---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 03/25/13: 34 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:17 AM - Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 06:25 AM - Re: Wires in wing (rayj) 3. 06:27 AM - Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? (Sacha) 4. 06:28 AM - Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? (rayj) 5. 06:52 AM - Contactor clicks but doesn't make electrical contact (Roger & Jean) 6. 07:11 AM - Re: Bazooka Dipole Antenna (user9253) 7. 07:31 AM - Re: Wires in wing (Werner Schneider) 8. 07:44 AM - Re: Re: Bazooka Dipole Antenna (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 07:44 AM - Re: Contactor clicks but doesn't make electrical contact (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 07:50 AM - Re: Wires in wing (CHARLES T BECKER) 11. 07:56 AM - Re: Wires in wing (rayj) 12. 08:38 AM - Re: Wires in wing (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 08:48 AM - Re: Wires in wing (Harley) 14. 08:48 AM - Re: Wires in wing (Werner Schneider) 15. 08:57 AM - Re: Bazooka Dipole Antenna (user9253) 16. 09:38 AM - Re: Wires in wing (Jeff Luckey) 17. 10:23 AM - Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? (Ken) 18. 11:04 AM - Re: Wires in wing (rayj) 19. 11:08 AM - Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? (rayj) 20. 11:52 AM - Re: Wires in wing (Jay Hyde) 21. 11:59 AM - Re: Re: Bazooka Dipole Antenna (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 22. 12:40 PM - Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 23. 12:46 PM - Re: Wires in wing (DeWitt Whittington) 24. 02:23 PM - Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? (rayj) 25. 02:30 PM - Re: Wires in wing (rayj) 26. 02:57 PM - Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? (Jared Yates) 27. 03:10 PM - Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? (Harley) 28. 04:32 PM - Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? (rayj) 29. 04:51 PM - Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? (Jared Yates) 30. 05:08 PM - Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? (Ben Haas) 31. 05:23 PM - Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 32. 05:38 PM - Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? (Paul Thomson) 33. 05:51 PM - Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? (rayj) 34. 07:53 PM - Re: Wires in wing (Gordon or Marge) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:17:14 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? At 05:36 PM 3/24/2013, you wrote: >The instructions show the fuel sender grounded with a rivet. I >think I'll just drill a hole and use a nut and bolt. I'm thinking >nylocknut-washer-sheetmetal-star washer-terminal-washer-bolt head. Hmmmm . . . the fuel level sender is a unusual case . . . very low current flow. The rules of thumb for bonding to the airframe are based on design goals for (1) minimizing voltage drop at current and (2) maintaining joint integrity with effects of age. The rivet would probably work for this application but the screw and nut are never wrong. > Any problem with putting 2 terminals under the bolt? No Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:25:32 AM PST US From: rayj Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing Holger, That's something I'm considering. My concern is having the wires laying on the edges of the lightening holes. Did you runthe line through adel clamps, or anything? Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 03/24/2013 06:55 PM, Holger Selover-Stephan wrote: > When I installed wing tip lines I had some fun time running the wires > from the root to the tip. But I left a fishing line in the wings that > will make future wire installation much easier. Just another thought > on this topic... > > Holger > > On Mar 24, 2013, at 2:24 PM, Sacha wrote: > >> Raymond, >> I use Star Company's strobe unit and it has 4 wires for each wing. >> Here's the manual, >> http://www.starcompany.it/Manuali/STROBE%20LIGHT%20THREE%20FLASH%20-%20USA%20STAR.pdf >> >> Regards >> Sacha > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:27:56 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? From: Sacha If you go the rivet way, a stainless steel one would probably be the way to g o. On Mar 25, 2013, at 2:16, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > At 05:36 PM 3/24/2013, you wrote: >> The instructions show the fuel sender grounded with a rivet. I think I'l l just drill a hole and use a nut and bolt. I'm thinking nylocknut-washer-s heetmetal-star washer-terminal-washer-bolt head. > > Hmmmm . . . the fuel level sender is a unusual case . . . > very low current flow. The rules of thumb for bonding > to the airframe are based on design goals for (1) minimizing > voltage drop at current and (2) maintaining joint integrity > with effects of age. The rivet would probably work for this > application but the screw and nut are never wrong. > >> Any problem with putting 2 terminals under the bolt? > > No > > Bob . . . > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:28:03 AM PST US From: rayj Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? Thanks. donot archive Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 03/24/2013 08:16 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 05:36 PM 3/24/2013, you wrote: >> The instructions show the fuel sender grounded with a rivet. I think >> I'll just drill a hole and use a nut and bolt. I'm thinking >> nylocknut-washer-sheetmetal-star washer-terminal-washer-bolt head. > > Hmmmm . . . the fuel level sender is a unusual case . . . > very low current flow. The rules of thumb for bonding > to the airframe are based on design goals for (1) minimizing > voltage drop at current and (2) maintaining joint integrity > with effects of age. The rivet would probably work for this > application but the screw and nut are never wrong. > >> Any problem with putting 2 terminals under the bolt? > > No > > Bob . . . > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:52:21 AM PST US From: "Roger & Jean" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Contactor clicks but doesn't make electrical contact Bob, Re: the contactor that we were discussing a week or two ago. I believe that it