AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Mon 11/26/12


Total Messages Posted: 14



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     0. 09:57 AM - Contributions Down By 23%... (Matt Dralle)
     1. 04:49 AM - Which leads for Alcor EGT? (Bob Verwey)
     2. 10:34 AM - Re: The hardware side (ivanallen)
     3. 10:45 AM - Re: Re: The hardware side (Ron Raby)
     4. 11:08 AM - Re: Which leads for Alcor EGT? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     5. 11:09 AM - Re: Re: The hardware side (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     6. 11:31 AM - Re: Re: The hardware side (Jeff Luckey)
     7. 12:59 PM - Re: Headphone power requirements (Peter Pengilly)
     8. 01:14 PM - Re: Credit given to Bob Nuckolls (Reiff)
     9. 03:11 PM - Re: Headphone power requirements (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    10. 03:31 PM - Re: Re: Credit given to Bob Nuckolls (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    11. 04:01 PM - Re: Headphone power requirements (Richard Tasker)
    12. 04:22 PM - Re: Re: Credit given to Bob Nuckolls (Jeff Luckey)
    13. 05:10 PM - Re: The hardware side (ivanallen)
 
 
 


Message 0


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    Time: 09:57:55 AM PST US
    From: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
    Subject: Contributions Down By 23%...
    Dear Listers, As of today, Contributions to the Matronics List Fund Raiser are lagging behind last year at this time by roughly 23%. I have a Fund Raiser each year simply to cover my operating costs for the Lists. I *do not* accept any advertising income to support the Lists and rely solely on the Contributions of members to keep the expenses paid. I run all of my own servers and they are housed here locally, and the Internet connection is a commercial-grade, dual T1 connection with public address space. I also maintain a full backup system that does nightly backups of all List-related data so that in the event of a server crash, all of the Lists and the many years of List archive data could be restored onto a new server in a matter of hours. All of this costs a fair amount of money, not to mention a significant amount of my personal time. I have a Fund Raiser each year to cover these costs and I ask that members that feel they receive a benefit from my investments make a modest Contribution each year to support the continued operation and upgrade of these services. If you enjoy the Lists, please make a Contribution today. I also offer some incentive gifts for larger Contribution levels. At the Contribution Web Site, you can use a credit card, Paypal, or personal check to show your support for the continuation of these services: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Or, drop a personal check in the mail to: Matt Dralle / Matronics 581 Jeannie Way Livermore CA 94550 Thank you for your support! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator


    Message 1


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    Time: 04:49:18 AM PST US
    Subject: Which leads for Alcor EGT?
    From: Bob Verwey <bob.verwey@gmail.com>
    Gents, I have a mint condition Elcor Ekonomix instrument plus Alcor 9411 probe p/n 86245. I do not have the leads to connect the two! The setup tests fine when the probe is connected directly to the gauge, although I am not to sure about the calibration without the leads. Can anyone tell me an easy way to set up 4 ft leads that would work please? Bob Verwey


    Message 2


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    Time: 10:34:02 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: The hardware side
    From: "ivanallen" <Ivan_Allen@comcast.net>
    Newbie here. Struggling with hardware and hardware placement issues also. I envision building my instrument panel with a 12 v and ground buss mounted on the back side. Only two power wires to remove instrument panel from aircraft. (sensor wiring etc. exepted) Is this a good Idea? I have checked aircraft spruce and B&C, and can not find a good 12v buss for this purpose. B& C ground buss is nice, but no insulated buss. Do I just use a standard terminal strip with jumpers for this? Two pictures attached as sort of a test for my first post. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=389058#389058 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/jumper_947.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/term_strip_564.jpg


    Message 3


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    Time: 10:45:46 AM PST US
    From: "Ron Raby" <ronr@advanceddesign.com>
    Subject: Re: The hardware side
    How about this product? Regards Ron Raby http://bluesea.com/productline/188 ----- Original Message ----- From: "ivanallen" <Ivan_Allen@comcast.net> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:33 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: The hardware side > <Ivan_Allen@comcast.net> > > Newbie here. Struggling with hardware and hardware placement issues > also. I envision building my instrument panel with a 12 v and ground buss > mounted on the back side. Only two power wires to remove instrument > panel from aircraft. (sensor wiring etc. exepted) Is this a good Idea? I > have checked aircraft spruce and B&C, and can not find a good 12v buss for > this purpose. B& C ground buss is nice, but no insulated buss. Do I just > use a standard terminal strip with jumpers for this? Two pictures > attached as sort of a test for my first post. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=389058#389058 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/jumper_947.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/term_strip_564.jpg > > >


