---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 07/18/12: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:00 AM - Re: Solid state trim controller (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 08:13 AM - Qualifying CB's (Janet Amtmann) 3. 08:38 AM - Re: Re: AEC Modules (Jeffrey W. Skiba) 4. 10:51 AM - Source for DP3T ON-ON-MOM Toggle Switch (jdubner) 5. 11:29 AM - Re: Source for DP3T ON-ON-MOM Toggle Switch (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS) 6. 12:04 PM - Re: Source for DP3T ON-ON-MOM Toggle Switch (The Kuffels) 7. 12:04 PM - Re: Source for DP3T ON-ON-MOM Toggle Switch (Harley) 8. 12:05 PM - Re: Over-voltage Circuit Breaker Trips (dlj04) 9. 12:42 PM - Re: Source for DP3T ON-ON-MOM Toggle Switch (jdubner) 10. 12:59 PM - Re: Re: Source for DP3T ON-ON-MOM Toggle Switch (Harley) 11. 01:06 PM - Re: Re: Source for DP3T ON-ON-MOM Toggle Switch (Harley) 12. 03:17 PM - Re: Source for DP3T ON-ON-MOM Toggle Switch (jdubner) 13. 03:54 PM - Re: Source for DP3T ON-ON-MOM Toggle Switch (Ed Holyoke) 14. 07:25 PM - Re: Qualifying CB's (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 07:47 PM - Re: Re: Over-voltage Circuit Breaker Trips (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:00:34 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Solid state trim controller At 11:53 PM 7/17/2012, you wrote: > > > I think it more prudent to offer 'single channel' > assemblies as shown so that the builder may choose > to assemble as many as necessary for their > particular project. I should point out that while this offering does included some 'solid state' components for the purpose of controlling supply voltage to the trim motor, it's more properly referred to as a "relay deck with speed control". The first time I conducted an MTBF study on a product (multi-speed trim controller for the Lears) I was feeling pretty smug about the calculated numbers falling out when only the solid state devices and their assembly processes were being plugged in. But got a shock when I added the 4PDT power relay into the mix. The relay alone dropped the MTBF numbers by 75%! Besides illuminating the fallacies embedded in naive acceptance of "plugging in the numbers", it did serve as a wake-up notice on the RELATIVE reliability of relays versus transistors. If one's project design goals are driven strongly by MTBF numbers, then it's a good thing to minimize the use of relays. On the other hand, our airplanes fly on average 50 hours a year and in relatively benign environmental conditions. Further, designing for failure tolerance offers an opportunity to exploit the unique features of relays with little concern for risks. Relays are stone simple, very low ON resistance and perfect isolation between controlling signal and switched load. The biggest down side is power consumption of the coil and volumetric considerations for building miniature devices. I chose to stay with relays for this product because of their unique ability to provide a dead-short across the connections to the spinning armature at 'trim command release'. This feature provides 'dynamic braking' which is a legacy design goal of many motor driven systems like flaps, landing gear, cooling doors, etc. This design also provides automatic tolerance for conflicting commands between two trim switches. If one switch is calling for trim up while the other calls for trim down . . . the motor simply stops. There's a family of designs available with differences driven by alternative design goals. I'm not intent upon arguing with those goals but I think it useful to describe the thinking behind the AEC9041 Trim Relay Deck for PM Motors so that the buyer can assess their own design goal fit with products being offered. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:13:12 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Qualifying CB's From: Janet Amtmann Bob, I have a question: How can a CB be qualified at currents many times (3000A) it's rated breaker current? Is this a calculated current or real measured current? Does the breaker not trip a long time before this type of overcurrent is reached? What happens to the contacts (they must arc) during this type of overcurrent, or, if I imagine (I have no access to them) the MIL specs correctly, does the CB go completely undamaged? Do not archive. Regards, Jurgen Amtmann ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:38:10 AM PST US From: "Jeffrey W. Skiba" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: AEC Modules Any updates on the below ? or if I missed the update sorry just guide me to the update please Thanks in advance Jeff -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 10:15 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: AEC Modules --> At 08:35 AM 7/1/2010, you wrote: >--> > >Hi Bob, > Is the paralysis resolving? I'm wondering when the 9004 and 9011 >modules will be available. >Thanks, >Eric Schlanser >W-10/Lycoming O320 with Z-13 and maybe Z-24 I did some more think-work on them while on the round trip to Denver. Got the packaging decisions resolved. I'll do a board layout on the 9004 Monday and get some proof-of-concept parts built for my software guy to play with. Should be within the next 60 cays. By the way, I'll be looking for "Beta testers" for the 9004. I'll provide a ship set of 9004 parts to someone who is already flying regularly if they'll install the parts and give me feedback on installation/operational/performance issues. Email me directly. The 9011 design is done. I just need to inventory up on parts and show the kids how to assemble and test them. We'll do both programs together. Bob . . . ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:51:54 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Source for DP3T ON-ON-MOM Toggle Switch From: "jdubner" [Pardon me if this is a duplicate. I twice attempted to post it via the email interface with no apparent success. Using the web interface now.] Does anyone have a source for the Apem 644H/2-1R toggle switch (DP3T ON-ON-MOM) in the USA? (It's a non-stock, minimum-25 item at DigiKey.) I'd like to use them to control dual PMags in this manner: http://gikonelectrics.blogspot.com/2008/09/p-mag-wiring.html Thanks, Joe Independence, OR http://www.mail2600.com/position Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=378654#378654 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:29:10 AM PST US From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Source for DP3T ON-ON-MOM Toggle Switch Does anyone have a source for the Apem 644H/2-1R toggle switch (DP3T ON-ON-MOM) in the USA? (It's a non-stock, minimum-25 item at DigiKey.) I'd like to use them to control dual PMags in this manner: http://gikonelectrics.blogspot.com/2008/09/p-mag-wiring.html Thanks, Joe Here is one that might work. Roger http://www.ee-usa.com/warehouse/eaton8511k15 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:04:22 PM PST US From: "The Kuffels" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Source for DP3T ON-ON-MOM Toggle Switch Joe, << toggle switch (DP3T ON-ON-MOM) >> Mouser (mouser.com) has 3 in stock of part number 633-M204701-RO for $15.14 each with solder lugs. If you can tolerate PC pins instead of solder lugs they have 520 in stock of non-catalog part number 633-M2047SD3W03/U switches at $13.57 each. Search M2047 from the Mouser main page. Mouser has a long history of being friendly to the small quantity buyer. I recommend them highly. Tom Kuffel ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:04:27 PM PST US From: Harley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Source for DP3T ON-ON-MOM Toggle Switch Joe... I've always had good luck with Mouser...and they have a minimum order of 1 on this switch at ~$18: www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Apem/644H-21R/?qs=llnlROTr2NZTe%252bbqFmLTF1MyeWy8Xh6svYUAHfvIsqY%3d Here's the Tiny URL in case the full length URL gets wrapped: http://tinyurl.com/bvh4ghy Harley ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Does anyone have a source for the Apem 644H/2-1R toggle switch (DP3T > ON-ON-MOM) in the USA? (It's a non-stock, minimum-25 item at DigiKey.) I'd > like to use them to control dual PMags in this manner: > http://gikonelectrics.blogspot.com/2008/09/p-mag-wiring.html > > Thanks, > Joe > > > Here is one that might work. > > Roger > > http://www.ee-usa.com/warehouse/eaton8511k15 > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:05:19 PM PST US From: dlj04 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Over-voltage Circuit Breaker Trips If it's true that a circuit breaker is damaged and can't be used once it's been tripped with a dead short, why would you ever use a circuit breaker? You might as well have a fuse. As Bob mentioned, it is possible to create a fault current in excess of a circuit breaker's rated interrupting capacity, but you're not going to do it with a light lead-acid (or gel, or AGM, or LiPo) battery in a small airplane with any kind of terminals and wire between the battery and the breaker. You *might* exceed 5000 amps with a fresh NiCd battery from a turbine aircraft *if* the CB and OVP were connected to a bus bar or right at the battery terminals, but that would be about what it would take. -- David Josephson ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:42:52 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Source for DP3T ON-ON-MOM Toggle Switch From: "jdubner" > Here is one that might work. > > Roger > > http://www.ee-usa.com/warehouse/eaton8511k15 Eaton makes a fine switch but at $30 each, screw terminals, and not in stock, I'll pass. > Mouser (mouser.com) has 3 in stock of part number 633-M204701-RO for $15.14 > each with solder lugs. If you can tolerate PC pins instead of solder lugs > they have 520 in stock of non-catalog part number 633-M2047SD3W03/U switches > at $13.57 each. ... > > Tom Kuffel I hadn't considered anything other than Faston terminals but may re-think soldered leads if all else fails. Thanks. > > I've always had good luck with Mouser...and they have a minimum order of 1 on this switch at ~$18: > www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Apem/644H-21R/?qs=llnlROTr2NZTe%252bbqFmLTF1MyeWy8Xh6svYUAHfvIsqY%3d > > Here's the Tiny URL in case the full length URL gets wrapped: > http://tinyurl.com/bvh4ghy > > Harley > Harley, I had been looking at that particular switch but the Mouser description says "ON-ON-ON" instead of "ON-ON-MOM" and the part number is slightly different. That's most likely the switch I want but Mouser hasn't responded to my request for more clarification. So I'm still looking for an Apem 644H/2-1R. Thanks, Joe Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=378680#378680 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:59:41 PM PST US From: Harley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Source for DP3T ON-ON-MOM Toggle Switch Joe... Actually, the description says ON-ON-MOM...you just have to look at the data sheet where it defines the part numbers. Check out the data sheet for the link I gave you (click on the "Documents" tab, then "Data Sheet":)...that switch part number that you asked about is definitely an ON-ON-Mom...that's what the IR means. The picture and description on the page is just for the general series of that switch...the data sheet states that it is ON-ON-ON only if the IR suffix is not present...and it is present, so it's On-On-MOM. That is the exact switch you asked for...and I agree with Tom ...Mouser has never done me wrong...good people to work with. Harley ----------------------------------------------------------------- On 7/18/2012 3:37 PM, jdubner wrote: > > >> Here is one that might work. >> >> Roger >> >> http://www.ee-usa.com/warehouse/eaton8511k15 > > Eaton makes a fine switch but at $30 each, screw terminals, and not in stock, I'll pass. > > >> Mouser (mouser.com) has 3 in stock of part number 633-M204701-RO for $15.14 >> each with solder lugs. If you can tolerate PC pins instead of solder lugs >> they have 520 in stock of non-catalog part number 633-M2047SD3W03/U switches >> at $13.57 each. ... >> >> Tom Kuffel > > I hadn't considered anything other than Faston terminals but may re-think soldered leads if all else fails. Thanks. > > >> I've always had good luck with Mouser...and they have a minimum order of 1 on this switch at ~$18: >> www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Apem/644H-21R/?qs=llnlROTr2NZTe%252bbqFmLTF1MyeWy8Xh6svYUAHfvIsqY%3d >> >> Here's the Tiny URL in case the full length URL gets wrapped: >> http://tinyurl.com/bvh4ghy >> >> Harley >> > Harley, I had been looking at that particular switch but the Mouser description says "ON-ON-ON" instead of "ON-ON-MOM" and the part number is slightly different. That's most likely the switch I want but Mouser hasn't responded to my request for more clarification. > > So I'm still looking for an Apem 644H/2-1R. > > Thanks, > Joe > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:06:58 PM PST US From: Harley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Source for DP3T ON-ON-MOM Toggle Switch Sorry, I meant 1R, not IR! And I noticed there is a data sheet link right under the switch description as well. Might save a couple of clicks if you use that instead of going to the document tab! ;-) ..the definition of the part number is on page 3. Harley ----------------------------------------------------------------- On 7/18/2012 3:55 PM, Harley wrote: > Joe... > > Actually, the description says ON-ON-MOM...you just have to > look at the data sheet where it defines the part numbers. Check > out the data sheet for the link I gave you (click on the > "Documents" tab, then "Data Sheet":)...that switch part number > that you asked about is definitely an ON-ON-Mom...that's what > the IR means. The picture and description on the page is just > for the general series of that switch...the data sheet states > that it is ON-ON-ON only if the IR suffix is not present...and > it is present, so it's On-On-MOM. > > That is the exact switch you asked for...and I agree with Tom > ...Mouser has never done me wrong...good people to work with. > > Harley > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > On 7/18/2012 3:37 PM, jdubner wrote: >> >> >>> Here is one that might work. >>> >>> Roger >>> >>> http://www.ee-usa.com/warehouse/eaton8511k15 >> Eaton makes a fine switch but at $30 each, screw terminals, and not in stock, I'll pass. >> >> >>> Mouser (mouser.com) has 3 in stock of part number 633-M204701-RO for $15.14 >>> each with solder lugs. If you can tolerate PC pins instead of solder lugs >>> they have 520 in stock of non-catalog part number 633-M2047SD3W03/U switches >>> at $13.57 each. ... >>> >>> Tom Kuffel >> I hadn't considered anything other than Faston terminals but may re-think soldered leads if all else fails. Thanks. >> >> >>> I've always had good luck with Mouser...and they have a minimum order of 1 on this switch at ~$18: >>> www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Apem/644H-21R/?qs=llnlROTr2NZTe%252bbqFmLTF1MyeWy8Xh6svYUAHfvIsqY%3d >>> >>> Here's the Tiny URL in case the full length URL gets wrapped: >>> http://tinyurl.com/bvh4ghy >>> >>> Harley >>> >> Harley, I had been looking at that particular switch but the Mouser description says "ON-ON-ON" instead of "ON-ON-MOM" and