---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 02/14/13: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:00 AM - Re: Re: IBBS backup battery vs backup alt? (Bob Verwey) 2. 03:19 AM - Re: Re: IBBS backup battery vs backup alt? (Jay Hyde) 3. 07:48 AM - Re: IBBS backup battery vs backup alt? (user9253) 4. 08:24 AM - Re: Re: Avionics Wire Lister? (Jay Hyde) 5. 08:30 AM - Re: Re: IBBS backup battery vs backup alt? (Jay Hyde) 6. 11:14 AM - Diagram Z-13 (Andy) 7. 11:26 AM - Re: Diagram Z-13 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 12:33 PM - Re: Diagram Z-13 (Andy) 9. 12:49 PM - Boeing 787 battery issues heats up (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 01:02 PM - Re: Diagram Z-13 () 11. 01:03 PM - Crowbar OVM (Andy) 12. 02:33 PM - Re: Diagram Z-13 (Andy) 13. 04:00 PM - Re: Diagram Z-13 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 06:24 PM - Re: Diagram Z-13 (Andy) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:00:49 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: IBBS backup battery vs backup alt? From: Bob Verwey So here is my question, probably answered before on this forum.... Day VFR with an internally regulated alternator, electronic ignition auto engine, no EFIS, fuel pump or other essential electrical services except COMM. With a dedicated batt buss for the ignition, what other precautions / additions should I consider? Best... Bob Verwey A35 Bonanza ZU-DLW Chevy Safari ZU-AJF On Wednesday, 13 February 2013, user9253 wrote: > > Many alternators will continue to operate after the battery has been > disconnected. Testing on the ground will determine if your alternators > behave this way. Chances are that the pilot will be unaware of a master > contactor failure, because the alternator and electrical loads will > continue to operate normally. The pilot might not realize the master > contactor has failed until the next attempt to start the engine. > Dual alternators are desirable for those who wish to continue flying for > an extended time period after the main alternator fails. For many pilots, > a second alternator is unnecessary weight, cost, and complexity. The > aircraft battery will supply electrical power until landing. > An avionics backup battery is not required because the aircraft battery > provides backup power through the E-Bus circuit. > In the event of a fire or an imminent crash, the pilot should have the > ability to shut off all electrical power as close to the source as > possible. A long wire from the battery to the aux alternator does not meet > this requirement. > Joe > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394198#394198 > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:19:02 AM PST US From: "Jay Hyde" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: IBBS backup battery vs backup alt? Hey there Bob, I think that for a battery dependant engine dual battery architechture with LV warning and engine battery disconnect is essential. The idea that you need just one component to fail to force a landing is not comfortable. It may be that you are very good at checking your battery condition every year, but then you forget to properly tighten the terminal post. or something similar. I use dual batteries and alternate paths. Jay From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Verwey Sent: 14 February 2013 11:00 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: IBBS backup battery vs backup alt? So here is my question, probably answered before on this forum.... Day VFR with an internally regulated alternator, electronic ignition auto engine, no EFIS, fuel pump or other essential electrical services except COMM. With a dedicated batt buss for the ignition, what other precautions / additions should I consider? Best... Bob Verwey A35 Bonanza ZU-DLW Chevy Safari ZU-AJF On Wednesday, 13 February 2013, user9253 wrote: Many alternators will continue to operate after the battery has been disconnected. Testing on the ground will determine if your alternators behave this way. Chances are that the pilot will be unaware of a master contactor failure, because the alternator and electrical loads will continue to operate normally. The pilot might not realize the master contactor has failed until the next attempt to start the engine. Dual alternators are desirable for those who wish to continue flying for an extended time period after the main alternator fails. For many pilots, a second alternator is unnecessary weight, cost, and complexity. The aircraft battery will supply electrical power until landing. An avionics backup battery is not required because the aircraft battery provides backup power through the E-Bus circuit. In the event of a fire or an imminent crash, the pilot should have the ability to shut off all electrical power as close to the source as possible. A long wire from the battery to the aux alternator does not meet this requirement. