---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 02/18/13: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:16 AM - Re: LEDs (Kimkest) 2. 08:52 AM - Charles Ray (Charles Ray) 3. 02:23 PM - Re: Li-Ion hazards (Michael Pereira) 4. 05:08 PM - Re: Li-Ion hazards (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 05:29 PM - Re: Li-Ion hazards (John Grosse) 6. 06:51 PM - Re: Li-Ion hazards (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:16:24 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: LEDs From: "Kimkest" wynaire(at)citlink.net wrote: > Thanks Eric M J, > You (and others) have provided here a wealth of info that obviously will go > a long way to shortening the [my] trial and error period. Kudos to your > reply, your web page design and the info therein. Bach at you after I > "smoke" a few more LED's. ;) > Mike > Moab, UT > ***************** > > > --- Thanks for sharing detailed information about led lights. I really liked it Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394476#394476 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:52:21 AM PST US From: Charles Ray Subject: AeroElectric-List: Charles Ray http://corvettemarine.com/blog/wp-content/plugins/freelife.php?ymgwaorau ************************************ ********************** Be not afraid of life. Believe that life is worth living, and your belief will help you create the fact. - William James Charles Ray ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:23:28 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Li-Ion hazards From: Michael Pereira The safe full charge voltage of a lithium ion battery is dependent on temperature. Lower ambient temperature equal lower safe charge voltage. If unpressurized equals unheated, a fully charged battery on the ground would be an overcharged battery at 30,000 feet. Meaning shorter life span (and maybe the last proverbial straw). Don't know if lifepo4 shares this quirk. Actually, nevermind, i'm sure boeing keeps the full charge voltage safely below the worst case possibility. Then again these batteries don't really like to be cold. *shrugs* complicated compared to lead acid or nicad. c'ya, Michael On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 9:50 AM, GLEN MATEJCEK wrote: > A design concept I've seen more than once is to have NiCads mounted in > an unpressurized area, down low, with nothing under them but skin... > > > On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 7:57 AM, AeroElectric-List Digest Server < > aeroelectric-list@matronics.com> wrote: > >> * >> >> ======================== >> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive >> ======================== >> >> Today's complete AeroElectric-List Digest can also be found in either of >> the >> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted >> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes >> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version >> of the AeroElectric-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text >> editor >> such as Notepad or with a web browser. >> >> HTML Version: >> >> >> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 13-02-09&Archive=AeroElectric >> >> Text Version: >> >> >> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 13-02-09&Archive=AeroElectric >> >> >> =============================================== >> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive >> =============================================== >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> AeroElectric-List Digest Archive >> --- >> Total Messages Posted Sat 02/09/13: 10 >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> Today's Message Index: >> ---------------------- >> >> 1. 09:36 AM - Li-Ion hazards (Jan de Jong) >> 2. 10:59 AM - Re: Li-Ion hazards (rayj) >> 3. 11:08 AM - Re: OT: SMT solder bridge (rayj) >> 4. 11:08 AM - Re: Li-Ion hazards (Roger & Jean Curtis) >> 5. 11:17 AM - Soldering knowledge source (rayj) >> 6. 11:21 AM - Re: Li-Ion hazards (rayj) >> 7. 11:44 AM - Re: Li-Ion hazards (Tim Olson) >> 8. 11:46 AM - SD-20 Alternator / SB1B-14 regulator failure modes - >> update (Ralph E. Capen) >> 9. 12:50 PM - Re: Li-Ion hazards (Richard Girard) >> 10. 01:57 PM - Re: Li-Ion hazards (Jan de Jong) >> >> >> >> ________________________________ Message 1 >> _____________________________________ >> >> >> Time: 09:36:47 AM PST US >> From: Jan de Jong >> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Li-Ion hazards >> >> >> >> For those who are really interested a comprehensive treatment of the >> dangers of Li-Ion: >> >> http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/Research/RFLithiumIonBatteriesHazard.pdf >> >> LiFePO4 is a lot less volatile and violent than most of the Li-Ion group. >> But it shares unfortunate properties: >> - thermal runaway can never be excluded: undetectable internal damage >> may exist and trigger at the end of a charging cycle >> - the electrolyte is flammable hydrocarbons >> >> I looks like "containment" will be part of any aviation design with >> Li-Ion batteries. >> >> Jan de Jong >> >> >> ________________________________ Message 2 >> _____________________________________ >> >> >> Time: 10:59:40 AM PST US >> From: rayj >> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Li-Ion hazards >> >> Thanks for posting this. Thereis no substitute forgood science and the >> knowledge gained from it. >> >> do not archive >> >> Raymond Julian >> Kettle River, MN. >> >> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, >> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine >> >> On 02/09/2013 11:34 AM, Jan de Jong wrote: >> > >> > >> > For those who are really interested a comprehensive treatment of the >> > dangers of Li-Ion: >> > >> http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/Research/RFLithiumIonBatteriesHazard.pdf >> > >> > >> > LiFePO4 is a lot less volatile and violent than most of the Li-Ion >> group. >> > But it shares unfortunate