Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:51 AM - Re: Li-Ion hazards (GLEN MATEJCEK)
2. 06:53 AM - Re: Li-Ion hazards (Eric M. Jones)
3. 08:05 AM - Re: Re: Li-Ion hazards (Roger & Jean Curtis)
4. 08:19 AM - Re: Re: Li-Ion hazards (BobsV35B@aol.com)
5. 09:27 AM - Re: Re: Li-Ion hazards (David Lloyd)
6. 09:28 AM - Re: Re: Li-Ion hazards (Dj Merrill)
7. 11:02 AM - Re: Re: Li-Ion hazards (BobsV35B@aol.com)
8. 12:36 PM - Re: Re: Li-Ion hazards (rayj)
9. 01:20 PM - Re: Re: Li-Ion hazards (BobsV35B@aol.com)
10. 07:33 PM - Re: Re: Li-Ion hazards (Jeff B.)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Li-Ion hazards |
A design concept I've seen more than once is to have NiCads mounted in an
unpressurized area, down low, with nothing under them but skin...
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 7:57 AM, AeroElectric-List Digest Server <
aeroelectric-list@matronics.com> wrote:
> *
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> ----------------------------------------------------------
> AeroElectric-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Sat 02/09/13: 10
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
> 1. 09:36 AM - Li-Ion hazards (Jan de Jong)
> 2. 10:59 AM - Re: Li-Ion hazards (rayj)
> 3. 11:08 AM - Re: OT: SMT solder bridge (rayj)
> 4. 11:08 AM - Re: Li-Ion hazards (Roger & Jean Curtis)
> 5. 11:17 AM - Soldering knowledge source (rayj)
> 6. 11:21 AM - Re: Li-Ion hazards (rayj)
> 7. 11:44 AM - Re: Li-Ion hazards (Tim Olson)
> 8. 11:46 AM - SD-20 Alternator / SB1B-14 regulator failure modes -
> update (Ralph E. Capen)
> 9. 12:50 PM - Re: Li-Ion hazards (Richard Girard)
> 10. 01:57 PM - Re: Li-Ion hazards (Jan de Jong)
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 1
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 09:36:47 AM PST US
> From: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong@casema.nl>
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Li-Ion hazards
>
>
> For those who are really interested a comprehensive treatment of the
> dangers of Li-Ion:
>
> http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/Research/RFLithiumIonBatteriesHazard.pdf
>
> LiFePO4 is a lot less volatile and violent than most of the Li-Ion group.
> But it shares unfortunate properties:
> - thermal runaway can never be excluded: undetectable internal damage
> may exist and trigger at the end of a charging cycle
> - the electrolyte is flammable hydrocarbons
>
> I looks like "containment" will be part of any aviation design with
> Li-Ion batteries.
>
> Jan de Jong
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 2
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 10:59:40 AM PST US
> From: rayj <raymondj@frontiernet.net>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Li-Ion hazards
>
> Thanks for posting this. Thereis no substitute forgood science and the
> knowledge gained from it.
>
> do not archive
>
> Raymond Julian
> Kettle River, MN.
>
> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
>
> On 02/09/2013 11:34 AM, Jan de Jong wrote:
> > <jan_de_jong@casema.nl>
> >
> > For those who are really interested a comprehensive treatment of the
> > dangers of Li-Ion:
> >
> http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/Research/RFLithiumIonBatteriesHazard.pdf
> >
> >
> > LiFePO4 is a lot less volatile and violent than most of the Li-Ion group.
> > But it shares unfortunate properties:
> > - thermal runaway can never be excluded: undetectable internal damage
> > may exist and trigger at the end of a charging cycle
> > - the electrolyte is flammable hydrocarbons
> >
> > I looks like "containment" will be part of any aviation design with
> > Li-Ion batteries.