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394198#394198 ========== -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List ========== http://forums.matronics.com ========== le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:48:29 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: IBBS backup battery vs backup alt? From: "user9253" An electrically dependent engine is not necessarily a battery dependent engine. Viking Aircraft has determined that their engines will continue to run with the battery disconnected, powered by the alternator. If there are dual electronic ignitions, one can be connected to the battery bus and the other connected to the main bus. A small "brownout" battery can be connected to an EFIS to prevent rebooting from voltage sag during engine cranking. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394262#394262 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:24:39 AM PST US From: "Jay Hyde" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Avionics Wire Lister? I have attached a short pdf shot of my spreadsheet; the left most column is for the wire numbers; the next column is for any connector that I may have (I use barrel connectors and a variety of DB connectors that I then give codes numbers/ names to). The last column describes the circuit that the wire may be found in. You could add a 'from' and 'to' column, but I think that that is overkill- all you need is the circuit that the wire is associated with and then it's easy to find on your diagram. I always find that you allocate all the numbers in sequence and its all neat and organised, and then the client, or you, remembers something that needs power and your neat sequence is all messed up. And that makes finding the wire numbers very difficult, hence this list. Jay ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ HH Enterprises- - Supply and installation of top class water filters for your best drinking experience! - Aircraft assembly, repair, wiring and avionics - Flight instruction - General and Electrical Engineering services ---------------(NHD Elec Eng, BTech Elec Eng, GDE ELec Eng) - Great dinner parties and conversation - General adventuring, climbing, kayaking and living Blog: www.rawhyde.wordpress.com Cel: 083-300 8675 Email: jay@horriblehyde.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dalemed Sent: 12 February 2013 06:50 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Avionics Wire Lister? jay(at)horriblehyde.com wrote: > I simply put it all down on a spreadsheet. > > Jay > > > -- Can you show us what the spreadsheet looks like? An image would be worth a thousand words. Thanks, Dale -------- Dale Flying Cessna 170B Building Zenith CH650 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394149#394149 List 7-Day ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:30:45 AM PST US From: "Jay Hyde" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: IBBS backup battery vs backup alt? Fair enough; the engine may have some other built in safeguard, or an alternator especially designed for batteryless operation, and you may then take that into account. However, and here I am not completely sure, but I think that most alternators will only self power above a certain speed; drop below that speed and the alternator cannot 'self-boot', unless it is a permanent magnet type. Generally, all 4 stroke gasoline auto engines, will not be able to run when the battery is disconnected. You may have a battery bus and a main bus, but what if the battery terminal post corrodes, or breaks, or perhaps the connecting bolt and nut on the terminal works loose? There go both your battery bus and your main bus... Jay ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ HH Enterprises Supply and installation of top class water filters for your best drinking experience! Aircraft assembly, repair, wiring and avionics Flight instruction General and Electrical Engineering services (NHD Elec Eng, BTech Elec Eng, GDE ELec Eng) Great dinner parties and conversation General adventuring, climbing, kayaking and living Blog: www.rawhyde.wordpress.com Cel: 083300 8675 Email: jay@horriblehyde.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of user9253 Sent: 14 February 2013 05:45 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: IBBS backup battery vs backup alt? An electrically dependent engine is not necessarily a battery dependent engine. Viking Aircraft has determined that their engines will continue to run with the battery disconnected, powered by the alternator. If there are dual electronic ignitions, one can be connected to the battery bus and the other connected to the main bus. A small "brownout" battery can be connected to an EFIS to prevent rebooting from voltage sag during engine cranking. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394262#394262 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:14:33 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Diagram Z-13 From: Andy Reference Diagram Z-13 from the main power distribution bus the alt field wire shows a fusable link followed by a circuit breaker then the switch. Is it an option either fusable link or circuit breaker? Could you also just use a fuse in the fuse holder, it just introduces "gremlins" the fuse holder could be loose or corrode ? Thanks, Andy Sent from my iPhone ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:26:01 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Diagram Z-13 At 01:12 PM 2/14/2013, you wrote: > > >Reference Diagram Z-13 from the main power distribution bus the alt >field wire shows a fusable link followed by a circuit breaker then >the switch. Is it an option either fusable link or circuit breaker? Are your busses tapped with circuit breakers or fuses? z-13 illustrates the use of fuse blocks. The crowbar ovm systems require a panel mounted breaker. Hence, the BUS is EXTENDED from the fuse block to the breaker; the extension is protected with a very robust fuse or 'fusible link'. If you're building with breakers, then the fusible link is not necessary. >Could you also just use a fuse in the fuse holder, it just >introduces "gremlins" the fuse holder could be loose or corrode Look up Fusible Link on the website. This is a special kind of fuse used in limited and unique situations. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:33:51 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Diagram Z-13 From: Andy I am wired with the auto fuse blocks, i understand the fuseable link concept, i think. I'm having trouble understanding why the crowbar OVM requires the circuit breaker instead of using an auto fuse. Thanks again for all your shared info, Andy Sent from my iPhone On Feb 14, 2013, at 1:26 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > At 01:12 PM 2/14/2013, you wrote: >> >> >> Reference Diagram Z-13 from the main power distribution bus the alt field wire shows a fusable link followed by a circuit breaker then the switch. Is it an option either fusable link or circuit breaker? > > Are your busses tapped with circuit breakers or fuses? > > z-13 illustrates the use of fuse blocks. The crowbar > ovm systems require a panel mounted breaker. Hence, the > BUS is EXTENDED from the fuse block to the breaker; > the extension is protected with a very robust fuse > or 'fusible link'. > > If you're building with breakers, then the fusible > link is not necessary. > >> Could you also just use a fuse in the fuse holder, it just introduces "gremlins" the fuse holder could be loose or corrode > > Look up Fusible Link on the website. This > is a special kind of fuse used in limited > and unique situations. > > > Bob . . . > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:49:43 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Boeing 787 battery issues heats up For those who are following this story . . . http://tinyurl.com/abyla8u Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:02:47 PM PST US From: Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Diagram Z-13 Andy, With CBs and Airplanes you get 1 chance to reset. This gives you that 1 chance. If it pops again, never reset it until you are on the ground. Last time I tried to change a fuse while flying my wife kept yelling something like, "we gonna die" :) The fuse-able link allows that link (the smaller wire) to break the circuit if the main wire ever gets hot enough to burn back to the bus. I tested that 1 on the ground. It works :) The link wire needs to be large enough to handle the expected load + 20% or so. My rationale for fuses is pretty simple. If you need it to land safely, don't use a fuse. In my bird there is very little that I can claim to be absolutely necessary for landing (without getting hurt). Flaps are 1 of them. I'll never have to worry about getting published in IEEE, but I've discovered what works practically over time. The two are often different. Glenn -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andy Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 3:32 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Diagram Z-13 I am wired with the auto fuse blocks, i understand the fuseable link concept, i think. I'm having trouble understanding why the crowbar OVM requires the circuit breaker instead of using an auto fuse. Thanks again for all your shared info, Andy Sent from my iPhone On Feb 14, 2013, at 1:26 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > --> > > At 01:12 PM 2/14/2013, you wrote: >> >> >> Reference Diagram Z-13 from the main power distribution bus the alt field wire shows a fusable link followed by a circuit breaker then the switch. Is it an option either fusable link or circuit breaker? > > Are your busses tapped with circuit breakers or fuses? > > z-13 