properties: >> > - thermal runaway can never be excluded: undetectable internal damage >> > may exist and trigger at the end of a charging cycle >> > - the electrolyte is flammable hydrocarbons >> > >> > I looks like "containment" will be part of any aviation design with >> > Li-Ion batteries. >> > >> > Jan de Jong >> > >> > >> >> >> ________________________________ Message 3 >> _____________________________________ >> >> >> Time: 11:08:09 AM PST US >> From: rayj >> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: OT: SMT solder bridge >> >> Greetings, >> >> Well...It's confession time. After 2 hours of tentative poking, heating, >> fluxing, wiping and inspecting it turned out that the "solder bridge" >> was actually a pad that 2 leads on the chip were supposed to share. >> That little detail aside, I learned a great deal about SMT soldering and >> rework. >> >> Thanks to everyone who offered guidance. >> >> >> do not archive >> >> Raymond Julian >> Kettle River, MN. >> >> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, >> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine >> >> On 02/04/2013 03:44 PM, rayj wrote: >> > Greetings, >> > >> > I was inspecting anew electronic device that wasn't working and found >> > a solder bridge between 2 of the pins on an SMT chip. >> > >> > I'm looking for an easy way to remove it. My plan is to use a hot >> > needle to touch it and maybe I can sweep or blow it away. I'm open to >> > suggestions, keeping in mind I have no equipment for working on SMT >> > components. >> > >> > do not archive >> > >> > Thanks in advance for any suggestions. >> > -- >> >> > Raymond Julian >> > Kettle River, MN. >> > >> > "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, >> > and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine >> > * >> > >> > >> > * >> >> >> ________________________________ Message 4 >> _____________________________________ >> >> >> Time: 11:08:49 AM PST US >> From: "Roger & Jean Curtis" >> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Li-Ion hazards >> >> >> >> >> I looks like "containment" will be part of any aviation design with >> Li-Ion batteries. >> >> Jan de Jong >> >> >> Perhaps a mechanism to jettison the battery when it reaches >> ignition temperature would work. A better solution IMHO is >> to not even consider using the Li-Ion battery, at this stage >> of development. The cons far exceed the pros. >> >> Roger >> >> >> _____ >> >> .. >> >> >> Do you have a slow PC? < >> http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen> >> Try a free scan! >> >> >> ________________________________ Message 5 >> _____________________________________ >> >> >> Time: 11:17:20 AM PST US >> From: rayj >> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Soldering knowledge source >> >> As part of my SMT rework adventure, I was sent a site that has a great >> deal of infoon soldering. >> >> Thanks to Robert Korff for sending it to me, it belongs in the archive. >> >> _http://www.solder.net/technical-info/soldering-tip-videos_ >> >> -- >> >> Raymond Julian >> Kettle River, MN. >> >> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, >> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine >> >> >> ________________________________ Message 6 >> _____________________________________ >> >> >> Time: 11:21:02 AM PST US >> From: rayj >> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Li-Ion hazards >> >> >> I wouldn't be surprised if the weight/cost of catastrophe management may >> make the Li based battery systems less attractive from an energy density >> standpoint. >> >> do not archive >> >> Raymond Julian >> Kettle River, MN. >> >> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, >> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine >> >> On 02/09/2013 01:08 PM, Roger & Jean Curtis wrote: >> > >> > >> > I looks like "containment" will be part of any aviation design with >> > Li-Ion batteries. >> > >> > Jan de Jong >> > >> > >> > Perhaps a mechanism to jettison the battery when it reaches >> > ignition temperature would work. A better solution IMHO is >> > to not even consider using the Li-Ion battery, at this stage >> > of development. The cons far exceed the pros. >> > >> > Roger >> > >> > >> > _____ >> > >> > . >> > >> > Do you have a slow PC? < >> http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen> >> > Try a free scan! >> > >> > >> >> >> ________________________________ Message 7 >> _____________________________________ >> >> >> Time: 11:44:27 AM PST US >> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Li-Ion hazards >> From: Tim Olson >> >> >> >> Cool, flaming meteorites falling everywhere for people on the ground to >> see! >> Tim >> >> >> On Feb 9, 2013, at 1:08 PM, "Roger & Jean Curtis" < >> mrspudandcompany@verizon.net> >> wrote: >> >> > >> > >> > I looks like "containment" will be part of any aviation design with >> > Li-Ion batteries. >> > >> > Jan de Jong >> > >> > >> > Perhaps a mechanism to jettison the battery when it reaches >> > ignition temperature would work. A better solution IMHO is >> > to not even consider using the Li-Ion battery, at this stage >> > of development. The cons far exceed the pros. >> > >> > Roger >> > >> > >> > _____ >> > >> > . >> > >> > Do you have a slow PC? < >> http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen> >> > Try a free scan! >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> ________________________________ Message 8 >> _____________________________________ >> >> >> Time: 11:46:33 AM PST US >> From: "Ralph E. Capen" >> Subject: AeroElectric-List: SD-20 Alternator / SB1B-14 regulator failure >> modes >> - update >> >> >> In my case, it was the drive gear that goes in to the accessory case. >> >> There's a rubber thingy inside that was in a bunch of pieces. The safety >> catch >> did it's job so the parts didn't float in to the engine. It all came out >> together >> - but it was very obvious that the gear wasn't driving. >> >> Anyone know if that is replaceable? Looks like it could be - just maybe >> not by >> me.....I'll ask the folks @ B & C. >> >> Ralph Capen >> >> >> ________________________________ Message 9 >> _____________________________________ >> >> >> Time: 12:50:02 PM PST US >> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Li-Ion hazards >> From: Richard Girard >> >> >> Jan, Perhaps it should be treated as Scotty treated the warp core of the >> Enterprise and eject them when there's trouble. :-} >> >> Rick Girard >> do not archive >> >> On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Jan de Jong >> wrote: >> >> > jan_de_jong@casema.nl> >> > >> > For those who are really interested a comprehensive treatment of the >> > dangers of Li-Ion: >> > http://www.nfpa.org/assets/**files/PDF/Research/** >> > RFLithiumIonBatteriesHazard.