Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:00 AM - Re: Re: IBBS backup battery vs backup alt? (Bob Verwey)
2. 03:19 AM - Re: Re: IBBS backup battery vs backup alt? (Jay Hyde)
3. 07:48 AM - Re: IBBS backup battery vs backup alt? (user9253)
4. 08:24 AM - Re: Re: Avionics Wire Lister? (Jay Hyde)
5. 08:30 AM - Re: Re: IBBS backup battery vs backup alt? (Jay Hyde)
6. 11:14 AM - Diagram Z-13 (Andy)
7. 11:26 AM - Re: Diagram Z-13 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 12:33 PM - Re: Diagram Z-13 (Andy)
9. 12:49 PM - Boeing 787 battery issues heats up (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 01:02 PM - Re: Diagram Z-13 ()
11. 01:03 PM - Crowbar OVM (Andy)
12. 02:33 PM - Re: Diagram Z-13 (Andy)
13. 04:00 PM - Re: Diagram Z-13 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
14. 06:24 PM - Re: Diagram Z-13 (Andy)
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| Subject: | Re: IBBS backup battery vs backup alt? |
So here is my question, probably answered before on this forum....
Day VFR with an internally regulated alternator, electronic ignition auto
engine, no EFIS, fuel pump or other essential electrical services except
COMM.
With a dedicated batt buss for the ignition, what other precautions /
additions should I consider?
Best...
Bob Verwey
A35 Bonanza ZU-DLW
Chevy Safari ZU-AJF
On Wednesday, 13 February 2013, user9253 wrote:
>
> Many alternators will continue to operate after the battery has been
> disconnected. Testing on the ground will determine if your alternators
> behave this way. Chances are that the pilot will be unaware of a master
> contactor failure, because the alternator and electrical loads will
> continue to operate normally. The pilot might not realize the master
> contactor has failed until the next attempt to start the engine.
> Dual alternators are desirable for those who wish to continue flying for
> an extended time period after the main alternator fails. For many pilots,
> a second alternator is unnecessary weight, cost, and complexity. The
> aircraft battery will supply electrical power until landing.
> An avionics backup battery is not required because the aircraft battery
> provides backup power through the E-Bus circuit.
> In the event of a fire or an imminent crash, the pilot should have the
> ability to shut off all electrical power as close to the source as
> possible. A long wire from the battery to the aux alternator does not meet
> this requirement.
> Joe
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394198#394198
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: IBBS backup battery vs backup alt? |
Hey there Bob,
I think that for a battery dependant engine dual battery architechture with
LV warning and engine battery disconnect is essential. The idea that you
need just one component to fail to force a landing is not comfortable. It
may be that you are very good at checking your battery condition every year,
but then you forget to properly tighten the terminal post. or something
similar. I use dual batteries and alternate paths.
Jay
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Verwey
Sent: 14 February 2013 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: IBBS backup battery vs backup alt?
So here is my question, probably answered before on this forum....
Day VFR with an internally regulated alternator, electronic ignition auto
engine, no EFIS, fuel pump or other essential electrical services except
COMM.
With a dedicated batt buss for the ignition, what other precautions /
additions should I consider?
Best...
Bob Verwey
A35 Bonanza ZU-DLW
Chevy Safari ZU-AJF
On Wednesday, 13 February 2013, user9253 wrote:
Many alternators will continue to operate after the battery has been
disconnected. Testing on the ground will determine if your alternators
behave this way. Chances are that the pilot will be unaware of a master
contactor failure, because the alternator and electrical loads will continue
to operate normally. The pilot might not realize the master contactor has
failed until the next attempt to start the engine.
Dual alternators are desirable for those who wish to continue flying for
an extended time period after the main alternator fails. For many pilots, a
second alternator is unnecessary weight, cost, and complexity. The
aircraft battery will supply electrical power until landing.
An avionics backup battery is not required because the aircraft battery
provides backup power through the E-Bus circuit.
