Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:00 AM - Re: Solid state trim controller (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 08:13 AM - Qualifying CB's (Janet Amtmann)
3. 08:38 AM - Re: Re: AEC Modules (Jeffrey W. Skiba)
4. 10:51 AM - Source for DP3T ON-ON-MOM Toggle Switch (jdubner)
5. 11:29 AM - Re: Source for DP3T ON-ON-MOM Toggle Switch (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS)
6. 12:04 PM - Re: Source for DP3T ON-ON-MOM Toggle Switch (The Kuffels)
7. 12:04 PM - Re: Source for DP3T ON-ON-MOM Toggle Switch (Harley)
8. 12:05 PM - Re: Over-voltage Circuit Breaker Trips (dlj04)
9. 12:42 PM - Re: Source for DP3T ON-ON-MOM Toggle Switch (jdubner)
10. 12:59 PM - Re: Re: Source for DP3T ON-ON-MOM Toggle Switch (Harley)
11. 01:06 PM - Re: Re: Source for DP3T ON-ON-MOM Toggle Switch (Harley)
12. 03:17 PM - Re: Source for DP3T ON-ON-MOM Toggle Switch (jdubner)
13. 03:54 PM - Re: Source for DP3T ON-ON-MOM Toggle Switch (Ed Holyoke)
14. 07:25 PM - Re: Qualifying CB's (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
15. 07:47 PM - Re: Re: Over-voltage Circuit Breaker Trips (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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Subject: | Solid state trim controller |
At 11:53 PM 7/17/2012, you wrote:
><nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
> I think it more prudent to offer 'single channel'
> assemblies as shown so that the builder may choose
> to assemble as many as necessary for their
> particular project.
I should point out that while this offering does
included some 'solid state' components for the purpose
of controlling supply voltage to the trim motor, it's
more properly referred to as a "relay deck with speed
control".
The first time I conducted an MTBF study on a
product (multi-speed trim controller for the Lears)
I was feeling pretty smug about the calculated
numbers falling out when only the solid state
devices and their assembly processes were being
plugged in. But got a shock when I added the 4PDT
power relay into the mix. The relay alone dropped
the MTBF numbers by 75%!
Besides illuminating the fallacies embedded in
naive acceptance of "plugging in the numbers",
it did serve as a wake-up notice on the RELATIVE
reliability of relays versus transistors. If
one's project design goals are driven strongly
by MTBF numbers, then it's a good thing to minimize
the use of relays.
On the other hand, our airplanes fly on average
50 hours a year and in relatively benign environmental
conditions. Further, designing for failure tolerance
offers an opportunity to exploit the unique features
of relays with little concern for risks.
Relays are stone simple, very low ON resistance and
perfect isolation between controlling signal and switched
load. The biggest down side is power consumption of
the coil and volumetric considerations for building
miniature devices.
I chose to stay with relays for this product because
of their unique ability to provide a dead-short across
the connections to the spinning armature at 'trim
command release'. This feature provides 'dynamic
braking' which is a legacy design goal of many motor
driven systems like flaps, landing gear, cooling
doors, etc.
This design also provides automatic tolerance for
conflicting commands between two trim switches.
If one switch is calling for trim up while the other
calls for trim down . . . the motor simply stops.
There's a family of designs available with
differences driven by alternative design goals.
I'm not intent upon arguing with those goals but
I think it useful to describe the thinking behind
the AEC9041 Trim Relay Deck for PM Motors so that
the buyer can assess their own design goal fit
with products being offered.
Bob . . .
Message 2
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Bob, I have a question: How can a CB be qualified at currents many times
(3000A) it's rated breaker current? Is this a calculated current or real
measured current? Does the breaker not trip a long time before this type
of overcurrent is reached? What happens to the contacts (they must arc)
during this type of overcurrent, or, if I imagine (I have no access to
them) the MIL specs correctly, does the CB go completely undamaged?
Do not archive.
Regards, Jurgen Amtmann
Message 3
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Any updates on the below ? or if I missed the update sorry just guide me to
the update please
Thanks in advance
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 10:15 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: AEC Modules
--> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
At 08:35 AM 7/1/2010, you wrote:
>--> <eschlanser@yahoo.com>
>
>Hi Bob,
> Is the paralysis resolving? I'm wondering when the 9004 and 9011
>modules will be available.
>Thanks,
>Eric Schlanser
>W-10/Lycoming O320 with Z-13 and maybe Z-24
I did some more think-work on them while on the
round trip to Denver. Got the packaging decisions
resolved. I'll do a board layout on the 9004 Monday
and get some proof-of-concept parts built for
my software guy to play with. Should be within
the next 60 cays. By the way, I'll be looking for
"Beta testers" for the 9004. I'll provide a ship
set of 9004 parts to someone who is already flying
regularly if they'll install the parts and
give me feedback on installation/operational/performance
issues. Email me directly.
