---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 07/10/12: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:14 AM - Re: instrument panel connectors (BobsV35B@aol.com) 2. 04:26 AM - Re: instrument panel connectors (James Kilford) 3. 06:58 AM - Re: Z12 Alternator Amps (Steve Stearns) 4. 09:41 AM - grounding procedures (bob noffs) 5. 10:56 AM - Re: grounding procedures (Dave Saylor) 6. 11:35 AM - Re: grounding procedures (Dj Merrill) 7. 11:50 AM - Re: grounding procedures (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 12:21 PM - Re: grounding procedures (David Lloyd) 9. 12:43 PM - Ground jumping on Z-14 (Chris Barber) 10. 12:57 PM - Re: Ground jumping on Z-14 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 01:21 PM - Re: grounding procedures (bob noffs) 12. 02:03 PM - Re: grounding procedures (Peter Pengilly) 13. 02:04 PM - Re: Ground jumping on Z-14 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 02:07 PM - Re: grounding procedures (F. Tim Yoder) 15. 03:01 PM - Re: grounding procedures (James Robinson) 16. 09:07 PM - OT: batteries in series on maintainer (rayj) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:14:48 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: instrument panel connectors Good Morning Allan, A little over twenty years ago I set up my Bonanza floating panel so as to make it easily removable. I had a lot of switches mounted on the panel so there were a lot of connections other than the usual stock connectors on the individual instruments. What I did was arrange to have just one static line and one pitot line going to the panel. The rest of that plumbing stayed with the removed panel. I used stock wrench removable B nut connectors for those two lines as well as all other plumbing. For all of the miscellaneous electrical items I installed a standard 60 pin CPC connector. Used about forty of the available spots. The CPC series of connectors use the same machined pins as do the sub D connectors. That has worked well for the last twenty plus years. I can remove the panel in five minutes and reinstall it in less than ten minutes. Total number of electrical connectors and tubing on the panel is less than ten. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 7/10/2012 12:43:09 A.M. Central Daylight Time, aaaron@tvp.com.au writes: If I were to make my instrument panel (mainly steam guages) removable, what would be the best type of connectors to use from a reliability, noise and maintenance perspective. I need to think about power, sensors and radio/audio. I realise that this may introduce some unreliability into the system - just wondering if I were to do this, what are the best type of connectors to use. Thanks - Allan ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:26:30 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: instrument panel connectors From: James Kilford On mine, the radios & GPS are on a separate tray, which gets left in place when the panel is removed. Toggle switches are on a separate permanently-installed sub-panel. Apart from that, there are the following types of connectors: Engine instruments: 9-pin d-sub (all UMA instruments) Stall warner light: Mate-n-lok Annunciator panel: Mate-n-lok Intercom: 9-pin d-sub Turn co-ordinator: wire-lockable Amphenol connector (to suit t/c) Pitot / static: quick-disconnect fittings. Rev counter: quick-disconnect fitting supplied with it (UMA again) Vacuum gauges: haven't thought about these yet! I really like the mate-n-lok connectors and have used them throughout the plane for various connections. FWIW. James On 10 July 2012 10:13, wrote: > ** > Good Morning Allan, > > A little over twenty years ago I set up my Bonanza floating panel so as to > make it easily removable. I had a lot of switches mounted on the panel so > there were a lot of connections other than the usual stock connectors on > the individual instruments. > > What I did was arrange to have just one static line and one pitot line > going to the panel. The rest of that plumbing stayed with the removed > panel. I used stock wrench removable B nut connectors for those two lines > as well as all other plumbing. For all of the miscellaneous electrical > items I installed a standard 60 pin CPC connector. Used about forty of the > available spots. The CPC series of connectors use the same machined pins as > do the sub D connectors. That has worked well for the last twenty plus > years. > > I can remove the panel in five minutes and reinstall it in less than ten > minutes. Total number of electrical connectors and tubing on the panel is > less than ten. > > Happy Skies, > > Old Bob > > > In a message dated 7/10/2012 12:43:09 A.M. Central Daylight Time, > aaaron@tvp.com.au writes: > > If I were to make my instrument panel (mainly steam guages) removable, > what would be the best type of connectors to use from a reliability, noise > and maintenance perspective. I need to think about power, sensors and > radio/audio. I realise that this may introduce some unreliability into the > system - just wondering if I were to do this, what are the best type of > connectors to use. > Thanks - Allan > > * > * > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:29 AM PST US From: Steve Stearns Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z12 Alternator Amps Regarding the unexpected slowly rising to too high current reading