---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 12/04/12: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:28 AM - current limiting an alternator (Bob Verwey) 2. 06:34 AM - Re: current limiting an alternator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 08:37 AM - Re: current limiting an alternator (Bob Verwey) 4. 09:57 AM - Re: current limiting an alternator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 12:59 PM - TM-902C Digital LCD K Type Thermometer meter (marvin haught) 6. 01:20 PM - Re: TM-902C Digital LCD K Type Thermometer meter (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 01:28 PM - Digital multimeter recommendation (Larry Winger) 8. 01:42 PM - Re: Digital multimeter recommendation (Ed Gilroy) 9. 02:12 PM - Re: Digital multimeter recommendation (Henry Hallam) 10. 02:57 PM - Re: Digital multimeter recommendation (RGent1224@aol.com) 11. 03:13 PM - Re: Digital multimeter recommendation (Ed Gilroy) 12. 03:34 PM - Re: TM-902C Digital LCD K Type Thermometer meter (marvin haught) 13. 06:59 PM - KT-76A transponder blowing fuse (Henry Hallam) 14. 08:45 PM - Initial amp spike on PTT (Bill Bradburry) 15. 09:17 PM - Re: Digital multimeter recommendation (RGent1224@aol.com) 16. 10:00 PM - Re: Initial amp spike on PTT (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:28:08 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: current limiting an alternator From: Bob Verwey Listers, Is it economically and relatively simple to limit charging current from an alternator in a 12v system? The automotive alternators have relatively high initial output and looking at my small electrical loads, I don't see the need for a massive battery...or have I got it all wrong?? Bob Verwey IO470 Bonanza A35 ZU-DLW V6 Chevy Safari ZU-AJF ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:34:33 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: current limiting an alternator At 02:26 AM 12/4/2012, you wrote: Listers, Is it economically and relatively simple to limit charging current from an alternator in a 12v system? The automotive alternators have relatively high initial output and looking at my small electrical loads, I don't see the need for a massive battery...or have I got it all wrong?? While an alternator has the CAPABILITY of delivering energy at relatively high rates, it can do so only if the LOAD is willing to accept it based on VOLTAGE DIFFERENTIALS and total loop resistance. When you hook an energy consumer across the bus, the current it requires is relatively constant and only slightly dependent on bus voltage. But an energy storage device (battery) may present a load to the bus that is initially several volts lower than the bus voltage set point. Now, you have the POTENTIAL for some serious currents to flow but even that's limited by the internal resistance of the battery. Intuitively one sees a potential hazard to, let us say, a 2 a.h. SLVA battery being totally discharged and then connected across a bus capable of delivering 40+ amps at normal bus voltages. Indeed, the itty-bitty battery's acceptance will 'spike' on initial connection but probably no where near 40 amps and it will fall rapidly. The risk to the battery is not so much from 'hammering energy into a chemical conversion'; the greatest potential for damage is from heating of the internals as a result of I(squared) x R watts being dissipated within the small mass. This is made worse by the fact that the dissipation is not necessarily spread evenly throughout the battery's chemistry. The battery will not necessarily drown upon experiencing its first 'drink from the firehose' but a series of such events will chip away at battery performance and severely shorten its potential service life. It would help to know more about your design goals. What size battery are you wanting to use? Is this battery going to be your only source of energy during failure of the boss- hog alternator? Have you established endurance goals for alternator-out operations? Aside from engine cranking, ENDURANCE goals are the big driver of battery size. Can you give us more numbers as to size of battery you want to use and how this battery fits into your consideration for a comfortable Plan-B termination of flight after an alternator failure? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:37:37 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: current limiting an alternator From: Bob Verwey Hi Bob, As usual, you have put much more thought into your answer than I did into my question! My craft is powered by a Chevy V6 with a single aftermarket ignition coil, specifically designed for "high vibration environments". My endurance goals for alternator-out operations would be 30 minutes, as I will be strictly day VFR, and with a cruise speed of 100 knots I will have some options. Electrical loads are the usual ignition system, 2 comms, GPS, landing light, but really the very basics required. No fuel pump, high wing with carb. I had the H35 battery in mind, same as in the Bonanza. I am not considering an endurance bus. Bob Verwey IO470 