---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 09/14/12: 29 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:58 AM - Re: Backup battery for fuel pumps? (user9253) 2. 08:07 AM - SkyView power wires (user9253) 3. 08:18 AM - After 30 years... (Harley) 4. 08:20 AM - Re: Re: Backup battery for fuel pumps? (Robert Borger) 5. 08:37 AM - Re: After 30 years... (Robert Reed) 6. 08:44 AM - Re: Re: Backup battery for fuel pumps? (Roger & Jean Curtis) 7. 08:47 AM - Re: Re: Backup battery for fuel pumps? (Jeff Luckey) 8. 08:48 AM - Re: After 30 years... (Harley) 9. 08:57 AM - Re: SkyView power wires (John Grosse) 10. 09:51 AM - Re: Re: Backup battery for fuel pumps? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 10:02 AM - Re: After 30 years... (Bill Watson) 12. 10:03 AM - Re: After 30 years... (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 10:25 AM - Re: After 30 years... (Harley) 14. 10:27 AM - Re: SkyView power wires (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 10:33 AM - Re: Mag noise (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 16. 11:54 AM - Re: cable noises (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 17. 04:39 PM - Fuel Pressure Sensor search (John Loram) 18. 04:52 PM - Flap Control Schematic - will it work? (Robert Reed) 19. 05:22 PM - Re: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? (Daniel Hooper) 20. 05:57 PM - Re: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? (Jeff Luckey) 21. 06:27 PM - Re: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? (Robert Reed) 22. 06:36 PM - Re: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? (Robert Reed) 23. 06:37 PM - Re: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? (Robert Reed) 24. 06:50 PM - Re: Fuel Pressure Sensor search (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 25. 08:13 PM - Re: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? (Nati Niv) 26. 08:39 PM - Re: Fuel Pressure Sensor search (Richard E. Tasker) 27. 08:40 PM - Re: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? (Robert Reed) 28. 08:54 PM - Re: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? (Nati Niv) 29. 09:42 PM - Re: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? (Nati Niv) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:02 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Backup battery for fuel pumps? From: "user9253" This is not an electrical question, but relates to the previous question about fuel pumps. What are the pro and cons about plumbing fuel pumps in parallel compared to series? My concern is the failure of a check valve when fuel pumps are in parallel. The pilot might not be aware of a check valve failure until its associated pump also fails. Then the good pump will be circulating fuel in a loop through the failed check valve. The fuel pressure to the engine could be reduced. Or is this concern unwarranted? Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=383060#383060 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:07:18 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: SkyView power wires From: "user9253" Quote from SkyView installation manual: > Power Input > SkyView displays have a primary power input that is compatible with 12 volt and 24 volt systems (10 to 30 volts DC). There are two unterminated solid red primary power input wires (to reduce current loading in each wirethese are not for redundancy and both should be connected to the same power source) and two unterminated solid black primary ground wires. > Ensure that there is an appropriately rated circuit breaker or replaceable fuse on the primary power input. A 5 amp circuit breaker or replaceable fuse is sufficient for the majority of installations. Reference the Power Consumption Section of the System Planning Chapter for more information. I do not understand the reasoning for using two power wires instead of one larger wire. In fact, it would seem that just one small wire would handle the 5 amp load with ease. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=383063#383063 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:18:28 AM PST US From: Harley Subject: AeroElectric-List: After 30 years... Here it is...at last. After 30 years of working on N28EZ it's ready to go down to the hangar and join up with it's already finished wings, drain the tanks, do the weight and balance and call the FAA! And do whatever else I find is needed to get it flying. This was just a quick video with the cowlings on for appearance sake...I've already run it several times without the cowl to set the idle, check the gauges, temperatures, etc. It has dual P-mags and a Dynon D-180, Anywhere Map Pro, B&C alternator and starter, Microair radio and transponder, etc. All gauges, switches and readouts performed as expected in the earlier runs! RPM, voltages and temperatures were in the ball park. Modified Z13-8 wiring. Started with the Z13-8, then modified it as I went along. This last video, though, it couldn't wait for me to finish...at 2250 RPM, it jumped the right chock and tried to fly! http://youtu.be/LJVIl1ERwSA Harley Dixon Long EZ N28EZ (finally all done...just have to reassemble) Hangar 29 Canandaigua Airport, Canandaigua, NY ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:20:59 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Backup battery for fuel pumps? From: Robert Borger Joe, It all depends on the pump. On my Rotax 914 the standard arrangement is for two pumps in series, each paralleled with a check valve. In case a failed pump will not pass fuel there's a parallel check valve to ensure fuel flow. Odds of a check valve failure are approaching zero. You can make up a similar parallel setup with check valves on the output of each pump to ensure there's no back flow through a failed pump. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger@mac.com On Sep 14, 2012, at 9:56 AM, user9253 wrote: This is not an electrical question, but relates to the previous question about fuel pumps. What are the pro and cons about plumbing fuel pumps in parallel compared to series? My concern is the failure of a check valve when fuel pumps are in parallel. The pilot might not be aware of a check valve failure until its associated pump also fails. Then the good pump will be circulating fuel in a loop through the failed check valve. The fuel pressure to the engine could be reduced. Or is this concern unwarranted? Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=383060#383060 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:37:07 AM PST US From: Robert Reed Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: After 30 years... Contrats!!!- Maybe there is hope that I will eventually finish my KIS Cru iser as =0Awell.- Why is it that life keeps getting in the way of our mor e important =0Ahobbies???=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Harley =0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.co m=0ASent: Fri, September 14, 2012 10:19:34 AM=0ASubject: AeroElectric-List: After 30 years...=0A=0A=0A=0AHere it is...at last.- After 30 years of wo rking on N28EZ it's ready to go down =0Ato the hangar and join up with it's already finished wings,- drain the tanks, do =0Athe weight and balance a nd call the FAA! And do whatever else I find is needed =0Ato get it flying. =0A=0AThis was just a quick video with the cowlings on for appearance sake. ..I've =0Aalready run it several times without the cowl to set the idle, ch eck the gauges, =0Atemperatures, etc. It has dual P-mags and a Dynon D-180, Anywhere Map Pro, B&C =0Aalternator and starter,- Microair radio and tra nsponder, etc.- All gauges, =0Aswitches and readouts performed as expecte d in the earlier runs! RPM, voltages =0Aand temperatures were in the ball p ark. Modified Z13-8 wiring. Started with the =0AZ13-8, then modified it as I went along.- =0A=0A=0AThis last video, though, it couldn't wait for me to finish...at 2250 RPM, it =0Ajumped the right chock and tried to fly! =0A =0A=0Ahttp://youtu.be/LJVIl1ERwSA=0A=0AHarley Dixon=0ALong EZ N28EZ (finall y all done...just have to reassemble)=0AHangar 29 =0ACanandaigua Airport, C = =0A ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:44:31 AM PST US From: "Roger & Jean Curtis" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Backup battery for fuel pumps? This is not an electrical question, but relates to the previous question about fuel pumps. What are the pro and cons about plumbing fuel pumps in parallel compared to series? My concern is the failure of a check valve when fuel pumps are in parallel. The pilot might not be aware of a check valve failure until its associated pump also fails. Then the good pump will be circulating fuel in a loop through the failed check valve. The fuel pressure to the engine could be reduced. Or is this concern unwarranted? Joe I would think that you would normally do a fuel pump test as part of your preflight, i.e. turn each pump on one at a time and check pressure. This will check the pump op and the check valve. It is highly unlikely that you will have both a pump and a check valve failure simultaneously. Roger ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:47:49 AM PST US From: "Jeff Luckey" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Backup battery for fuel pumps? What does putting the pumps in series do for you? It seems that plumbing the pumps in parallel would accomplish fuel delivery and be a little simpler? _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Borger Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 08:21 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Backup battery for fuel pumps? Joe, It all depends on the pump. On my Rotax 914 the standard arrangement is for two pumps in series, each paralleled with a check valve. In case a failed pump will not pass fuel there's a parallel check valve to ensure fuel flow. Odds of a check valve failure are approaching zero. You can make up a similar parallel setup with check valves on the output of each pump to ensure there's no back flow through a failed pump. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger@mac.com On Sep 14, 2012, at 9:56 AM, user9253 wrote: This is not an electrical question, but relates to the previous question about fuel pumps. What are the pro and cons about plumbing fuel pumps in parallel compared to series? My concern is the failure of a check valve when fuel pumps are in parallel. The pilot might not be aware of a check valve failure until its associated pump also fails. Then the good pump will be circulating fuel in a loop through the failed check valve. The fuel pressure to the engine could be reduced. Or is this concern unwarranted? Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=383060#383060 - The --> &n======================== ======================= ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:48:00 AM PST US From: Harley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: After 30 years... When I retired, I thought that I would be able to zip right through it...but then I came down with a little medical problem...leukemia. Took 8 years to get to the point this year where the FAA finally approved me to fly again...meanwhile, I worked on the plane whenever I could...took time, but well worth it to hear it start and run...especially as well as it does with all the new gadgets on it! A lot of instrumentation changes since I first started it in 1982! Harley ----------------------------------------------------------------- On 9/14/2012 11:36 AM, Robert Reed wrote: > Contrats!!! Maybe there is hope that I will eventually finish > my KIS Cruiser as well. Why is it that life keeps getting in > the way of our more important hobbies??? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > *From:* Harley > *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Fri, September 14, 2012 10:19:34 AM > *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: After 30 years... > > > Here it is...at last. After 30 years of working on N28EZ it's > ready to go down to the hangar and join up with it's already > finished wings, drain the tanks, do the weight and balance and > call the FAA! And do whatever else I find is needed to get it > flying. > > This was just a quick video with the cowlings on for appearance > sake...I've already run it several times without the cowl to > set the idle, check the gauges, temperatures, etc. It has dual > P-mags and a Dynon D-180, Anywhere Map Pro, B&C alternator and > starter, Microair radio and transponder, etc. All gauges, > switches and readouts performed as expected in the earlier > runs! RPM, voltages and temperatures were in the ball park. > Modified Z13-8 wiring. Started with the Z13-8, then modified it > as I went along. > > This last video, though, it couldn't wait for me to finish...at > 2250 RPM, it jumped the right chock and tried to fly! > > http://youtu.be/LJVIl1ERwSA > > Harley Dixon > Long EZ N28EZ (finally all done...just have to reassemble) > Hangar 29 > Canandaigua Airport, Canandaigua, NY > > > *cs.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://wt;n" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution =========== > > * > * > > > * > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Date: 09/14/12 > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:57:13 AM PST US From: John Grosse Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SkyView power wires Have you asked the SkyView people? The rest of us can only guess at their rationale for the "why". Personally, I can't imagine any reason, but I have seen other applications where a larger wire would not fit in the connector and two smaller wires were used. John Grosse user9253 wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" > > Quote from SkyView installation manual: > >> > Power Input >> > SkyView displays have a primary power input that is compatible with 12 volt and 24 volt systems (10 to 30 volts DC). There are two unterminated solid red primary power input wires (to reduce current loading in each wirethese are not for redundancy and both should be connected to the same power source) and two unterminated solid black primary ground wires. >> > Ensure that there is an appropriately rated circuit breaker or replaceable fuse on the primary power input. A 5 amp circuit breaker or replaceable fuse is sufficient for the majority of installations. Reference the Power Consumption Section of the System Planning Chapter for more information. > > I do not understand the reasoning for using two power wires instead of one larger wire. In fact, it would seem that just one small wire would handle the 5 amp load with ease. > Joe > > -------- > Joe Gores ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:51:02 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Backup battery for fuel pumps? At 10:20 AM 9/14/2012, you wrote: Joe, It all depends on the pump. On my Rotax 914 the standard arrangement is for two pumps in series, each paralleled with a check valve. In case a failed pump will not pass fuel there's a parallel check valve to ensure fuel flow. Has anyone explored the cracking pressures for the two check valves built into Facet/Purolator style pumps? As Joe suggests, the probability of failure for a check valve (48 and 58) is very low. It might stick OPEN due to some obstruction and filters are supposed to stop that. Emacs! P For a pair of pumps plumbed in series, it seems that either pump would function with the other powered down unless the cracking pressure for valves in the inactive pump are too great and a low-pressure by-pass valved is called for. These pumps are MOST likely to quit due to lack of power. Given their all solid state, free-running excitation philosophy, See: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7150606.pdf . . . there is no part of this pump that is highly stressed or subject to wear. Dual pumps would address a HOST of ancillary failures like broken wires, bad switch, bad breaker, loss of buss, etc. Two, totally independent pumps/controls/protection/ power source pretty much covers the bases. This extra plumbing and check valve thing may be an exercise in unsubstantiated worrying. Some simple tests would confirm/deny validity of the concern. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:11 AM PST US From: Bill Watson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: After 30 years... Yes, it looks like it needs to fly. Congratulations! Bill Watson On 9/14/2012 11:17 AM, Harley wrote: > > Here it is...at last. After 30 years of working on N28EZ it's ready > to go down to the hangar and join up with it's already finished > wings, drain the tanks, do the weight and balance and call the FAA! > And do whatever else I find is needed to get it flying. > > This was just a quick video with the cowlings on for appearance > sake...I've already run it several times without the cowl to set the > idle, check the gauges, temperatures, etc. It has dual P-mags and a > Dynon D-180, Anywhere Map Pro, B&C alternator and starter, Microair > radio and transponder, etc. All gauges, switches and readouts > performed as expected in the earlier runs! RPM, voltages and > temperatures were in the ball park. Modified Z13-8 wiring. Started > with the Z13-8, then modified it as I went along. > > This last video, though, it couldn't wait for me to finish...at 2250 > RPM, it jumped the right chock and tried to fly! > > http://youtu.be/LJVIl1ERwSA > > Harley Dixon > Long EZ N28EZ (finally all done...just have to reassemble) > Hangar 29 > Canandaigua Airport, Canandaigua, NY ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:03:53 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: After 30 years... >This last video, though, it couldn't wait for me to finish...at 2250 >RPM, it jumped the right chock and tried to fly! Cool! Looks like you're getting close . . . but please consider acquiring on-purpose wheel chocks. Airplanes with the fans on the front can at least be tied to a post, pushers demand a different precaution. It would be a shame to drag the airplane back to the shop for repairs . . . or cart you to the hospital . . . Post some first flight photos and videos! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:26 AM PST US From: Harley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: After 30 years... Actually, that video was just a last minute thought...after I had the cowlings mounted, I though I'd take that just for my friends who would think it was even more unfinished if they could see the motor. I made the nose bumper from a hopper mount I rescued from work...it is hard rubber, molded around a steel plate with 3/8-16 threaded tube in it... I have a ring bolt that I thread into it and then lash that to the battery outside the plane when I want to keep it from moving...tying it down from the front! I use normal chocks as well...just not for that video! Pictures and videos will definitely be following. Harley ----------------------------------------------------------------- >> This last video, though, it couldn't wait for me to >> finish...at 2250 RPM, it jumped the right chock and tried to fly! > > Cool! Looks like you're getting close . . . but please > consider acquiring on-purpose wheel chocks. Airplanes > with the fans on the front can at least be tied to a > post, pushers demand a different precaution. It would > be a shame to drag the airplane back to the shop for > repairs . . . or cart you to the hospital . . . > > Post some first flight photos and videos! > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:27:08 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SkyView power wires > >I do not understand the reasoning for using two power wires instead >of one larger wire. In fact, it would seem that just one small wire >would handle the 5 amp load with ease. >Joe That IS a puzzlement . . . I don't recall the first time I saw doubled-up power and ground wires on radios . . . but it was some years back. Why would a designer think that paralleled 20AWG wires on a 0.5A continuous, 4A intermittent load be a good thing to do? I think I've seen it on more than one brand of radio. Reduced supply impedance? Not very likely. Increased redundancy? Hmmmm . . . more plausible. Redundancy is not well addressed . . . one of the wires could be bad and you\ wouldn't know it. I.e. redundancy that calls for periodic inspection to retain its value in the reliability tree. Current sharing on d-sub pins? Also plausible but again, the pins are not really being stressed that hard. The conundrum does not yield to present reasoning. If it were my radio, I'd do the paralleling thing with 6 inch, 22AWG wires in the pins dropped into a splice with 20AWG lead wire to power and ground. Robust . . . and doesn't let a perfectly good ground or power pin go to waste. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:33:14 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Mag noise >The shields should be grounded at the engine end only. >I think this may fix your problem. Thank you for your quick response to my problem. I have been wrestling with this for two weeks. Every book I have on the subject says to ground both ends of the shielding. In any event I took your advise and the noise is gone. Medicine Lodge brings back memories to me, I went to school at Emporia and my roomate was from there. I trained on B-29s at Smoky Hill Air Base in WWII. Thank you again for your help, it is much appreciated. Ed Dunn I think this is perhaps the third time this particular set of conditions propagated ignition noise into the rest of the airplane. I'm not sure I understand the exact mode of propagation for noise but whether we understand it or not, it's a demonstrably good thing to do. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:54:26 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: cable noises At 11:14 AM 9/14/2012, you wrote: Hello Bob, I don't really know if I'm writting this message to the right address, I actually wanted to post a message in the general forum but haven't figured out how to do so; so this is why I'm writing you. I see you're already signed up for a number of lists on matronics. You've probably discovered that you can join a conversation by simply replying to a message. You can start a new one by simply sending your query to aeroelectric-list@matronics.com This will start a new conversation titled with what ever words you put in the subject line. I'm a builder of an RV7A in Spain and just wanted to ask for some advise regarding the way that the antenna cables need to be routed inside the plane. In other words, I know that big pulses like the strobes will generate noise in the antena cables if they come close enough, but what about bundling several antenna cables together like the VOR, coms, gps and marker for example; can they interfere each other or cause noise to each other? Also besides the strobe power cables, what other cable should run far enough from the antenna cables typically, and also what is "far enough" reasonable? Actually, there's no practical value for separating properly installed coax cables from other properly installed system wires. In the heavy iron airplanes, every system installer will fight tooth and nail to secure space and volume in the airplane for his task. Wires running from one place to another MUST join with wires from any and all other systems who have found favor with the airframe turf-gods. Artfully designed and installed systems for aircraft will happily co-exist both for location of black-boxes and airframe wire routes. So bundle your wires for convenience and judicious used of space and $time$. If you find that you do have a problem, it's generally easier to fix the errors of installation than to put a band-aid on it (repositioning, ferrite beads, filters, etc.). Use good coax. RG-400/141/142 or LMR-195 and good practice for termination. You've got a 99.9% probability of being golden. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:39:37 PM PST US From: "John Loram" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Pressure Sensor search Searching for a low pressure 7.5psi (0.5 bar) fuel (avgas) pressure sensor. Can be either two or three terminal. thanks for leads (brands or unused items), -john- ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:52:41 PM PST US From: Robert Reed Subject: AeroElectric-List: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? All,=0A-=0AAttached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 position switch =0Ato control the flaps with LED indicators to show the po sition settings.- The =0Arotary switch will have a lever that not only gi ves a tactile feel indicating =0Aposition but will point to the LED.