> >
> > Jan de Jong
> >
> >
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 3
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 11:08:09 AM PST US
> From: rayj <raymondj@frontiernet.net>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: OT: SMT solder bridge
>
> Greetings,
>
> Well...It's confession time. After 2 hours of tentative poking, heating,
> fluxing, wiping and inspecting it turned out that the "solder bridge"
> was actually a pad that 2 leads on the chip were supposed to share.
> That little detail aside, I learned a great deal about SMT soldering and
> rework.
>
> Thanks to everyone who offered guidance.
>
> do not archive
>
> Raymond Julian
> Kettle River, MN.
>
> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
>
> On 02/04/2013 03:44 PM, rayj wrote:
> > Greetings,
> >
> > I was inspecting anew electronic device that wasn't working and found
> > a solder bridge between 2 of the pins on an SMT chip.
> >
> > I'm looking for an easy way to remove it. My plan is to use a hot
> > needle to touch it and maybe I can sweep or blow it away. I'm open to
> > suggestions, keeping in mind I have no equipment for working on SMT
> > components.
> >
> > do not archive
> >
> > Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
> > --
> > Raymond Julian
> > Kettle River, MN.
> >
> > "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
> > and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
> > *
> >
> >
> > *
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 4
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 11:08:49 AM PST US
> From: "Roger & Jean Curtis" <mrspudandcompany@verizon.net>
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Li-Ion hazards
>
>
> I looks like "containment" will be part of any aviation design with
> Li-Ion batteries.
>
> Jan de Jong
>
>
> Perhaps a mechanism to jettison the battery when it reaches
> ignition temperature would work. A better solution IMHO is
> to not even consider using the Li-Ion battery, at this stage
> of development. The cons far exceed the pros.
>
> Roger
>
>
> _____
>
> ..
>
> Do you have a slow PC? <
> http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen>
> Try a free scan!
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 5
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 11:17:20 AM PST US
> From: rayj <raymondj@frontiernet.net>
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Soldering knowledge source
>
> As part of my SMT rework adventure, I was sent a site that has a great
> deal of infoon soldering.
>
> Thanks to Robert Korff for sending it to me, it belongs in the archive.
>
> _http://www.solder.net/technical-info/soldering-tip-videos_
>
> --
> Raymond Julian
> Kettle River, MN.
>
> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 6
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 11:21:02 AM PST US
> From: rayj <raymondj@frontiernet.net>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Li-Ion hazards
>
> I wouldn't be surprised if the weight/cost of catastrophe management may
> make the Li based battery systems less attractive from an energy density
> standpoint.
>
> do not archive
>
> Raymond Julian
> Kettle River, MN.
>
> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
>
> On 02/09/2013 01:08 PM, Roger & Jean Curtis wrote:
> >
> >
> > I looks like "containment" will be part of any aviation design with
> > Li-Ion batteries.
> >
> > Jan de Jong
> >
> >
> > Perhaps a mechanism to jettison the battery when it reaches
> > ignition temperature would work. A better solution IMHO is
> > to not even consider using the Li-Ion battery, at this stage
> > of development. The cons far exceed the pros.
> >
> > Roger
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> > .
> >
> > Do you have a slow PC? <
> http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen>
> > Try a free scan!
> >
> >
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 7
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 11:44:27 AM PST US
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Li-Ion hazards
> From: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>
>
> Cool, flaming meteorites falling everywhere for people on the ground to
> see!
> Tim
>
>
> On Feb 9, 2013, at 1:08 PM, "Roger & Jean Curtis" <
> mrspudandcompany@verizon.net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I looks like "containment" will be part of any aviation design with
> > Li-Ion batteries.
> >
> > Jan de Jong
> >
> >
> > Perhaps a mechanism to jettison the battery when it reaches
> > ignition temperature would work. A better solution IMHO is
> > to not even consider using the Li-Ion battery, at this stage
> > of development. The cons far exceed the pros.
> >
> > Roger
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> > .