when switching to the backup alternator, one thing I would check for is that the wrong shunt is in the alternate alternator current patch (leading to the high, but I suspect false, reading) and that the indicator/glass-panel has a very strong low-pass response (leading to the slow rise). Steve Stearns Boulder/Longmont, Colorado CSA,EAA,IAC,AOPA,PE,ARRL,BARC (but ignorant none-the-less) Restoring (since 1/07) and flying again (8/11!): N45FC O235 Longeze Cothern/Friling CF1 (~1000 Hrs) Flying (since 9/86): N43732 A65 Taylorcraft BC12D ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:41:02 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: grounding procedures From: bob noffs hi all, lately i have been filling my plane out of 5 gal. plastic cans and i am finding it not too time consuming. the biggest reason is higher octane mogas than i can get at the airport. anyway.............i need some advice on grounding.i have a 12 volt pump mounted and it is powered by a battery 20 feet away. i have a handheld switch . i set the plastic can on the table and fuel is transferred thru vinyl tubing. at the airplane end is a metal filter. pumps a gallon a minute. i plan to set up a ground to the exhaust pipe [all tanks are grounded to the engine] but i do not know how to ground the pump or hoses. any advice would be appreciated. bob noffs ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:56:53 AM PST US From: Dave Saylor Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: grounding procedures My understanding is that the greatest danger comes from a spark jumping between the container and the filler neck. To prevent that, I always very consciously keep the spout in contact with the filler neck. When I'm finished filling, I methodically drag the spout away from the opening before breaking contact. That way, if a spark jumps the gap, it doesn't happen near the filler opening. The worst accident I've heard of (I met the victim) illustrates some valuable lessons. He was pouring fuel from a bucket through a funnel into a wing. He got the spark/flash, and it wouldn't have been as horrible if he hadn't instinctively jumped back and spilled the bucket all over himself. He's lucky to be alive but he'll never be the same. So another point is to use a closed container with a smallish neck and opening. That way the flash doesn't ignite the entire volume, and it doesn't spill as fast if it's dropped. I've been told that grounding a plastic container is very difficult. I'm curious to hear what others have to say. Dave Saylor 831-750-0284 CL On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 9:37 AM, bob noffs wrote: > hi all, > lately i have been filling my plane out of 5 gal. plastic cans and i am > finding it not too time consuming. the biggest reason is higher octane mogas > than i can get at the airport. > anyway.............i need some advice on grounding.i have a 12 volt pump > mounted and it is powered by a battery 20 feet away. i have a handheld > switch . i set the plastic can on the table and fuel is transferred thru > vinyl tubing. at the airplane end is a metal filter. pumps a gallon a > minute. i plan to set up a ground to the exhaust pipe [all tanks are > grounded to the engine] but i do not know how to ground the pump or hoses. > any advice would be appreciated. > bob noffs > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:35:09 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: grounding procedures From: Dj Merrill On 07/10/2012 12:37 PM, bob noffs wrote: i plan to set up a ground to the exhaust pipe > [all tanks are grounded to the engine] but i do not know how to ground > the pump or hoses. any advice would be appreciated. Hi Bob, If you don't mind spending a small amount of money, might I suggest a different container? The really cheap option if you want to continue using a 5 gallon container, is an all metal safety can, such as: http://www.tractorsupply.com/eagle-safety-gas-can-5-gal--3958668 Drill a hole in the handle and attach a flexible grounding wire (Lowes, about $19) http://www.lowes.com/pd_348276-273-5977001_0__?productId=3645156&Ntt=steel+cable&pl=1¤tURL=&facetInfo For something a little more fancy, search for "portable fuel caddy" on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=15+gallon+fuel+tank#/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=portable+fuel+caddy&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Aportable+fuel+caddy I ended up buying a 15 gallon metal fuel container from the local Tractor Supply store, mounted it in my truck, and added one of their 12v GPI EZ-8 Fuel Pumps, which uses conductive hoses. I attached a grounding line between the the tank and pump, and to the aircraft (using the Lowes steel cable above and a simple spring clamp for the airplane end), and since the fuel pump uses conductive hoses it also provides another path for grounding. I probably have $300 in total for this setup, but it is arguably as "safe" as the airport's fuel truck in terms of grounding, and I can use it for all of the toys at home, too. http://www.tractorsupply.com/gpi-reg-ez-8-fuel-pump-1-10-hp-3-4-in-inlet-3858004 http://www.egascans.com/15-gallon-gas-cans/ I'd be very concerned using a plastic fuel can, and vinyl transfer line, neither of which can be grounded safely. -Dj ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:50:14 