    Message 4


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    Time: 11:08:31 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Which leads for Alcor EGT?
    At 06:48 AM 11/26/2012, you wrote: >Gents, >I have a mint condition Elcor Ekonomix instrument plus Alcor 9411 >probe p/n 86245. I do not have the leads to connect the two! > >The setup tests fine when the probe is connected directly to the >gauge, although I am not to sure about the calibration without the leads. > >Can anyone tell me an easy way to set up 4 ft leads that would work please? According to this data sheet on Alcor's website http://tinyurl.com/d4y7pdu your probe is a type K device. You can fabricate an type-K extension lead from the appropriate wire but depending on your locale, it may be hard to find. It should be crafted from stranded type-K wire. The factory offerings for extension cables are ridiculously long for an SE aircraft http://tinyurl.com/cj29577 You can order a small quanity of 20AWG stranded K wire for $33 from Omega http://tinyurl.com/2fpp8r cut it to appropriate length and install PIDG terminals to make the connections. Bob . . .


    Message 5


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    Time: 11:09:10 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: The hardware side
    At 12:33 PM 11/26/2012, you wrote: > >Newbie here. Struggling with hardware and hardware placement >issues also. I envision building my instrument panel with a 12 v and >ground buss mounted on the back side. Only two power wires to >remove instrument panel from aircraft. (sensor wiring etc. exepted) >Is this a good Idea? I have checked aircraft spruce and B&C, and >can not find a good 12v buss for this purpose. B& C ground buss is >nice, but no insulated buss. Do I just use a standard terminal strip >with jumpers for this? Two pictures attached as sort of a test for >my first post. What kind of airplane? What compliment of panel mounted electro-whizzies? What kind of alternator/battery arrangement? Bob . . .


    Message 6


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    Time: 11:31:40 AM PST US
    From: "Jeff Luckey" <JLuckey@pacbell.net>
    Subject: Re: The hardware side
    The positive side would typically go thru some kind of "distribution panel" such as a collection of circuit breakers and/or fuses. Typical installations mount circuit breakers, evenly spaced, in a row and the input sides of the breakers are tied together using a bussbar or wire jumpers. If breakers aren't your thing, there are some pretty cool automotive fuse blocks that are bussed internally and have tab connectors for the load side. They are compact, easy to use, and relatively inexpensive. A google search will turn-up hundreds of them. That's a pretty high-level survey. If you give us more detail, we can make more specific recommendations. Jeff Luckey -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ivanallen Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 10:33 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: The hardware side <Ivan_Allen@comcast.net> Newbie here. Struggling with hardware and hardware placement issues also. I envision building my instrument panel with a 12 v and ground buss mounted on the back side. Only two power wires to remove instrument panel from aircraft. (sensor wiring etc. exepted) Is this a good Idea? I have checked aircraft spruce and B&C, and can not find a good 12v buss for this purpose. B& C ground buss is nice, but no insulated buss. Do I just use a standard terminal strip with jumpers for this? Two pictures attached as sort of a test for my first post. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=389058#389058 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/jumper_947.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/term_strip_564.jpg ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com