- I b elieve this setup will work but would =0Alike some review.- I have also i ncluded absolute limit switched to ensure that =0Aan over-run will not occu r due to a bad relay.=0A-=0ABob Reed ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:22:56 PM PST US From: Daniel Hooper Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? I like your idea, using simple limit switches and relays for position control, but it I'm having trouble with what will happen under the following condition: Say for the sake of clarity the flap positions are up, 10, 20, and 30.. The flaps are up, and the green LED is lit. I set flaps to 20, which will open the 10 switch, then the 20 switch. The flap movement completes and the 20 deg yellow LED lights. I set flaps back to 10, because I didn't mean to go all the way to 20. ... =46rom what I can see, the yellow 10 LED will be lit, but the flaps will not move from the 20 degree position. That is, to get the flaps to retract under any circumstance, you need to turn the knob to 'up'. It's possible I'm not seeing something though. You definitely should turn the LEDs around so that they "point" to ground, and you'll either need to use 12V LEDs with internal resistors, or provide series resistors somewhere in the range of 1k Ohm. I like your limit cutoff switches -- it makes the flaps retractable or extendable even if the limit is somehow hit due to a transient problem. It might be handy to add 'limit cutoff' LEDs on them as well. --Daniel On Sep 14, 2012, at 6:51 PM, Robert Reed wrote: > All, > > > Attached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 position switch to control the flaps with LED indicators to show the position settings. The rotary switch will have a lever that not only gives a tactile feel indicating position but will point to the LED. I believe this setup will work but would like some review. I have also included absolute limit switched to ensure that an over-run will not occur due to a bad relay. > > > Bob Reed > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 05:57:01 PM PST US From: "Jeff Luckey" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? Robert see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcBvmL-FxYQ It's a demo of a flap controller that uses a pot for position-sense & is field_programmable. _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Reed Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 16:52 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? All, Attached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 position switch to control the flaps with LED indicators to show the position settings. The rotary switch will have a lever that not only gives a tactile feel indicating position but will point to the LED. I believe this setup will work but would like some review. I have also included absolute limit switched to ensure that an over-run will not occur due to a bad relay. Bob Reed ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:27:31 PM PST US From: Robert Reed Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? Daniel, =0A=0AYou are correct, the setup will step down but not up.- Turn ing the switch back =0Ato 10 would stop the movement if beyond the 10 degre es but would not return it =0Ato 10 degrees.- In trying to maintain the K ISS design could not come up with a =0Asimple return to the prior setting - I agree with the indicators for the overrun =0Alimit switches and have considered that.- I do have the 12v LED's but wasn't =0Aaware of the diff erence on the symbols.- =0A=0A=0AThanks for your input.=0A=0ABob=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Daniel Hooper =0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Fri, September 14, 20 12 7:24:05 PM=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Flap Control Schematic - wi ll it work?=0A=0AI like your idea, using simple limit switches and relays f or position control, =0Abut it I'm having trouble with what will happen und er the following condition: =0A=0A=0ASay for the sake of clarity the flap p ositions are up, 10, 20, and 30..=0A=0AThe flaps are up, and the green LED is lit.=0AI set flaps to 20, which will open the 10 switch, then the 20 swi tch. The flap =0Amovement completes and the 20 deg yellow LED lights.=0AI s et flaps back to 10, because I didn't mean to go all the way to 20.=0A... =0AFrom what I can see, the yellow 10 LED will be lit, but the flaps will n ot move =0Afrom the 20 degree position.=0A=0AThat is, to get the flaps to r etract under any circumstance, you need to turn =0Athe knob to 'up'.=0A=0AI t's possible I'm not seeing something though.=0A=0A=0AYou definitely should turn the LEDs around so that they "point" to ground, and =0Ayou'll either need to use 12V LEDs with internal resistors, or provide series =0Aresistor s somewhere in the range of 1k Ohm.=0A=0AI like your limit cutoff switches -- it makes the flaps retractable or =0Aextendable even if the limit is som ehow hit due to a transient problem. It might =0Abe handy to add 'limit cut off' LEDs on them as well.=0A=0A--Daniel=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Sep 14, 2012, at 6:5 1 PM, Robert Reed wrote:=0A=0AAll,=0A>-=0A>=0A>Attached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 position switch =0A>to control the fla ps with LED indicators to show the position settings.- The =0A>rotary swi tch will have a lever that not only gives a tactile feel indicating =0A>pos ition but will point to the LED.- I believe this setup will work but woul d =0A>like some review.- I have also included absolute limit switched to ensure that =0A>an over-run will not occur due to a bad relay.=0A>-=0A> ====== =0A ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 06:36:20 PM PST US From: Robert Reed Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? One thought...should I reverse the setup on the Over Retract Limit switch? - =0AAfter looking at it I think it would result in a direct short to gro und which =0Awould probably blow the fuse.- Am I thinking right?- What I am trying to =0Aaccomplish is to break the circuit while still allowing t he reversal.