AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Mon 02/25/13


Total Messages Posted: 14



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 05:34 AM - Fw: Re: Re: Eye Beam Mini LED / RF interference (Buckley William)
     2. 06:14 AM - Re: Second big snow in a week! (Bill Bradburry)
     3. 06:24 AM - Here is a surprise! (Bill Bradburry)
     4. 07:12 AM - Re: Eye Beam Mini LED / RF interference (user9253)
     5. 08:37 AM - Re: Here is a surprise! (Werner Schneider)
     6. 11:52 AM - Audio Amplifier heads-up (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     7. 12:50 PM - Audio Amplifier heads-up (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     8. 01:15 PM - 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     9. 01:33 PM - Ground plane diameter (Bill Hibbing)
    10. 01:51 PM - Re: Audio Amplifier heads-up (Daniel Hooper)
    11. 02:03 PM - Re: Audio Amplifier heads-up (Charlie England)
    12. 06:00 PM - Re: Ground plane diameter (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    13. 06:01 PM - Re: Audio Amplifier heads-up (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    14. 08:29 PM - Re: Ground plane diameter (William Hibbing)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 05:34:56 AM PST US
    From: Buckley William <hoverandwire@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Eye Beam Mini LED / RF interference
    Sam, Here's what I came up with for kneeboard lights to do what you're talking a bout. William --- On Sun, 2/24/13, Sam Marlow <sam.marlow@roadrunner.com> wrote: > From: Sam Marlow <sam.marlow@roadrunner.com> > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Eye Beam Mini LED / RF interference > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Date: Sunday, February 24, 2013, 3:53 PM > --> AeroElectric-List message > posted by: Sam Marlow <sam.marlow@roadrunner.com> > > Ok Bob, I have an LED cabin litght that needs a > on/off/white/red/dimmer switch, any ideas? > > Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > > > At 10:07 AM 2/24/2013, you wrote: > "jonlaury" <jonlaury@impulse.net> > >> > >> [/quote] > >> > >> Jon, Is this the product you have installed?- > I'm curious because I was planning on using these > also.- Thanks. > >> > >> http://www.aveoengineering.com/index.php/product-info-eyebeam-mini[/qu ote] > > >> > >> Bill, > >> Yes, the same. But I don't know what they mean when > they say "no external power source required". That would be > some trick! > > > >- Do the offer a 'dumb' version? It's not hard > >- to build an airplane-friendly knob-operated > >- on/off/dimmer. > > > > > >---Bob . . . > > > > > > > > > > > > =========== > AeroElectric-List Email Forum - =========== > ---- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - =========== > List Contribution Web Site - > - - - - - - - -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. =========== > > > >


    Message 2


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    Time: 06:14:54 AM PST US
    From: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Second big snow in a week!
    Darn! And pheasant season is over! -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 12:14 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Second big snow in a week! <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> Just got the drive cleared enough to get the truck out after a 12" snow on Friday, now they're calling for 16-20" again tomorrow. The only living thing really happy about all this is the wheat . . . They're not expecting freezing rain so maybe that new generator will still be in the box next week too. Dr. Dee got home last week before the snow and has just e-mailed all her students not to expect her tomorrow . . . Bob . . .


    Message 3


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    Time: 06:24:18 AM PST US
    From: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Here is a surprise!
    http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost <http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=7929b91b-1927-441c-b 8fd-cca7cb6f595a> &id=7929b91b-1927-441c-b8fd-cca7cb6f595a


    Message 4


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    Time: 07:12:26 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Eye Beam Mini LED / RF interference
    From: "user9253" <fransew@gmail.com>
    Van's Aircraft sells an eyeball light and Light Bracket part number F-12124 . http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi?ident=1361800579-166-15&browse=lighting&product=eyeball Even though the product description says "incandescent", I am pretty sure that it is LED as used in the RV-12. See this posting: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=397494&postcount=26 Call Van's builder's support to verify before ordering. The eyeball light in the RV-12 is powered by +12V and negative PWM from the Dynon dimmer output. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394987#394987


    Message 5


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    Time: 08:37:56 AM PST US
    From: Werner Schneider <glastar@gmx.net>
    Subject: Re: Here is a surprise!
    As usual such infos do need a grain of salt. The pope was driving a VW for over 75000 km and that car did on ebay got over 200000$ on a bid after he became pope. So the part not having a driving licence is very doubtful. I can not comment about his flying skills however. Werner On 25.02.2013 15:23, Bill Bradburry wrote: > http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=7929b91b-1927-441c-b8fd-cca7cb6f595a > > * > > > * >