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: grounding procedures At 11:37 AM 7/10/2012, you wrote: hi all, lately i have been filling my plane out of 5 gal. plastic cans and i am finding it not too time consuming. the biggest reason is higher octane mogas than i can get at the airport. anyway.............i need some advice on grounding.i have a 12 volt pump mounted and it is powered by a battery 20 feet away. i have a handheld switch . i set the plastic can on the table and fuel is transferred thru vinyl tubing. at the airplane end is a metal filter. pumps a gallon a minute. i plan to set up a ground to the exhaust pipe [all tanks are grounded to the engine] but i do not know how to ground the pump or hoses. any advice would be appreciated. I had this conversation with fellow who stopped in at our airport for fuel way back when. He was flying one of the Rutan Ez airplanes (all plastic) and as I fueled him, he expressed concerns about vapor fires while transferring fuel in the hangar next to his house. I suggested that one could take a cue from the heavy iron airplanes fitted with single point fueling ports. You can avoid vapor/spillage issues entirely when access to the tanks is fitted with a auto shut-off quick- connect like those used in hydraulic systems: [] The fitting might even replace the tank's water drains. You could craft a water-inspection tool to access this port and fit your fuel transfer hose with the mating fitting. Remove the fuel cap to fill. You can watch down the filler cap to effect the appropriate time to shut off flow but without placing anything conductive and/or static prone in the vicinity of the filler cap. He thought he would do that for his airplane . . . but never saw him again or got any feedback on the technique. Seems like one could fill a tank with zero chance for spilled fuel and/or generation of sparks near the vented vapors. If it's good for a Boeing or a Hawker, it might be just as good for an RV. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:21:28 PM PST US From: "David Lloyd" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: grounding procedures This is a very worth while thread.... as some time or another, fueling with portable containers can bite you... Some suggestions to add to others replying..... * be especially aware of the static spark problem on hotter, drier days.. * the flowing fuel itself generates static voltage, again, dry days are worse. * some insert a type of copper ground wire inside the fueling line itself so that it is in contact with the fuel from end to end; plastic container to funnel and aircraft. * plastic containers as mentioned before are the worst for fueling when they are used directly on the wing pouring. If on the end of an extended fuel hose via a pump, that is different but, still a problem as the vinyl hose could easily build up a static charge. That is where the copper wire running the whole length inside the hose would help drain off any building charge. * again, as mentioned earlier it is important to figure a method to ground the fuel contain, hoses, etc. to the tank being filled. If done properly, no static of any consequence should build to the point of a discharge. Hopefully, others will add to and correct this list. I also have a personal example of what this kind of accident can do. A local gal, who was a 1st class ultralights pilot and instructor, was filling her wing tank via a plastic container on a warm, dry day in Oregon. A spark jumped, fire ensued instantly and she too accidently got fuel splashed on her as she jumped down. Ultralights was a total loss and she spent years trying to get her body damage corrected with surgery. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Saylor" Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 10:54 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: grounding procedures > > > My understanding is that the greatest danger comes from a spark > jumping between the container and the filler neck. > > To prevent that, I always very consciously keep the spout in contact > with the filler neck. When I'm finished filling, I methodically drag > the spout away from the opening before breaking contact. That way, if > a spark jumps the gap, it doesn't happen near the filler opening. > > The worst accident I've heard of (I met the victim) illustrates some > valuable lessons. He was pouring fuel from a bucket through a funnel > into a wing. He got the spark/flash, and it wouldn't have been as > horrible if he hadn't instinctively jumped back and spilled the bucket > all over himself. He's lucky to be alive but he'll never be the same. > So another point is to use a closed container with a smallish neck > and opening. That way the flash doesn't ignite the entire volume, and > it doesn't spill as fast if it's dropped. > > I've been told that grounding a plastic container is very difficult. > I'm curious to hear what others have to say. > > Dave Saylor > 831-750-0284 CL > > > On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 9:37 AM, bob noffs wrote: >> hi all, >> lately i have been filling my plane out of 5 gal. plastic cans and i am >> finding it not too time consuming. the biggest reason is higher octane >> mogas >> than i can get at the airport. >> anyway.............i need some advice on grounding.i have a 12 volt pump >> mounted and it is powered by a