illustrates the use of fuse blocks. The crowbar ovm systems > require a panel mounted breaker. Hence, the BUS is EXTENDED from the > fuse block to the breaker; the extension is protected with a very > robust fuse or 'fusible link'. > > If you're building with breakers, then the fusible link is not > necessary. > >> Could you also just use a fuse in the fuse holder, it just introduces >> "gremlins" the fuse holder could be loose or corrode > > Look up Fusible Link on the website. This is a special kind of fuse > used in limited and unique situations. > > > Bob . . . > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:03:24 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Crowbar OVM From: Andy In Diagram Z-11 the OVM Connects to the circuit breaker, in Diagram Z-13 the OVM is connected to the switch. Could you (Diagram Z-13) connect the OVM yellow wire to the A or S terminal of the generic Ford regulator and it will function properly? Thanks, Andy Sent from my iPhone ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:33:40 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Diagram Z-13 From: Andy Thanks for the replies. It is referenced several places in the connection that the crowbar over voltage needs a circuit breaker. Does the crowbar over voltage not work with a fuse? Why? Thanks again! Andy Sent from my iPhone On Feb 14, 2013, at 3:01 PM, wrote: > > Andy, > > With CBs and Airplanes you get 1 chance to reset. This gives you that 1 chance. If it pops again, never reset it until you are on the ground. Last time I tried to change a fuse while flying my wife kept yelling something like, "we gonna die" :) > > The fuse-able link allows that link (the smaller wire) to break the circuit if the main wire ever gets hot enough to burn back to the bus. I tested that 1 on the ground. It works :) The link wire needs to be large enough to handle the expected load + 20% or so. > > My rationale for fuses is pretty simple. If you need it to land safely, don't use a fuse. In my bird there is very little that I can claim to be absolutely necessary for landing (without getting hurt). Flaps are 1 of them. > > I'll never have to worry about getting published in IEEE, but I've discovered what works practically over time. The two are often different. > > > Glenn > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andy > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 3:32 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Diagram Z-13 > > > I am wired with the auto fuse blocks, i understand the fuseable link concept, i think. I'm having trouble understanding why the crowbar OVM requires the circuit breaker instead of using an auto fuse. > Thanks again for all your shared info, > Andy > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Feb 14, 2013, at 1:26 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > >> --> >> >> At 01:12 PM 2/14/2013, you wrote: >>> >>> >>> Reference Diagram Z-13 from the main power distribution bus the alt field wire shows a fusable link followed by a circuit breaker then the switch. Is it an option either fusable link or circuit breaker? >> >> Are your busses tapped with circuit breakers or fuses? >> >> z-13 illustrates the use of fuse blocks. The crowbar ovm systems >> require a panel mounted breaker. Hence, the BUS is EXTENDED from the >> fuse block to the breaker; the extension is protected with a very >> robust fuse or 'fusible link'. >> >> If you're building with breakers, then the fusible link is not >> necessary. >> >>> Could you also just use a fuse in the fuse holder, it just introduces >>> "gremlins" the fuse holder could be loose or corrode >> >> Look up Fusible Link on the website. This is a special kind of fuse >> used in limited and unique situations. >> >> >> Bob . . . > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:00:43 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Diagram Z-13 At 02:31 PM 2/14/2013, you wrote: > >I am wired with the auto fuse blocks, i understand the fuseable link >concept, i think. I'm having trouble understanding why the crowbar >OVM requires the circuit breaker instead of using an auto fuse. Because it MAY nuisance trip and you want to be able to reset it from the pilot's seat. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:24:43 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Diagram Z-13 From: Andy Roger! Thanks again, Andy Sent from my iPhone On Feb 14, 2013, at 6:00 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > At 02:31 PM 2/14/2013, you wrote: >> >> I am wired with the auto fuse blocks, i understand the fuseable link concept, i think. I'm having trouble understanding why the crowbar OVM requires the circuit breaker instead of using an auto fuse. > > Because it MAY nuisance trip and you want to > be able to reset it from the pilot's seat. > > > > Bob . . . > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.