---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 10/01/12: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:57 AM - Re: Compatable Shunt (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 07:08 AM - Re: Re: SD-8 S704-1 relay with or without Diode when using OVM-14? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 07:21 AM - Grounding blocks (Eric Marenyi) 4. 07:38 AM - Re: Grounding blocks (James Kilford) 5. 08:20 AM - Renewing old data . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 08:28 AM - Re: Compatable Shunt (user9253) 7. 08:34 AM - Re: Grounding blocks (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 09:00 AM - Re: Grounding blocks (Jared Yates) 9. 12:54 PM - Thermocouple testing (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 02:50 PM - Re: Thermocouple testing (Roger & Jean Curtis) 11. 07:45 PM - Re: Re: Compatable Shunt (fedico94@mchsi.com) 12. 07:45 PM - Re: Compatable Shunt (fedico94@mchsi.com) 13. 08:53 PM - Re: Re: Compatable Shunt (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 11:01 PM - Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 15. 11:04 PM - Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:57:09 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Compatable Shunt > The shunt sent to me by the Avionics shop for use with the Garmin > is 100 amp/50mv and the one B & C supplied and installed in the > plane is 60 amp at 50mv. My confusion and question concerns the > schematic from Garmin that says the shunt is rated at 0.0005 > Ohm. The B & C supplied system with its shunt is 50mv/60 amp gives > me 0.00083 Ohm. > >First are my calculations correct and second does this have any >bearing on the inability to display the ammeter reading ? If the >above is not contributing to the problem should I look elsewhere in >the system for the problem ? (Prior to turning on the field of the >60 amp alternator I get the main volts waring light flashing and >goes off after the field is activated. Remainder of G3X works fine) The size of the shunt is relative only to calibration of the display. If you have no display, then the problem is not with the shunt. If the display is present but inaccurate, THEN you probably have a shunt problem. A shut is just a high power resistor . . . abeit a special resistor manufactured from amazium alloy with a near zero temperature coefficient of resistance. The material is actually Manganin. http://tinyurl.com/3f79fgy When your current display is a LOADMETER calibrated in 0-100%, then the shunt is sized to what ever that 100% value is . . . in case of the 60A alternator, you would use a 60A shunt. If it were a 100A alternator, then a 100A shunt. Interestingly enough, using a 100A shunt in ALL installations converts the 0-100% display to a 0-100A display. I suspect that the 100A shunt recommended by the avionics shop is based on some knowledge that the EFIS calls 50mv drop 100Amps and that size shunt will read ANY practical current up to 100A accurately. Substitution of a 60A shunt would simply mean that your 100A display was really a 100% display. Looking past calibration issues, if your display is non-reading, the difficulty lies elsewhere. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:08:28 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: SD-8 S704-1 relay with or without Diode when using OVM-14? At 10:17 AM 9/30/2012, you wrote: Bob, Thank-you very much for the replies. I was able to calibrate my OVMs and get them both (SD-8 Alternator, and Ground Power) installed yesterday. Did they require re-adjustment? I greatly appreciate all you do for our OBAM community. Without AEC I'd be lost. My electrical system installation is coming right along. My pleasure sir. It's what we do here. It's very much a two-way street. The AeroElectric-List is a vehicle for me to practice many of the critical thought and creativity skills I was unable to fully explore as an employee with direction supplied down from on-high. Not that the tasks were devoid of growth in my chosen discipline . . . I WAS able to participate in a lot of rewarding endeavors. At the same time, few original ideas offered were given any elbow room for exploration as to potential benefit to my employer. I can point to $millions$ in demonstrable lost opportunities over the 40 years. If Walter, Duane, and Willy had still been in charge, who knows? Their legends may not be accurate portrayals of their true sense of adventure either. I'm still sitting on a product idea that would replace a 1970's, $20K black box on a fleet of Hawkers with a 2012 design that can be manufactured for under $100 . . . but the differences are so profound that I don't think they believe it can be true. In the mean time, let us all continue to grow in the things we do best. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:21:37 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Grounding blocks From: Eric Marenyi I am curious as to what a home made grounding block should be made of. I realize that B and C makes theirs out of brass but I wonder why when it seems there are other more easily obtained metals with better conductivity, according to the charts on this site: http://metaldetectingworld.com/conductive_order_metals.shtml I have seen grounding blocks made of aluminum, copper, brass, etc. What is the benefit of one over the other? -- Eric M. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:38:44 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Grounding blocks From: James Kilford I suppose that brass is a good all-rounder -- easy to solder, mechanically robust, reasonable conductor, fairly inexpensive -- whereas the others have their trade-offs, e.g. gold & silver being expensive, aluminium being difficult to join, copper being soft and work-hardening etc. Just a guess, but brass seems like a great compromise. On 1 October 2012 15:21, Eric Marenyi wrote: > > I am curious as to what a home made grounding block should be made of. > I realize that B and C makes theirs out of brass but I wonder why when > it seems there are other more easily obtained metals with better > conductivity, according to the charts on this site: > > http://metaldetectingworld.com/conductive_order_metals.shtml > > I have seen grounding blocks made of aluminum, copper, brass, etc. > What is the benefit of one over the other? > > -- > Eric M. > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:20:35 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Renewing old data . . . A few days ago there was some discussion about heated pitot tubes and some ideas about directly heated tubes as opposed to assemblies with embedded heating elements. I was trying to recall some things I explored in years past . . . a bit fuzzy so I went to the bench and did the following exploration. Emacs! Dug out my Weller 8400, a descendant of the very first soldering tool I ever purchased (from Burnstein-Applebee in KC for about $5). The snap-on ammeter showed just over 300 amps in the 'tip wire' while the trusty John Fluke multimeter gave me 250 millivolts as the potential delivered to the tip. The snap-on confirmed a 120VAC current draw of 1.2A or right at 140 watts power consumed. Measurement of the tip material confirmed that the cross-section was on a par with 10AWG wire . . . I used to make replacement tips from 10AWG scrap provided by a journeyman electrician up the street from my house. The experiment confirmed my recollection that soldering guns are horribly inefficient tools. The actual heating power delivered to the working tip is tiny compared to the total power consumed. My Metcal irons deliver a much greater proportion of their power to the tip . . . a 30W Metcal will install terminals on 2AWG wire! The Weller 8400 puts about .250 x 310 or 75 watts of total consumption into the tip wire . . . and that's spread all along the tip's length. Local heating at the tip plus conduction from behind the tip might put half the total heat to good use? In the case of a directly heated pitot tube, the feature that gives a soldering gun such poor marks turns out to be exactly what the DHPT needs . . . hot on every surface prone to collection of ice that would render IAS inoperable. Food for thought . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:28:16 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compatable Shunt From: "user9253" Your calculations look correct to me. What is the aircraft electrical load? It might be too small to show up on the ammeter. Turn on the landing light or other heavy load. The engine needs to be running for the following test. Measure the voltage drop across the shunt with a milli-voltmeter. With a 60amp shunt and a 10amp load, the voltage drop will be about 8mv. Then measure the voltage drop across the ammeter input. It should be the same as at the shunt. If there is a millivolt input signal to the ammeter but it still does not display, perhaps the ammeter needs to be calibrated. See Page 12-20 G3X Installation Manual - Engine Sensor Configuration Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384385#384385 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:34:12 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Grounding blocks At 09:38 AM 10/1/2012, you wrote: >I suppose that brass is a good all-rounder -- >easy to solder, mechanically robust, reasonable >conductor, fairly inexpensive -- whereas the >others have their trade-offs, e.g. gold & silver >being expensive, aluminium being difficult to >join, copper being soft and work-hardening etc. > >Just a guess, but brass seems like a great compromise. . . . correct . . . and further re-enforced by availability of parts/materials for fabrication. Don't know where one might get fast-on tabs fabricated from a "better" material. Yes, materials in the grounding tab ADDS to total loop resistance. But so to do the terminals, crimp joints, bolted joints, wire, plating on the wire, pin-to-pin interface, etc. etc. Research the "galloping ammeter" phenomenon common to older airplanes and discussed here on the list at length. Some owners of nice old 172's complained that a costly new master switch fixed the problem for only a short time. This is because the SUM TOTAL of all resistances in the regulator sense wiring between bus and regulator has increased over time. Replacing the switch dropped total loop resistance below the stability threshold . . . but steadily increasing resistance in the new switch or (more likely) other components drove the resistance up past the stability threshold. I've advised owner/operators to replace/renew ALL joints and components in that pathway to achieve the same resistance as delivered from the factory. Only then can one expect the repair to last as long as the as-new condition. The design goal is two-fold (1) keep total loop resistance so low as to be insignificant to system performance and (2) make sure is STAYS low by the fabrication of gas-tight or other fabrication techniques that keep moisture laden with corrosives out of the joints. Meeting these two goals with skill goes toward a more pleasurable, low cost-of-ownership experience with your airplane. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:00:47 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Grounding blocks From: Jared Yates Does it help that brass is relatively soft and allows for some deformation at the point of contact with a fast-on? It seems like I remember reading that this was part of the gas-tight equation. I used the $1 terminal strips from Stein combined with a small piece of brass stock from the local hobby shop to make mine, so brass was very available. Are those sources available to you Eric, or are you somewhere far away? On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 11:33 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > At 09:38 AM 10/1/2012, you wrote: >> >> I suppose that brass is a good all-rounder -- easy to solder, mechanically >> robust, reasonable conductor, fairly inexpensive -- whereas the others have >> their trade-offs, e.g. gold & silver being expensive, aluminium being >> difficult to join, copper being soft and work-hardening etc. >> >> Just a guess, but brass seems like a great compromise. > > > . . . correct . . . and further re-enforced by > availability of parts/materials for fabrication. > Don't know where one might get fast-on tabs fabricated > from a "better" material. > > Yes, materials in the grounding tab ADDS to total > loop resistance. But so to do the terminals, crimp joints, > bolted joints, wire, plating on the wire, pin-to-pin > interface, etc. etc. > > Research the "galloping ammeter" phenomenon common to > older airplanes and discussed here on the list at > length. Some owners of nice old 172's complained that > a costly new master switch fixed the problem for only > a short time. > > This is because the SUM TOTAL of all resistances in the > regulator sense wiring between bus and regulator has increased > over time. Replacing the switch dropped total loop resistance > below the stability threshold . . . but steadily increasing resistance > in the new switch or (more likely) other components drove > the resistance up past the stability threshold. I've > advised owner/operators to replace/renew ALL joints and components > in that pathway to achieve the same resistance as delivered > from the factory. Only then can one expect the repair to last > as long as the as-new condition. > > The design goal is two-fold (1) keep total loop resistance > so low as to be insignificant to system performance and > (2) make sure is STAYS low by the fabrication of gas-tight > or other fabrication techniques that keep moisture laden with > corrosives out of the joints. Meeting these two goals with > skill goes toward a more pleasurable, low cost-of-ownership > experience with your airplane. > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:54:08 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Thermocouple testing A few weeks ago we had some discussion about troubleshooting a thermocouple temperature indicator system. I was curious about current offerings on eBay and elsewhere for K-type thermocouple readout devices useful as test tools. I ordered these two items for further study. A TM902C hand-held readout instrument powered by internal battery http://tinyurl.com/9v8w6d2 and a panel mounted 12vdc externally powered device http://tinyurl.com/8c3ngdq The second one was a disappointment. I was initially encouraged when I saw a diode mounted between two terminals on the back of the instrument adjacent to locations for the thermocouple wire . . . this was no doubt part of the cold-junction compensation. The critter was pretty close at 0C but off by 5-6 degrees at 100C. I opened it up and didn't find any calibration provisions. The TM902 was a pleasant surprise. Not only was it within one degree at 0C (stirred ice bath) it was equally close at 100C (boiling distilled water). Even better yet, a peek inside revealed not only an active cold-junction correction device but two calibration pots. Emacs! Bottom line is that this particular instrument is a great value as a test tool for in-flight temperature surveys, it's easily re-calibrated should this be necessary in the future. It comes with a K-type thermocouple about 3' long. Uses standard T/C connectors. The K-type wire is readily available from sources like eBay and Omega. The low cost and re-calibration convenience of this critter puts good temperature measurement and test capability in everybody's hands. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:50:50 PM PST US From: "Roger & Jean Curtis" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Thermocouple testing A TM902C hand-held readout instrument powered by internal battery http://tinyurl.com/9v8w6d2 Bob, Thanks for the tip. I have one on order. Roger ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:45:43 PM PST US From: fedico94@mchsi.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compatable Shunt The G3X manual you refer to lists the calibration procedure for Hall effect sensor on page 12020. Cn this be used with the Shunt ? I suspect there is no calibration for the shunt. Thanks for the reference, I have to keep up on the manual revisions as they add new devices all the time. After initial test flights I will have to update the software as well. ----- Original Message ----- From: user9253 Sent: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 10:27:45 -0500 (CDT) Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compatable Shunt Your calculations look correct to me. What is the aircraft electrical load? It might be too small to show up on the ammeter. Turn on the landing light or other heavy load. The engine needs to be running for the following test. Measure the voltage drop across the shunt with a milli-voltmeter. With a 60amp shunt and a 10amp load, the voltage drop will be about 8mv. Then measure the voltage drop across the ammeter input. It should be the same as at the shunt. If there is a millivolt input signal to the ammeter but it still does not display, perhaps the ammeter needs to be calibrated. See Page 12-20 G3X Installation Manual - Engine Sensor Configuration Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384385#384385 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:45:54 PM PST US From: fedico94@mchsi.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Compatable Shunt again thanks for the pointers so I can proceed with some confidence. ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 08:55:49 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Compatable Shunt > The shunt sent to me by the Avionics shop for use with the Garmin > is 100 amp/50mv and the one B & C supplied and installed in the > plane is 60 amp at 50mv. My confusion and question concerns the > schematic from Garmin that says the shunt is rated at 0.0005 > Ohm. The B & C supplied system with its shunt is 50mv/60 amp gives > me 0.00083 Ohm. > >First are my calculations correct and second does this have any >bearing on the inability to display the ammeter reading ? If the >above is not contributing to the problem should I look elsewhere in >the system for the problem ? (Prior to turning on the field of the >60 amp alternator I get the main volts waring light flashing and >goes off after the field is activated. Remainder of G3X works fine) The size of the shunt is relative only to calibration of the display. If you have no display, then the problem is not with the shunt. If the display is present but inaccurate, THEN you probably have a shunt problem. A shut is just a high power resistor . . . abeit a special resistor manufactured from amazium alloy with a near zero temperature coefficient of resistance. The material is actually Manganin. http://tinyurl.com/3f79fgy When your current display is a LOADMETER calibrated in 0-100%, then the shunt is sized to what ever that 100% value is . . . in case of the 60A alternator, you would use a 60A shunt. If it were a 100A alternator, then a 100A shunt. Interestingly enough, using a 100A shunt in ALL installations converts the 0-100% display to a 0-100A display. I suspect that the 100A shunt recommended by the avionics shop is based on some knowledge that the EFIS calls 50mv drop 100Amps and that size shunt will read ANY practical current up to 100A accurately. Substitution of a 60A shunt would simply mean that your 100A display was really a 100% display. Looking past calibration issues, if your display is non-reading, the difficulty lies elsewhere. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:53:30 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Compatable Shunt At 09:43 PM 10/1/2012, you wrote: > >The G3X manual you refer to lists the calibration procedure for Hall >effect sensor on page 12020. Cn this be used with the Shunt ? I >suspect there is no calibration for the shunt. >Thanks for the reference, I have to keep up on the manual revisions >as they add new devices all the time. After initial test flights I >will have to update the software as well. I downloaded the g3x manual. A search of the book cites 82 instances of the word "shunt" where the expected device is a 50mv/100A device. There are also 8 instances of Hall Effect where it appears you can use AmpLoc KEY100 style sensors. Paragraph 8.3 speaks to the use of either. I was unable to find any schematic references to hall devices. They have 3 wire connections and need a source of clean power. Also, hall effect sensors are noted for their variability in both offset and scale factor . . . they require individual calibration for accuracy. Shunts are precision, two wire devices that are very predictable. Suggest you stay with the 100A shunt. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:01:24 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Dear Listers, Please read over the AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The complete AeroElectric-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as Courier. 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While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any images and email it to: wiki-support@matronics.com One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct a Wiki page for you. Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that post and convert it into a Wiki page. ********************* *** List Archives *** ********************* A file containing of all of the previous postings to the AeroElectric-List is available on line. The archive file information is available via the Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below: * AeroElectric-List.FAQ - Latest version of the AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Question page (this document). * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete - Complete file with most of the email header info removed and page breaks inserted between messages. * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-?? - Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that can more easily handled. * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.zip - Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.Z - Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. Download Via FTP ---------------- The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.) ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives Download Via Web ---------------- The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found toward the bottom of the following web page: http://www.matronics.com/archives ****************************************** *** Complete List Web Archive Browsing *** ****************************************** All messages posted to the AeroElectric-List are also available using the Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed. http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?AeroElectric ***************************************** **** High-Speed Archive Search Engine *** ***************************************** You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently available List archives. http://www.matronics.com/search **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. AeroElectric-List Policy Statement The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:04:47 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines Dear Listers, Please read over the AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete AeroElectric-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. AeroElectric-List Policy Statement The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.