---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 03/24/13: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:58 AM - Bazooka Dipole Antenna (user9253) 2. 09:27 AM - Re: 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update) (Holger Selover-Stephan) 3. 10:36 AM - Re: Bazooka Dipole Antenna (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 12:00 PM - Blind riveting ground to airframe? (rayj) 5. 12:00 PM - Wires in wing (rayj) 6. 12:47 PM - Re: Wires in wing (Robert Borger) 7. 01:32 PM - Re: 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update) (Charlie England) 8. 01:48 PM - Re: Wires in wing (William Greenley) 9. 02:21 PM - King KX170B Pin Help Needed (stearman456) 10. 02:27 PM - Re: Wires in wing (Sacha) 11. 02:33 PM - Re: King KX170B Pin Help Needed (Sacha) 12. 02:58 PM - Re: 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update) (Holger Selover-Stephan) 13. 03:15 PM - Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 03:41 PM - Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? (rayj) 15. 05:10 PM - Re: Wires in wing (Holger Selover-Stephan) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:46 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Bazooka Dipole Antenna From: "user9253" I made a Bazooka Dipole Antenna and tested it in my workshop using a RED DOT 1050A SWR bought on eBay. Overall length = 46.75" Braid length in center of antenna = 31" 136.525 Mhz, 2.8 SWR 127.525 Mhz, 1.31 SWR 118.525 Mhz, 2.4 SWR If the SWR does not change significantly when the antenna is installed in an aircraft, will the antenna performance be acceptable? Links to Bazooka Dipole Antenna: http://www.k3dav.com/buildadoublebazookaant.htm http://www.nsw.wicen.org.au/technical/projects/coaxial-folded-dipole-antenna Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396901#396901 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:27:45 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update) From: Holger Selover-Stephan A couple more information about this light: it's sealed and I don't see a way of opening it up and closing it without damage to the case. I may do it anyway to do something about the weight. Also, the packaging reveals they come with these beam angle: 20, 30, 40, 60 and 120. I have the 40, and that may actually be the best option for a landing light. The manufacturer appears to be "Advanced German Technology - AGT", and the model number "SZW-SM12317: http://i.imgur.com/AEIcNNe.jpg Holger On Mar 23, 2013, at 11:21 PM, Holger Selover-Stephan wrote: > The light arrived today. I'm very pleased with the output and the distance. It does emit RF noise, drowning out an Icom A6 with the squelch turned down to level 8 and held closer than 5 ft. WX transmissions are still clear even with the radio right next to the light. No idea that means trouble later in flight. I may just take it up and turn it on to try it out. > > The other thing is, it's fairly heavy: 1lb 12oz. I'll open it up to see if a lighter heatsink can be made for it. I'll report again in a few weeks. > > Holger > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:36:08 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bazooka Dipole Antenna At 09:53 AM 3/24/2013, you wrote: > >I made a Bazooka Dipole Antenna and tested it in my workshop using a >RED DOT 1050A SWR bought on eBay. >Overall length = 46.75" >Braid length in center of antenna = 31" >136.525 Mhz, 2.8 SWR >127.525 Mhz, 1.31 SWR >118.525 Mhz, 2.4 SWR >If the SWR does not change significantly when the antenna is >installed in an aircraft, will the antenna performance be acceptable? If you can find a means by which this antenna can be mounted vertically in the airplane, then it's almost a sure bet that it will perform as well as say, at 1/4-wave whisker sticking out of the fuselage. The only 1/2 wave antennas I recall were some vertical dipoles stuck on masts out in front of the wing on both sides of an airplane. This antenna pair was used on VHF direction finding systems to locate downed aircraft homing on their ELT or VHF comm transmissions. I'm curious as to foundation for statements in the article. Further, there are no empirical data offered for the trade off between this and any other design. This antenna and similar designs are touted for their increased bandwidth. But I'm wondering if this isn't simply a function of smaller length/diameter ratios for the conductors. I'm suspicious of the term "leaky coax" used to re-enforce the notion that foil-wrapped (and I presume double braid) coaxes won't work as well (or not at all?). The idealized, infinitely small conductor dipole has a very high Q (small bandwidth) compared to it's practical cousins built from say 1" diameter tubing with smaller l/d ratios. http://tinyurl.com/akb37r9 I'll have to dig out the antenna manuals but I think the classic folded dipoles found on many TV antennas having lengths of several feet divided by spacings of 2 or 3 inches were similarly blessed with large bandwidths. The author speaks to compatibility with either 50 ohm coax or 400 ohm ladder line (twin-lead) which is specious. The antenna will present an impedance at the feed point that will have the greatest compatibility with SOME kind of feed line but the commonly available commercial offerings are 50, 75, 93, 300 and 450 ohms . . .with the higher values being limited to balanced feeders that are NOT compatible with our world of 50 ohm transmitters and coax-wired airframes. The bottom line is that the literature I was able to find (admittedly hurried search) on this design offered no compelling arguments