---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 06/25/12: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:31 AM - 1562 (Janet Amtmann) 2. 08:58 AM - Re: 1562 (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS) 3. 09:14 AM - Re: 1562 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 09:14 AM - Re: 1562 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 10:51 AM - Re: Re: OS Wig-Wag Project (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 10:55 AM - 1562 Maintainer (Janet Amtmann) 7. 11:33 AM - Re: 1562 Maintainer (Michael Welch) 8. 12:00 PM - Garmin believes in Old Wive's Tales. (user9253) 9. 12:39 PM - Re: Garmin believes in Old Wive's Tales. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 01:01 PM - Re: Garmin believes in Old Wive's Tales. (user9253) 11. 01:06 PM - Re: Garmin believes in Old Wive's Tales. (user9253) 12. 03:35 PM - Re: OS Wig-Wag Project (gregmchugh) 13. 04:22 PM - Service Record Number 87343 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 06:33 PM - What'w wrong with this circuit? (Jeff Luckey) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:31:25 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: 1562 From: Janet Amtmann Thanks to David and the List, the problem with my 1562 Maintainer has been solved. Schumacher, on the other hand was either unwilling or unable to help me. Regards, J=FCrgen Amtmann Do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:58:43 AM PST US From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: 1562 Thanks to David and the List, the problem with my 1562 Maintainer has been solved. Schumacher, on the other hand was either unwilling or unable to help me. Regards, J=FCrgen Amtmann Please let us know what you did to fix it. Thanks, Roger Do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:14:28 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 1562 At 10:25 AM 6/25/2012, you wrote: >Thanks to David and the List, the problem with my 1562 Maintainer >has been solved. Schumacher, on the other hand was either unwilling >or unable to help me. Good to hear . . . probably 'unable' . . . in large, ISO9000 organizations folks are hired to fill silos of duty and supplied with "organizationally correct" knowledge to fulfill those duties. On top of that, they're seldom mentored to hone their skills at performing those duties. Hence, the individuals who talk to you on the phone are multiple levels and silos away from the folks who designed the product. Unlike airplanes, there's no maintenance services for customers. Devices like a 1562 that retails for $20 and costs less than $5 to build is simply a disposable commodity. The very best response one can expect from 'factory support' is an offer to replace on warranty. You may recall my narrative of a visit to MPA's alternator re-manufacturing facilities a few years ago. Return rates for good, better, best alternators was something like 18, 12, and 6 percent. All three 'grades' were the exact same alternator sold perhaps in a different box and supported by a service- contract that the customer buys built into the price for the better and best. MPA didn't keep tight records as to reasons for returns. Periodic studies showed that the vast majority of all returns were 'no fault found' . . . the rates of return seemed to have more to do with the grade of installing/troubleshooting mechanic. Returned units didn't get any heavy screening at the retail counter. Perfectly good returns were simply dumped into the re-cycle stream and processed just like a unit covered in 100,000 miles of grease and mud. This is because labor is the largest single cost for end-to-end service on most commodity products. It simply doesn't make sense to even wonder about why a device is returned. Only when statistical process controls show a marked jump in overall returns will engineering or QA even get into the loop. The cost of processing no-fault-found returns is simply factored into the cost of doing business and added to the retail price. So I'm not surprised that your experience with Schumacher was less than satisfying. I suspect it would be equally unsatisfying if you were dealing with MPA. There's simply no return on investment for giving the occasional customer an intellectually satisfying experience for having found, understood and fixed root cause in spite of the fact that both companies produce a stellar product, It's the new world of consumer products where everybody strives for a $100,000/year job. It's cheaper to pitch/replace their work product than to fix it. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:14:46 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: 1562 At 10:55 AM 6/25/2012, you wrote: Thanks to David and the List, the problem with my 1562 Maintainer has been solved. Schumacher, on the other hand was either unwilling or unable to help me. Regards, J=FCrgen Amtmann Please let us know what you did to fix it. Thanks, Roger Do not archive Yes! Pictures would be great too . . . if you had to do something inside. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:51:12 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: OS Wig-Wag Project Greg, Been up to my fanny in loft beds and plumbing but while plying the asphalt between here and Wichita I came up with this idea for getting "more" from the OS wig-wag module. How about two switches labeled LANDING and TAXI. Have each switch provide an active LO to produce an action on the two lights as follows: Emacs! This would give the builder/installer the option of both on steady or wig-wag depending on a difference in paired or separate selection of the two switch positions. If in single lamp operation, the switches would both have to be placed at off and the simultaneously placed to ON to switch to Wig-Wag. Otherwise, the two switches independently control their respective lamps in steady-on operation. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:55:34 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: 1562 Maintainer From: Janet Amtmann David suggested that I publish the steps I took to get my 1562 Maintainer to revert to its normal mode of operation after it stopped maintaining and stayed in the charge mode (yellow LED). He suggested that some processors (like the one in the 1562) can get confused and need to go thru a reset sequence to get back to normal operation. So, for anyone that has the same problem: disconnect the maintainer from power and battery, after a decent interval connect the charge clips to the battery, then connect the power cord. Disconnect the power cord first, then disconnect the charge clips. I did it twice. The maintainer is now acting normally and maintaining my battery (green LED). Thanks David. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:33:31 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 1562 Maintainer From: Michael Welch Thanks for the tips. Mine is doing the exact same thing. I'll give it a try. Mike Welch On Jun 25, 2012, at 12:54 PM, Janet Amtmann wrote: > David suggested that I publish the steps I took to get my 1562 Maintainer to revert to its normal mode of operation after it stopped maintaining and stayed in the charge mode (yellow LED). He suggested that some processors (like the one in the 1562) can get confused and need to go thru a reset sequence to get back to normal operation. So, for anyone that has the same problem: disconnect the maintainer from power and battery, after a decent interval connect the charge clips to the battery, then connect the power cord. Disconnect the power cord first, then disconnect the charge clips. I did it twice. The maintainer is now acting normally and maintaining my battery (green LED). Thanks David. > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:00:46 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Garmin believes in Old Wive's Tales. From: "user9253" From: Aviation Product Support Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 9:52 AM Subject: Start engine with SL40 turned on ISSUE=87343 PROJ=1 Email Notification from Garmin Aviation Product Support Thank you for contacting Garmin Aviation Product Support. Your service record has been created with the information below. For immediate assistance please call 866-739-5687 during normal business hours (7AM 7PM US Central time, Monday through Friday) and refer to the Service Record Number below. Service Record Number: 87343 Subject: Start engine with SL40 turned on Last update: 06/25/2012 07:52:39 Brief description of the problem: It is not recommended - damage could result if a spike from the electrical system made it to the unit and was to fast for the protection circuitry to catch it. If any of the above information is incorrect, please reply to this email with corrected contact information. You may also contact Garmin Aviation Product Support at 866-739-5687 and provide the information to the agent who assists you. For the latest news about Garmin products and services, please visit our Web site at www.garmin.com. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=376582#376582 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:39:28 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Garmin believes in Old Wive's Tales. At 02:00 PM 6/25/2012, you wrote: > >From: Aviation Product Support >Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 9:52 AM >Subject: Start engine with SL40 turned on ISSUE=87343 PROJ=1 > >Email Notification from Garmin Aviation Product Support >Thank you for contacting Garmin Aviation Product >Support. Your service record has been created with the information below. > >For immediate assistance please call >866-739-5687 during normal business hours (7AM > 7PM US Central time, Monday through Friday) >and refer to the Service Record Number below. > >Service Record Number: 87343 >Subject: Start engine with SL40 turned on >Last update: 06/25/2012 07:52:39 > >Brief description of the problem: >It is not recommended - damage could result if a >spike from the electrical system made it to the >unit and was to fast for the protection circuitry to catch it. > > >If any of the above information is incorrect, >please reply to this email with corrected contact information. Can you give me the reverse e-mail link? It would be interesting to see if anyone at Garmin has identified a new spike risk. It would also be interesting to know how one crafts "slow protection circuitry" . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:01:21 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Garmin believes in Old Wive's Tales. From: "user9253" Aviation.Support (at) garmin dot com Here you go Bob. Replace the (at) with @ and replace the dot with a period and remove the spaces. Mention Service Record Number: 87343 Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=376586#376586 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:06:08 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Garmin believes in Old Wive's Tales. From: "user9253" Below is the question that my friend asked Garmin: > I would like to know if it is acceptable to start the engine when my SL40 is turned on. [/code] -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=376589#376589 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:35:10 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: OS Wig-Wag Project From: "gregmchugh" Bob, That seems to be a good solution. I will spin a version of the software for this and send another PIC chip along to you. Probably sent off to you by the end of the week. Greg McHugh Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=376597#376597 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:22:56 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Service Record Number 87343 Good morning, By way of introduction, I'm an electrical engineer retired from a 45 year career in aviation related electrics and electronics. My last 13-year stint was with Hawker-Beechcraft where most of my job focused on environmental robustness and DO-160 certification issues. The last 5 years at HBC included the duties of Lead Subject Matter Expert for Electrical Systems. A client of mine forwarded an email from your address wherein it was suggested that certain 'spikes' present on the electrical system during engine cranking might be damaging to your SL-40 product. I was surprised by this assertion for two reasons: (1) DO-160 Qualification Protocols have evolved over the last 50+ years to assist designers and manufacturers in the production of products immune to the worst case stresses that one might expect on the DC power system of an airplane (or any other vehicle). (2) In years of watching instrumented DC power conditions under all operating conditions on everything from Cessna 150s through the Hawker 800, I've never had occasion to capture a transient event (other than gross over-voltage) that would offer a threat to an artfully crafted and qualified piece of avionics. During engine cranking, the bus is remarkably free of transients that exceed energy levels to which every qualified device is subjected during DO-160 testing. The assertion made in your email to my client gives one pause to wonder if Garmin is (1) aware of some design deficiency that would make the product vulnerable to normal and expected DC bus transients or (2) some new and heretofore undiscovered threat has been identified that exceeds DO-160 qualification requirements. I've been teaching my students that we no longer need be concerned about such matters for devices qualified to DO-160. Indeed, I've either designed or been cognizant of dozens of 'fragile', micro-processor based devices which are connected to the ship's main bus under all conditions including engine cranking. None of these devices requires extra-ordinary protection for start-up transients. I'm curious about differences in the SL-40 that prompts Garmin to assert some value in disconnecting the radio during engine cranking. The idea is contrary to my own understanding of the physics involved and argues with what I have been teaching in my classes for the last 25 years. If I'm in error, I'd really need to be aware of any enlightenment one of your engineers might offer. Thanks! Kindest regards, Robert L. Nuckolls, III AeroElectric Connection P.O. Box 130 Medicine Lodge, Kansas 67104 (316)209-7528 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:33:58 PM PST US From: "Jeff Luckey" Subject: AeroElectric-List: What'w wrong with this circuit? Please see attached jpg (and forgive my scribbling). Schematic is simplified - omitting things like contactors. Looking for discussion on the general theory of feeding main bus thru isolation diodes for max protection from failure in batt -> contactor -> feed cable chain Mission: To provide reliable power to the Bus Assume: The diodes are big & well heat-sunk (sinked?) Analysis: 1. What are the top 3 reasons not to use a circuit like this 2. Other ways to accomplish the same thing Thanks, Jeff Luckey ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.