---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 06/28/12: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:41 AM - Engine start on Z14 with different size batteries (bobbarrow) 2. 05:13 AM - Re: Producing pdf or xps files with ExpressSCH (Eric M. Jones) 3. 05:47 AM - Re: Producing pdf or xps files with ExpressSCH (Roberto Waltman) 4. 06:06 AM - Re: Producing pdf or xps files with ExpressSCH (Jay Hyde) 5. 08:49 AM - Re: Engine start on Z14 with different size batteries (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 08:51 AM - Re: Latching Relay Redux (user9253) 7. 09:51 AM - Re: Re: Latching Relay Redux (Jeff Luckey) 8. 09:56 AM - Re: Producing pdf or xps files with ExpressSCH (Vern Little) 9. 11:16 AM - Re: Engine start on Z14 with different size batteries (Dick Wildman) 10. 11:44 AM - Re: Latching Relay Redux (Bob Meyers) 11. 12:35 PM - Re: Engine start on Z14 with different size batteries (Bill) 12. 01:58 PM - Re: Engine start on Z14 with different size batteries (Dick Wildman) 13. 03:15 PM - Resistance fuel senders to 2 gauges (Peter Pengilly) 14. 04:08 PM - Re: Engine start on Z14 with different size batteries (Ken) 15. 07:53 PM - Re: Resistance fuel senders to 2 gauges (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:41:57 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Engine start on Z14 with different size batteries From: "bobbarrow" I have the Z14 architecture (dual independent buses with crossfeed contactor) on my RV7. But the architecture is not symmetrical as per Bob Knuckolls drawings. In my set-up I have an Odyssey 680 battery (17 AH) plus a B&C 40 amp alternator on Bus 1. On Bus 2, I have an Odyssey 310 (7.5 AH) plus a B&C 20 amp alternator. Yes, I know as a system it's overkill but let's not go there because it's already installed. In my architecture Bus 1 with the big battery is the sole starter cranking bus for normal operations. Accordingly all "starter current path" wires on Bus 1 are 2 AWG to reduce resistance during engine start. By comparison I calculate that the largest wire on Bus 2 could be 8 AWG for normal operations on that bus including Xfeed operations to bus 2 (for non cranking operations). However it occurs to me that if my Bus 1 battery (Odyssey 680) was struggling to crank the engine in a remore location I would be tempted to switch on the Xfeed and get whatever current boost I could from the smaller Odyssey 310 on bus 2. My question is this: What size wire do I need to incorporate in the "starter current" path of bus 2 to facilitate assisted engine cranking on the odd occasion from the smaller battery. Presumably bigger would always be better....but what's reasonable. Regards Bob Barrow :) :) :) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=376755#376755 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:13:55 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Producing pdf or xps files with ExpressSCH From: "Eric M. Jones" > I have some schematics that are 20 pages long that I wish to publish and share in pdf format. Vern, I can't solve the ExpressPCB issue in general, but what I do is use a "screen-capture" like the screen grabber import function in Paint Shot Pro. (I use this to grab all layers of a pcb, then flip one layer, to produce folded mockup paper boards for circuit tracing and examination before sending board out for manufacture.) This is a good function to have at your disposal for capturing all sorts of images. If you can see an image on the video display, then you can grab it and manipulate it as a BMP. JPG, etc. Then you can print anything as a pdf using Smart PDF Converter or other free or cheap pdf converters. There are free older versions of Paint Shop Pro for the taking online. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=376762#376762 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/lv_warning_o_194.jpg ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:47:43 AM PST US From: Roberto Waltman Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Producing pdf or xps files with ExpressSCH Vern Little wrote: > For those of you using ExpressSCH/ExpressPCB, > ... and multiple > single-page files as the output rather than one file with all sheets. Not a solution, but as a work-around, there are tools that will allow you to combine several PDF's into a single file. Don't recall names from the top of my head, will try to locate some over the weekend and report here. Roberto. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:06:18 AM PST US From: "Jay Hyde" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Producing pdf or xps files with ExpressSCH Try PDF995 (http://www.pdf995.com/); their pdf creator is cheap and easy to use. I have been using it for a while now and its great. Cost around $10 I think Jay -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roberto Waltman Sent: 28 June 2012 02:47 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Producing pdf or xps files with ExpressSCH --> Vern Little wrote: > For those of you using ExpressSCH/ExpressPCB, ... and multiple > single-page files as the output rather than one file with all sheets. Not a solution, but as a work-around, there are tools that will allow you to combine several PDF's into a single file. Don't recall names from the top of my head, will try to locate some over the weekend and report here. Roberto. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:49:18 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Engine start on Z14 with different size batteries At 04:40 AM 6/28/2012, you wrote: >In my architecture Bus 1 with the big battery is the sole starter >cranking bus for normal operations. Accordingly all "starter current >path" wires on Bus 1 are 2 AWG to reduce resistance during engine start. Unless your batteries are in the tail, 2AWG is heavier than necessary but certainly not an electrical performance issue. >By comparison I calculate that the largest wire on Bus 2 could be 8 >AWG for normal operations on that bus including Xfeed operations to >bus 2 (for non cranking operations). If your batteries are up front and the small battery is not intended to crank the engine, then probably 12AWG is sufficient on the aux alternator side . . . >However it occurs to me that if my Bus 1 battery (Odyssey 680) was >struggling to crank the engine in a remore location I would be >tempted to switch on the Xfeed and get whatever current boost I >could from the smaller Odyssey 310 on bus 2. > >My question is this: What size wire do I need to incorporate in >the "starter current" path of bus 2 to facilitate assisted engine >cranking on the odd occasion from the smaller battery. Presumably >bigger would always be better....but what's reasonable. We're talking seconds here. 20A through a 22 AWG wire wont 'burn' the wire. 12AWG or perhaps 10AWG in your aux alternator system is quite adequate to the task even if you find yourself tempted to 'boost' the larger battery's abilities with the smaller battery. But I'll suggest that a ground power system capable of jump-starting from a ground vehicle is a much better hedge against soggy batteries in remote locations. If you plan to frequent remote locations, then keeping a sharp eye on the condition of the larger battery is important. You need to replace it when it drops to 70% or less of capacity . . . this isn't an endurance issue, it's a cranking issue for ventures into higher risk airports. Being able to 'stack' the 7.5 a.h. battery on top of a soggy 17 a.h. battery is poor insurance irrespective of wire sizes. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:51:57 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Latching Relay Redux From: "user9253" Attached is an untried circuit to reduce contactor current using PWM. The TC648 costs less than $2. It will start up at 100 percent duty cycle to pull in the master contactor. Then it will hold with PWM at reduced current. The progressive transfer type switch will normally be operated in the center position but can be full up to bypass the PWM circuit. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=376783#376783 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/contactor_pwm_789.pdf ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:51:45 AM PST US From: "Jeff Luckey" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Latching Relay Redux Joe As I have mentioned in previous posts, I'm not a big fan of adding complex circuitry to the coil circuit of the master contactor. I think it makes the system less reliable for very little benefit. However, I do like the way the switch is wired in that schematic with the bypass circuit. -Jeff -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of user9253 Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 08:52 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Latching Relay Redux Attached is an untried circuit to reduce contactor current using PWM. The TC648 costs less than $2. It will start up at 100 percent duty cycle to pull in the master contactor. Then it will hold with PWM at reduced current. The progressive transfer type switch will normally be operated in the center position but can be full up to bypass the PWM circuit. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=376783#376783 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/contactor_pwm_789.pdf ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:56:09 AM PST US From: "Vern Little" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Producing pdf or xps files with ExpressSCH I=99m replying to my own message with an update: Before anyone else comments on my messages, please try to read carefully the original posting. I don=99t need work-arounds, new software downloads or converting hundreds of schematics to a new package. All I need to know is if others have the same problems. Better yet, if they do, please report it to ExpressPCB. They are dragging their feet on acknowledging this bug and until others complain, a fix won=99t happen. Applying pressure to these guys is the only way to correct their indifferent customer service. Yes, their software is free, but it drives a lot of business their way. Thanks! From: Vern Little Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2012 8:20 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Producing pdf or xps files with ExpressSCH For those of you using ExpressSCH/ExpressPCB, I have been corresponding with technical support at expresspcb.com about a =98printing problem=99. I would like to product .pdf files for multi-sheet ExpressSCH files. When I do this, I get multiple dialogs (one per sheet), and multiple single-page files as the output rather