Bonanza A35 ZU-DLW V6 Chevy Safari ZU-AJF On 4 December 2012 16:33, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com**> > > At 02:26 AM 12/4/2012, you wrote: > Listers, > > Is it economically and relatively simple to limit charging current from an > alternator in a 12v system? The automotive alternators have relatively high > initial output and looking at my small electrical loads, I don't see the > need for a massive battery...or have I got it all wrong?? > > While an alternator has the CAPABILITY of delivering > energy at relatively high rates, it can do so only > if the LOAD is willing to accept it based on > VOLTAGE DIFFERENTIALS and total loop resistance. > > When you hook an energy consumer across the bus, > the current it requires is relatively constant and > only slightly dependent on bus voltage. But an > energy storage device (battery) may present a > load to the bus that is initially several volts > lower than the bus voltage set point. > > Now, you have the POTENTIAL for some serious > currents to flow but even that's limited by the > internal resistance of the battery. Intuitively > one sees a potential hazard to, let us say, a 2 a.h. > SLVA battery being totally discharged and then connected > across a bus capable of delivering 40+ amps > at normal bus voltages. Indeed, the itty-bitty > battery's acceptance will 'spike' on initial > connection but probably no where near 40 amps > and it will fall rapidly. The risk to the battery > is not so much from 'hammering energy into a > chemical conversion'; the greatest potential > for damage is from heating of the internals > as a result of I(squared) x R watts being > dissipated within the small mass. This is > made worse by the fact that the dissipation > is not necessarily spread evenly throughout > the battery's chemistry. > > The battery will not necessarily drown > upon experiencing its first 'drink from the > firehose' but a series of such events will > chip away at battery performance and severely > shorten its potential service life. > > It would help to know more about your design > goals. What size battery are you wanting to > use? Is this battery going to be your only > source of energy during failure of the boss- > hog alternator? Have you established endurance > goals for alternator-out operations? Aside > from engine cranking, ENDURANCE goals are the > big driver of battery size. Can you give > us more numbers as to size of battery you > want to use and how this battery fits into > your consideration for a comfortable Plan-B > termination of flight after an alternator > failure? > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:57:25 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: current limiting an alternator At 10:35 AM 12/4/2012, you wrote: Hi Bob, As usual, you have put much more thought into your answer than I did into my question! My craft is powered by a Chevy V6 with a single aftermarket ignition coil, specifically designed for "high vibration environments". My endurance goals for alternator-out operations would be 30 minutes, as I will be strictly day VFR, and with a cruise speed of 100 knots I will have some options. Electrical loads are the usual ignition system, 2 comms, GPS, landing light, but really the very basics required. No fuel pump, high wing with carb. I had the H35 battery in mind, same as in the Bonanza. I am not considering an endurance bus. Okay. According to this posting http://tinyurl.com/cryc6w3 The battery on an H35 is a 12 volt, rated at 29 a.h. for a one-hour rate. At 30 pounds this is not a wimpy device. On the certified airplane, it's paired with at least a 60A alternator. There might have been an larger alternator offered as an option. Many of our brothers are flying 17 a.h. batteries with alternators of 40 amps or more. Can you articulate a foundation for your concerns? Even if you don't have an E-bus, consider a battery bus that supplies power for the ignition system. You should be able to fly this airplane with the battery master and alternator switches OFF. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:59:01 PM PST US From: marvin haught Subject: AeroElectric-List: TM-902C Digital LCD K Type Thermometer meter I saw the thread a while back on this temp meter, and guess I missed most of it. I just ordered 10 of the units for resale (I am a distributor for Stewart Systems Aircraft Finishes) and decided the meter was a cheap alternative for the $25 multimeter that I've been selling for calibrating irons used to shrink fabric. I thought I saw a message where someone calibrated the meter using boiling water? Is my memory correct? Can someone either send that message to me again or steer me to it? M. Haught ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:20:15 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: TM-902C Digital LCD K Type Thermometer meter At 02:57 PM 12/4/2012, you wrote: > > >I saw the thread a while back on this temp meter, and guess I missed >most of it. I just ordered 10 of the units for resale (I am a >distributor for Stewart Systems Aircraft Finishes) and