battery 20 feet away. i have a handheld >> switch . i set the plastic can on the table and fuel is transferred thru >> vinyl tubing. at the airplane end is a metal filter. pumps a gallon a >> minute. i plan to set up a ground to the exhaust pipe [all tanks are >> grounded to the engine] but i do not know how to ground the pump or >> hoses. >> any advice would be appreciated. >> bob noffs >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:43:45 PM PST US From: Chris Barber Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ground jumping on Z-14 Sorry if this is too basic but I am wondering about being able to jump star t my Velocity. I am looking at adding one of the sockets available with pl ug the standard cables hook to. it is only two screws, but it is a pain to remove them to gain access to my battery. Now that I have flown (as of Ju ne 9, 2012) I have noted on one occasion that I left my EFIS on too long an d drained the batteries....actually my secondary battery, and the system re ally did not like it. The secondary low voltage light screaming....uh, bli nking at me was quite bothersome. Once charged up again, it seemed happy. My question. If I am wiring in one of these sockets do I wire to just one battery or to both to allow charging of both at the same time or would this not be the way it worked. Or, wire it to one battery and turn on the cros sover switch to allow charging of both. Currently I will hook my charger t o one of the other battery and charge them individually should the need dev elop. Other than me leaving the EFIS on this has not been an issue as of l ate since I got past some proof of concept wire and engine experimentation. This all may be overkill now that it seems my stuff is working pretty well and the screws are not that big a deal, but I am curious. Thanks Chris Barber Houston Velocity N17010 Rotary 13b turbo ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:57:38 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground jumping on Z-14 At 02:40 PM 7/10/2012, you wrote: Sorry if this is too basic but I am wondering about being able to jump start my Velocity. I am looking at adding one of the sockets available with plug the standard cables hook to. it is only two screws, but it is a pain to remove them to gain access to my battery. Now that I have flown (as of June 9, 2012) I have noted on one occasion that I left my EFIS on too long and drained the batteries....actually my secondary battery, and the system really did not like it. The secondary low voltage light screaming....uh, blinking at me was quite bothersome. Once charged up again, it seemed happy. My question. If I am wiring in one of these sockets do I wire to just one battery or to both to allow charging of both at the same time or would this not be the way it worked. Or, wire it to one battery and turn on the crossover switch to allow charging of both. Currently I will hook my charger to one of the other battery and charge them individually should the need develop. Other than me leaving the EFIS on this has not been an issue as of late since I got past some proof of concept wire and engine experimentation. Chris, Is there AC mains power in your hangar? How about a 3 or 4 pin plug that wires TWO maintainers to your ship's batteries when plugged in. These are low cost, accurate chargers that would be isolated from each other during charging/maintaining the batteries. I would be helpful to know what architecture you are using for a dual battery setup. What are your plan-b procedures for continued flight with a failed alternator? You menion Z-14 . . . do you have dual alternators on the Rotary engine? How did you happen to run down both batteries having left one accessory turned on? If the smaller alternator is having trouble charging the battery while running accessories on its bus, you can close the cross-feed contactor and use the main alternator to get both batteries topped off. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:21:18 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: grounding procedures From: bob noffs i am thinking of pushing a copper wire thru the vinyl hose from each end [an end in the can and an end in the aircraft] and when i get to the metal pump i am thinking i can clamp the wire between the vinyl tube wall and the metal barb on the pump. the pump will then be grounded. also ground the plane. how bout that? bob noffs On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 2:20 PM, David Lloyd wrote: > skywagon@charter.net> > > This is a very worth while thread.... as some time or another, fueling > with portable containers can bite you... > Some suggestions to add to others replying..... > > * be especially aware of the static spark problem on hotter, drier days.. > * the flowing fuel itself generates static voltage, again, dry days are > worse. > * some insert a type of copper ground wire inside the fueling line itself > so that it is in contact with the fuel from end to end; plastic container > to funnel and aircraft. > * plastic containers as mentioned before are the worst for fueling when > they are used directly on the wing pouring. If on the end of an extended > fuel hose via a pump, that is different but, still a problem as the vinyl > hose could easily build up a static charge. That is where the copper wire > running the whole length inside the hose would