is the original assembly in a C177B. I removed it yesterday and replaced with a 3 terminal, same as was originally installed, unit and it works perfectly. The junk item went in the mail this AM, so you should have it in a cauple of days. It will be interesting to find out what you observe as the failure when you tear it down. Thanks for what you do! Roger ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:11:32 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Bazooka Dipole Antenna From: "user9253" Thanks for the reply, Bob. I thought the same as you, that the electrons would oscillate in foil just as easily as in braid. So I tried to use some foil and braid wrapped RG-6/U for greater bandwidth. But it was very difficult to remove the foil. It was glued to the foam insulation surrounding the center conductor. So I gave up using the RG-6/U and used RG-58 instead. I think using the Bazooka Dipole Antenna would be an option in a non-conductive fuselage like wood or fiberglass. The antenna could be glued to the fuselage skin so that the ends of the antenna are vertical. The claims of improved bandwidth and performance may be unfounded. But I like it that no balun is required, unlike some other dipole antennas. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396986#396986 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:31:47 AM PST US From: Werner Schneider Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing Raymond, I did fabricate L shaped holders going through the lightening hole, with a cut left and right to add a tie wrap to hold the cables on the L. Similar things in plastic are available as well. I can provide a picture probably from my archive somewhere. cheers Werner On 25.03.2013 14:23, rayj wrote: > Holger, > > My concern is having the wires laying > on the edges of the lightening holes. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:44:22 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Bazooka Dipole Antenna > I think using the Bazooka Dipole Antenna would be an option in a > non-conductive fuselage like wood or fiberglass. The antenna could > be glued to the fuselage skin so that the ends of the antenna are vertical. Keep in mind that it's the high current conductors of the antenna that do the radiation. These happen at the center. It's the portions around the feed line connection that need to be 'most vertical' . . .the ends can wrap around the fuselage. > The claims of improved bandwidth and performance may be > unfounded. But I like it that no balun is required, unlike some > other dipole antennas. That's the really phoney feature of this article. The antenna is obviously a form of dipole which is a balanced antenna . . . simply attaching a coax feeder to the center as depicted produces the same conflict as for any dipole. In terms of measurable performance, doing the balanced to unbalanced mambo isn't all that big a deal. For a plastic/wood airplane, you might consider 1" wide copper foil tape stuck to the inside surface of the fuselage. See the foil antenna series of pictures at: http://tinyurl.com/btbu4cm The elements for VHF comm would start at 22+ inches each and then get trimmed for lowest SWR at 126Mhz. The width of the foil goes to bandwidth. As suggested before, orientation in the aircraft should have as much of the center vertical with the ends wrapping around the upper and lower surfaced of the fuselage. Bob Archer's SA-006 antenna is one example of a physically shortened design with an unbalanced feed point. http://media.chiefaircraft.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/im If you're inclined to experimentation, you could do some more work on the bench with a design that makes a bit more sense than the 'bazooka' dipole. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:44:26 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Contactor clicks but doesn't make electrical contact >The junk item went in the mail this AM, so you should have it in a >cauple of days. It will be interesting to find out what you observe >as the failure when you tear it down. Great! >Thanks for what you do! You're most welcome sir. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:50:30 AM PST US From: "CHARLES T BECKER" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing Secure a length of 1/2-3/4 in thinwall plastic conduit from the aviation department at Lowes/Home Depot in the wing with wire ties. I did mine after we had closed the wing. The smooth surface makes fishing wire super easy. On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 16:55:53 -0700 Holger Selover-Stephan wrote: > When I installed wing tip lines I had some fun time >running the wires from the root to the tip. But I left a >fishing line in the wings that will make future wire >installation much easier. Just another thought on this >topic... > > Holger > > On Mar 24, 2013, at 2:24 PM, Sacha wrote: > >> Raymond, >> I use Star Company's strobe unit and it has 4 wires for >>each wing. Here's the manual, >> http://www.starcompany.it/Manuali/STROBE%20LIGHT%20THREE%20FLASH%20-%20USA%20STAR.pdf >> Regards >> Sacha ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:56:17 AM PST US From: rayj Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing I'm not sure how I would install the tie wrap inside a closed wing. Right now I'm leaning toward installing adel clamps with a piece of lacing cord strung through them. I think a 1/2 inch cushioned clamp should be large enough. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 03/25/2013 09:30 AM, Werner Schneider wrote: > > > Raymond, I did fabricate L shaped holders going through the lightening > hole, with a cut left and right to add a tie wrap to hold the cables > on the L. Similar things in plastic are available as well. > > I can provide a picture probably from my archive somewhere. > > cheers Werner > > On 25.03.2013 14:23, rayj wrote: >> Holger, >> >> My concern is having the wires laying >> on the edges of the lightening holes. > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:38:06 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing At 09:55 AM 3/25/2013, you wrote: >I'm not sure how I would install the tie wrap inside a closed >wing. Right now I'm leaning toward installing adel clamps with a >piece of lacing cord strung through them. I think a 1/2 inch >cushioned clamp should be large enough. Consider a plastic conduit in Adel clamps. The hardware stores stock a variety of water pipe in sizes down to 3/8". I think you'll find that the 3/8 is large enough to accept your wires . . . it's easy to test at the store . . . otherwise go up to 1/2". Here'a one example of many. http://tinyurl.com/cccad2q The stuff is light, cheap, smooth wall and 100% assurance for ease of installing wires at a later date. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:48:14 AM PST US From: Harley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing On 3/25/2013 11:36 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > I think you'll find that the 3/8 is large enough to accept your > wires > The stuff is light, cheap, smooth wall and 100% assurance for > ease > of installing wires at a later date. I used a length of that tubing to PUSH the antenna and nav/strobe light wires through the wing hole in my Long EZ. Taped the wires to the end of the tubing, then pushed the tubing through. Removed the tubing when done, leaving the wires inside the original foam tunnel with no tubing around it. Don't want that extra weight in there! Clamped the wires where they exited the tunnel to hold them in place...don't really care what they do inside the foam tunnel. Harley Dixon ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:48:31 AM PST US From: Werner Schneider Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing Sorry, I did not get it you had a closed wing, I did these before closing the wing. On 25.03.2013 15:55, rayj wrote: > I'm not sure how I would install the tie wrap inside a closed wing. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:57:46 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Bazooka Dipole Antenna From: "user9253" Bob, Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Sometimes I believe what I read on the internet even though I should not. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397003#397003 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:40 AM PST US From: "Jeff Luckey" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing Bob, I considered using plastic/PVC plumbing tubing/pipe for the conduit in the wing of my RV-7A but rejected it based on the idea that combustion bi-products from those materials could be lethal. In the event of a fire, I might be rendered unconscious (or worse) before I even got a chance to fight the fire. Therefore I opted for some thin-wall aluminum tube. I'm curious about what other "listers" think. -Jeff _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 07:36 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing At 09:55 AM 3/25/2013, you wrote: I'm not sure how I would install the tie wrap inside a closed wing. Right now I'm leaning toward installing adel clamps with a piece of lacing cord strung through them. I think a 1/2 inch cushioned clamp should be large enough. Consider a plastic conduit in Adel clamps. The hardware stores stock a variety of water pipe in sizes down to 3/8". I think you'll find that the 3/8 is large enough to accept your wires . . . it's easy to test at the store . . . otherwise go up to 1/2". Here'a one example of many. http://tinyurl.com/cccad2q The stuff is light, cheap, smooth wall and 100% assurance for ease of installing wires at a later date. Bob . . . No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:24 AM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? No doubt a rivet would work for awhile but considering that I often use various 1/8" pulled rivets as a movable pivot for things like specialized bolt holding pliers, I really don't think they have much residual axial tension after pulling. Put one rivet through two pieces of scrap aluminum and you will see what I mean. Corrosion-x "oil" always seems to seep out around these rivets even when applied after painting and even if the rivet was inserted wet with epoxy primer. Doesn't seem likely to be gas tight to me. Ken On 24/03/2013 9:16 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 05:36 PM 3/24/2013, you wrote: >> The instructions show the fuel sender grounded with a rivet. I think >> I'll just drill a hole and use a nut and bolt. I'm thinking >> nylocknut-washer-sheetmetal-star washer-terminal-washer-bolt head. > > Hmmmm . . . the fuel level sender is a unusual case . . . > very low current flow. The rules of thumb for bonding > to the airframe are based on design goals for (1) minimizing > voltage drop at current and (2) maintaining joint integrity > with effects of age. The rivet would probably work for this > application but the screw and nut are never wrong. > >> Any problem with putting 2 terminals under the bolt? > > No > > Bob . . . > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:04:50 AM PST US From: rayj Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing Jeff, That is my 1st choice. Where did you get your thin wall aluminum. I've not been able to find anything that was the right combination of weight, stiffness/straightness, cost and diameter. Something like lawn furniture tubing only smallerdia. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 03/25/2013 12:36 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote: > > Bob, > > I considered using plastic/PVC plumbing tubing/pipe for the conduit in > the wing of my RV-7A but rejected it based on the idea that combustion > bi-products from those materials could be lethal. In the event of a > fire, I might be rendered unconscious (or worse) before I even got a > chance to fight the fire. > > Therefore I opted for some thin-wall aluminum tube. I'm curious about > what other "listers" think. > > -Jeff > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > *Robert L. Nuckolls, III > *Sent:* Monday, March 25, 2013 07:36 > *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing > > At 09:55 AM 3/25/2013, you wrote: > > I'm not sure how I would install the tie wrap inside a closed wing. > Right now I'm leaning toward installing adel clamps with a piece of > lacing cord strung through them. I think a 1/2 inch cushioned clamp > should be large enough. > > > Consider