the part number is slightly different. That's most likely the switch I want but Mouser hasn't responded to my request for more clarification. >> >> So I'm still looking for an Apem 644H/2-1R. >> >> Thanks, >> Joe >> >> >> >> > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:17:24 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Source for DP3T ON-ON-MOM Toggle Switch From: "jdubner" harley(at)AgelessWings.co wrote: > Joe... > > That is the exact switch you asked for... Thanks, Harley -- I'll order a couple. -- Joe Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=378706#378706 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:54:44 PM PST US From: Ed Holyoke Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Source for DP3T ON-ON-MOM Toggle Switch Try this one: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/2NT1-50 Ed Holyoke On 7/18/2012 10:49 AM, jdubner wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "jdubner" > > [Pardon me if this is a duplicate. I twice attempted to post it via the email interface with no apparent success. Using the web interface now.] > > Does anyone have a source for the Apem 644H/2-1R toggle switch (DP3T ON-ON-MOM) in the USA? (It's a non-stock, minimum-25 item at DigiKey.) I'd like to use them to control dual PMags in this manner: http://gikonelectrics.blogspot.com/2008/09/p-mag-wiring.html > > Thanks, > Joe > Independence, OR > http://www.mail2600.com/position > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=378654#378654 > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:59 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Qualifying CB's At 10:12 AM 7/18/2012, you wrote: >Bob, I have a question: How can a CB be qualified at currents many >times (3000A) it's rated breaker current? Is this a calculated >current or real measured current? Does the breaker not trip a long >time before this type of overcurrent is reached? What happens to >the contacts (they must arc) during this type of overcurrent, or, if >I imagine (I have no access to them) the MIL specs correctly, does >the CB go completely undamaged? When you connect a breaker to a bus for the purpose of protecting a downstream wire, there is also a practical limit on how long a breaker can sustain current flow at what ever the bus will deliver while it's deciding to trip. For example, a 28v aircraft battery can easily deliver 2000 to 4000 amps of current if you hard-fault the battery bus to ground. Admittedly, the little ol' 5A breaker trips VERY fast . . . on the order of 1 to 2 milliseconds. The point of this test is to insure that devices crafted to protect say 22AWG wires from burning are not themselves at risk for damage by what ever current the energy source can deliver. This is why all breakers have two classes of current rating (1) trip current for downstream protection and (2) fault/rupture/interruption current ratings where the breaker will not be damaged during the time between onset and clearing of fault. The third breaker featured in the ShopNotes I cited was a good example of a 5A breaker that had perhaps a 100A or less fault current rating. It may be attractive to some system designers but it's certainly not something you'd find in a TC aircraft. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:47:28 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Over-voltage Circuit Breaker Trips At 02:04 PM 7/18/2012, you wrote: If it's true that a circuit breaker is damaged and can't be used once it's been tripped with a dead short, why would you ever use a circuit breaker? You might as well have a fuse. As Bob mentioned, it is possible to create a fault current in excess of a circuit breaker's rated interrupting capacity, but you're not going to do it with a light lead-acid (or gel, or AGM, or LiPo) battery in a small airplane with any kind of terminals and wire between the battery and the breaker. You *might* exceed 5000 amps with a fresh NiCd battery from a turbine aircraft *if* the CB and OVP were connected to a bus bar or right at the battery terminals, but that would be about what it would take. Exactly. There was a great kerfuffle in a Walmart bag here on the List over this kind of data: Emacs! This is an exemplar plot of breaker performance when subjected to over-current impulses of up to 10x rated current. Certain individuals chose to interpret these data not only as performance scatter but as not-to-exceed limits as well. The discussion was rooted in a projected crowbar trip current of something like 700A which was in fact, greatly exaggerated. There was also some consideration of single pulse current limits on the SCR which is core to the crowbar ov module's operation. When installed as depicted in AEC drawings, typical trip currents were on the order of 150 amps . . . I did some tests at B&C at 300 amps. Far less than the max interrupt rating of the breaker and well within the capability of the SCRs. A hard fault on an RG battery can easily exceed 1000A but that's still less than what these miniature breakers are qualified to stand off. Bob . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.