> >
> > Do you have a slow PC? <
> http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen>
> > Try a free scan!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 8
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 11:46:33 AM PST US
> From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen@earthlink.net>
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: SD-20 Alternator / SB1B-14 regulator failure
> modes
> - update
>
>
> In my case, it was the drive gear that goes in to the accessory case.
>
> There's a rubber thingy inside that was in a bunch of pieces. The safety
> catch
> did it's job so the parts didn't float in to the engine. It all came out
> together
> - but it was very obvious that the gear wasn't driving.
>
> Anyone know if that is replaceable? Looks like it could be - just maybe
> not by
> me.....I'll ask the folks @ B & C.
>
> Ralph Capen
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 9
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 12:50:02 PM PST US
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Li-Ion hazards
> From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
>
> Jan, Perhaps it should be treated as Scotty treated the warp core of the
> Enterprise and eject them when there's trouble. :-}
>
> Rick Girard
> do not archive
>
> On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong@casema.nl>
> wrote:
>
> > jan_de_jong@casema.nl>
> >
> > For those who are really interested a comprehensive treatment of the
> > dangers of Li-Ion:
> > http://www.nfpa.org/assets/**files/PDF/Research/**
> > RFLithiumIonBatteriesHazard.**pdf<
> http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/Research/RFLithiumIonBatteriesHazard.pdf
> >
> >
> > LiFePO4 is a lot less volatile and violent than most of the Li-Ion group.
> > But it shares unfortunate properties:
> > - thermal runaway can never be excluded: undetectable internal damage may
> > exist and trigger at the end of a charging cycle
> > - the electrolyte is flammable hydrocarbons
> >
> > I looks like "containment" will be part of any aviation design with
> Li-Ion
> > batteries.
> >
> > Jan de Jong
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Zulu Delta
> Mk IIIC
> Thanks, Homer GBYM
>
> It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
> - Groucho Marx
>
> ________________________________ Message 10
> ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 01:57:36 PM PST US
> From: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong@casema.nl>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Li-Ion hazards
>
> Maybe airplanes can be equipped with a black hole for garbage disposal
> (black hole traveling along in a parallel universe).
>
> Jan de Jong
> do not archive
>
> On 2/9/2013 9:48 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
> > Jan, Perhaps it should be treated as Scotty treated the warp core of
> > the Enterprise and eject them when there's trouble. :-}
> >
> > Rick Girard
> > do not archive
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong@casema.nl
> > <mailto:jan_de_jong@casema.nl>> wrote:
> >
> > <jan_de_jong@casema.nl <mailto:jan_de_jong@casema.nl>>
> >
> > For those who are really interested a comprehensive treatment of
> > the dangers of Li-Ion:
> >
> http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/Research/RFLithiumIonBatteriesHazard.pdf
> >
> > LiFePO4 is a lot less volatile and violent than most of the Li-Ion
> > group.
> > But it shares unfortunate properties:
> > - thermal runaway can never be excluded: undetectable internal
> > damage may exist and trigger at the end of a charging cycle
> > - the electrolyte is flammable hydrocarbons
> >
> > I looks like "containment" will be part of any aviation design
> > with Li-Ion batteries.
> >
> > Jan de Jong
> >
> >
> > ==================================
> > -List"
> > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> > ==================================
> > http://forums.matronics.com
> > ==================================
> > le, List Admin.
> > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> > ==================================
> >
> >
> > --
> > Zulu Delta
> > Mk IIIC
> > Thanks, Homer GBYM
> >
> > It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be
> > unhappy.
> > - Groucho Marx
> >
> > *
> >
> >
> > *
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Li-Ion hazards |
Do not archive
Don't panic yet. Whatever electric vehicles use, and whatever safety measures are
employed, you can use too.
In any case, ejecting a flaming battery could land you in jail. So use the Airframe
and Powerplant Mechanics Rule (told to me by a Pan-American mechanic): Never
write your name or initials on any tool that might get left inside an aircraft.