a plastic conduit in Adel clamps. The hardware stores > stock a variety of water pipe in sizes down to 3/8". I think you'll > find that the 3/8 is large enough to accept your wires . . . it's > easy to test at the store . . . otherwise go up to 1/2". Here'a > one example of many. > > http://tinyurl.com/cccad2q > > The stuff is light, cheap, smooth wall and 100% assurance for ease > of installing wires at a later date. > > > Bob . . . > > * * > * * > ** > ** > ** > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List* > ** > ** > *http://forums.matronics.com* > ** > ** > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > * * > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > 03/23/13 > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:08:21 AM PST US From: rayj Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? My thoughts also. I've been looking for some #10 (an2?)"blessed"fasteners without much luck. Anyone know a good source. An3 seems like overkill for a grounding wire. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 03/25/2013 12:22 PM, Ken wrote: > > No doubt a rivet would work for awhile but considering that I often > use various 1/8" pulled rivets as a movable pivot for things like > specialized bolt holding pliers, I really don't think they have much > residual axial tension after pulling. Put one rivet through two pieces > of scrap aluminum and you will see what I mean. Corrosion-x "oil" > always seems to seep out around these rivets even when applied after > painting and even if the rivet was inserted wet with epoxy primer. > Doesn't seem likely to be gas tight to me. > Ken > > On 24/03/2013 9:16 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> At 05:36 PM 3/24/2013, you wrote: >>> The instructions show the fuel sender grounded with a rivet. I think >>> I'll just drill a hole and use a nut and bolt. I'm thinking >>> nylocknut-washer-sheetmetal-star washer-terminal-washer-bolt head. >> >> Hmmmm . . . the fuel level sender is a unusual case . . . >> very low current flow. The rules of thumb for bonding >> to the airframe are based on design goals for (1) minimizing >> voltage drop at current and (2) maintaining joint integrity >> with effects of age. The rivet would probably work for this >> application but the screw and nut are never wrong. >> >>> Any problem with putting 2 terminals under the bolt? >> >> No >> >> Bob . . . >> > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:59 AM PST US From: "Jay Hyde" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing If you were talking about wiring in your cockpit or fuselage I'd agree; but if you have a fire in your wing I think that gasses are going to be one of your smaller worries.. J Johannnesburg Jay From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Luckey Sent: 25 March 2013 07:37 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing Bob, I considered using plastic/PVC plumbing tubing/pipe for the conduit in the wing of my RV-7A but rejected it based on the idea that combustion bi-products from those materials could be lethal. In the event of a fire, I might be rendered unconscious (or worse) before I even got a chance to fight the fire. Therefore I opted for some thin-wall aluminum tube. I'm curious about what other "listers" think. -Jeff _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 07:36 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing At 09:55 AM 3/25/2013, you wrote: I'm not sure how I would install the tie wrap inside a closed wing. Right now I'm leaning toward installing adel clamps with a piece of lacing cord strung through them. I think a 1/2 inch cushioned clamp should be large enough. Consider a plastic conduit in Adel clamps. The hardware stores stock a variety of water pipe in sizes down to 3/8". I think you'll find that the 3/8 is large enough to accept your wires . . . it's easy to test at the store . . . otherwise go up to 1/2". Here'a one example of many. http://tinyurl.com/cccad2q The stuff is light, cheap, smooth wall and 100% assurance for ease of installing wires at a later date. Bob . . . http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 03/23/13 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:59:30 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Bazooka Dipole Antenna At 10:57 AM 3/25/2013, you wrote: > >Bob, >Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Sometimes I believe what I read >on the internet even though I should not. >Joe Better to have read, considered and accepted/rejected for logical reasons. Education is not cheap. It takes time, thought, experimentation, study and in some cases assumption of risk. Over my lifetime, I've probably pitched $thousands$ in poor return-on-investment or failed experiments . . . but it's just as useful to know what things do work as for those that do not. I'm pleased that you brought this conversation to the List! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:40:37 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? At 01:08 PM 3/25/2013, you wrote: >My thoughts also. I've been looking for some #10 (an2?) "blessed" >fasteners without much luck. Anyone know a good source. An3 seems >like overkill for a grounding wire. Consider the effects of scale. In the case for grounding a fuel level sensor (22AWG wires?) and milliamps of current, #6 hardware is certainly robust enough to the task. The larger fasteners come into play when you're wanting to increase the gas-tight contact area for the purpose of carrying lots of current. For example, taking a battery(-) to structure would certainly benefit from the capabilities of #10 or even .25 hardware to put the super-mash on the terminals. Cessna's rule of thumb was for #8 hardware probably sufficed for most appliances. The occasional device (landing gear hydraulic pumps for example) would give pause to consider something larger. Milliamp loads would be fine with #6. The question that launched this thread called for considering the long term performance of a rivet to provide axial pressures on made-up parts. I think the consensus was that rivets are problematic but appropriately sized threaded fasteners were always appropriate. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:46:10 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing From: DeWitt Whittington Ditto. We ran HDPE (High Density Polyethelyne) tubing through left and right wings in our Sportsman. Works well. Here are a couple of photos. We got it from McMaster-Carr. 50375 K534 HDPE tubing 3/4 OD x 5/8 ID x 1/16 wall Dee On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Jay Hyde wrote: > If you were talking about wiring in your cockpit or fuselage I=92d agree; > but if you have a fire in your wing I think that gasses are going to be o ne > of your smaller worries=85. J**** > > ** ** > > Johannnesburg Jay**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Jeff Luckey > *Sent:* 25 March 2013 07:37 PM > *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* RE: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing**** > > ** ** > > Bob,**** > > ** ** > > I considered using plastic/PVC plumbing tubing/pipe for the conduit in th e > wing of my RV-7A but rejected it based on the idea that combustion > bi-products from those materials could be lethal. In the event of a fire , > I might be rendered unconscious (or worse) before I even got a chance to > fight the fire.**** > > ** ** > > Therefore I opted for some thin-wall aluminum tube. I=92m curious about > what other =93listers=94 think.**** > > ** ** > > -Jeff**** > > ** ** > ------------------------------ > > *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [ > mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] > *On Behalf Of *Robert L. Nuckolls, III > *Sent:* Monday, March 25, 2013 07:36 > *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing**** > > ** ** > > At 09:55 AM 3/25/2013, you wrote:**** > > I'm not sure how I would install the tie wrap inside a closed wing. Righ t > now I'm leaning toward installing adel clamps with a piece of lacing cord > strung through them. I think a 1/2 inch cushioned clamp should be large > enough.**** > > > Consider a plastic conduit in Adel clamps. The hardware stores > stock a variety of water pipe in sizes down to 3/8". I think you'll > find that the 3/8 is large enough to accept your wires . . . it's > easy to test at the store . . . otherwise go up to 1/2". Here'a > one example of many. > > http://tinyurl.com/cccad2q > > The stuff is light, cheap, smooth wall and 100% assurance for ease > of installing wires at a later date. > > **** > > Bob . . . **** > > * * > > * * > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List* > > * * > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > * * > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > * * > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > 03/23/13**** > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > ** > > * * > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > -- DeWitt (Dee) Whittington 804-677-4849 iPhone 804-358-4333 Home www.VirginiaFlyIn.org Building Glasair Sportsman with 3 partners ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:23:24 PM PST US From: rayj Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head boltsbecause I prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads. I gave up my search and ordered some #8 and #10 phillips round head screws. I'll probably stock up on #10 terminals and use them for all my ground connections. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 03/25/2013 02:38 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 01:08 PM 3/25/2013, you wrote: >> My thoughts also. I've been looking for some #10 (an2?) "blessed" >> fasteners without much luck. Anyone know a good source. An3 seems >> like overkill for a grounding wire. > > Consider the effects of scale. In the case for > grounding a fuel level sensor (22AWG wires?) > and milliamps of current, #6 hardware is > certainly robust enough to the task. The > larger fasteners come into play when you're > wanting to increase the gas-tight contact > area for the purpose of carrying lots of current. > For example, taking a battery(-) to structure > would certainly benefit from the capabilities of > #10 or even .25 hardware to put the super-mash > on the terminals. > > Cessna's rule of thumb was for #8 hardware > probably sufficed for most appliances. The > occasional device (landing gear hydraulic pumps > for example) would give pause to consider something > larger. Milliamp loads would be fine with #6. > > The question that launched this thread called > for considering the long term performance of > a rivet to provide axial pressures on made-up > parts. I think the consensus was that rivets > are problematic but appropriately sized threaded > fasteners were always appropriate. > > Bob . . . > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:30:52 PM PST US From: rayj Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing Thanks for all the information and ideas on running wire through the wing. I have decided to go with cushioned adelclampsand run some lacing cord through for pulling wire at a later date. Thanks again for everyone's input. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 03/25/2013 02:45 PM, DeWitt Whittington wrote: > Ditto. We ran HDPE (High Density Polyethelyne) tubing through left and > right wings in our Sportsman. Works well. Here are a couple of photos. > > We got it from McMaster-Carr. 50375 K534 HDPE tubing 3/4 OD x 5/8 ID > x 1/16 wall > > Dee > > > On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Jay Hyde > wrote: > > If you were talking about wiring in your cockpit or fuselage I'd > agree; but if you have a fire in your wing I think that gasses are > going to be one of your smaller worries.... J > > Johannnesburg Jay > > *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > ] *On Behalf > Of *Jeff Luckey > *Sent:* 25 March 2013 07:37 PM > *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > > *Subject:* RE: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing > > Bob, > > I considered using plastic/PVC plumbing tubing/pipe for the > conduit in the wing of my RV-7A but rejected it based on the idea > that combustion bi-products from those materials could be lethal. > In the event of a fire, I might be rendered unconscious (or worse) > before I even got a chance to fight the fire. > > Therefore I opted for some