    Message 7


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    Time: 12:59:11 PM PST US
    From: Peter Pengilly <peter@sportingaero.com>
    Subject: Re: Headphone power requirements
    Hi Bob, Over the weekend I managed to get everything together to hook up an old Terra TX760D to a set of 'ipod' headphones. It all worked!! The audio quality wasn't very good, but that is probably a function of my power supply, breadboard wiring and poor antenna grounding, but the headphones produced a reasonable noise. They had reasonable volume, from quiet to too loud using the radio volume control. I used a 680 ohm 2W resistor and paralleled the L & R headphone - their resistance was 30 ohms each channel on the multimeter. Now I will build something into a project box with reasonable shielding and try with my helmet in the aeroplane. Thanks very much for your suggestion. Peter On 17/11/2012 00:45, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > I emailed a Becker AR4201 spec sheet that lists the headphone output as, > "at 13.75V nominal operating voltage >= 100mW at 600 ohm ... dropping > to 30mW at 10.0V" > > Their comment is that their component supplier says, > > "14V nominal drive is much higher than any of our receivers are > supposed to be driven at. Typical drive voltage is 0.1V which is 12dB > below 10% THD. 14 V is 140 times this or about 30dB above 10% THD." > > These folks didn't understand what they read. > > Their .1 v (presumed RMS) for 12 db (1/4 voltage) > below that which produces 10% total harmonic distortion > (diaphragm rattle). All this says nothing about what > you hear. I suspect that the 100 mv into one of those > devices would be painful for a normal hearing person. > > Earbuds I have on hand measure about 20 ohms. Making > them to some higher resistance presents some interesting > trade offs. Higher resistance takes more turns of finer > wire (hard). Lower resistance is fewer turns but lower > sensitivity . . . but increased ability to deliver power > from a device operating on a single AA cell. > > So if I were to take a WAG, the device you're considering > is about 20 ohms resistance. 100 mv rms into 20 ohms > is 1/2 milliwatt! That much power coupled right to the > ear canal is probably really loud. > > I interpret the Becker spec to mean that when the bus voltage is > 13.75V, the output power is at least 100mW into 600 ohm. And that > means the headphones can expect to see 7.7v? Is that correct? > > Yes. The 'problem' is that we don't know what the real > output impedance is for the headset audio port. It's > PROBABLY pretty low . . . a hard connection to some > form of audio amplifier chip. A chip powered at > 14v cannot deliver more that 14v pk-pk, or 5 volts > rms. So that 100 mw figure MIGHT be a peak value. > One never knows for sure without measuring. > > In any case, your problem is no so much one of > impedance matching for maximum transfer of power > but one of attenuation that (1) avoids over load > of Becker audio output chips and (2) keeps the > vast majority of that 100 mW from being coupled > to your grey matter. > > I was expecting the company to offer some kind of matching/attenuating > box - but I guess this is beyond their capability ... > > Are we talking the same language here? > > No . . . in fact, we're not sure what language Becker > is using either. > > If Vern Little is reading this and has any of his small amplifiers in > a D-sub left on the shelf then I would really like one! > > I really do not know much about audio systems, if anyone can provide > some advice I would be very grateful. There must be a simple way > forward (surely ...). > > I'm 99% sure that you can experiment with a simple > series resistor between the Becker output and the > ear piece coil. > > Starting with a 620 ohm resistor loads the Becker at > 640 ohms. No risk. 7.7 VRMS into 620 gives you 12 > mA RMS into the network. 12 ma across your 20 > ohm ear piece coil produces 250 millivolts . . . > about 2.5 x that which the company claims some > 'optimum' level of performance. > > So backing your volume control off probably gets > things into the right church. Further fiddling > with the resistor might be necessary to get into > the right pew. > > Bob . . . > > * > > > *


    Message 8


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    Time: 01:14:02 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Credit given to Bob Nuckolls
    From: "Reiff" <Reiff@Lorenz.com>
    Joe, Thanks for mentioning my article in Kitplanes and for the well-deserved praise for Bob! After seeing your post and reading my article, Bob contacted me with additional advice for the beginning homebuilder. This seems like as good a place as any to summarize what he recommended: 1. He agreed that online forums were a great resource, and suggested that builders delve into both make/model-specific forums as well as component/system-specific forums. For example, someone considering building an RV-14 should plug into the AeroElectric list and the aircraft-engine community as well as the RV-14 forum. 2. AC43-13 (which I suggested reading in my article) is outdated and the information contained there is not reliable enough to be used in isolation. Builders should check with an authority (online expert, A&P, builders group, etc.) before relying on the FAA Advisory Circular. This publication is being updated next year, so hopefully it will improve sometime soon. If I get a chance to do a follow-up article, I'll include these suggestions. Reiff Lorenz, Dayton, Ohio Velocity XL-RG Still working on fiberglass; no wiring, yet! PS Anyone recognize the background in the artwork that went with the AeroElectric Connection recommendation in the Kitplanes article? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=389071#389071


    Message 9


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    Time: 03:11:56 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Headphone power requirements
    At 02:57 PM 11/26/2012, you wrote: >Hi Bob, > >Over the weekend I managed to get everything together to hook up an >old Terra TX760D to a set of 'ipod' headphones. It all worked!! > >The audio quality wasn't very good, but that is probably a function >of my power supply, breadboard wiring and poor antenna grounding, >but the headphones produced a reasonable noise. They had reasonable >volume, from quiet to too loud using the radio volume control. I >used a 680 ohm 2W resistor and paralleled the L & R headphone - >their resistance was 30 ohms each channel on the multimeter. Paralleled????? The resistor would go in SERIES with each headset driver. That 30 ohm load might account for a less than optimal audio quality . . . you may be overloading the audio output amplifier in the radio. >Now I will build something into a project box with reasonable >shielding and try with my helmet in the aeroplane. It might not warrant a box. Power levels you're working with are a handful of milliwatts. I think I'd consider cutting into the headset cord, splicing 1/4w resistors tack soldered in series with each 'ear piece' and covering in heat shrink. Stagger the resistors along the cord so that you can heat-shrink each one and then put another shrink over the whole. Bob . . .


