PM - Re: Re: Found it! (Dan Billingsley)
14. 07:32 PM - Re: Re: Found it! (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
15. 07:53 PM - Re: Re: Found it! (Dan Billingsley)
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Dan B,
The avionics package for my RV-12 came with a ground loop isolator that is connected
in series with the Garmin 496 audio output. The instructions say to use
the isolator if XM weather option is installed. I found a similar looking device
on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/GROUND-LOOP-ISOLATOR-3-5-APPLICATIONS/dp/B001EAQTRI
Perhaps this is the same device that you found.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374162#374162
Message 2
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Dan,
And you don't think this indicates a problem with the Garmin 396?
Swap units and see (or have it checked) before adding filters.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374160#374160
Message 3
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Subject: | Lithium aircraft batteries |
This technology is outside my field, so I am appealing to others for
insight:
=98aircraft battery=99 from: wicks aircraft
Underlying technology: a123 systems
There are a lot of hand-waving claims on these batteries, but not a lot
of hard technical data. I=99m sure that they can be adapted for
flight, but some thoughtful ground testing would be useful. Thoughts?
Vern
Message 4
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At 02:40 PM 5/28/2012, you wrote:
After tracing wires, staring at the Z-16 schematic while going
cross-eyed for some time now...I finally found my alternator whine. I
thought for sure it was the bridge rectifier I used between the Main
and E-buss because when I turned the E-buss on the whine went away.
This morning I was doing quite a bit of troubleshooting and happened
to try something I somehow overlooked. I turned off my Garmin 396
which has the audio connected to my P-1000 intercom. I think I had
done it without the engine running, but today I tried it at
idle...and magic happened with no hum at all. I pulled the audio wire
from the 396 and started everything up and sure enough, that was it.
So now I'm guessing a filter is in order between the 396 and the
intercom? I started searching the net and came up with the PAC RCA
Filter SNI-1/3.5
Filter for what line? Refresh my memory. The pitch
of the whine changed with engine RPM? Can you run
the GARMIN from it's own battery supply and still
have the whine? Does the whine go up and down in
volume with any of the system volume controls but
not others?
I'm betting Bob and Company has something already designed and if so
it would be greatly appreciated if I could get the schematic and or
instructions. I don't mind building it but if there is an easy go-to
at low cost that would be good too.
I'm still not clear as to why you would have the
noise when the e-bus is powered through the normal
feed path but goes away when you close the e-bus
alternate feed. But knowing that it is associated
with Garmin ops is helpful.
Bob, I ordered your shottkey diode this week in an effort to make
this fix. If you have not sent it yet can I cancel order?
Sure.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A>________________________________=0A> =0A>=0A>Dan B,=0A>The
avionics package for my RV-12 came with a ground loop isolator that is conn
ected in series with the Garmin 496 audio output.- The instructions say t
o use the isolator if XM weather option is installed.- I found a similar
looking device on Amazon:=0A>http://www.amazon.com/GROUND-LOOP-ISOLATOR-3-5
-APPLICATIONS/dp/B001EAQTRI=0A>Perhaps this is the same device that you fou
nd.=0A>Joe=0A>=0A>=0A>Joe, Yes the one you show on Amazon is the one I ran
across. I spoke with one other guy (after I found disconnecting the 396 aud
io out killed the noise) and he indicated he had the same problem with the
396. Interesting that Van's now sends a filter along.=0A>Dan=0A>--------=0A
>Joe Gores=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Read this topic online here:=0A>=0A>http://fo
rums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374162#374162=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>
=====0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>
Message 6
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I also had a radio noise problem that I finally traced to the audio out line on
my 396. It is installed in my panel in an Air Gizmo mount. Turns out the audio
out wire was kinking against the back of the mount when I'd stick the unit in.
I cut away some of the plastic mount right behind the audio out plug, which alleviated
the kinking and stopped the radio interference...
Tom
On May 29, 2012, at 8:28 AM, "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net> wrote:
>
> Dan,
>
> And you don't think this indicates a problem with the Garmin 396?
>
> Swap units and see (or have it checked) before adding filters.