than one file with all sheets. I have confirmed this bug on XP, Vista and Win7 on two different computers. Further investigation gives me the same problem with .xps output (not that anyone cares about this format). I=99ve also found that when I print to a physical printer, multiple print jobs are created in the queue. The physical print issue is not really a problem. I have some schematics that are 20 pages long that I wish to publish and share in pdf format. For example are my electrical system designs for my RV-9A and Harmon Rocket and several designs for electronic gadgets that may be of interest. I=99m curious if anyone else has this problem. An easy way to test it is to try to print as an .xps file, which is supported on all versions of Windows. Thanks, Vern. No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 06/26/12 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:16:05 AM PST US From: "Dick Wildman" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Engine start on Z14 with different size batteries Question; See below. How is the test performed to see if the battery has at least 70% capacity? Dick Wildman 7S5 > If you plan to frequent remote locations, then keeping a > sharp eye on the condition of the larger battery is > important. You need to replace it when it drops to 70% > or less of capacity . . . this isn't an endurance issue, > it's a cranking issue for ventures into higher risk airports. > > Being able to 'stack' the 7.5 a.h. battery on top of a soggy > 17 a.h. battery is poor insurance irrespective of wire > sizes. > > > Bob . . . > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:44:12 AM PST US From: Bob Meyers Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Latching Relay Redux Just a note, I got one of these Tyco EV200 for use in my Sonex with an Aerovee Volkswagen conversion with a 20 amp alternator. I got mine on eBay for about $60 three years ago and they seem to be in that same ballpark today on ebay. I went from a measured contractor draw of 0.7A to 0.13A. The product is very robust and the amperage savings can almost operate my EFIS. Bob Meyers Flight testing completed, now flying Sonex N982SX. Web Site Index http://N982SX.com ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:35:41 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Engine start on Z14 with different size batteries From: Bill Check out the two page pdf from Bob's web site: Battery Replacement - a plan for throwing in the towel. . . a capacity test fixture. Regards - Bill On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 11:14 AM, Dick Wildman wrote: > dick@minetfiber.com> > > Question; > > See below. How is the test performed to see if the battery has at least > 70% capacity? > > Dick Wildman > 7S5 > > > If you plan to frequent remote locations, then keeping a >> sharp eye on the condition of the larger battery is >> important. You need to replace it when it drops to 70% >> or less of capacity . . . this isn't an endurance issue, >> it's a cranking issue for ventures into higher risk airports. >> >> Being able to 'stack' the 7.5 a.h. battery on top of a soggy >> 17 a.h. battery is poor insurance irrespective of wire >> sizes. >> >> >> Bob . . . >> > > >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:58:52 PM PST US From: "Dick Wildman" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Engine start on Z14 with different size batteries Thanks. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 12:34 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Engine start on Z14 with different size batteries Check out the two page pdf from Bob's web site: Battery Replacement - a plan for throwing in the towel . . . a capacity test fixture. Regards - Bill On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 11:14 AM, Dick Wildman wrote: Question; See below. How is the test performed to see if the battery has at least 70% capacity? Dick Wildman 7S5 If you plan to frequent remote locations, then keeping a sharp eye on the condition of the larger battery is important. You need to replace it when it drops to 70% or less of capacity . . . this isn't an endurance issue, it's a cranking issue for ventures into higher risk airports. Being able to 'stack' the 7.5 a.h. battery on top of a soggy 17 a.h. battery is poor insurance irrespective of wire sizes. Bob . . . -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List http://forums.matronics.com le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:15:57 PM PST US From: Peter Pengilly Subject: AeroElectric-List: Resistance fuel senders to 2 gauges Guys, I've recently re-built my panel and added an EFIS, updated the radios, taken out the Expbus2 and included an endurance bus. As I already had a pair of fuel gauges I thought I would retain them to avoid booting the EFIS when I wanted to find out how much fuel is loaded before flight. I have regular resistance fuel senders and wired the gauges in parallel with the EFIS. I should have realised that the apparent resistance now seen by the fuel gauges has decreased, so their reading decreases when the EFIS is switched on. This isn't a problem for the EFIS as I can calibrate them accordingly. But it would be good if the fuel gauges were more accurate when the EFIS is on. So my question is, is there a straight forward way to share a