thin-wall aluminum tube. I'm curious > about what other "listers" think. > > -Jeff > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf > Of *Robert L. Nuckolls, III > *Sent:* Monday, March 25, 2013 07:36 > *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > > *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing > > At 09:55 AM 3/25/2013, you wrote: > > I'm not sure how I would install the tie wrap inside a closed > wing. Right now I'm leaning toward installing adel clamps with a > piece of lacing cord strung through them. I think a 1/2 inch > cushioned clamp should be large enough. > > > Consider a plastic conduit in Adel clamps. The hardware stores > stock a variety of water pipe in sizes down to 3/8". I think you'll > find that the 3/8 is large enough to accept your wires . . . it's > easy to test at the store . . . otherwise go up to 1/2". Here'a > one example of many. > > http://tinyurl.com/cccad2q > > The stuff is light, cheap, smooth wall and 100% assurance for ease > of installing wires at a later date. > > Bob . . . > > * * > > * * > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List* > > * * > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > * * > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > * * > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > 03/23/13 > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > **http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List** > > **** > > ** > > ** > > **http://forums.matronics.com** > > **** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > ** > > * * > > * > > ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > * > > > -- > DeWitt (Dee) Whittington > 804-677-4849 iPhone > 804-358-4333 Home > www.VirginiaFlyIn.org > Building Glasair Sportsman with 3 partners > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:57:55 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? From: Jared Yates When I compare the threads on my AN3 bolts to the threads on my 10-32 tap, t hey sure look similar. Why wouldn't one consider AN3 to be #10? Is this a " fetch a pail of propwash" question? On Mar 25, 2013, at 17:21, rayj wrote: > Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head bolts because I pre fer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads. I gave up my search an d ordered some #8 and #10 phillips round head screws. I'll probably stock up on #10 terminals and use them for all my ground connections. > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN. > > "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, > and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine > On 03/25/2013 02:38 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> At 01:08 PM 3/25/2013, you wrote: >>> My thoughts also. I've been looking for some #10 (an2?) "blessed" faste ners without much luck. Anyone know a good source. An3 seems like overkill for a grounding wire. >> >> Consider the effects of scale. In the case for >> grounding a fuel level sensor (22AWG wires?) >> and milliamps of current, #6 hardware is >> certainly robust enough to the task. The >> larger fasteners come into play when you're >> wanting to increase the gas-tight contact >> area for the purpose of carrying lots of current. >> For example, taking a battery(-) to structure >> would certainly benefit from the capabilities of >> #10 or even .25 hardware to put the super-mash >> on the terminals. >> >> Cessna's rule of thumb was for #8 hardware >> probably sufficed for most appliances. The >> occasional device (landing gear hydraulic pumps >> for example) would give pause to consider something >> larger. Milliamp loads would be fine with #6. >> >> The question that launched this thread called >> for considering the long term performance of >> a rivet to provide axial pressures on made-up >> parts. I think the consensus was that rivets >> are problematic but appropriately sized threaded >> fasteners were always appropriate. >> >> Bob . . . >> >> >> >> > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 03:10:27 PM PST US From: Harley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? AN bolts have rolled threads...if you have a "normal" tap you will CUT threads into the bolt, weakening it, causing bolt shaft weakness and potential fracture points: www.bhamfast.com/pdfs/bhamfast_rtct.pdf Harley ----------------------------------------------------------------- On 3/25/2013 5:57 PM, Jared Yates wrote: > When I compare the threads on my AN3 bolts to the threads on my > 10-32 tap, they sure look similar. Why wouldn't one consider > AN3 to be #10? Is this a "fetch a pail of propwash" question? > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 04:32:31 PM PST US From: rayj Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? Both fasteners have a thread pitch of 32 threads per inch. The difference lies in the diameter. An AN3 bolt has a major diameter of 0.375 inches. A #10 diameter fastener has a major diameter of 0.190 inches. Compare an AN3-6A bolt to an AN 526-10R12 screw. Both are approximately3/4 of an inch long and have 32 threads per inch on the threaded portion. As someone else mentioned AN/MS/NAS threads are all rolled threads, which are formed by deforming the blank shaft. Nomaterial is removed. Many other threads are made by cutting away material. Threads of the same size can be formed using either method. Hope this information is useful. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 03/25/2013 04:57 PM, Jared Yates wrote: > When I compare the threads on my AN3 bolts to the threads on my 10-32 > tap, they sure look similar. Why wouldn't one consider AN3 to be #10? > Is this a "fetch a pail of propwash" question? > > > On Mar 25, 2013, at 17:21, rayj > wrote: > >> Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head boltsbecause I >> prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads. I gave up my >> search and ordered some #8 and #10 phillips round head screws. I'll >> probably stock up on #10 terminals and use them for all my ground >> connections. >> Raymond Julian >> Kettle River, MN. >> >> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, >> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine >> On 03/25/2013 02:38 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>> At 01:08 PM 3/25/2013, you wrote: >>>> My thoughts also. I've been looking for some #10 (an2?) "blessed" >>>> fasteners without much luck. Anyone know a good source. An3 seems >>>> like overkill for a grounding wire. >>> >>> Consider the effects of scale. In the case for >>> grounding a fuel level sensor (22AWG wires?) >>> and milliamps of current, #6 hardware is >>> certainly robust enough to the task. The >>> larger fasteners come into play when you're >>> wanting to increase the gas-tight contact >>> area for the purpose of carrying lots of current. >>> For example, taking a battery(-) to structure >>> would certainly benefit from the capabilities of >>> #10 or even .25 hardware to put the super-mash >>> on the terminals. >>> >>> Cessna's rule of thumb was for #8 hardware >>> probably sufficed for most appliances. The >>> occasional device (landing gear hydraulic pumps >>> for example) would give pause to consider something >>> larger. Milliamp loads would be fine with #6. >>> >>> The question that launched this thread called >>> for considering the long term performance of >>> a rivet to provide axial pressures on made-up >>> parts. I think the consensus was that rivets >>> are problematic but appropriately sized threaded >>> fasteners were always appropriate. >>> >>> Bob . . . >>> >>> * >>> >>> >>> * >> >> * >> >> >> * > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 04:51:12 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? From: Jared Yates Say again please? I think .375 is more like the AN3 wrench size if we are t alking about the same thing. On Mar 25, 2013, at 19:31, rayj wrote: > Both fasteners have a thread pitch of 32 threads per inch. The difference lies in the diameter. > > An AN3 bolt has a major diameter of 0.375 inches. > > A #10 diameter fastener has a major diameter of 0.190 inches. > > Compare an AN3-6A bolt to an AN 526-10R12 screw. Both are approximately 3 /4 of an inch long and have 32 threads per inch on the threaded portion. > > As someone else mentioned AN/MS/NAS threads are all rolled threads, which a re formed by deforming the blank shaft. No material is removed. Many other threads are made b y cutting away material. Threads of the same size can be formed using either method. > > Hope this information is useful. > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN. > > "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, > and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine > On 03/25/2013 04:57 PM, Jared Yates wrote: >> When I compare the threads on my AN3 bolts to the threads on my 10-32 tap , they sure look similar. Why wouldn't one consider AN3 to be #10? Is this a "fetch a pail of propwash" question? >> >> >> >> On Mar 25, 2013, at 17:21, rayj wrote: >> >>> Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head bolts because I p refer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads. I gave up my search a nd ordered some #8 and #10 phillips round head screws. I'll probably stock u p on #10 terminals and use them for all my ground connections. >>> Raymond Julian >>> Kettle River, MN. >>> >>> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, >>> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine >>> On 03/25/2013 02:38 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>>> At 01:08 PM 3/25/2013, you wrote: >>>>> My thoughts also. I've been looking for some #10 (an2?) "blessed" fasteners without much luck. Anyone know a good source. An3 s eems like overkill for a grounding wire. >>>> >>>> Consider the effects of scale. In the case for >>>> grounding a fuel level sensor (22AWG wires?) >>>> and milliamps of current, #6 hardware is >>>> certainly robust enough to the task. The >>>> larger fasteners come into play when you're >>>> wanting to increase the gas-tight contact >>>> area for the purpose of carrying lots of current. >>>> For example, taking a battery(-) to structure >>>> would certainly benefit from the capabilities of >>>> #10 or even .25 hardware to put the super-mash >>>> on the terminals. >>>> >>>> Cessna's rule of thumb was for #8 hardware >>>> probably sufficed for most appliances. The >>>> occasional device (landing gear hydraulic pumps >>>> for example) would give pause to consider something >>>> larger. Milliamp loads would be fine with #6. >>>> >>>> The question that launched this thread called >>>> for considering the long term performance of >>>> a rivet to provide axial pressures on made-up >>>> parts. I think the consensus was that rivets >>>> are problematic but appropriately sized threaded >>>> fasteners were always appropriate. >>>> >>>> Bob . . . >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 05:08:04 PM PST US From: "Ben Haas" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? Agreed........ AN-3 is around .187"... NOT .375" do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Jared Yates Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? Say again please? I think .375 is more like the AN3 wrench size if we a re talking about the same thing. On Mar 25, 2013, at 19:31, rayj wrote: Both fasteners have a thread pitch of 32 threads per inch. The differen ce lies in the diameter. An AN3 bolt has a major diameter of 0.375 inches. A #10 diameter fastener has a major diameter of 0.190 inches. Compare an AN3-6A bolt to an AN 526-10R12 screw. Both are approximately 3/4 of an inch long and have 32 threads per inch on the threaded portio n. As someone else mentioned AN/MS/NAS threads are all rolled threads, whic h are formed by deforming the blank shaft. No material is removed. Many other threads are made by cutting away material. Threads of the same s ize can be formed using either method. Hope this information is useful. Raymond JulianKettle River, MN."And you know that I could have me a mill ion more friends,and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John P rine On 03/25/2013 04:57 PM, Jared Yates wrote: When I compare the threads on my AN3 bolts to the threads on my 10-32 ta p, they sure look similar. Why wouldn't one consider AN3 to be #10? Is this a "fetch a pail of propwash" question? On Mar 25, 2013, at 17:21, rayj wrote: Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head bolts because I p