In the event of a fire or an imminent crash, the pilot should have the
ability to shut off all electrical power as close to the source as possible.
A long wire from the battery to the aux alternator does not meet this
requirement.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394198#394198
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| Subject: | Re: IBBS backup battery vs backup alt? |
An electrically dependent engine is not necessarily a battery dependent engine.
Viking Aircraft has determined that their engines will continue to run with
the battery disconnected, powered by the alternator.
If there are dual electronic ignitions, one can be connected to the battery bus
and the other connected to the main bus.
A small "brownout" battery can be connected to an EFIS to prevent rebooting from
voltage sag during engine cranking.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394262#394262
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| Subject: | Re: Avionics Wire Lister? |
I have attached a short pdf shot of my spreadsheet; the left most column
is
for the wire numbers; the next column is for any connector that I may
have
(I use barrel connectors and a variety of DB connectors that I then give
codes numbers/ names to). The last column describes the circuit that
the
wire may be found in. You could add a 'from' and 'to' column, but I
think
that that is overkill- all you need is the circuit that the wire is
associated with and then it's easy to find on your diagram.
I always find that you allocate all the numbers in sequence and its all
neat
and organised, and then the client, or you, remembers something that
needs
power and your neat sequence is all messed up. And that makes finding
the
wire numbers very difficult, hence this list.
Jay
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
HH Enterprises-
- Supply and installation of top class water filters
for your best drinking experience!
- Aircraft assembly, repair, wiring and avionics
- Flight instruction
- General and Electrical Engineering services
---------------(NHD Elec Eng, BTech Elec
Eng, GDE ELec Eng)
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
dalemed
Sent: 12 February 2013 06:50 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Avionics Wire Lister?
jay(at)horriblehyde.com wrote:
> I simply put it all down on a spreadsheet.
>
> Jay
>
>
> --
Can you show us what the spreadsheet looks like? An image would be
worth a
thousand words.
Thanks,
Dale
--------
Dale
Flying Cessna 170B
Building Zenith CH650
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394149#394149
List
7-Day
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: IBBS backup battery vs backup alt? |
Fair enough; the engine may have some other built in safeguard, or an
alternator especially designed for batteryless operation, and you may then
take that into account. However, and here I am not completely sure, but I
think that most alternators will only self power above a certain speed; drop
below that speed and the alternator cannot 'self-boot', unless it is a
permanent magnet type.
Generally, all 4 stroke gasoline auto engines, will not be able to run when
the battery is disconnected. You may have a battery bus and a main bus, but
what if the battery terminal post corrodes, or breaks, or perhaps the
connecting bolt and nut on the terminal works loose? There go both your
battery bus and your main bus...
Jay
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
HH Enterprises
Supply and installation of top class water filters
for your best drinking experience!
Aircraft assembly, repair, wiring and avionics
Flight instruction
General and Electrical Engineering services
(NHD Elec Eng, BTech Elec Eng, GDE ELec Eng)
Great dinner parties and conversation
General adventuring, climbing, kayaking and living
Blog: www.rawhyde.wordpress.com
Cel: 083300 8675
Email: jay@horriblehyde.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of user9253
Sent: 14 February 2013 05:45 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: IBBS backup battery vs backup alt?
An electrically dependent engine is not necessarily a battery dependent
engine. Viking Aircraft has determined that their engines will continue to
run with the battery disconnected, powered by the alternator.
If there are dual electronic ignitions, one can be connected to the
battery bus and the other connected to the main bus.
A small "brownout" battery can be connected to an EFIS to prevent
rebooting from voltage sag during engine cranking.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394262#394262
Message 6
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Reference Diagram Z-13 from the main power distribution bus the alt field wire
shows a fusable link followed by a circuit breaker then the switch. Is it an option
either fusable link or circuit breaker?
Could you also just use a fuse in the fuse holder, it just introduces "gremlins"
the fuse holder could be loose or corrode ?