    Message 10


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    Time: 03:31:04 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Credit given to Bob Nuckolls
    At 03:13 PM 11/26/2012, you wrote: Welcome aboard sir! My comments to Reiff were based on Earl Lawrence's activities on behalf of the FAA back in July of 1996 when a draft copy of the proposed change to AC43-13 was shared with EAA. Earl split up the sections and sent them out to various of his subject matter experts. Chapter 11 on electrical systems was sprinkled with toe-stubbers. I haven't been able to dig up my original response . . . but Earl got most of my work along with that of many others into his letter which you can read here. http://tinyurl.com/c5rm43k While AC43-13 contains much accurate information, the process for weeding out inaccuracies is arduous and lethargic. Hence my suggestion that Forums populated with been-there-done-that techno-wiennies tend to be lower risk than the work product of bureaucratic tech writers. Bob . . .


    Message 11


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    Time: 04:01:47 PM PST US
    From: Richard Tasker <retasker@optonline.net>
    Subject: Re: Headphone power requirements
    I suspect what he is saying is that he paralleled the L&R of the headphone and inserted the 680 ohm resistor in series with that. Dick Tasker Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 02:57 PM 11/26/2012, you wrote: >> Hi Bob, >> >> Over the weekend I managed to get everything together to hook up an old Terra TX760D to a set of 'ipod' headphones. >> It all worked!! >> >> The audio quality wasn't very good, but that is probably a function of my power supply, breadboard wiring and poor >> antenna grounding, but the headphones produced a reasonable noise. They had reasonable volume, from quiet to too loud >> using the radio volume control. I used a 680 ohm 2W resistor and paralleled the L & R headphone - their resistance >> was 30 ohms each channel on the multimeter. > > Paralleled????? The resistor would go in SERIES with each > headset driver. That 30 ohm load might account for a > less than optimal audio quality . . . you may be overloading > the audio output amplifier in the radio. > >> Now I will build something into a project box with reasonable shielding and try with my helmet in the aeroplane. > > It might not warrant a box. Power levels you're > working with are a handful of milliwatts. I think > I'd consider cutting into the headset cord, splicing > 1/4w resistors tack soldered in series with each > 'ear piece' and covering in heat shrink. Stagger > the resistors along the cord so that you can heat-shrink > each one and then put another shrink over the whole. > > Bob . . . > > * > > > *


    Message 12


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    Time: 04:22:12 PM PST US
    From: "Jeff Luckey" <JLuckey@pacbell.net>
    Subject: Re: Credit given to Bob Nuckolls
    My comment at bottom. _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 15:31 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Credit given to Bob Nuckolls At 03:13 PM 11/26/2012, you wrote: Welcome aboard sir! My comments to Reiff were based on Earl Lawrence's activities on behalf of the FAA back in July of 1996 when a draft copy of the proposed change to AC43-13 was shared with EAA. Earl split up the sections and sent them out to various of his subject matter experts. Chapter 11 on electrical systems was sprinkled with toe-stubbers. I haven't been able to dig up my original response . . . but Earl got most of my work along with that of many others into his letter which you can read here. http://tinyurl.com/c5rm43k While AC43-13 contains much accurate information, the process for weeding out inaccuracies is arduous and lethargic. Hence my suggestion that Forums populated with been-there-done-that techno-wiennies tend to be lower risk than the work product of bureaucratic tech writers. [Luckey] - Bob, I believe that's techno-weenies. You may want to update your spell-checker accordingly ;) Bob . . . No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com


    Message 13


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    Time: 05:10:00 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: The hardware side
    From: "ivanallen" <Ivan_Allen@comcast.net>
    Thanks all for the quick responses. I think I was having a senior moment, but for two days? That's just not right. For some reason I was fixated on buss bars. I really like fuses and was planning on using them anyway. Problem solved. (2) 8 fuse blocks will easily do my main and essential buses. I'm using drawing z-11 as a guide. Bob, as to the aircraft, it is an avid. Two place tube and fabric with a metal firewall. It will have just the basic round guages, an EIS-4000 engine monitor, and a single panel mount radio and a transponder. Also Whelen strobe and nav lights wing tips only. Power supply for the strobes behind the baggage compartment. Fuel is gravity feed only. Electrical will be single alternator 60 amps or less. The only question I have left after all the good advice is where to mount that main and essential bus. I would prefer access to the fuses without pulling my cowling if possible. Firewall access is not great on this aircraft. All thoughts welcomed. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=389082#389082




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