=0A=0ABob=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom : Daniel Hooper =0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Fri, September 14, 2012 7:24:05 PM=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-Lis t: Flap Control Schematic - will it work?=0A=0AI like your idea, using simp le limit switches and relays for position control, =0Abut it I'm having tro uble with what will happen under the following condition: =0A=0A=0ASay for the sake of clarity the flap positions are up, 10, 20, and 30..=0A=0AThe fl aps are up, and the green LED is lit.=0AI set flaps to 20, which will open the 10 switch, then the 20 switch. The flap =0Amovement completes and the 2 0 deg yellow LED lights.=0AI set flaps back to 10, because I didn't mean to go all the way to 20.=0A...=0AFrom what I can see, the yellow 10 LED will be lit, but the flaps will not move =0Afrom the 20 degree position.=0A=0ATh at is, to get the flaps to retract under any circumstance, you need to turn =0Athe knob to 'up'.=0A=0AIt's possible I'm not seeing something though. =0A=0A=0AYou definitely should turn the LEDs around so that they "point" to ground, and =0Ayou'll either need to use 12V LEDs with internal resistors, or provide series =0Aresistors somewhere in the range of 1k Ohm.=0A=0AI li ke your limit cutoff switches -- it makes the flaps retractable or =0Aexten dable even if the limit is somehow hit due to a transient problem. It might =0Abe handy to add 'limit cutoff' LEDs on them as well.=0A=0A--Daniel=0A =0A=0A=0AOn Sep 14, 2012, at 6:51 PM, Robert Reed wrote:=0A=0AAll,=0A>- =0A>=0A>Attached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 posi tion switch =0A>to control the flaps with LED indicators to show the positi on settings.- The =0A>rotary switch will have a lever that not only gives a tactile feel indicating =0A>position but will point to the LED.- I bel ieve this setup will work but would =0A>like some review.- I have also in cluded absolute limit switched to ensure that =0A>an over-run will not occu r due to a bad relay.=0A>-=0A>=0A>Bob Reed=0A=0A ================= =0A ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 06:37:53 PM PST US From: Robert Reed Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? I like where they are going with it.=0A=0ABOB=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_______________ _________________=0AFrom: Jeff Luckey =0ATo: aeroelect ric-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Fri, September 14, 2012 7:58:07 PM=0ASubject : RE: AeroElectric-List: Flap Control Schematic - will it work?=0A=0A=0ARob ert see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcBvmL-FxYQ=0A=C2-=0AIt =99s a demo of a flap controller that uses a pot for position-sense & is =0Afield_programmable.=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=0A_____________________________ ___=0A=0AFrom:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com =0A[mailto:owner -aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Reed=0ASent: F riday, September 14, 2012 16:52=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com=0ASub ject: AeroElectric-List: Flap Control Schematic - will it work?=0A=C2-=0A All,=0A=C2-=0AAttached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotar y 4 position switch =0Ato control the flaps with LED indicators to show the position settings.=C2- The =0Arotary switch will have a lever that not o nly gives a tactile feel indicating =0Aposition but will point to the LED. =C2- I believe this setup will work but would =0Alike some review.=C2- I have also included absolute limit switched to ensure that =0Aan over-run ============ =0A ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 06:50:35 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Pressure Sensor search At 06:38 PM 9/14/2012, you wrote: > >Searching for a low pressure 7.5psi (0.5 bar) fuel (avgas) pressure sensor. >Can be either two or three terminal. > >thanks for leads (brands or unused items), -john- Finding such a critter with a full scale range that small is problematic . . . especially one with all metal pressure-side materials that would be okay with gasoline. Suggest you look at something like this http://tinyurl.com/9uw647y http://tinyurl.com/8unuxge http://tinyurl.com/983v7o7 http://tinyurl.com/99xfyrs This is a small sample of possibilities. They're all aerospace grade devices at very reasonable prices compared to off the shelf new. Even as used devices, transducers of this genre' are likely to be a better value than automotive devices. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 08:13:14 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? From: Nati Niv Rob It will not work. I understand the KIS approach that leads you to use relays/micro switches only. Unfortunately designing such thing will require some level of electronic involves and the reason for it is that you need to know *at all times* what the position of the flaps is because you need to tell the motor to which direction to go, up/down. Using micro switch as a location sensing lacks this capability, it =93senses=94 at only one position, the position t o which you set it mechanically along the motor travel. The moment the motor moves from that position you have no indication of where you are. The most common sense to use as sensing device would be a potentiometer, and then you need some electronics to sense and compare (comparators). I would even think basing the design on the LM3914 10 LED driver. When it was time for me to change the flap system on my RANS 6 from manual to electric I thought, as an electronic fan about deferent designs but eventually find myself using this: http://www.e-motionllc.com/Feedback_actuator_p/fa-po-150-12-2.htm As the actuator (it has built in potentiometer) And this as a controller. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/electronicsflapcontroller.php A little pricy, I know but works, I love every second flying the 6 with this arrangement Nati RANS 6 Illinois On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 6:51 AM, Robert Reed wrote: > All, > > > Attached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 position > switch to control the flaps with LED indicators to show the position > settings. The rotary switch will have a lever that not only gives a > tactile feel indicating position but will point to the LED. I believe th is > setup will work but would like some review. I have also included absolut e > limit switched to ensure that an over-run will not occur due to a bad rel ay. > > > Bob Reed > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 08:39:28 PM PST US From: "Richard E. Tasker" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Pressure Sensor search Interesting. The first is one made by my company. Dick Tasker Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > At 06:38 PM 9/14/2012, you wrote: >> >> Searching for a low pressure 7.5psi (0.5 bar) fuel (avgas) pressure sensor. >> Can be either two or three terminal. >> >> thanks for leads (brands or unused items), -john- > > Finding such a critter with a full scale > range that small is problematic . . . especially > one with all metal pressure-side materials > that would be okay with gasoline. > > Suggest you look at something like this > > http://tinyurl.com/9uw647y > http://tinyurl.com/8unuxge > http://tinyurl.com/983v7o7 > http://tinyurl.com/99xfyrs > > This is a small sample of possibilities. > They're all aerospace grade devices at > very reasonable prices compared to off the > shelf new. Even as used devices, transducers > of this genre' are likely to be a better > value than automotive devices. > > > Bob . . . > > -- Please Note: No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however, that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced. -- ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 08:40:21 PM PST US From: Robert Reed Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? Nati,=0A=0ASorry, I only showed the electrical and did not explain the mech anics of the =0Aoperation.=C2- =0A=0A=0AThe micro-switches will be locate d in a channel with the ability to move them to =0Aadjust the positions.=C2 - A slide bar will be attached to the trim control arm.=C2- =0AThe slid e bar will close each switch in line during the retract operation and =0Aop en each in line during the extend.=C2- During the retract operation only the =0Aretract circuit will be powered by the rotary switch with the intent of full =0Aretraction and not stepped retraction.=C2- During extension, only one circuit can =0Abe active at any time and that circuit will close a s soon as the slide bar =0Apasses the switch allowing it to open.=C2- The indicator lights will only light =0Awhen the desired circuit is active and the switch is open.=C2- It should allow for =0Aeither stepped flap exten sion or full extension with one operation.=0A=0ABob=0A=0A=0A=C2-=0A=0A=0A =0A________________________________=0AFrom: Nati Niv =0AT o: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Fri, September 14, 2012 10:14:26 PM=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Flap Control Schematic - will it work ?=0A=0A=0ARob=0A=C2-=0AIt will not work.=0AI understand the KIS approach that leads you to use relays/micro switches only. =0AUnfortunately designin g such thing will require some level of electronic =0Ainvolves and the reas on for it is that you need to know at all times what the =0Aposition of the flaps is because you need to tell the motor to which direction =0Ato go, u p/down. Using micro switch as a location sensing lacks this capability, =0A it =9Csenses=9D at only one position, the position to which you set it mechanically =0Aalong the motor travel. The moment the motor moves from that position you have =0Ano indication of where you are. The most com mon sense to use as sensing device =0Awould be a potentiometer, and then yo u need some electronics to sense and =0Acompare (comparators). I would even think basing the design on the LM3914 10 LED =0Adriver. =0A=0AWhen it was time for me to change the flap system on my RANS 6 from manual to =0Aelectr ic I thought, as an electronic fan about deferent designs but eventually =0Afind myself using this:=0A=C2-=0Ahttp://www.e-motionllc.com/Feedback_a ctuator_p/fa-po-150-12-2.htm=0A=C2-=0AAs the actuator (it has built in po tentiometer) =0A=C2-=0AAnd this as a controller.=0A=C2-=0Ahttp://www.ai rcraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/electronicsflapcontroller.php=0A=C2-=0AA little pricy, I know but works, I love every second flying the 6 with this =0Aarrangement=0A=C2-=0ANati=0ARANS 6=0AIllinois =C2-=C2-=0A=C2- =0A=0A=0AOn Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 6:51 AM, Robert Reed wrote:=0A=0AAll,=0A>=C2-=0A>Attached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 position switch =0A>to control the flaps with LED indicat ors to show the position settings.=C2- The =0A>rotary switch will have a lever that not only gives a tactile feel indicating =0A>position but will p oint to the LED.=C2- I believe this setup will work but would =0A>like so me review.=C2- I have also included absolute limit switched to ensure tha t =0A>an over-run will not occur due to a bad relay.=0A>=C2-=0A>Bob Reed =================== =0A ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 08:54:14 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? From: Nati Niv Hummmmm If thats the case, let me think again... Nati On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 10:39 AM, Robert Reed wrote: > Nati, > > Sorry, I only showed the electrical and did not explain the mechanics of > the operation. > > The micro-switches will be located in a channel with the ability to move > them to adjust the positions. A slide bar will be attached to the trim > control arm. The slide bar will close each switch in line during the > retract operation and open each in line during the extend. During the > retract operation only the retract circuit will be powered by the rotary > switch with the intent of full retraction and not stepped retraction. > During extension, only one circuit can be active at any time and that > circuit will close as soon as the slide bar passes the switch allowing it > to open. The indicator lights will only light when the desired circuit i s > active and the switch is open. It should allow for either stepped flap > extension or full extension with one operation. > > Bob > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Nati