Thanks,
Andy
Sent from my iPhone
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| Subject: | Re: Diagram Z-13 |
At 01:12 PM 2/14/2013, you wrote:
>
>
>Reference Diagram Z-13 from the main power distribution bus the alt
>field wire shows a fusable link followed by a circuit breaker then
>the switch. Is it an option either fusable link or circuit breaker?
Are your busses tapped with circuit breakers or fuses?
z-13 illustrates the use of fuse blocks. The crowbar
ovm systems require a panel mounted breaker. Hence, the
BUS is EXTENDED from the fuse block to the breaker;
the extension is protected with a very robust fuse
or 'fusible link'.
If you're building with breakers, then the fusible
link is not necessary.
>Could you also just use a fuse in the fuse holder, it just
>introduces "gremlins" the fuse holder could be loose or corrode
Look up Fusible Link on the website. This
is a special kind of fuse used in limited
and unique situations.
Bob . . .
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| Subject: | Re: Diagram Z-13 |
I am wired with the auto fuse blocks, i understand the fuseable link concept, i
think. I'm having trouble understanding why the crowbar OVM requires the circuit
breaker instead of using an auto fuse.
Thanks again for all your shared info,
Andy
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 14, 2013, at 1:26 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
wrote:
>
> At 01:12 PM 2/14/2013, you wrote:
>>
>>
>> Reference Diagram Z-13 from the main power distribution bus the alt field wire
shows a fusable link followed by a circuit breaker then the switch. Is it an
option either fusable link or circuit breaker?
>
> Are your busses tapped with circuit breakers or fuses?
>
> z-13 illustrates the use of fuse blocks. The crowbar
> ovm systems require a panel mounted breaker. Hence, the
> BUS is EXTENDED from the fuse block to the breaker;
> the extension is protected with a very robust fuse
> or 'fusible link'.
>
> If you're building with breakers, then the fusible
> link is not necessary.
>
>> Could you also just use a fuse in the fuse holder, it just introduces "gremlins"
the fuse holder could be loose or corrode
>
> Look up Fusible Link on the website. This
> is a special kind of fuse used in limited
> and unique situations.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Boeing 787 battery issues heats up |
For those who are following this story . . .
<http://tinyurl.com/abyla8u>http://tinyurl.com/abyla8u
Bob . . .
Message 10
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Andy,
With CBs and Airplanes you get 1 chance to reset. This gives you that 1 chance.
If it pops again, never reset it until you are on the ground. Last time I tried
to change a fuse while flying my wife kept yelling something like, "we gonna
die" :)
The fuse-able link allows that link (the smaller wire) to break the circuit if
the main wire ever gets hot enough to burn back to the bus. I tested that 1 on
the ground. It works :) The link wire needs to be large enough to handle the
expected load + 20% or so.
My rationale for fuses is pretty simple. If you need it to land safely, don't use
a fuse. In my bird there is very little that I can claim to be absolutely necessary
for landing (without getting hurt). Flaps are 1 of them.
I'll never have to worry about getting published in IEEE, but I've discovered what
works practically over time. The two are often different.
Glenn
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andy
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 3:32 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Diagram Z-13
I am wired with the auto fuse blocks, i understand the fuseable link concept, i
think. I'm having trouble understanding why the crowbar OVM requires the circuit
breaker instead of using an auto fuse.
Thanks again for all your shared info,
Andy
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 14, 2013, at 1:26 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
wrote:
> --> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
> At 01:12 PM 2/14/2013, you wrote:
>>
>>
>> Reference Diagram Z-13 from the main power distribution bus the alt field wire
shows a fusable link followed by a circuit breaker then the switch. Is it an
option either fusable link or circuit breaker?
>
> Are your busses tapped with circuit breakers or fuses?
>
> z-13 illustrates the use of fuse blocks. The crowbar ovm systems
> require a panel mounted breaker. Hence, the BUS is EXTENDED from the
> fuse block to the breaker; the extension is protected with a very
> robust fuse or 'fusible link'.