for its superiority over other dipole designs. As to probable performance on an airplane, we fly in a cloistered world of short-range, line of sight communications and navigation. For exceedingly relaxed constellation of requirements, radios like this found their way into light aircraft of the 1940s. Emacs! Powered with dry cells (A and B batteries!) this transceiver listened on 200-400 KHz (radio range and locator beacon frequencies) and talked on 120 Mhz VHF. The antenna was a short piece of wire strung outside the cabin. in some practical manner . . . This transmitter was probably good for 100 milliwatts or so, the receiver was probably in the 10-100 microvolt class. If you had asked the designer about importance of SWR for receive (antenna WAAAY too short) and transmit (WAAAY too long) the response would probably have cited a quantum leap in system performance bove light guns, megaphones and signal flags. Mounted to the panel of Luscome or J-3 in 1948, this radio would allow the TALENTED pilot to fly an non-precision approach to an airport using nearby A-N Radio Range transmitters. Emacs! The return on investment for seeking greater antenna performance in terms of radiation efficiency and directivity (so called gain) will have to be collected in points of academics and/or sense of craftsmanship. The probability that you and the guy you're talking too will hear any substantive difference between antenna-A and antenna-B is pretty low. By the way, if anyone stumbles across one of these radios offered for sale, I'd like to know about it. It was offered under Mitchell, Motorola and Gavin trade names but the term "Airboy" seems to have persisted across all the manufacturing venues. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:00:09 PM PST US From: rayj Subject: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? Greetings, I'm wondering about the wisdom of using a blind rivet to hold a terminal to the airframe. Is it an acceptable method? I don't know how much compressive force a rivet actually exerts and if it's enough to create a gas tight connection. Any other recommended ways to connect a wire to an Al ribbesides a nut and bolt? -- Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:00:09 PM PST US From: rayj Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing Greetings, I don't know what kind or if I'm going to put position lights in the wingtips, but I'd like to run the wire now before I close the wing up. How many wires should I run to the wingtip. I'm guessing 1 22ga for the position light and 1 ? fora wingtip mounted strobe. I assume I can ground the position light at the wingtip. What wiring do most strobes require? Do I need additional signal wire(s) to coordinate the strobes. Obviously, I don't have a handle on strobes. Thanks, -- Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:47:03 PM PST US From: Robert Borger Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing Raymond, Check out the LED aircraft lighting at aircraft spruce. Both Aveo Engineering and AeroLEDs make wingtip Nav/Pos/Strobe units with LED lighting. LED lighting will use 1 or 2 amps total compared to the 2 or 3 amps to drive incandescent Nav/Pos lights and the 5 amps to drive conventional strobes. Plus the weight of the strobe power supply box. The wiring is pretty simple compared to actual strobes which require heavy shielded wires. You can also go to the websites for both AeroLED and Aveo to download the installation instructions. Simply one 12v line for Nav/Pos lights and one 12v line for Strobes. Then one ground line for all. Finally a sync line from wingtip unit to wingtip unit to synchronize the strobe flashes. There are other manufacturers who provide LED units more specifically for the ultralight world. Check them all out and see which might be best for your application and then run wire accordingly. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger@mac.com On Mar 24, 2013, at 1:57 PM, rayj wrote: > Greetings, > > I don't know what kind or if I'm going to put position lights in the wingtips, but I'd like to run the wire now before I close the wing up. How many wires should I run to the wingtip. I'm guessing 1 22ga for the position light and 1 ? for a wingtip mounted strobe. I assume I can ground the position light at the wingtip. What wiring do most strobes require? Do I need additional signal wire(s) to coordinate the strobes. Obviously, I don't have a handle on strobes. > > Thanks, > -- > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN. > > "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, > and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:32:37 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update) Hi Holger, Thanks for the update; that's useful info. I'd love to hear about a side-by-side comparison with one of the common homebuilt lights, and with the 'stock' aviation landing light. If you have one of the older systems to do the comparison, please post the results. Charlie On 03/24/2013 11:03 AM, Holger Selover-Stephan wrote: > > A couple more information about this light: it's sealed and I don't see a way of opening it up and closing it without damage to the case. I may do it anyway to do something about the weight. Also, the packaging reveals they come with these beam angle: 20, 30, 40, 60 and 120. I have the 40, and that may actually be the best option for a landing light. The manufacturer appears to be "Advanced German Technology - AGT", and the model number "SZW-SM12317: http://i.imgur.com/AEIcNNe.jpg > > Holger > > On Mar 23, 2013, at 11:21 PM, Holger