>
> --------
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
> 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge, MA 01550
> (508) 764-2072
> emjones(at)charter.net
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374160#374160
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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Eric, I'm not sure yet if my Garmin has a problem or this is an inherent is
sue with these units. The information I have gathered to date lends itself
to the later.-=0ADan=0A=0A=0A=0A>________________________________=0A> Fro
m: Eric M. Jones <emjones@charter.net>=0A>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.c
om =0A>Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 6:28 AM=0A>Subject: AeroElectric-List: R
s" <emjones@charter.net>=0A>=0A>Dan,=0A>=0A>And you don't think this indica
tes a problem with the Garmin 396?=0A>=0A>Swap units and see (or have it ch
ecked) before adding filters.=0A>=0A>--------=0A>Eric M. Jones=0A>www.Perih
elionDesign.com=0A>113 Brentwood Drive=0A>Southbridge, MA 01550=0A>(508) 76
4-2072=0A>emjones(at)charter.net=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Read this topic online
here:=0A>=0A>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374160#374160=0A
-========================
-========================
============0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Lithium aircraft batteries |
At 11:15 AM 5/29/2012, you wrote:
>This technology is outside my field, so I am appealing to others for
insight:
>
>=98aircraft battery=99 from:
><http://wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_cat.php/subid=12699/index.html?
PHPSESSID=10859438da394e0855f37e47720577ed>wicks
>aircraft
>Underlying technology: <http://www.a123systems.com/>a123 systems
>
>There are a lot of hand-waving claims on these
>batteries, but not a lot of hard technical
>data. I=99m sure that they can be adapted for
>flight, but some thoughtful ground testing would be useful. Thoughts?
>
>Vern
Li-Ion batteries for have been the Holy Grail
for the TC aviation battery guys for quite some time.
HBC was up to their eyeballs in studies for weight
reduction without sacrificing performance before I
left. I spent a significant amount of time studying
battery issues for HBC in both the legacy (lead-acid)
and shining-star-on-the-horizon worlds.
To Cessna's credit, they spent a barrel of money
and a lot of person-hours getting a Li-Ion product
qualified for their aircraft. In fact, I think it was
a brand new Citation being prepared for a big show
that was fitted with a Li-Ion that caught fire on
the ramp. This experience highlighted a few of
the snakes not yet stuffed into the sack . . .
Nobody had the slightest notion how to fight a lithium
fire . . . nor were they provided the equipment
to do it.
Rumor has it that the battery was being charged on
ground power and some hitch in the systems management
software intended to prevent this accident wasn't
minding the store. This is a RUMOR . . . I'm not yet
privy to inside information of reliable source.
Nonetheless, the incident sparked a rapid recall of
all Li-Ion batteries still in the States. Since
two airplanes were out of the country, Cessna's
prophylactic against another occurrence called for an
A/D to remove the Li-Ion battery in favor of
SVLA or NiCad.
I was asked to evaluate a Li-Ion product for suitability
as a cranking battery on a TC light plane. The inquiry
arrived just weeks before the Cessna ramp incident.
Shucks, if Cessna could do it, I was inclined to
favor use of this particular technology (Li-Fe)
in the putt-putt.
Yes, thousands of these batteries are in service
everywhere and the owners of these batteries swear
by their virtues. Nothing like consumer enthusiasm
to drive up numbers of folks willing to wade in.
It's a simple caveat emptor situation. If the weight
of demonstrated successes combined with the weight
savings is sufficiently powerful to encourage your
own experiment, the risks are not scarry. . . but
probably 1000x greater than for hazards demonstrated
by SVLA devices (read this to mean that SVLA batteries
are exceedingly low hazard).
The other question to be asked and answered, "Okay,
I've saved x.x pounds'. Now how do I use them?"
I'm sure there are times when I left the ground
a few pounds over-gross . . . not sure I'd spend
extra dollars to stay under-gross no matter how safe
the battery might be.
A single weight-savings effort almost never offers
a good return on investment. A TOTAL weight savings
effort produces an airplane like Voyager that was
sucked dry of no-value-added weight. It took
5 pounds of fuel to carry 1 pound of airplane
around the world. 1 pound of empty weight was 6
pounds added weight at takeoff and perhaps 100
miles less range. This thought process produced
an airplane that Dick Rutan feared. He wrote of
nightmares about this airplane killing him.
Someplace between goals and risk assumption
for around-the-world-flight . . . and taking off
for a nice weekend with the wife in Santa Fe, there
is a very comfortable middle ground that probably
is not improved by swapping out the plastic box
of lead for a box of lithium.