This would probably apply to batteries too.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=393952#393952
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Li-Ion hazards |
Do not archive
Don't panic yet. Whatever electric vehicles use, and whatever safety
measures are employed, you can use too.
As with your electric vehicle, when you are driving along and
your battery starts to flame, just pull your airplane over and
get out!!
Roger
_____
.
Do you have a slow PC? <http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen>
Try a free scan!
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Li-Ion hazards |
Good Morning All,
How about this?
Do any of you recall how the batteries are mounted on a Douglas DC-3?
They are on a platform which can be easily dropped out of the bottom of the
fuselage. They can then be easily disconnected and removed while the
technician is standing comfortably on the ground beneath the cover provided by
the airplane. A great idea.
Why not do the same thing with the problem child batteries, but eliminate
the stop the DC-3 has so the battery would simply drop away? The contacts
could be simple knife blade connectors which would open automatically as the
battery fell.
For pressurized flying machines, the battery compartment could be exterior
to the pressure vessel. looks like it should work OK to me!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 2/10/2013 10:07:56 A.M. Central Standard Time,
mrspudandcompany@verizon.net writes:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Roger & Jean Curtis"
<mrspudandcompany@verizon.net>
Do not archive
Don't panic yet. Whatever electric vehicles use, and whatever safety
measures are employed, you can use too.
As with your electric vehicle, when you are driving along and
your battery starts to flame, just pull your airplane over and
get out!!
Roger
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Li-Ion hazards |
Hi Old Bob,
...always enjoy your comments...
This Lithium battery will be Boeing scourge for a while. Like having
the Doc take you off the team and put you to bed for a small splinter in
your pinky.
Your Li battery disposal idea is a good one except for the occasional
cow and coyote that gets bopped on the head by the falling melting
flamer...
David
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
----- Original Message -----
From: BobsV35B@aol.com
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 8:18 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Li-Ion hazards
Good Morning All,
How about this?
Do any of you recall how the batteries are mounted on a Douglas DC-3?
They are on a platform which can be easily dropped out of the bottom
of the fuselage. They can then be easily disconnected and removed while
the technician is standing comfortably on the ground beneath the cover
provided by the airplane. A great idea.
Why not do the same thing with the problem child batteries, but
eliminate the stop the DC-3 has so the battery would simply drop away?
The contacts could be simple knife blade connectors which would open
automatically as the battery fell.
For pressurized flying machines, the battery compartment could be
exterior to the pressure vessel. looks like it should work OK to me!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 2/10/2013 10:07:56 A.M. Central Standard Time,
mrspudandcompany@verizon.net writes:
<mrspudandcompany@verizon.net>
Do not archive
Don't panic yet. Whatever electric vehicles use, and whatever safety
measures are employed, you can use too.
As with your electric vehicle, when you are driving along
and
your battery starts to flame, just pull your airplane over
and
get out!!
Roger
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Li-Ion hazards |
On 2/10/2013 11:18 AM, BobsV35B@aol.com wrote:
> Why not do the same thing with the problem child batteries, but
> eliminate the stop the DC-3 has so the battery would simply drop away?
Just make sure the batteries are located on CG... :-)
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV - VP EAA Chapter 87
Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Li-Ion hazards |
Excellent Suggestion Dj.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 2/10/2013 11:29:44 A.M. Central Standard Time,
deej@deej.net writes:
On 2/10/2013 11:18 AM, _BobsV35B@aol.com_ (mailto:BobsV35B@aol.com) wrote:
Why not do the same thing with the problem child batteries, but eliminate
the stop the DC-3 has so the battery would simply drop away?
Just make sure the batteries are located on CG... :-)
-Dj
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Li-Ion hazards |
How about just putting the platform on a cable. The platformdrops far
enough not to be a hazard to the aircraft, then is released at a chosen
time and place before landing. Could even reel it back up close to the
fuselage after the fire is out and then land.
do not archive
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
On 02/10/2013 10:18 AM, BobsV35B@aol.com wrote:
> Good Morning All,
> How about this?