    Message 6


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    Time: 11:52:19 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Audio Amplifier heads-up
    I've been working with some interesting audio amplifier modules with very attractive pricing and performance numbers for the bux. They're generally described as 5v powered and will often cite the ability to run off the USB port of a computer. http://tinyurl.com/ag3dey2 http://tinyurl.com/bdkt495 http://tinyurl.com/a7gdp3h These are 'class D' audio amplifiers (switch mode power supplies that audio rate modulation response). I've found that they generally perform as advertised. I've found that they're sensitive to the output impedance of the power supply with respect to internally generated white nose. Further, they're not two whippy when it comes to rejection of noise on the 5v line. Noises on a USB supply port can vary widely from one computer to the next with lap-tops being the least likely to offer adequately conditioned power for these devices. Further, loud passages in program material will drive the amplifiers into unstable operation that cause one to grate their teeth. I've found that a LARGE capacitor (like 10,000 uF) really tames them down . . . alternatively, an array of ni-mh cells floated across the power line work just as well . . . and makes the amplifier portable. Just a heads up. Class D is one 'wave of the future' for not-quite hi-fi audio applications. The prices and performance are attractive . . . but there are integration issues the user should be aware of. If you are already, or plan to fiddle with these critters, I'd be pleased to compare notes either here on the List or privately. Bob . . .


    Message 7


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    Time: 12:50:16 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Audio Amplifier heads-up
    I've been working with some interesting audio amplifier modules with attractive pricing and performance numbers for the bux. Emacs! They're generally described as 5v powered and will often cite the ability to run off the USB port of a computer. http://tinyurl.com/ag3dey2 http://tinyurl.com/bdkt495 http://tinyurl.com/a7gdp3h These are 'class D' audio amplifiers (switch mode power supplies modulated at audio rates). I've found that they generally perform as advertised. Very efficient. I'm presently listening to some ambient music at pleasant levels where the two speakers draw an average of 20 milliamps total at 4v (80 mW power input to the system). I've found that they're sensitive to the output impedance of the power supply with respect to internally generated white nose. Further, they're not too whippy when it comes to rejection of noise on the 5v line. Noises on a USB supply port can vary widely from one computer to the next with lap-tops being the least likely to offer adequately conditioned power for these devices. Further, loud passages in program material will drive the amplifiers into unstable operation that gives one pause for the gnashing of teeth. I've found that a LARGE capacitor (like 10,000 uF) really tames them down . . . alternatively, an array of ni-mh cells floated across the power line work just as well . . . and makes the amplifier portable. Just a heads-up. Class D is one 'wave of the future' for not-quite hi-fi audio applications. The prices and performance are attractive . . . but there are integration issues the user should be aware of. If plan to or already are fiddling with these critters, I'd be pleased to compare notes either here on the List or privately. Bob . . .


    Message 8


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    Time: 01:15:57 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update)
    The first-pass filter I crafted last week only offers about 12 dB of attenuation of noises in the VHF Comm spectrum. I've got some tubing ordered that will let me 'box up' the filter components and bring power connection out to a connector. Working on plan-b. ========= PLAN B ========== Wasn't able to put my hands on the tubing I wanted but I ordered an alternative today which is coming out of Oklahoma. Hope to get a more effective filter crafted shortly. Bob . . .


    Message 9


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    Time: 01:33:13 PM PST US
    From: "Bill Hibbing" <n744bh@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Ground plane diameter
    I'm upgrading avionics in my Glasair and one of the units I'm adding is a G armin GDL-88 for ADS-B out. The antenna I'm using is a Comant CI-105 and s eeing it's a "plastic" airplane I've been wondering if a 6" diameter copper disc is large enough for the ground plane or should I go a bit larger? TI A Bill Glasair SIIS-FT ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com


    Message 10


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    Time: 01:51:56 PM PST US
    From: Daniel Hooper <enginerdy@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Audio Amplifier heads-up
    Have you taken a look at the output RFI? Or is it reasonably well filtered i n your test PCB? With the highly susceptible nature of some flying widgets, I 'm curious what your take is. Daniel On Feb 25, 2013, at 2:46 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroele ctric.com> wrote: > I've been working with some interesting > audio amplifier modules with attractive > pricing and performance numbers for the bux. > > <fd7795a.jpg> > > They're generally described as 5v powered and > will often cite the ability to run off the USB > port of a computer. > > http://tinyurl.com/ag3dey2 > > http://tinyurl.com/bdkt495 > > http://tinyurl.com/a7gdp3h > > These are 'class D' audio amplifiers (switch mode > power supplies modulated at audio rates). > I've found that they generally perform as > advertised. Very efficient. I'm presently > listening to some ambient music at pleasant > levels where the two speakers draw an average > of 20 milliamps total at 4v (80 mW power input > to the system). > > I've found that they're sensitive to the output > impedance of the power supply with respect to > internally generated white nose. Further, they're > not too whippy when it comes to rejection of noise > on the 5v line. Noises on a USB supply port > can vary widely from one computer to the next with > lap-tops being the least likely to offer adequately > conditioned power for these devices. > > Further, loud passages in program material will drive > the amplifiers into unstable operation that gives one > pause for the gnashing of teeth. I've found that a LARGE > capacitor (like 10,000 uF) really tames them down > . . . alternatively, an array of ni-mh cells floated > across the power line work just as well . . . and > makes the amplifier portable. > > Just a heads-up. Class D is one 'wave of the future' > for not-quite hi-fi audio applications. The prices > and performance are attractive . . . but there > are integration issues the user should be aware of. > > If plan to or already are fiddling with > these critters, I'd be pleased to compare notes > either here on the List or privately. > > Bob . . .