**pdf< >> http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/Research/RFLithiumIonBatteriesHazard.pdf >> > >> >> > >> > LiFePO4 is a lot less volatile and violent than most of the Li-Ion >> group. >> > But it shares unfortunate properties: >> > - thermal runaway can never be excluded: undetectable internal damage >> may >> > exist and trigger at the end of a charging cycle >> > - the electrolyte is flammable hydrocarbons >> > >> > I looks like "containment" will be part of any aviation design with >> Li-Ion >> > batteries. >> > >> > Jan de Jong >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> Zulu Delta >> Mk IIIC >> Thanks, Homer GBYM >> >> It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be >> unhappy. >> - Groucho Marx >> >> ________________________________ Message 10 >> ____________________________________ >> >> >> Time: 01:57:36 PM PST US >> From: Jan de Jong >> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Li-Ion hazards >> >> >> Maybe airplanes can be equipped with a black hole for garbage disposal >> (black hole traveling along in a parallel universe). >> >> Jan de Jong >> do not archive >> >> On 2/9/2013 9:48 PM, Richard Girard wrote: >> > Jan, Perhaps it should be treated as Scotty treated the warp core of >> > the Enterprise and eject them when there's trouble. :-} >> > >> > Rick Girard >> > do not archive >> > >> > On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Jan de Jong > > > wrote: >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > For those who are really interested a comprehensive treatment of >> > the dangers of Li-Ion: >> > >> http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/Research/RFLithiumIonBatteriesHazard.pdf >> > >> > LiFePO4 is a lot less volatile and violent than most of the Li-Ion >> > group. >> > But it shares unfortunate properties: >> > - thermal runaway can never be excluded: undetectable internal >> > damage may exist and trigger at the end of a charging cycle >> > - the electrolyte is flammable hydrocarbons >> > >> > I looks like "containment" will be part of any aviation design >> > with Li-Ion batteries. >> > >> > Jan de Jong >> > >> > >> > ================================== >> > -List" >> > target="_blank"> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> > ================================== >> > http://forums.matronics.com >> >> > ================================== >> > le, List Admin. >> > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> > ================================== >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Zulu Delta >> > Mk IIIC >> > Thanks, Homer GBYM >> > >> > It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be >> > unhappy. >> > - Groucho Marx >> > >> > * >> > >> > >> > * >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ========== >> -List" target="_blank"> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> ========== >> http://forums.matronics.com >> >> ========== >> le, List Admin. >> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> >> >> > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:08:21 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Li-Ion hazards Airbus is bailing out of lithium batteries for their A350 program. http://tinyurl.com/a7hd4zm A mini-sub being designed for the Navy suffered catastrophic damage due to lithium battery fire that fortunately broke out on land. It took 5+ hours to put the fire out. http://tinyurl.com/bjn6bun Boeing still seems to be optimistic. I've not heard anything new on Cessna . . . I think they're still stroking the Lithium Ion installation. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:29:58 PM PST US From: John Grosse Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Li-Ion hazards Actually, the battery in the USN mini-sub was silver oxide, not lithium. John Grosse > Robert L. Nuckolls, III > February 18, 2013 7:06 PM > > > Airbus is bailing out of lithium batteries for their > A350 program. > > http://tinyurl.com/a7hd4zm > > A mini-sub being designed for the Navy suffered > catastrophic damage due to lithium battery fire > that fortunately broke out on land. It took 5+ > hours to put the fire out. > > http://tinyurl.com/bjn6bun > > Boeing still seems to be optimistic. I've > not heard anything new on Cessna . . . I think > they're still stroking the Lithium Ion > installation. > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:51:33 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Li-Ion hazards At 07:29 PM 2/18/2013, you wrote: > >Actually, the battery in the USN mini-sub was silver oxide, not lithium. The program started out with silver but couldn't meet the endurance requirements. This article does shed some new light on the firefighting efforts. http://tinyurl.com/bgz5wqf Seems that the battery compartment hatch was never opened and they hosed down the outside of the vehicle to keep it cool. The fire was allowed to burn itself out within. This probably accounts for the amount of damage done. The article suggests that the Navy is still optimistic about Li-Ion technology. 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