---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 03/02/13: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:57 AM - Re: Re: lithum-ion batteries (R. curtis) 2. 09:13 AM - Re: Re: lithum-ion batteries (Robert Borger) 3. 11:36 AM - Re: Re: lithum-ion batteries (rayj) 4. 12:37 PM - Re: Re: lithum-ion batteries (David Lloyd) 5. 04:15 PM - Re: Re: lithum-ion batteries (rayj) 6. 10:08 PM - Re: Re: lithum-ion batteries (Jan) 7. 10:45 PM - Re: Re: lithum-ion batteries (James Robinson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:57:05 AM PST US From: "R. curtis" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: lithum-ion batteries What is the concensus opinion on lithium-ion batteries=3F I can get a Lith iun-ion battery with greater Amp/hr rating, cranking power, and save more than 1/2 the weight. Any comments=3F My opinion is: If you are willing to take the chance of burning up you r aircraft, then go for it. I personally feel that the saving in weight do es not justify the chance of a catastrophic thermal runaway internal to the Lithium Ion battery. Perhaps as the technology of these batteries matures I will change my thinking. Roger -- Do you have a slow PC=3F Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfi ghter=3Fcid=sigen ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:13:17 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: lithum-ion batteries From: Robert Borger Roger, The LiFePo batteries don't have the fire problem of the LiPo battery. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger@mac.com On Mar 2, 2013, at 10:55 AM, "R. curtis" wrote: What is the concensus opinion on lithium-ion batteries? I can get a Lithiun-ion battery with greater Amp/hr rating, cranking power, and save more than 1/2 the weight. Any comments? My opinion is: If you are willing to take the chance of burning up your aircraft, then go for it. I personally feel that the saving in weight does not justify the chance of a catastrophic thermal runaway internal to the Lithium Ion battery. Perhaps as the technology of these batteries matures I will change my thinking. Roger ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:36:58 AM PST US From: rayj Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: lithum-ion batteries James, I attached a report that was posted to the list a while ago. My personal opinion is that Li battery technology is not ready for use in aircraft. Check the archives for more info and opinions. Hope this is useful. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 03/01/2013 07:17 PM, James Robinson wrote: > What is the concensus opinion on lithium-ion batteries? I can get a > Lithiun-ion battery with greater Amp/hr rating, cranking power, and > save more than 1/2 the weight. Any comments? > James Robinson > Glasair lll N79R > Spanish Fork UT U77 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Thursday, February 28, 2013 11:30 AM > *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground plane diameter > > > > > At 11:48 AM 2/28/2013, you wrote: > > Then would be the recommendation for a more modern design that is > all carbon fiber? The carbon is conductive, but absorbs radiation > instead of reflecting it from what I understand. Go with a foil > circle or strips of the appropriate diameter on the outside of the > carbon, but under the paint? > > That's a whole other can of worms. The carbon fiber > is, as you've described, pretty lossy stuff. Yeah, it > is conductive but much of electrical energy flowing > through a carbon matrix is converted to heat. > > Trying to create idealized ground planes over the > carbon and under the paint is exceedingly expensive > and problematic for affecting structural integrity > of the shell. > > At HBC, non-resonant ground planes were bonded to the > inside surface of the fuselage shell. Relatively > inexpensive and the flight test results deemed them > adequate to the task. > > > Bent also available via the Web nbsp; -Matt > Dralle,=========== > > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:37:17 PM PST US From: "David Lloyd" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: lithum-ion batteries James, There are several chemical versions of these batteries and they tend to all get lumped and described as "LiPo" batteries. So, one has to know the chemistry details of the so called LiPo battery in question and what it is really made of. The straight LiPo has incredible energy storage but, comes with a delicate nature. Kind of like a super model...!! Charging these batteries takes a specialized charging system usually, as individual cells can be finicky and each should be monitored and charged in a "Balanced" method. The battery is sensitive to temps. and not nearly as robust as say NiCad when hot and cold is involved. They can also be finicky about the max. storage voltage vs. the used everyday max charge voltage. It has the ability to pump out enormous amperage when required... e.g. engine starter motor. However, that kind of action has to carefully monitored because under heavy amperage loads they heat up. And, recall, heat at a certain level makes a LiPo battery or an individual cell very unhappy. And, as we are all aware, they also have some mystery internal chemical conditions that make them go off with uncertain madness...i.e. the super model comparison... Some of this mystery is still being unraveled..i.e. the