help drain off any building > charge. > * again, as mentioned earlier it is important to figure a method to ground > the fuel contain, hoses, etc. to the tank being filled. If done properly, > no static of any consequence should build to the point of a discharge. > > Hopefully, others will add to and correct this list. > > I also have a personal example of what this kind of accident can do. A > local gal, who was a 1st class ultralights pilot and instructor, was > filling her wing tank via a plastic container on a warm, dry day in Oregon. > A spark jumped, fire ensued instantly and she too accidently got fuel > splashed on her as she jumped down. Ultralights was a total loss and she > spent years trying to get her body damage corrected with surgery. Dave > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Saylor" **gmail.com > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 10:54 AM > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: grounding procedures > > >> dave.saylor.aircrafters@**gmail.com > >> >> My understanding is that the greatest danger comes from a spark >> jumping between the container and the filler neck. >> >> To prevent that, I always very consciously keep the spout in contact >> with the filler neck. When I'm finished filling, I methodically drag >> the spout away from the opening before breaking contact. That way, if >> a spark jumps the gap, it doesn't happen near the filler opening. >> >> The worst accident I've heard of (I met the victim) illustrates some >> valuable lessons. He was pouring fuel from a bucket through a funnel >> into a wing. He got the spark/flash, and it wouldn't have been as >> horrible if he hadn't instinctively jumped back and spilled the bucket >> all over himself. He's lucky to be alive but he'll never be the same. >> So another point is to use a closed container with a smallish neck >> and opening. That way the flash doesn't ignite the entire volume, and >> it doesn't spill as fast if it's dropped. >> >> I've been told that grounding a plastic container is very difficult. >> I'm curious to hear what others have to say. >> >> Dave Saylor >> 831-750-0284 CL >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 9:37 AM, bob noffs wrote: >> >>> hi all, >>> lately i have been filling my plane out of 5 gal. plastic cans and i am >>> finding it not too time consuming. the biggest reason is higher octane >>> mogas >>> than i can get at the airport. >>> anyway.............i need some advice on grounding.i have a 12 volt pump >>> mounted and it is powered by a battery 20 feet away. i have a handheld >>> switch . i set the plastic can on the table and fuel is transferred thru >>> vinyl tubing. at the airplane end is a metal filter. pumps a gallon a >>> minute. i plan to set up a ground to the exhaust pipe [all tanks are >>> grounded to the engine] but i do not know how to ground the pump or >>> hoses. >>> any advice would be appreciated. >>> bob noffs >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:03:22 PM PST US From: Peter Pengilly Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: grounding procedures Hi Bob, I has a similar set up a while ago. I believe the danger is static produced by the flow of fuel through the plastic hose, with a charge building up on the nozzle jumping to the airplane and igniting and vapour near the filler neck. I used a piece of copper plumbing pipe as a filler spout and soldered some thick speaker cable to it. I connected that to the airplane exhaust to make the airplane and filler spout at the same potential. I also used steel fuel cans and ran the speaker wire. wound around the pipe, back to the filler can and connected with a large croc clip. The pump motor was also hooked up to avoid any static build up. You can also connect the whole lot to a steel stake in the ground if you really want to. I used a small 7ah battery to power the whole thing - it would pump 5gals in about 3 minutes. It worked quite well. Hope this helps, Peter On 10/07/2012 17:37, bob noffs wrote: > hi all, > lately i have been filling my plane out of 5 gal. plastic cans and i > am finding it not too time consuming. the biggest reason is higher > octane mogas than i can get at the airport. > anyway.............i need some advice on grounding.i have a 12 volt > pump mounted and it is powered by a battery 20 feet away. i have a > handheld switch . i set the plastic can on the table and fuel is > transferred thru vinyl tubing. at the airplane end is a metal filter. > pumps a gallon a minute. i plan to set up a ground to the exhaust pipe > [all tanks are grounded to the engine] but i do not know how to > ground the pump or hoses. any advice would be appreciated. > bob noffs > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:04:24 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground jumping on Z-14 At 02:40 PM 7/10/2012, you wrote: Sorry if this is too basic but I am wondering about being able to jump start my Velocity. I missed this . . . if you want to actually crank the engine using ground power, you'll need a robust connector capable of carrying the current. You only need to connect it to the main battery in Z-14 . . . the aux battery gets connected too by closing the battery master switches and cross-feed contactors. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:07:36 PM PST US From: "F. Tim Yoder" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: grounding procedures Don't use a plastic gas can! Replace it with a steel one. You can't afford to use cheap parts, equipment, on airplanes. :-) Also, if you are flying a composite plane, the the gas cap filler ring is not grounded unless the builder ran a ground wire to the ships ground. When filling from a steel can, touch the nozzle to the ring and your body is ground to earth. Do this even when filling off a truck or fuel island. You only get one chance! ----- Original Message ----- From: bob noffs To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 1:19 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: grounding procedures i am thinking of pushing a copper wire thru the vinyl hose from each end [an end in the can and an end in the aircraft] and when i get to the metal pump i am thinking i can clamp the wire between the vinyl tube wall and the metal barb on the pump. the pump will then be grounded. also ground the plane. how bout that? bob noffs On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 2:20 PM, David Lloyd wrote: This is a very worth while thread.... as some time or another, fueling with portable containers can bite you... Some suggestions to add to others replying..... * be especially aware of the static spark problem on hotter, drier days.. * the flowing fuel itself generates static voltage, again, dry days are worse. * some insert a type of copper ground wire inside the fueling line itself so that it is in contact with the fuel from end to end; plastic container to funnel and aircraft. * plastic containers as mentioned before are the worst for fueling when they are used directly on the wing pouring. If on the end of an extended fuel hose via a pump, that is different but, still a problem as the vinyl hose could easily build up a static charge. That is where the copper wire running the whole length inside the hose would help drain off any building charge. * again, as mentioned earlier it is important to figure a method to ground the fuel contain, hoses, etc. to the tank being filled. If done properly, no static of any consequence should build to the point of a discharge. Hopefully, others will add to and correct this list. I also have a personal example of what this kind of accident can do. A local gal, who was a 1st class ultralights pilot and instructor, was filling her wing tank via a plastic container on a warm, dry day in Oregon. A spark jumped, fire ensued instantly and she too accidently got fuel splashed on her as she jumped down. Ultralights was a total loss and she spent years trying to get her body damage corrected with surgery. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Saylor" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 10:54 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: grounding procedures My understanding is that the greatest danger comes from a spark jumping between the container and the filler neck. To prevent that, I always very consciously keep the spout in contact with the filler neck. When I'm finished filling, I methodically drag the spout away from the opening before breaking contact. That way, if a spark jumps the gap, it doesn't happen near the filler opening. The worst accident I've heard of (I met the victim) illustrates some valuable lessons. He was pouring fuel from a bucket through a funnel into a wing. He got the spark/flash, and it wouldn't have been as horrible if he hadn't instinctively jumped back and spilled the bucket all over himself. He's lucky to be alive but he'll never be the same. So another point is to use a closed container with a smallish neck and opening. That way the flash doesn't ignite the entire volume, and it doesn't spill as fast if it's dropped. I've been told that grounding a plastic container is very difficult. I'm curious to hear what others have to say. Dave Saylor 831-750-0284 CL On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 9:37 AM, bob noffs wrote: hi all, lately i have been filling my plane out of 5 gal. plastic cans and i am finding it not too time consuming. the biggest reason is higher octane mogas than i can get at the airport. anyway.............i need some advice on grounding.i have a 12 volt pump mounted and it is powered by a battery 20 feet away. i have a handheld switch . i set the plastic can on the table and fuel is transferred thru vinyl tubing. at the airplane end is a metal filter. pumps a gallon a minute. i plan to set up a ground to the exhaust pipe [all tanks are grounded to the engine] but i do not know how to ground the pump or hoses. any advice would be appreciated. bob noffs -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List http://forums.matronics.com le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:01:12 PM PST US From: James Robinson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: grounding procedures Smoe thing that was determined awhile back- by the CAFE foundation was th at the best way to get rid of static was to wipe around the fuel cap with a damp rag before fueling.