Bob . . .
Message 9
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At 08:28 AM 5/29/2012, you wrote:
>
>Dan,
>
>And you don't think this indicates a problem with the Garmin 396?
>
>Swap units and see (or have it checked) before adding filters.
. . . and make sure that any offending ground
loop is the manifestation of a wiring architecture
error.
There are a lot of those radios flying without
problems. The elegant solution is to identify root
cause of the problem . . . but a $11 ground
loop breaker might be less expensive at this
stage.
Bob . . .
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Lithium aircraft batteries |
> Someplace between goals and risk assumption
> for around-the-world-flight . . . and taking off
> for a nice weekend with the wife in Santa Fe, there
> is a very comfortable middle ground that probably
> is not improved by swapping out the plastic box
> of lead for a box of lithium.
Here are some links for the "hot products" of
the moment in LiFePo4 technologies . . .
http://tinyurl.com/6pebb9a
http://tinyurl.com/75fnqwa
http://tinyurl.com/6ol4uwy
http://tinyurl.com/7gayeoe
No doubt these things can get yer juices
going . . .
It would be interesting to run one in a 4-wheeled
vehicle for awhile.
Bob . . .
Message 11
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=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A>________________________________=0A> From: "Robert L. Nucko
lls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>=0A>To: aeroelectric-list@matronic
s.com =0A>Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 6:20 PM=0A>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-L
Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>=0A>=0A>=0A>At 02:40 PM 5/28/
2012, you wrote:=0A>After tracing wires, staring at the Z-16 schematic whil
e going cross-eyed for some time now...I finally found my alternator whine.
I thought for sure it was the bridge rectifier I used between the Main and
E-buss because when I turned the E-buss on the whine went away. This morni
ng I was doing quite a bit of troubleshooting and happened to try something
I somehow overlooked. I turned off my Garmin396 which has the audio connec
ted to my P-1000 intercom. I think I had done it without the engine running
, but today I tried it at idle...and magic happened with no hum at all. I p
ulled the audio wire from the 396 and started everything up and sure enough
, that was it. So now I'm guessing a filter is in order between the 396 and
the intercom?- I started searching the net and came up with the PAC RCA
Filter SNI-1/3.5=0A>=0A>- Filter for what line? Refresh my memory. The pi
tch=0A>- of the whine changed with engine RPM? Can you run=0A>- the GAR
MINfrom it's own battery supply and still=0A>- have the whine? Does the w
hine go up and down in=0A>- volume with any of the system volume controls
but=0A>- not others? Bob, -Yes, this was / is certainly an alternator
whine. It follows the engine RPM from idle up to about 2200 RPM (remember t
he Rotax cruise is at or above 5000 RPM) and then became so high pitched it
seemed to go away (probably still there but just out of MY ear-drum reciev
ing frequency). I have lived with it for 20 hours of operation and I can se
nd and receive fine on the com radio in flight, however, when I taxi the wh
ine came into play and interfered communications with the Tower and Ground
ops.=0A>=0A>=0A>The Garmin works and sounds fine on its own battery. I have
used this unit in other planes and I do have the XM Weather antenna as wel
l as the GPS antenna. When doing this I plug into the audio out and run it
to my headset and can hear XM radio as well as terrain alerts loud and clea
r.-=0A>=0A>=0A>As indicated I use a at's when I started P-1000 intercom a
nd there is an audio-in wire to that. This is what I have plugged into the
396 audio out. The intercom volume does its job and just increases the whin
e db's. the RPM fluctuates the frequency.=0A>=0A>I'm betting Bob and Compan
y has something already designed and if so it would be greatly appreciated
if I could get the schematic and or instructions. I don't mind building it
but if there is an easy go-to at low cost that would be good too.=0A>=0A>
- I'm still not clear as to why you would have the=0A>- noise when the
e-bus is powered through the normal=0A>- feed path but goes away when you
close the e-bus=0A>- alternate feed. But knowing that it is associated
=0A>- with Garminops is helpful.=0A>This was my primary-question as wel
l. I had my intercom power coming off of the E-Bus and the Garmin was on th
e Main. I tried to place both on the same bus thinking that might help, but
no joy. When I did that, interestingly the whine did not go away any more
as the e-bus switch was closed. That's when I started thinking this was eit
her about the intercom or the 396. That's when I zeroed in on the audio out
on the 396. I spent a fair amount of time last night reading your chapter
on Electromagnetic Compatability. Correct me here, but I am leaning towards
trying to finish off that 1.5V peak to peak unfiltered ripple finding its
way from the alternator. So if this is the case, am I just looking at placi
ng a series Cap (and possibly coupled with an inductor) between the Garmin
and the Intercom? I sure this is just a bandaid for -this area and not el
iminating the source...but isn't that all we are really doing with this lef
t over ripple?=0A>Thanks=0A>=0A>Bob, I ordered your shottkeydiode this week
in an effort to make this fix. If you have not sent it yet can I cancel or
===================0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>
=0A>
Message 12
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Tom, that is an interesting point. I also have one of the Air Gizmo mounts
and the wire does tend to get jammed up there.=0ADan=0A=0A=0A=0A>__________
______________________=0A> From: Tom Chapman <tomrv4@me.com>=0A>To: "aeroel
ectric-list@matronics.com" <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com> =0A>Sent: Tues
day, May 29, 2012 10:18 AM=0A>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Found it!