resistance sender with 2 gauges without impacting the calibration of either gauge? Peter ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:08:08 PM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Engine start on Z14 with different size batteries Bob Barrows I like your idea. Why not use all the capability available even if the batteries are different sizes. I know I don't have a regular capacity checking schedule for my Z-14 batteries. Flipping a paralleling switch is safer than messing with a boost on the lake or hand propping when all alone in the boonies. Unless you install a ground service plug, carry matching cables, and have a vehicle handy, I can't say I've ever enjoyed boosting an airplane with jumper cables and an open cowl. That little battery can supply over 100 amps if the main battery is very weak or failed so I would favor at least 8awg to get everything I could out of it even if the difference in resistance is small over a short length of wire. Heavier wire tends to mean heavier lower resistance lugs as well. One of those little batteries will start my subaru all by itself in the summer although mine do auto parallel during cranking. If the batteries and xfeed contactor are beside each other like mine are there isn't much of a weight penalty. Sure #4 is overkill but I used it mainly because I already had #4 welding cable on hand for the run up to the starter as well as the lugs and a method of installing them. It also lets me compare battery cranking current by disconnecting them one at a time and cranking the engine with the ignition off. Ken (Z-14 with two 8ah batteries and liking it) On 28/06/2012 11:47 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > At 04:40 AM 6/28/2012, you wrote: > >> In my architecture Bus 1 with the big battery is the sole starter >> cranking bus for normal operations. Accordingly all "starter current >> path" wires on Bus 1 are 2 AWG to reduce resistance during engine start. > > Unless your batteries are in the tail, 2AWG is heavier > than necessary but certainly not an electrical performance > issue. > >> By comparison I calculate that the largest wire on Bus 2 could be 8 >> AWG for normal operations on that bus including Xfeed operations to >> bus 2 (for non cranking operations). > > If your batteries are up front and the small battery > is not intended to crank the engine, then probably 12AWG > is sufficient on the aux alternator side . . . > > >> However it occurs to me that if my Bus 1 battery (Odyssey 680) was >> struggling to crank the engine in a remore location I would be tempted >> to switch on the Xfeed and get whatever current boost I could from the >> smaller Odyssey 310 on bus 2. >> >> My question is this: What size wire do I need to incorporate in the >> "starter current" path of bus 2 to facilitate assisted engine cranking >> on the odd occasion from the smaller battery. Presumably bigger would >> always be better....but what's reasonable. > > We're talking seconds here. 20A through a 22 AWG wire > wont 'burn' the wire. 12AWG or perhaps 10AWG in your aux > alternator system is quite adequate to the task even > if you find yourself tempted to 'boost' the larger battery's > abilities with the smaller battery. But I'll suggest that > a ground power system capable of jump-starting from a > ground vehicle is a much better hedge against soggy batteries > in remote locations. > > If you plan to frequent remote locations, then keeping a > sharp eye on the condition of the larger battery is > important. You need to replace it when it drops to 70% > or less of capacity . . . this isn't an endurance issue, > it's a cranking issue for ventures into higher risk airports. > > Being able to 'stack' the 7.5 a.h. battery on top of a soggy > 17 a.h. battery is poor insurance irrespective of wire > sizes. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:53:05 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Resistance fuel senders to 2 gauges At 05:13 PM 6/28/2012, you wrote: Guys, I've recently re-built my panel and added an EFIS, updated the radios, taken out the Expbus2 and included an endurance bus. As I already had a pair of fuel gauges I thought I would retain them to avoid booting the EFIS when I wanted to find out how much fuel is loaded before flight. I have regular resistance fuel senders and wired the gauges in parallel with the EFIS. I should have realised that the apparent resistance now seen by the fuel gauges has decreased, so their reading decreases when the EFIS is switched on. This isn't a problem for the EFIS as I can calibrate them accordingly. But it would be good if the fuel gauges were more accurate when the EFIS is on. So my question is, is there a straight forward way to share a resistance sender with 2 gauges without impacting the calibration of either gauge? Variable resistor transducers must be "powered up" by their mated instrument. When you tie two resistance measurement instruments onto the same sensor, their "power up biases" add together and upsets the readings of both. What you'll need to do is tell the EFIS to work on a variable VOLTAGE input and turn off it's internal excitation of the remote sensor. Then allow the original instrument to POWER the transducer. Finally teach the EFIS how to read it. Bob . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.