decided the >meter was a cheap alternative for the $25 multimeter that I've been >selling for calibrating irons used to shrink fabric. I thought I >saw a message where someone calibrated the meter using boiling >water? Is my memory correct? Can someone either send that message >to me again or steer me to it? From my archives: ------------------------------------ The procedure I used was to immerse the probe in ice water and adjust the display to 0 deg C. Next was to immerse the probe in boiling water and adjust the display to 100 deg C. Repeat until no further adjustment is needed. Raymond Julian On 10/24/2012 05:07 PM, rayj wrote: >Greetings, > >I calibrated the 3 TM-902C hand held instruments. I was able to >adjust them to read the same at both 0 and 100 deg C. It seemed to >take 2-3 cycles from cold to hot and back to get them to settle >down, but once they did they all were very consistent at both ends >of the range tested. > >As I reviewed Bob's posting I noticed that the boards in mine are a >different layout than the one pictured. I'll include a picture of >mine if I can get to upload. > >On mine one adjustment point is to the left of the yellow connector >(6:30 position) near the edge of the board. The second is located >at the 3:00 position. > >The 6:30 position adjusts the readout at 0 deg C. The 3:00 position >adjusts the readout at 100 deg C. As I mentioned earlier it seemed >to take 2-3 cycles before it becomes stable. > >On both adjustments turning clockwise lowered the value >displayed. CCW raised it. > >-- >Raymond Julian >Kettle River, MN ------------------------------------ Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:28:37 PM PST US From: Larry Winger Subject: AeroElectric-List: Digital multimeter recommendation I've just completed wiring my Zenith CH 650 and believe it is time to upgrade from the Harbor Freight multimeter I've been using. I'll like to have one that can provide audio alerts when doing continuity testing, along with all the normal functionality you would expect when troubleshooting an aircraft electrical system. It would be great if I could find a really solid, full-featured unit for under $75. Any suggestions? Larry Winger Tustin, CA Zenith CH 650/Corvair Doing final punch list before my hangar move ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:42:57 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Digital multimeter recommendation From: Ed Gilroy Buy a working Fluke off of Craigslist... On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Larry Winger wrote: > I've just completed wiring my Zenith CH 650 and believe it is time to > upgrade from the Harbor Freight multimeter I've been using. I'll like to > have one that can provide audio alerts when doing continuity testing, along > with all the normal functionality you would expect when troubleshooting an > aircraft electrical system. It would be great if I could find a really > solid, full-featured unit for under $75. Any suggestions? > > Larry Winger > Tustin, CA > Zenith CH 650/Corvair > Doing final punch list before my hangar move > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:12:49 PM PST US From: Henry Hallam Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Digital multimeter recommendation Agreed (or eBay). Used Fluke 77 meters are around your price range and they're great. Especially if there's any RF interference around, it's really worth having a quality meter. Henry On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 1:40 PM, Ed Gilroy wrote: > Buy a working Fluke off of Craigslist... > > > On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Larry Winger wrote: >> >> I've just completed wiring my Zenith CH 650 and believe it is time to >> upgrade from the Harbor Freight multimeter I've been using. I'll like to >> have one that can provide audio alerts when doing continuity testing, along >> with all the normal functionality you would expect when troubleshooting an >> aircraft electrical system. It would be great if I could find a really >> solid, full-featured unit for under $75. Any suggestions? >> >> Larry Winger >> Tustin, CA >> Zenith CH 650/Corvair >> Doing final punch list before my hangar move >> >> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com >> .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com >> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> tp://forums.matronics.com >> > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:57:36 PM PST US From: RGent1224@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Digital multimeter recommendation Question I have a Fluke 8020 B multimeter and I think it needs to be calibrated. The voltages appear to be off a bit. How much would it cost and anyplace where it could be done. Thanks, Dick In a message dated 12/4/2012 4:13:33 P.M. Central Standard Time, henry@pericynthion.org writes: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Henry Hallam Agreed (or eBay). Used Fluke 77 meters are around your price range and they're great. Especially if there's any RF interference around, it's really