Boeing 787 problems. If it were my choice, today, I probably would not opt for LiPo battery source in my expensive bird that only you support and not the world of taxpayers. This offered with the normal 2-cent return on advice. Hopefully, this topic with bring a real LiPo expert to the discussion so we can learn the real facts of these batteries. I know that we would not be able to run laptop computers, cell phones, and train load of other high tech gear with out the LiPo form of energy storage. David ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- ----- Original Message ----- From: James Robinson To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 5:17 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: lithum-ion batteries What is the concensus opinion on lithium-ion batteries? I can get a Lithiun-ion battery with greater Amp/hr rating, cranking power, and save more than 1/2 the weight. Any comments? James Robinson Glasair lll N79R Spanish Fork UT U77 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 11:30 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground plane diameter At 11:48 AM 2/28/2013, you wrote: > Then would be the recommendation for a more modern design that is all carbon fiber? The carbon is conductive, but absorbs radiation instead of reflecting it from what I understand. Go with a foil circle or strips of the appropriate diameter on the outside of the carbon, but under the paint? That's a whole other can of worms. The carbon fiber is, as you've described, pretty lossy stuff. Yeah, it is conductive but much of electrical energy flowing through a carbon matrix is converted to heat. Trying to create idealized ground planes over the carbon and under the paint is exceedingly expensive and problematic for affecting structural integrity of the shell. At HBC, non-resonant ground planes were bonded to the inside surface of the fuselage shell. Relatively inexpensive and the flight test results deemed them adequate to the task. Bent also available via the Web nbsp; -Matt Dralle,=========== ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:15:20 PM PST US From: rayj Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: lithum-ion batteries Sorry, intended to send this to James only. do not archive Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 03/02/2013 01:28 PM, rayj wrote: > James, > > I attached a report that was posted to the list a while ago. My > personal opinion is that Li battery technology is not ready for use in > aircraft. Check the archives for more info and opinions. > > Hope this is useful. > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN. > > "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, > and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine > On 03/01/2013 07:17 PM, James Robinson wrote: >> What is the concensus opinion on lithium-ion batteries? I can get a >> Lithiun-ion battery with greater Amp/hr rating, cranking power, and >> save more than 1/2 the weight. Any comments? >> James Robinson >> Glasair lll N79R >> Spanish Fork UT U77 >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:* "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" >> *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >> *Sent:* Thursday, February 28, 2013 11:30 AM >> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground plane diameter >> >> > >> >> At 11:48 AM 2/28/2013, you wrote: >> > Then would be the recommendation for a more modern design that is >> all carbon fiber? The carbon is conductive, but absorbs radiation >> instead of reflecting it from what I understand. Go with a foil >> circle or strips of the appropriate diameter on the outside of the >> carbon, but under the paint? >> >> That's a whole other can of worms. The carbon fiber >> is, as you've described, pretty lossy stuff. Yeah, it >> is conductive but much of electrical energy flowing >> through a carbon matrix is converted to heat. >> >> Trying to create idealized ground planes over the >> carbon and under the paint is exceedingly expensive >> and problematic for affecting structural integrity >> of the shell. >> >> At HBC, non-resonant ground planes were bonded to the >> inside surface of the fuselage shell. Relatively >> inexpensive and the flight test results deemed them >> adequate to the task. >> >> >> >> Bent also available via the Web nbsp; -Matt Dralle,=========== >> >> >> >> >> >> * >> >> >> * > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:08:50 PM PST US From: Jan Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: lithum-ion batteries For what it is worth I work with Li-ion batteries for a living. No question they are lighter and will hold more energy and are able to deliver it faste r than other battery technologies. Problem is that you need to control them very well both in charge and discha rge. Failure can be rather interesting .... Easy in a car .. You just pull o ver and deal with the "issue". Not so easy when you at 5000ft. :-) For the weight saving in question. Go to the gym an loose a few pounds... Yo u live longer and do not have to worry about your battery pack. I will not b e fitting them in my RV ... And I can get them for free ... All the best Jan On Mar 3, 2013, at 3:28, rayj wrote: > James, > > I attached a report that was posted to the list a while ago. My personal o pinion is that Li battery technology is not ready for use in aircraft. Chec