    Message 11


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    Time: 02:03:50 PM PST US
    From: Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Audio Amplifier heads-up


    Message 12


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    Time: 06:00:52 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Ground plane diameter
    At 03:30 PM 2/25/2013, you wrote: >I'm upgrading avionics in my Glasair and one of the units I'm adding >is a Garmin GDL-88 for ADS-B out. The antenna I'm using is a Comant >CI-105 and seeing it's a "plastic" airplane I've been wondering if a >6" diameter copper disc is large enough for the ground plane or >should I go a bit larger? TIA To understand the workings of ground planes under vertical 1/4-wave radiators (like comm, transponder and DME) antennas, you need to take a little 'head trip'. The older brother to a 1/4-wave antenna fed at the base is a 1/2-wave antenna fed at the center (aka VOR/LOC/GS atennas). The 1/2 wave antenna doesn't need a 'ground' because is has useful places to send 1/2 of the total energy into each of two identical, complimentary radiators. Now, take a dipole and turn it up vertically as if you wanted to use it for comm. Hmmmm . . . hard to attach the coax to it while insulating the hot end of the lower element. Okay, bend the lower element 90 degrees. Now the feed point at the antenna center comes down to skin level on the airplane . . . but the 'bent' half of the antenna is seriously compromised for efficiency as it no longer works in concert with its unmodified counterpart. Hmmmm . . . how to make the lion's share of the energy flow into the freely extended portion of the antenna while reducing a wasteful venture onto the compromised portion of the antenna? How about adding a second compromised element? Assume the feed point impedance of each element is R. Then a dipole in extended splendor has a feed point impedance of 2R. You've still got R + R with the compromised dipole but paralleling two 'crippled' elements at the base gives you 1/2R + R. We see that energy fed to this network divides with 1/3 going to the compromised side and 2/3 to the free element. Let's consider adding 2 more 'compromised' elements. Now we have 1/4R + R. Great! 4/5ths of the energy goes to the working part while only 1/5th is left free to roam and be a general nuisance to your radiation pattern. Now, if you want to squirt your signal off at an angle that is closer to the horizon, you can droop those elements not unlike the antennas seen around many airports. http://www.krecoantennas.com/images/gp-155.jpg Take this exercise to an extreme . . . say 100 'compromised' elements. Now you get 1/100R + R and only 1% of the energy is left free to be problematic. Further, 100 compromised elements look very close to a solid disk of material having a RADIUS equal to the HEIGHT of the free element. You sometimes see 100 drooping elements that look very much like a cone of solid metal. So, getting back to your question, the IDEAL small ground plane has a radius equal to the 1/4-wave distance for the frequency of interest. In the case of transponders, this works out to 300M meters/sec divided by 1050 cycles/second times 39.36 inches/meter times 0.25 wavelength and you get 2.8 inches. Twice this value is 5.6", the ideal resonant ground plane for transponder antennas. Making it just a little bigger because you can is counter productive. On the other hand, making it MUCH bigger (like the belly of a metal airplane) and it begins to approximate a non-resonant, infinite ground plane which is very good too . . . but a a whole different ballgame. The short answer is that for a non-conducting mounting surface the antenna performs best with the idealized, 1/4-wave radius disk. If you could mount it to several square feet of aluminum it would only slightly better . . . so slight that you would need to measure the difference in a well heeled RF lab. So the best recommendation is go for the 5.6" disk. Bob . . .


    Message 13


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    Time: 06:01:08 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Audio Amplifier heads-up
    At 03:42 PM 2/25/2013, you wrote: >Have you taken a look at the output RFI? Or is it reasonably well >filtered in your test PCB? With the highly susceptible nature of >some flying widgets, I'm curious what your take is. Not yet. The current application is terrestrial. I will explore that characteristic in due course. Bob . . .