worth having a quality meter. Henry On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 1:40 PM, Ed Gilroy wrote: > Buy a working Fluke off of Craigslist... > > > On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Larry Winger wrote: >> >> I've just completed wiring my Zenith CH 650 and believe it is time to >> upgrade from the Harbor Freight multimeter I've been using. I'll like to >> have one that can provide audio alerts when doing continuity testing, along >> with all the normal functionality you would expect when troubleshooting an >> aircraft electrical system. It would be great if I could find a really >> solid, full-featured unit for under $75. Any suggestions? >> >> Larry Winger >> Tustin, CA >> Zenith CH 650/Corvair >> Doing final punch list before my hangar move >> >> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com >> .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com >> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> tp://forums.matronics.com >> > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:13:58 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Digital multimeter recommendation From: Ed Gilroy http://www.fluke.com/fluke/usen/service/calibration/default.htm On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 5:55 PM, wrote: > ** > Question I have a Fluke 8020 B multimeter and I think it needs to be > calibrated. The voltages appear to be off a bit. How much would it cost and > anyplace where it could be done. > Thanks, > Dick > > In a message dated 12/4/2012 4:13:33 P.M. Central Standard Time, > henry@pericynthion.org writes: > > henry@pericynthion.org> > > Agreed (or eBay). Used Fluke 77 meters are around your price range > and they're great. Especially if there's any RF interference around, > it's really worth having a quality meter. > > Henry > > On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 1:40 PM, Ed Gilroy wrote: > > Buy a working Fluke off of Craigslist... > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Larry Winger > wrote: > >> > >> I've just completed wiring my Zenith CH 650 and believe it is time to > >> upgrade from the Harbor Freight multimeter I've been using. I'll like > to > >> have one that can provide audio alerts when doing continuity testing, > along > >> with all the normal functionality you would expect when troubleshooting > an > >> aircraft electrical system. It would be great if I could find a really > >> solid, full-featured unit for under $75. Any suggestions? > >> > >> Larry Winger > >> Tustin, CA > >> Zenith CH 650/Corvair > >> Doing final punch list before my hangar move > >> > >> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com > >> .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com > >> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com > >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > >> ist" target="_blank"> > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > >> tp://forums.matronics.com > >> > > > > > > > > > bsp; (And Get Some AWESOME FREE o find ifts bsp; lder's LP you > for ; -Matt Dralle, List = Use ilities ay > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS > > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:34:56 PM PST US From: marvin haught Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: TM-902C Digital LCD K Type Thermometer meter Thanks Bob - Just what I needed. M. Haught On 12/4/2012 3:19 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 02:57 PM 12/4/2012, you wrote: >> >> >> I saw the thread a while back on this temp meter, and guess I missed >> most of it. I just ordered 10 of the units for resale (I am a >> distributor for Stewart Systems Aircraft Finishes) and decided the >> meter was a cheap alternative for the $25 multimeter that I've been >> selling for calibrating irons used to shrink fabric. I thought I saw >> a message where someone calibrated the meter using boiling water? Is >> my memory correct? Can someone either send that message to me again >> or steer me to it? > > > From my archives: > ------------------------------------ > > The procedure I used was to immerse the probe in ice water and adjust > the display to 0 deg C. Next was to immerse the probe in boiling > water and adjust the display to 100 deg C. Repeat until no further > adjustment is needed. > > Raymond Julian > > On 10/24/2012 05:07 PM, rayj wrote: >> Greetings, >> >> I calibrated the 3 TM-902C hand held instruments. I was able to >> adjust them to read the same at both 0 and 100 deg C. It seemed to >> take 2-3 cycles from cold to hot and back to get them to settle down, >> but once they did they all were very consistent at both ends of the >> range tested. >> >> As I reviewed Bob's posting I noticed that the boards in mine are a >> different layout than the one pictured. I'll include a picture of >> mine if I can get to upload. >> >> On mine one adjustment point is to the left of the yellow connector >> (6:30 position) near the edge of the board. The second is located at >> the 3:00 position. >> >> The 6:30 position adjusts the readout at 0 deg C. The 3:00 