> Do any of you recall how the batteries are mounted on a Douglas DC-3?
> They are on a platform which can be easily dropped out of the bottom
> of the fuselage. They can then be easily disconnected and removed
> while the technician is standing comfortably on the ground beneath the
> cover provided by the airplane. A great idea.
> Why not do the same thing with the problem child batteries, but
> eliminate the stop the DC-3 has so the battery would simply drop away?
> The contacts could be simple knife blade connectors which would open
> automatically as the battery fell.
> For pressurized flying machines, the battery compartment could be
> exterior to the pressure vessel. looks like it should work OK to me!
> Happy Skies,
> Old Bob
> In a message dated 2/10/2013 10:07:56 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> mrspudandcompany@verizon.net writes:
>
> <mrspudandcompany@verizon.net>
>
>
> Do not archive
>
> Don't panic yet. Whatever electric vehicles use, and whatever safety
> measures are employed, you can use too.
>
>
> As with your electric vehicle, when you are driving along and
> your battery starts to flame, just pull your airplane over
> and
> get out!!
>
> Roger
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Li-Ion hazards |
See! The group thought process works.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 2/10/2013 2:37:21 P.M. Central Standard Time,
raymondj@frontiernet.net writes:
How about just putting the platform on a cable. The platform drops far
enough not to be a hazard to the aircraft, then is released at a chosen time
and place before landing. Could even reel it back up close to the
fuselage after the fire is out and then land.
do not archive
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
On 02/10/2013 10:18 AM, _BobsV35B@aol.com_ (mailto:BobsV35B@aol.com)
wrote:
Good Morning All,
How about this?
Do any of you recall how the batteries are mounted on a Douglas DC-3?
They are on a platform which can be easily dropped out of the bottom of
the fuselage. They can then be easily disconnected and removed while the
technician is standing comfortably on the ground beneath the cover provided by
the airplane. A great idea.
Why not do the same thing with the problem child batteries, but eliminate
the stop the DC-3 has so the battery would simply drop away? The contacts
could be simple knife blade connectors which would open automatically as the
battery fell.
For pressurized flying machines, the battery compartment could be exterior
to the pressure vessel. looks like it should work OK to me!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
Message 10
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|
| Subject: | Re: Li-Ion hazards |
Or, perhaps a chemical that is micro-encapsulated (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro-encapsulation) where the encapsulation
melts at thermal run-away temperature, but not during normal operation,
such that the chemical reaction leading to fire is halted. I guess the
trick would be to come up with something that doesn't degrade the useful
capacity and internal resistance of the battery but can quickly activate
such that the items exterior to the battery are saved.
-Jeff-
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 2:19 PM, <BobsV35B@aol.com> wrote:
> **
> See! The group thought process works.
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
>
> In a message dated 2/10/2013 2:37:21 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> raymondj@frontiernet.net writes:
>
> How about just putting the platform on a cable. The platform drops far
> enough not to be a hazard to the aircraft, then is released at a chosen
> time and place before landing. Could even reel it back up close to the
> fuselage after the fire is out and then land.
>
> do not archive
>
> Raymond Julian
> Kettle River, MN.
>
> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
>
> On 02/10/2013 10:18 AM, BobsV35B@aol.com wrote:
>
> Good Morning All,
>
> How about this?
>
> Do any of you recall how the batteries are mounted on a Douglas DC-3?
>
> They are on a platform which can be easily dropped out of the bottom of
> the fuselage. They can then be easily disconnected and removed while the
> technician is standing comfortably on the ground beneath the cover provided
> by the airplane. A great idea.
>
> Why not do the same thing with the problem child batteries, but eliminate
> the stop the DC-3 has so the battery would simply drop away? The contacts
> could be simple knife blade connectors which would open automatically as
> the battery fell.
>
> For pressurized flying machines, the battery compartment could be exterior
> to the pressure vessel. looks like it should work OK to me!
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
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