Selover-Stephan wrote: > >> The light arrived today. I'm very pleased with the output and the distance. It does emit RF noise, drowning out an Icom A6 with the squelch turned down to level 8 and held closer than 5 ft. WX transmissions are still clear even with the radio right next to the light. No idea that means trouble later in flight. I may just take it up and turn it on to try it out. >> >> The other thing is, it's fairly heavy: 1lb 12oz. I'll open it up to see if a lighter heatsink can be made for it. I'll report again in a few weeks. >> >> Holger >> > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:48:33 PM PST US From: "William Greenley" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing You might also want to look at ztronlabs.com. Bill Greenley RV-10 in progress From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Borger Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 3:41 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing Raymond, Check out the LED aircraft lighting at aircraft spruce. Both Aveo Engineering and AeroLEDs make wingtip Nav/Pos/Strobe units with LED lighting. LED lighting will use 1 or 2 amps total compared to the 2 or 3 amps to drive incandescent Nav/Pos lights and the 5 amps to drive conventional strobes. Plus the weight of the strobe power supply box. The wiring is pretty simple compared to actual strobes which require heavy shielded wires. You can also go to the websites for both AeroLED and Aveo to download the installation instructions. Simply one 12v line for Nav/Pos lights and one 12v line for Strobes. Then one ground line for all. Finally a sync line from wingtip unit to wingtip unit to synchronize the strobe flashes. There are other manufacturers who provide LED units more specifically for the ultralight world. Check them all out and see which might be best for your application and then run wire accordingly. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger@mac.com On Mar 24, 2013, at 1:57 PM, rayj wrote: Greetings, I don't know what kind or if I'm going to put position lights in the wingtips, but I'd like to run the wire now before I close the wing up. How many wires should I run to the wingtip. I'm guessing 1 22ga for the position light and 1 ? for a wingtip mounted strobe. I assume I can ground the position light at the wingtip. What wiring do most strobes require? Do I need additional signal wire(s) to coordinate the strobes. Obviously, I don't have a handle on strobes. Thanks, -- Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contri bution ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:21:06 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: King KX170B Pin Help Needed From: "stearman456" I'm in the process of mating up a PS Engineering PMA4000 TSO Audio Panel (slick little unit!) with a King KX170B, and a Garmin GNC250XL, but I'm having some trouble identifying the appropriate pins on the King radio. PS made up a harness for me and I've identified everything else I need, I just need confirmation of the KX170B pin positions for the following: 1) Nav audio Lo 2) Nav audio Hi 3) Com audio Lo 4) Com audio Hi 5) Com Mic audio Lo 6) Com Mic audio Hi I think I know what they are but the terminology of the 20th and 21st centuries isn't exactly seamless. Thanks, Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396920#396920 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:27:06 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing From: Sacha Raymond, I use Star Company's strobe unit and it has 4 wires for each wing. Here's th e manual, http://www.starcompany.it/Manuali/STROBE%20LIGHT%20THREE%20FLASH%20-%20USA%2 0STAR.pdf Regards Sacha On Mar 24, 2013, at 21:44, "William Greenley" wrote: > You might also want to look at ztronlabs.com. > Bill Greenley > RV-10 in progress > > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelect ric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Borger > Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 3:41 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing > > Raymond, > > Check out the LED aircraft lighting at aircraft spruce. Both Aveo Enginee ring and AeroLEDs make wingtip Nav/Pos/Strobe units with LED lighting. LED l ighting will use 1 or 2 amps total compared to the 2 or 3 amps to drive inca ndescent Nav/Pos lights and the 5 amps to drive conventional strobes. Plus t he weight of the strobe power supply box. The wiring is pretty simple comp ared to actual strobes which require heavy shielded wires. You can also go t o the websites for both AeroLED and Aveo to download the installation instru ctions. Simply one 12v line for Nav/Pos lights and one 12v line for Strobes . Then one ground line for all. Finally a sync line from wingtip unit to w ingtip unit to synchronize the strobe flashes. There are other manufacturer s who provide LED units more specifically for the ultralight world. Check t hem all out and see which might be best for your application and then run wi re accordingly. > > Blue skies & tailwinds, > Bob Borger > Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. > Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP > 3705 Lynchburg Dr. > Corinth, TX 76208-5331 > Cel: 817-992-1117 > rlborger@mac.com > > > On Mar 24, 2013, at 1:57 PM, rayj wrote: > > > Greetings, > > I don't know what kind or if I'm going to put position lights in the wingt ips, but I'd like to run the wire now before I close the wing up. How many w ires should I run to the wingtip. I'm guessing 1 22ga for the position ligh t and 1 ? for a wingtip mounted strobe. I assume I can ground the position l ight at the wingtip. What wiring do most strobes require? Do I need additio nal signal wire(s) to coordinate the strobes. Obviously, I don't have a han dle on strobes. > > Thanks, > > -- > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN. > > "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, > and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.m atronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/co ntribution > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > http://forums.