k the archives for more info and opinions. > > Hope this is useful. > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN. > > "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, > and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine > On 03/01/2013 07:17 PM, James Robinson wrote: >> What is the concensus opinion on lithium-ion batteries? I can get a Lith iun-ion battery with greater Amp/hr rating, cranking power, and save more t han 1/2 the weight. Any comments? >> >> James Robinson >> Glasair lll N79R >> Spanish Fork UT U77 >> >> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" >> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 11:30 AM >> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground plane diameter >> lls.bob@aeroelectric.com> >> >> At 11:48 AM 2/28/2013, you wrote: >> > Then would be the recommendation for a more modern design that is all c arbon fiber? The carbon is conductive, but absorbs radiation instead of ref lecting it from what I understand. Go with a foil circle or strips of the a ppropriate diameter on the outside of the carbon, but under the paint? >> >> That's a whole other can of worms. The carbon fiber >> is, as you've described, pretty lossy stuff. Yeah, it >> is conductive but much of electrical energy flowing >> through a carbon matrix is converted to heat. >> >> Trying to create idealized ground planes over the >> carbon and under the paint is exceedingly expensive >> and problematic for affecting structural integrity >> of the shell. >> >> At HBC, non-resonant ground planes were bonded to the >> inside surface of the fuselage shell. Relatively >> inexpensive and the flight test results deemed them >> adequate to the task. >> >> >> >> Bent also available via the Web nbsp; -Matt Dralle,== ========= >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:45:49 PM PST US From: James Robinson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: lithum-ion batteries Thanks everyone.- I will stick with the batteries I have.=0A=0A=0A-=0AJ ames Robinson=0AGlasair lll N79R=0ASpanish Fork UT U77=0A=0A=0A__________ ______________________=0A From: Jan =0ATo: "" =0ASent: Satu rday, March 2, 2013 11:06 PM=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: lithum-i on batteries=0A =0A=0A-For what it is worth I work with Li-ion batteries for a living. No question they are lighter and will hold more energy and a re able to deliver it faster than other battery technologies.=0A=0AProblem is that you need to control them very well both in charge and discharge. Fa ilure can be rather interesting .... Easy in a car .. You just pull over an d deal with the "issue". -Not so easy when you at 5000ft. - :-)=0A=0AFo r the weight saving in question. Go to the gym an loose a few pounds... You live longer and do not have to worry about your battery pack. I will not b e fitting them in my RV ... And I can get them for free ...-=0A=0AAll the best=0A=0AJan=0A=0AOn Mar 3, 2013, at 3:28, rayj wrote:=0A=0A=0AJames,=0A>=0A>I attached a report that was posted to the l ist a while ago.- My personal opinion is that Li battery technology is no t ready for use in aircraft.- Check the archives for more info and opinio ns.=0A>=0A>Hope this is useful.=0A>=0A>Raymond Julian=0AKettle River, MN. " And you know that I could have me a million more friends,=0Aand all I'd hav e to lose is my point of view." - John Prine =0AOn 03/01/2013 07:17 PM, Jam es Robinson wrote:=0A>=0A>What is the concensus opinion on lithium-ion batt eries? -I can get a Lithiun-ion battery -with greater Amp/hr rating, cr anking power, and save more than 1/2 the weight. -Any comments?=0A>>- =0A>>James Robinson=0A>>Glasair lll N79R=0A>>Spanish Fork UT U77=0A>>=0A>> =0A>>=0A>>________________________________=0A>> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" =0A>>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.co m =0A>>Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 11:30 AM=0A>>Subject: Re: AeroElec tric-List: Ground plane diameter=0A>> =0A>>--> AeroElectric-List message po sted by: "Robert L.=0A Nuckolls, III" =0A>>=0A>>At 11:48 AM 2/28/2013, you wrote:=0A>>> Then would be the re commendation for a more modern=0A design that is all carbon fibe r?- The carbon is conductive,=0A but absorbs radiation instead of reflecting it from what I=0A understand.- Go with a foil c ircle or strips of the=0A appropriate diameter on the outside of the carbon, but under=0A the paint?=0A>>=0A>>- That's a whole other can of worms. The carbon fiber=0A>>- is, as you've described, pret ty lossy stuff. Yeah, it=0A>>- is conductive but much of electrical energ y flowing=0A>>- through a carbon matrix is converted to heat.=0A>>=0A>> - Trying to create idealized ground planes over the=0A>>- carbon and un der the paint is exceedingly expensive=0A>>- and problematic for affectin g structural integrity=0A>>- of the shell.=0A>>=0A>>- At HBC, non-reson ant ground planes were bonded to the=0A>>- inside surface of the fuselage shell. Relatively=0A>>- inexpensive and the flight test results deemed t hem=0A>>- adequate to the task.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>- Bent also availabl e via the Web=0A nbsp; - - - - - - - - -Matt Dra lle,=============0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A> =========================0A =========================0A ======= ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.