The 9011 design is done. I just need to inventory
up on parts and show the kids how to assemble and
test them. We'll do both programs together.
Bob . . .
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Message 4
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Subject: | Source for DP3T ON-ON-MOM Toggle Switch |
[Pardon me if this is a duplicate. I twice attempted to post it via the email
interface with no apparent success. Using the web interface now.]
Does anyone have a source for the Apem 644H/2-1R toggle switch (DP3T ON-ON-MOM) in the USA? (It's a non-stock, minimum-25 item at DigiKey.) I'd like to use them to control dual PMags in this manner: http://gikonelectrics.blogspot.com/2008/09/p-mag-wiring.html
Thanks,
Joe
Independence, OR
http://www.mail2600.com/position
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=378654#378654
Message 5
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Subject: | Source for DP3T ON-ON-MOM Toggle Switch |
Does anyone have a source for the Apem 644H/2-1R toggle switch (DP3T
ON-ON-MOM) in the USA? (It's a non-stock, minimum-25 item at DigiKey.) I'd
like to use them to control dual PMags in this manner:
http://gikonelectrics.blogspot.com/2008/09/p-mag-wiring.html
Thanks,
Joe
Here is one that might work.
Roger
http://www.ee-usa.com/warehouse/eaton8511k15
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Source for DP3T ON-ON-MOM Toggle Switch |
Joe,
<< toggle switch (DP3T ON-ON-MOM) >>
Mouser (mouser.com) has 3 in stock of part number 633-M204701-RO for $15.14
each with solder lugs. If you can tolerate PC pins instead of solder lugs
they have 520 in stock of non-catalog part number 633-M2047SD3W03/U switches
at $13.57 each. Search M2047 from the Mouser main page. Mouser has a
long history of being friendly to the small quantity buyer. I recommend
them highly.
Tom Kuffel
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Source for DP3T ON-ON-MOM Toggle Switch |
Joe...
I've always had good luck with Mouser...and they have a minimum
order of 1 on this switch at ~$18:
www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Apem/644H-21R/?qs=llnlROTr2NZTe%252bbqFmLTF1MyeWy8Xh6svYUAHfvIsqY%3d
Here's the Tiny URL in case the full length URL gets wrapped:
http://tinyurl.com/bvh4ghy
Harley
-----------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Does anyone have a source for the Apem 644H/2-1R toggle switch (DP3T
> ON-ON-MOM) in the USA? (It's a non-stock, minimum-25 item at DigiKey.) I'd
> like to use them to control dual PMags in this manner:
> http://gikonelectrics.blogspot.com/2008/09/p-mag-wiring.html
>
> Thanks,
> Joe
>
>
> Here is one that might work.
>
> Roger
>
> http://www.ee-usa.com/warehouse/eaton8511k15
>
>
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Over-voltage Circuit Breaker Trips |
If it's true that a circuit breaker is damaged and can't be used once
it's been tripped with a dead short, why would you ever use a circuit
breaker? You might as well have a fuse.
As Bob mentioned, it is possible to create a fault current in excess of
a circuit breaker's rated interrupting capacity, but you're not going to
do it with a light lead-acid (or gel, or AGM, or LiPo) battery in a
small airplane with any kind of terminals and wire between the battery
and the breaker. You *might* exceed 5000 amps with a fresh NiCd battery
from a turbine aircraft *if* the CB and OVP were connected to a bus bar
or right at the battery terminals, but that would be about what it would
take.
--
David Josephson
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Source for DP3T ON-ON-MOM Toggle Switch |
> Here is one that might work.
>
> Roger
>
> http://www.ee-usa.com/warehouse/eaton8511k15
Eaton makes a fine switch but at $30 each, screw terminals, and not in stock, I'll
pass.
> Mouser (mouser.com) has 3 in stock of part number 633-M204701-RO for $15.14
> each with solder lugs. If you can tolerate PC pins instead of solder lugs
> they have 520 in stock of non-catalog part number 633-M2047SD3W03/U switches
> at $13.57 each. ...
>
> Tom Kuffel
I hadn't considered anything other than Faston terminals but may re-think soldered
leads if all else fails. Thanks.