>
> If you're building with breakers, then the fusible link is not
> necessary.
>
>> Could you also just use a fuse in the fuse holder, it just introduces
>> "gremlins" the fuse holder could be loose or corrode
>
> Look up Fusible Link on the website. This is a special kind of fuse
> used in limited and unique situations.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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In Diagram Z-11 the OVM Connects to the circuit breaker, in Diagram Z-13 the OVM
is connected to the switch. Could you (Diagram Z-13) connect the OVM yellow
wire to the A or S terminal of the generic Ford regulator and it will function
properly?
Thanks, Andy
Sent from my iPhone
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| Subject: | Re: Diagram Z-13 |
Thanks for the replies. It is referenced several places in the connection that
the crowbar over voltage needs a circuit breaker. Does the crowbar over voltage
not work with a fuse? Why?
Thanks again!
Andy
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 14, 2013, at 3:01 PM, <longg@pjm.com> wrote:
>
> Andy,
>
> With CBs and Airplanes you get 1 chance to reset. This gives you that 1 chance.
If it pops again, never reset it until you are on the ground. Last time I tried
to change a fuse while flying my wife kept yelling something like, "we gonna
die" :)
>
> The fuse-able link allows that link (the smaller wire) to break the circuit if
the main wire ever gets hot enough to burn back to the bus. I tested that 1
on the ground. It works :) The link wire needs to be large enough to handle the
expected load + 20% or so.
>
> My rationale for fuses is pretty simple. If you need it to land safely, don't
use a fuse. In my bird there is very little that I can claim to be absolutely
necessary for landing (without getting hurt). Flaps are 1 of them.
>
> I'll never have to worry about getting published in IEEE, but I've discovered
what works practically over time. The two are often different.
>
>
> Glenn
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andy
> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 3:32 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Diagram Z-13
>
>
> I am wired with the auto fuse blocks, i understand the fuseable link concept,
i think. I'm having trouble understanding why the crowbar OVM requires the circuit
breaker instead of using an auto fuse.
> Thanks again for all your shared info,
> Andy
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Feb 14, 2013, at 1:26 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
wrote:
>
>> --> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>>
>> At 01:12 PM 2/14/2013, you wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Reference Diagram Z-13 from the main power distribution bus the alt field wire
shows a fusable link followed by a circuit breaker then the switch. Is it
an option either fusable link or circuit breaker?
>>
>> Are your busses tapped with circuit breakers or fuses?
>>
>> z-13 illustrates the use of fuse blocks. The crowbar ovm systems
>> require a panel mounted breaker. Hence, the BUS is EXTENDED from the
>> fuse block to the breaker; the extension is protected with a very
>> robust fuse or 'fusible link'.
>>
>> If you're building with breakers, then the fusible link is not
>> necessary.
>>
>>> Could you also just use a fuse in the fuse holder, it just introduces
>>> "gremlins" the fuse holder could be loose or corrode
>>
>> Look up Fusible Link on the website. This is a special kind of fuse
>> used in limited and unique situations.
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Diagram Z-13 |
At 02:31 PM 2/14/2013, you wrote:
>
>I am wired with the auto fuse blocks, i understand the fuseable link
>concept, i think. I'm having trouble understanding why the crowbar
>OVM requires the circuit breaker instead of using an auto fuse.
Because it MAY nuisance trip and you want to
be able to reset it from the pilot's seat.
Bob . . .
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Diagram Z-13 |
Roger!
Thanks again,
Andy
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 14, 2013, at 6:00 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
wrote:
>
> At 02:31 PM 2/14/2013, you wrote:
>>
>> I am wired with the auto fuse blocks, i understand the fuseable link concept,
i think. I'm having trouble understanding why the crowbar OVM requires the circuit
breaker instead of using an auto fuse.
>
> Because it MAY nuisance trip and you want to
> be able to reset it from the pilot's seat.
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
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