m>=0A>=0A>I also had a radio noise problem that I finally traced to the aud
io out line on my 396. It is installed in my panel in an Air Gizmo mount. T
urns out the audio out wire was kinking against the back of the mount when
I'd stick the unit in. =0A>=0A>I cut away some of the plastic mount right b
ehind the audio out plug, which alleviated the kinking and stopped the radi
o interference...=0A>=0A>Tom=0A>=0A>On May 29, 2012, at 8:28 AM, "Eric M. J
ones" <emjones@charter.net> wrote:=0A>=0A>> --> AeroElectric-List message p
osted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>=0A>> =0A>> Dan,=0A>> =0A>>
And you don't think this indicates a problem with the Garmin 396?=0A>> =0A>
> Swap units and see (or have it checked) before adding filters.=0A>> =0A>>
--------=0A>> Eric M. Jones=0A>> www.PerihelionDesign.com=0A>> 113 Brentwo
od Drive=0A>> Southbridge, MA 01550=0A>> (508) 764-2072=0A>> emjones(at)cha
rter.net=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> Read this topic online here:=0A>> =0A
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374160#374160=0A>> =0A>>
======================0A>=0A>=0A>
=0A>=0A>=0A>
Message 13
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Found this thread on VansAirforce -http://www.vansairforce.com/community/
showthread.php?t=17882=0A>It looks like this is a common problem with the
bert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>=0A>=0A>At 08:28 AM 5
Jones" <emjones@charter.net>=0A>> =0A>> Dan,=0A>> =0A>> And you don't thin
k this indicates a problem with the Garmin 396?=0A>> =0A>> Swap units and s
ee (or have it checked) before adding filters.=0A>=0A>- . . . and make s
ure that any offending ground=0A>- loop is the manifestation of a wiring
architecture=0A>- error.=0A>=0A>- There are a lot of those radios fl
ying without=0A>- problems. The elegant solution is to identify root=0A>
- cause of the problem . . . but a $11 ground=0A>- loop breaker might
be less expensive at this=0A>- stage.=0A>=0A>=0A>- Bob . . . =0A>=0A>
==0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>
Message 14
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At 09:14 PM 5/29/2012, you wrote:
>Found this thread on
>VansAirforce http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=17882
>It looks like this is a common problem with the Garmin 396.
>Dan
Okay, where does the 396 get power ground. Try grounding it
to the same place all the audio-lo or shield grounds get
connected.
Bob . . .
Message 15
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=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A>________________________________=0A> From: "Robert L. Nucko
lls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>=0A>To: aeroelectric-list@matronic
s.com =0A>Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 7:31 PM=0A>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-
List: Re: Found it!=0A> =0A>=0A>At 09:14 PM 5/29/2012, you wrote:=0A>=0A>Fo
und this thread on VansAirforce-=0Ahttp://www.vansairforce.com/community/
showthread.php?t=17882=0A>>=0A>>It looks like this is a common problem wi
th the Garmin 396. =0A>>=0A>>Dan=0A>> =0A>- Okay, where does the 396 get
power ground. Try grounding it=0A>- to the same place all the audio-lo or
shield grounds get=0A>- connected.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>- Bob . . . =0A>Will
==== =0A>=0A>
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