>
> I've always had good luck with Mouser...and they have a minimum order of 1 on
this switch at ~$18:
> www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Apem/644H-21R/?qs=llnlROTr2NZTe%252bbqFmLTF1MyeWy8Xh6svYUAHfvIsqY%3d
>
> Here's the Tiny URL in case the full length URL gets wrapped:
> http://tinyurl.com/bvh4ghy
>
> Harley
>
Harley, I had been looking at that particular switch but the Mouser description
says "ON-ON-ON" instead of "ON-ON-MOM" and the part number is slightly different.
That's most likely the switch I want but Mouser hasn't responded to my
request for more clarification.
So I'm still looking for an Apem 644H/2-1R.
Thanks,
Joe
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=378680#378680
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Source for DP3T ON-ON-MOM Toggle Switch |
Joe...
Actually, the description says ON-ON-MOM...you just have to look
at the data sheet where it defines the part numbers. Check out
the data sheet for the link I gave you (click on the "Documents"
tab, then "Data Sheet":)...that switch part number that you asked
about is definitely an ON-ON-Mom...that's what the IR means. The
picture and description on the page is just for the general
series of that switch...the data sheet states that it is ON-ON-ON
only if the IR suffix is not present...and it is present, so it's
On-On-MOM.
That is the exact switch you asked for...and I agree with Tom
...Mouser has never done me wrong...good people to work with.
Harley
-----------------------------------------------------------------
On 7/18/2012 3:37 PM, jdubner wrote:
>
>
>> Here is one that might work.
>>
>> Roger
>>
>> http://www.ee-usa.com/warehouse/eaton8511k15
>
> Eaton makes a fine switch but at $30 each, screw terminals, and not in stock,
I'll pass.
>
>
>> Mouser (mouser.com) has 3 in stock of part number 633-M204701-RO for $15.14
>> each with solder lugs. If you can tolerate PC pins instead of solder lugs
>> they have 520 in stock of non-catalog part number 633-M2047SD3W03/U switches
>> at $13.57 each. ...
>>
>> Tom Kuffel
>
> I hadn't considered anything other than Faston terminals but may re-think soldered
leads if all else fails. Thanks.
>
>
>> I've always had good luck with Mouser...and they have a minimum order of 1 on
this switch at ~$18:
>> www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Apem/644H-21R/?qs=llnlROTr2NZTe%252bbqFmLTF1MyeWy8Xh6svYUAHfvIsqY%3d
>>
>> Here's the Tiny URL in case the full length URL gets wrapped:
>> http://tinyurl.com/bvh4ghy
>>
>> Harley
>>
> Harley, I had been looking at that particular switch but the Mouser description
says "ON-ON-ON" instead of "ON-ON-MOM" and the part number is slightly different.
That's most likely the switch I want but Mouser hasn't responded to my
request for more clarification.
>
> So I'm still looking for an Apem 644H/2-1R.
>
> Thanks,
> Joe
>
>
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Source for DP3T ON-ON-MOM Toggle Switch |
Sorry, I meant 1R, not IR! And I noticed there is a data sheet
link right under the switch description as well. Might save a
couple of clicks if you use that instead of going to the document
tab! ;-) ..the definition of the part number is on page 3.
Harley
-----------------------------------------------------------------
On 7/18/2012 3:55 PM, Harley wrote:
> Joe...
>
> Actually, the description says ON-ON-MOM...you just have to
> look at the data sheet where it defines the part numbers. Check
> out the data sheet for the link I gave you (click on the
> "Documents" tab, then "Data Sheet":)...that switch part number
> that you asked about is definitely an ON-ON-Mom...that's what
> the IR means. The picture and description on the page is just
> for the general series of that switch...the data sheet states
> that it is ON-ON-ON only if the IR suffix is not present...and
> it is present, so it's On-On-MOM.
>
> That is the exact switch you asked for...and I agree with Tom
> ...Mouser has never done me wrong...good people to work with.
>
> Harley
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> On 7/18/2012 3:37 PM, jdubner wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Here is one that might work.
>>>
>>> Roger
>>>
>>> http://www.ee-usa.com/warehouse/eaton8511k15
>> Eaton makes a fine switch but at $30 each, screw terminals, and not in stock,
I'll pass.
>>
>>
>>> Mouser (mouser.com) has 3 in stock of part number 633-M204701-RO for $15.14
>>> each with solder lugs. If you can tolerate PC pins instead of solder lugs
>>> they have 520 in stock of non-catalog part number 633-M2047SD3W03/U switches
>>> at $13.57 each. ...
>>>
>>> Tom Kuffel
>> I hadn't considered anything other than Faston terminals but may re-think soldered
leads if all else fails. Thanks.