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:33:14 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: King KX170B Pin Help Needed From: Sacha Should be in here http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/Bendix-King/ On Mar 24, 2013, at 22:13, "stearman456" wrote: > > I'm in the process of mating up a PS Engineering PMA4000 TSO Audio Panel ( slick little unit!) with a King KX170B, and a Garmin GNC250XL, but I'm havin g some trouble identifying the appropriate pins on the King radio. PS made u p a harness for me and I've identified everything else I need, I just need c onfirmation of the KX170B pin positions for the following: > > 1) Nav audio Lo > 2) Nav audio Hi > 3) Com audio Lo > 4) Com audio Hi > 5) Com Mic audio Lo > 6) Com Mic audio Hi > > I think I know what they are but the terminology of the 20th and 21st cent uries isn't exactly seamless. > > Thanks, > Dan > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396920#396920 > > > > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:58:57 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update) From: Holger Selover-Stephan On Mar 24, 2013, at 1:25 PM, Charlie England wrote: > > Hi Holger, > > Thanks for the update; that's useful info. I'd love to hear about a side-by-side comparison with one of the common homebuilt lights, and with the 'stock' aviation landing light. If you have one of the older systems to do the comparison, please post the results. > > Charlie Hi Charlie, Yes, I have a PAR-36 light here, and will point both lights down the runway when I'm back in town in 2-3 weeks. Holger ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:15:06 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? At 01:46 PM 3/24/2013, you wrote: >Greetings, > >I'm wondering about the wisdom of using a blind rivet to hold a >terminal to the airframe. Is it an acceptable method? I don't know >how much compressive force a rivet actually exerts and if it's >enough to create a gas tight connection. Any other recommended ways >to connect a wire to an Al rib besides a nut and bolt? Great question . . . Rivets are renowned for their shear strength and grip on the base material by swelling up in the hole as the formed head is crafted. I too am skeptical as to the axial mate up forces. At Cessna, there was a rule of thumb that called for no less than #8 hardware torqued to specs for attaching terminals to ground. #10 would be better yet. One can do the math to compute axial mate up forces for a threaded fastener . . . or probably look it up. But I've never seen data for a rivet. I don't have data to discourage the idea. Are you wanting to ground to a surface where the back side is inaccessible? How about a longer ground wire to a friendlier location? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:41:24 PM PST US From: rayj Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? The instructions show the fuel sender grounded with a rivet. I think I'll just drill a holeand use a nut and bolt. I'm thinking nylocknut-washer-sheetmetal-star washer-terminal-washer-bolt head. Any problem with putting 2 terminals under thebolt? Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 03/24/2013 05:05 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 01:46 PM 3/24/2013, you wrote: >> Greetings, >> >> I'm wondering about the wisdom of using a blind rivet to hold a >> terminal to the airframe. Is it an acceptable method? I don't know >> how much compressive force a rivet actually exerts and if it's enough >> to create a gas tight connection. Any other recommended ways to >> connect a wire to an Al rib besides a nut and bolt? > > Great question . . . > > Rivets are renowned for their shear strength and > grip on the base material by swelling up in the > hole as the formed head is crafted. I too > am skeptical as to the axial mate up forces. > > At Cessna, there was a rule of thumb that called > for no less than #8 hardware torqued to specs > for attaching terminals to ground. #10 would be > better yet. > > One can do the math to compute axial mate up > forces for a threaded fastener . . . or probably > look it up. But I've never seen data for a rivet. > I don't have data to discourage the idea. Are you > wanting to ground to a surface where the back side > is inaccessible? How about a longer ground wire > to a friendlier location? > > Bob . . . > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:10:57 PM PST US From: Holger Selover-Stephan Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing When I installed wing tip lines I had some fun time running the wires from the root to the tip. But I left a fishing line in the wings that will make future wire installation much easier. Just another thought on this topic... Holger On Mar 24, 2013, at 2:24 PM, Sacha wrote: > Raymond, > I use Star Company's strobe unit and it has 4 wires for each wing. Here's the manual, > http://www.starcompany.it/Manuali/STROBE%20LIGHT%20THREE%20FLASH%20-%20USA %20STAR.pdf > Regards > Sacha ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.