    Message 14


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    Time: 08:29:14 PM PST US
    From: William Hibbing <n744bh@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: Ground plane diameter
    OK, thanks Bob.- It operates on 978 Mhz so I probably could have figured it out =0Aby breaking out my-ARRL Antenna Book but I guess I was just - a bit on the lazy =0Aside.=0A=0ABill=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________ ________=0AFrom: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> =0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Mon, February 25, 2013 8:06: 58 PM=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground plane diameter=0A=0AAt 03:30 PM 2/25/2013, you wrote:=0A=0AI'm upgrading avionics in my Glasair and one of the units I'm adding is a Garmin =0AGDL-88 for ADS-B out.- The antenn a I'm using is a Comant CI-105 and seeing it's =0Aa "plastic" airplane I've been wondering if a 6" diameter copper disc is large =0Aenough for the gro und plane or should I go a bit larger?- TIA=0A=0A-- To understand the workings of ground planes under=0A-- vertical 1/4-wave radiators (like comm, transponder=0A-- and DME) antennas, you need to take a little 'h ead=0A-- trip'.=0A=0A-- The older brother to a 1/4-wave antenna fed at the=0A-- base is a 1/2-wave antenna fed at the center (aka=0A-- VOR/LOC/GS atennas). The 1/2 wave antenna doesn't=0A-- need a 'ground' because is has useful places to send=0A-- 1/2 of the total energy into each of two identical,=0A-- complimentary radiators.=0A=0A-- Now, take a dipole and turn it up vertically as if=0A-- you wanted to use it for comm. Hmmmm . . . hard to=0A-- attach the coax to it while insulat ing the hot=0A-- end of the lower element. Okay, bend the lower element =0A-- 90 degrees. Now the feed point at the antenna=0A-- center com es down to skin level on the airplane . . .=0A-- but the 'bent' half of the antenna is seriously=0A-- compromised for efficiency as it no long er works=0A-- in concert with its unmodified counterpart.=0A=0A-- H mmmm . . . how to make the lion's share of the energy=0A-- flow into th e freely extended portion of the antenna=0A-- while reducing a wasteful venture onto the=0A-- compromised portion of the antenna? How about ad ding=0A-- a second compromised element? Assume the feed point=0A-- impedance of each element is R. Then a dipole in=0A-- extended splendor has a feed point impedance of 2R.=0A=0A-- You've still got R + R with the compromised dipole=0A-- but paralleling two 'crippled' elements at the base=0A-- gives you 1/2R + R. We see that energy fed to=0A-- th is network divides with 1/3 going to the compromised=0A-- side and 2/3 to the free element. Let's consider adding=0A-- 2 more 'compromised' el ements. Now we have 1/4R + R.=0A-- Great! 4/5ths of the energy goes to the working part=0A-- while only 1/5th is left free to roam and be a ge neral=0A-- nuisance to your radiation pattern.=0A=0A-- Now, if you want to squirt your signal off at an=0A-- angle that is closer to the h orizon, you can droop=0A-- those elements not unlike the antennas seen around=0A-- many airports.=0A=0A=0A -=0A=0A-- Take this exercise to an extreme . . . say 100=0A-- 'compromised' elements. Now you get 1/ 100R + R=0A-- and only 1% of the energy is left free to be=0A-- pro blematic. Further, 100 compromised elements=0A-- look very close to a s olid disk of material having=0A-- a RADIUS equal to the HEIGHT of the f ree element.=0A-- You sometimes see 100 drooping elements that look=0A -- very much like a cone of solid metal.=0A=0A-- So, getting back t o your question, the IDEAL small=0A-- ground plane has a radius equal t o the 1/4-wave=0A-- distance for the frequency of interest. In the case =0A-- of transponders, this works out to 300M meters/sec=0A-- divid ed by 1050 cycles/second times 39.36 inches/meter=0A-- times 0.25 wavel ength and you get 2.8 inches. Twice=0A-- this value is 5.6", the ideal resonant ground plane=0A-- for transponder antennas.=0A=0A-- Making it just a little bigger because you can is=0A-- counter productive. On the other hand, making it=0A-- MUCH bigger (like the belly of a metal airplane)=0A-- and it begins to approximate a non-resonant, infinite=0A -- ground plane which is very good too . . . but a=0A-- a whole dif ferent ballgame.=0A=0A-- The short answer is that for a non-conducting =0A-- mounting surface the antenna performs best with=0A-- the idea lized, 1/4-wave radius disk. If you=0A-- could mount it to several squa re feet of aluminum=0A-- it would only slightly better . . . so slight =0A-- that you would need to measure the difference=0A-- in a well heeled RF lab. So the best recommendation=0A-- is go for the 5.6" disk. =0A




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