- This is what i do with my Glasair=0AJim=0A=0A -=0AJames Robinson=0AGlasair lll N79R=0ASpanish Fork UT U77=0A=0A=0A___ _____________________________=0A From: bob noffs =0ATo: a eroelectric-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 1:19 PM=0ASu bject: Re: AeroElectric-List: grounding procedures=0A =0A=0Ai am thinking o f pushing a copper wire thru the vinyl hose from each end [an end in the ca n and an end in the aircraft] and when i get to the metal pump i am thinkin g i can clamp the wire between the vinyl tube wall and the metal barb on th e pump. the pump will then be grounded. also ground the plane. how bout tha t?=0A-bob noffs=0A=0A=0AOn Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 2:20 PM, David Lloyd =0A>=0A>This is a very worth while thread. ... as some time or another, fueling with portable containers can bite you. ..=0A>Some suggestions to add to others replying.....=0A>=0A>* be especiall y aware of the static spark problem on hotter, drier days..=0A>* the flowin g fuel itself generates static voltage, again, dry days are worse.=0A>* som e insert a type of copper ground wire inside the fueling line itself so tha t it is in contact with the fuel from end to end; plastic container to funn el and aircraft.=0A>* plastic containers as mentioned before are the worst for fueling when they are used directly on the wing pouring. -If on the e nd of an extended fuel hose via a pump, that is different but, still a prob lem as the vinyl hose could easily build up a static charge. -That is whe re the copper wire running the whole length inside the hose would help drai n off any building charge.=0A>* again, as mentioned earlier it is important to figure a method to ground the fuel contain, hoses, etc. to the tank bei ng filled. -If -done properly, no static of any consequence should buil d to the point of a discharge.=0A>=0A>Hopefully, others will add to and cor rect this list.=0A>=0A>I also have a personal example of what this kind of accident can do. -A local gal, who was a 1st class ultralights pilot and instructor, was filling her wing tank via a plastic container on a warm, dr y day in Oregon. -A spark jumped, fire ensued instantly and she too accid ently got fuel splashed on her as she jumped down. -Ultralights was a tot al loss and she spent years trying to get her body damage corrected with su rgery. -Dave=0A>=0A>=0A>----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Saylor" =0A>To: =0A>Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 10:54 AM=0A>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-Lis t: grounding procedures=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave Saylor =0A>>=0A>>My understand ing is that the greatest danger comes from a spark=0A>>jumping between the container and the filler neck.=0A>>=0A>>To prevent that, I always very cons ciously keep the spout in contact=0A>>with the filler neck. -When I'm fin ished filling, I methodically drag=0A>>the spout away from the opening befo re breaking contact. -That way, if=0A>>a spark jumps the gap, it doesn't happen near the filler opening.=0A>>=0A>>The worst accident I've heard of ( I met the victim) illustrates some=0A>>valuable lessons. -He was pouring fuel from a bucket through a funnel=0A>>into a wing. -He got the spark/fl ash, and it wouldn't have been as=0A>>horrible if he hadn't instinctively j umped back and spilled the bucket=0A>>all over himself. -He's lucky to be alive but he'll never be the same.=0A>>So another point is to use a closed container with a smallish neck=0A>>and opening. -That way the flash does n't ignite the entire volume, and=0A>>it doesn't spill as fast if it's drop ped.=0A>>=0A>>I've been told that grounding a plastic container is very dif ficult.=0A>>I'm curious to hear what others have to say.=0A>>=0A>>Dave Sayl or=0A>>831-750-0284-CL=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 9:37 AM , bob noffs wrote:=0A>>=0A>>hi all,=0A>>>-lately i hav e been filling my plane out of 5 gal. plastic cans and i am=0A>>>finding it not too time consuming. the biggest reason is higher octane mogas=0A>>>tha n i can get at the airport.=0A>>>-anyway.............i need some advice o n grounding.i have a 12 volt pump=0A>>>mounted and it is powered by a batte ry 20 feet away. i have a handheld=0A>>>switch . i set the plastic can on t he table and fuel is transferred thru=0A>>>vinyl tubing. at the airplane en d is a metal filter. pumps a gallon a=0A>>>minute. i plan to set up a groun d to the exhaust pipe [all tanks are=0A>>>grounded to the engine] but i do not know how to ground - the pump or hoses.=0A>>>any advice would be appr eciated.=0A>>>=0A-bob noffs=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>=0A> =0A>======================= ==============0A>-List" target="_blank">http:// www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List=0A>======== ====0A>http://forums.matronics.com=0A>========== ==0A>le, List Admin.=0A>="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =0A>======================= ============= ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:07:47 PM PST US From: rayj Subject: AeroElectric-List: OT: batteries in series on maintainer Greetings, I recall a prohibition on charging batteries in series at the series voltage. I have 2 6V sealed lead/acid batteries. I would like to hook the series connected 6V batteries in parallel with several 12V lead/acid batteries on a maintainer. They would be fully charged before I put them on the maintainer. I would consider holding the voltage in the 6V batteries at 80% of full charge acceptable. Thanks for any insight/advice/warnings. do not archive -- Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.