Niv > *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Fri, September 14, 2012 10:14:26 PM > *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? > > Rob > > > It will not work. > > I understand the KIS approach that leads you to use relays/micro switches > only. Unfortunately designing such thing will require some level of > electronic involves and the reason for it is that you need to know *at > all times* what the position of the flaps is because you need to tell the > motor to which direction to go, up/down. Using micro switch as a location > sensing lacks this capability, it =93senses=94 at only one position, the > position to which you set it mechanically along the motor travel. The > moment the motor moves from that position you have no indication of where > you are. The most common sense to use as sensing device would be a > potentiometer, and then you need some electronics to sense and compare > (comparators). I would even think basing the design on the LM3914 10 LED > driver. > > When it was time for me to change the flap system on my RANS 6 from manua l > to electric I thought, as an electronic fan about deferent designs but > eventually find myself using this: > > > http://www.e-motionllc.com/Feedback_actuator_p/fa-po-150-12-2.htm > > > As the actuator (it has built in potentiometer) > > > And this as a controller. > > > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/electronicsflapcontroller.p hp > > > A little pricy, I know but works, I love every second flying the 6 with > this arrangement > > > Nati > > RANS 6 > > Illinois > > > On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 6:51 AM, Robert Reed wrote: > >> All, >> >> >> >> Attached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 position >> switch to control the flaps with LED indicators to show the position >> settings. The rotary switch will have a lever that not only gives a >> tactile feel indicating position but will point to the LED. I believe t his >> setup will work but would like some review. I have also included absolu te >> limit switched to ensure that an over-run will not occur due to a bad re lay. >> >> >> >> Bob Reed >> > > * > > om/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www .mhref="http://forums.matronics.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http :/========= > * > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 09:42:40 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? From: Nati Niv Bob Now, that I understand the mechanical design I have a solution including to the =93moving from any position to any position up/down=94 can you send me the diagram in a format other than PDF and I will returned it corrected? Now that I understand I really the simplicity of it. Nati On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 10:39 AM, Robert Reed wrote: > Nati, > > Sorry, I only showed the electrical and did not explain the mechanics of > the operation. > > The micro-switches will be located in a channel with the ability to move > them to adjust the positions. A slide bar will be attached to the trim > control arm. The slide bar will close each switch in line during the > retract operation and open each in line during the extend. During the > retract operation only the retract circuit will be powered by the rotary > switch with the intent of full retraction and not stepped retraction. > During extension, only one circuit can be active at any time and that > circuit will close as soon as the slide bar passes the switch allowing it > to open. The indicator lights will only light when the desired circuit i s > active and the switch is open. It should allow for either stepped flap > extension or full extension with one operation. > > Bob > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Nati Niv > *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Fri, September 14, 2012 10:14:26 PM > *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? > > Rob > > > It will not work. > > I understand the KIS approach that leads you to use relays/micro switches > only. Unfortunately designing such thing will require some level of > electronic involves and the reason for it is that you need to know *at > all times* what the position of the flaps is because you need to tell the > motor to which direction to go, up/down. Using micro switch as a location > sensing lacks this capability, it =93senses=94 at only one position, the > position to which you set it mechanically along the motor travel. The > moment the motor moves from that position you have no indication of where > you are. The most common sense to use as sensing device would be a > potentiometer, and then you need some electronics to sense and compare > (comparators). I would even think basing the design on the LM3914 10 LED > driver. > > When it was time for me to change the flap system on my RANS 6 from manua l > to electric I thought, as an electronic fan about deferent designs but > eventually find myself using this: > > > http://www.e-motionllc.com/Feedback_actuator_p/fa-po-150-12-2.htm > > > As the actuator (it has built in potentiometer) > > > And this as a controller. > > > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/electronicsflapcontroller.p hp > > > A little pricy, I know but works, I love every second flying the 6 with > this arrangement > > > Nati > > RANS 6 > > Illinois > > > On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 6:51 AM, Robert Reed wrote: > >> All, >> >> >> >> Attached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 position >> switch to control the flaps with LED indicators to show the position >> settings. The rotary switch will have a lever that not only gives a >> tactile feel indicating position but will point to the LED. I believe t his >> setup will work but would like some review. I have also included absolu te >> limit switched to ensure that an over-run will not occur due to a bad re lay. >> >> >> >> Bob Reed >> > > * > > om/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www .mhref="http://forums.matronics.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http :/========= > * > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.