position >> adjusts the readout at 100 deg C. As I mentioned earlier it seemed >> to take 2-3 cycles before it becomes stable. >> >> On both adjustments turning clockwise lowered the value displayed. >> CCW raised it. >> >> -- >> Raymond Julian >> Kettle River, MN > > ------------------------------------ > > Bob . . . > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:59:50 PM PST US From: Henry Hallam Subject: AeroElectric-List: KT-76A transponder blowing fuse Dear Aeroelectrons, My KT-76A (ser # 33921) has been occasionally tripping its 2A breaker for a while. I let it run on the bench with a power logger and a 3A supply and now after 30 minutes it has blown its internal 2A fuse. No obvious burned components or leaky capacitors... any ideas for failure modes? Does anyone have a schematic? Thanks, Henry ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:45:58 PM PST US From: "Bill Bradburry" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Initial amp spike on PTT My hangar mate and I checked the current in the wire pulled to ground by the PTT and found an initial spike of almost 2 amps. This seems excessive to me. After the initial spike it dropped down to a low number that I don't currently remember, but close to what I would think is acceptable in the millamp range. The radio is a Garmin GNS 430W. Any comments on this? Bill B ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:17:16 PM PST US From: RGent1224@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Digital multimeter recommendation Thanks In a message dated 12/4/2012 5:14:55 P.M. Central Standard Time, egilroy@gmail.com writes: _http://www.fluke.com/fluke/usen/service/calibration/default.htm_ (http://www.fluke.com/fluke/usen/service/calibration/default.htm) On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 5:55 PM, <_RGent1224@aol.com_ (mailto:RGent1224@aol.com) > wrote: Question I have a Fluke 8020 B multimeter and I think it needs to be calibrated. The voltages appear to be off a bit. How much would it cost and anyplace where it could be done. Thanks, Dick In a message dated 12/4/2012 4:13:33 P.M. Central Standard Time, _henry@pericynthion.org_ (mailto:henry@pericynthion.org) writes: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Henry Hallam <_henry@pericynthion.org_ (mailto:henry@pericynthion.org) > Agreed (or eBay). Used Fluke 77 meters are around your price range and they're great. Especially if there's any RF interference around, it's really worth having a quality meter. Henry On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 1:40 PM, Ed Gilroy <_egilroy@gmail.com_ (mailto:egilroy@gmail.com) > wrote: > Buy a working Fluke off of Craigslist... > > > On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Larry Winger <_larrywinger@gmail.com_ (mailto:larrywinger@gmail.com) > wrote: >> >> I've just completed wiring my Zenith CH 650 and believe it is time to >> upgrade from the Harbor Freight multimeter I've been using. I'll like to >> have one that can provide audio alerts when doing continuity testing, along >> with all the normal functionality you would expect when troubleshooting an >> aircraft electrical system. It would be great if I could find a really >> solid, full-featured unit for under $75. Any suggestions? >> >> Larry Winger >> Tustin, CA >> Zenith CH 650/Corvair >> Doing final punch list before my hangar move >> >> _blank">_www.aeroelectric.com_ (http://www.aeroelectric.com/) >> .com" target="_blank">_www.buildersbooks.com_ (http://www.buildersbooks.com/) >> ="_blank">_www.homebuilthelp.com_ (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/) >> _blank">_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) >> ist" target="_blank">_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List) >> tp://_forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) >> > > bsp; (And Get Some AWESOME FREE o find ifts bsp; lder's LP you for ; -Matt Dralle, List = Use ilities ay - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS _blank">www.aeroelectric.com .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List tp://forums.matronics.com (http://www.aeroelectric.com/) (http://www.buildersbooks.com/) (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List) ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:00:09 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Initial amp spike on PTT At 10:43 PM 12/4/2012, you wrote: > > >My hangar mate and I checked the current in the wire pulled to ground by the >PTT and found an initial spike of almost 2 amps. This seems excessive to >me. After the initial spike it dropped down to a low number that I don't >currently remember, but close to what I would think is acceptable in the >millamp range. What is the duration of the spike? The PTT line coming out of the radio may have some form of RFI ingress protection that includes capacitance to ground. Any capacitor rapidly discharged through the PTT circuit will produce some large 'inrush' currents but they're typically very short duration hence low energy. 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