>>
>>
>>> I've always had good luck with Mouser...and they have a minimum order of 1
on this switch at ~$18:
>>> www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Apem/644H-21R/?qs=llnlROTr2NZTe%252bbqFmLTF1MyeWy8Xh6svYUAHfvIsqY%3d
>>>
>>> Here's the Tiny URL in case the full length URL gets wrapped:
>>> http://tinyurl.com/bvh4ghy
>>>
>>> Harley
>>>
>> Harley, I had been looking at that particular switch but the Mouser description
says "ON-ON-ON" instead of "ON-ON-MOM" and the part number is slightly different.
That's most likely the switch I want but Mouser hasn't responded to
my request for more clarification.
>>
>> So I'm still looking for an Apem 644H/2-1R.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Joe
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Source for DP3T ON-ON-MOM Toggle Switch |
harley(at)AgelessWings.co wrote:
> Joe...
>
> That is the exact switch you asked for...
Thanks, Harley -- I'll order a couple.
--
Joe
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=378706#378706
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Subject: | Re: Source for DP3T ON-ON-MOM Toggle Switch |
Try this one:
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/2NT1-50
Ed Holyoke
On 7/18/2012 10:49 AM, jdubner wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "jdubner"<jdubner@yahoo.com>
>
> [Pardon me if this is a duplicate. I twice attempted to post it via the email
interface with no apparent success. Using the web interface now.]
>
> Does anyone have a source for the Apem 644H/2-1R toggle switch (DP3T ON-ON-MOM) in the USA? (It's a non-stock, minimum-25 item at DigiKey.) I'd like to use them to control dual PMags in this manner: http://gikonelectrics.blogspot.com/2008/09/p-mag-wiring.html
>
> Thanks,
> Joe
> Independence, OR
> http://www.mail2600.com/position
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=378654#378654
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Qualifying CB's |
At 10:12 AM 7/18/2012, you wrote:
>Bob, I have a question: How can a CB be qualified at currents many
>times (3000A) it's rated breaker current? Is this a calculated
>current or real measured current? Does the breaker not trip a long
>time before this type of overcurrent is reached? What happens to
>the contacts (they must arc) during this type of overcurrent, or, if
>I imagine (I have no access to them) the MIL specs correctly, does
>the CB go completely undamaged?
When you connect a breaker to a bus for the purpose
of protecting a downstream wire, there is also a practical
limit on how long a breaker can sustain current flow
at what ever the bus will deliver while it's deciding
to trip.
For example, a 28v aircraft battery can easily deliver
2000 to 4000 amps of current if you hard-fault the
battery bus to ground. Admittedly, the little ol'
5A breaker trips VERY fast . . . on the order of 1 to
2 milliseconds. The point of this test is to insure
that devices crafted to protect say 22AWG wires
from burning are not themselves at risk for damage
by what ever current the energy source can deliver.
This is why all breakers have two classes of current
rating (1) trip current for downstream protection
and (2) fault/rupture/interruption current ratings
where the breaker will not be damaged during the
time between onset and clearing of fault.
The third breaker featured in the ShopNotes I cited
was a good example of a 5A breaker that had perhaps
a 100A or less fault current rating. It may be
attractive to some system designers but it's certainly
not something you'd find in a TC aircraft.
Bob . . .
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: Over-voltage Circuit Breaker Trips |
At 02:04 PM 7/18/2012, you wrote:
If it's true that a circuit breaker is damaged and can't be used once
it's been tripped with a dead short, why would you ever use a circuit
breaker? You might as well have a fuse.
As Bob mentioned, it is possible to create a fault current in excess
of a circuit breaker's rated interrupting capacity, but you're not
going to do it with a light lead-acid (or gel, or AGM, or LiPo)
battery in a small airplane with any kind of terminals and wire
between the battery and the breaker. You *might* exceed 5000 amps
with a fresh NiCd battery from a turbine aircraft *if* the CB and OVP
were connected to a bus bar or right at the battery terminals, but
that would be about what it would take.
Exactly. There was a great kerfuffle in a Walmart
bag here on the List over this kind of data:
Emacs!
This is an exemplar plot of breaker performance when subjected
to over-current impulses of up to 10x rated current. Certain
individuals chose to interpret these data not only as performance
scatter but as not-to-exceed limits as well.
The discussion was rooted in a projected crowbar trip current
of something like 700A which was in fact, greatly exaggerated.
There was also some consideration of single pulse current limits
on the SCR which is core to the crowbar ov module's operation.
When installed as depicted in AEC drawings, typical trip
currents were on the order of 150 amps . . . I did some tests
at B&C at 300 amps. Far less than the max interrupt rating of
the breaker and well within the capability of the SCRs.
A hard fault on an RG battery can easily exceed 1000A but
that's still less than what these miniature breakers are
qualified to stand off.
Bob . . .
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