refer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads. I gave up my sea rch and ordered some #8 and #10 phillips round head screws. I'll probabl y stock up on #10 terminals and use them for all my ground connections. Raymond JulianKettle River, MN."And you know that I could have me a mill ion more friends,and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John P rine On 03/25/2013 02:38 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: At 01:08 PM 3/25/2013, you wrote: My thoughts also. I've been looking for some #10 (an2?) "blessed" faste ners without much luck. Anyone know a good source. An3 seems like over kill for a grounding wire. Consider the effects of scale. In the case for grounding a fuel level sensor (22AWG wires?) and milliamps of current, #6 hardware is certainly robust enough to the task. The larger fasteners come into play when you're wanting to increase the gas-tight contact area for the purpose of carrying lots of current. For example, taking a battery(-) to structure would certainly benefit from the capabilities of #10 or even .25 hardware to put the super-mash on the terminals. Cessna's rule of thumb was for #8 hardware probably sufficed for most appliances. The occasional device (landing gear hydraulic pumps for example) would give pause to consider something larger. Milliamp loads would be fine with #6. The question that launched this thread called for considering the long term performance of a rivet to provide axial pressures on made-up parts. I think the consensus was that rivets are problematic but appropriately sized threaded fasteners were always appropriate. Bob . . . =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ____________________________________________________________ 1 Key Fat Loss Hormone? Doctor Reveals 1 Hormone Making You Fat & How To Banish It Now. http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL3241/5150e6b5153766b460d0st01duc ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 05:23:27 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? At 04:57 PM 3/25/2013, you wrote: >When I compare the threads on my AN3 bolts to the threads on my >10-32 tap, they sure look similar. Why wouldn't one consider AN3 to >be #10? Is this a "fetch a pail of propwash" question? See: http://www.coastfab.com/images/pdf/2010/bolts_an3_an10.pdf AN-X hardware is a very old specification that dates back to a time when the numbers actually meant something. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 05:38:21 PM PST US From: Paul Thomson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? The info I have says a #10 screw has a nominal diameter of 0.190 inches, wh ile an AN3 bolt is 0.1875 inches, both with 32 treads per inch.=0A=0ARight or wrong I just always treated them as interchangeable, or am I missing som ething here?=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Jar ed Yates =0ATo: "aeroelectric-list@matronics.com" =0ASent: Monday, March 25, 2013 6:52 PM=0ASu bject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?=0A =0A=0AS ay again please? -I think .375 is more like the AN3 wrench size if we are talking about the same thing.=0A=0A=0AOn Mar 25, 2013, at 19:31, rayj wrote:=0A=0A=0ABoth fasteners have a thread pitch of 32 threads per inch.- The difference lies in the diameter.=0A>=0A>An AN3 bolt has a major diameter of 0.375 inches.=0A>=0A>A #10 diameter fastener has a major diameter of 0.190 inches.=0A>=0A>Compare an AN3-6A bolt to an A N 526-10R12 screw.- Both are approximately3/4 of an inch long and have 32 threads per inch on the threaded portion.=0A>=0A>As someone else mentioned AN/MS/NAS threads are all rolled threads, which are formed by deforming th e blank shaft. Nomaterial is removed.- Many other threads are made by cut ting away material.- Threads of the same size can be formed using either method.=0A>-=0A>Hope this information is useful. =0A>=0A>Raymond Julian =0AKettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more frie nds,=0Aand all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine =0AOn 03 /25/2013 04:57 PM, Jared Yates wrote:=0A>=0A>When I compare the threads on my AN3 bolts to the threads on my 10-32 tap, they sure look similar. Why wo uldn't one consider AN3 to be #10? -Is this a "fetch a pail of propwash" question?=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>On Mar 25, 2013, at 17:21, rayj wrote:=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Agreed.- I was looking for so me "blessed" #10 hex head boltsbecause I prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads.- I gave up my search and ordered some #8 and #10 ph illips round head screws. I'll probably stock up on #10 terminals and use t hem for all my ground connections.=0A>>>=0A>>>Raymond Julian=0AKettle River , MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,=0Aand all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine =0AOn 03/25/2013 02:38 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:=0A>>>=0A>>>At 01:08 PM 3/25/2013, you wr ote:=0A>>>>=0A>>>>My thoughts also.- I've been looking for some #10 (an2? ) "blessed" fasteners without much luck.- Anyone know a good source.- A n3 seems like overkill for a grounding wire. =0A>>>>-- Consider the eff ects of scale. In the case for=0A>>>>-- grounding a fuel level sensor ( 22AWG wires?)=0A>>>>-- and milliamps of current, #6 hardware is=0A>>>> -- certainly robust enough to the task. The=0A>>>>-- larger fastene rs come into play when you're=0A>>>>-- wanting to increase the gas-tigh t contact=0A>>>>-- area for the purpose of carrying lots of current.=0A >>>>-- For example, taking a battery(-) to structure=0A>>>>-- would certainly benefit from the capabilities of=0A>>>>-- #10 or even .25 ha rdware to put the super-mash=0A>>>>-- on the terminals.=0A>>>>=0A>>>> -- Cessna's rule of thumb was for #8 hardware=0A>>>>-- probably suf ficed for most appliances. The=0A>>>>-- occasional device (landing gear hydraulic pumps=0A>>>>-- for example) would give pause to consider som ething=0A>>>>-- larger. Milliamp loads would be fine with #6.=0A>>>>=0A >>>>-- The question that launched this thread called=0A>>>>-- for c onsidering the long term performance of=0A>>>>-- a rivet to provide axi al pressures on made-up=0A>>>>-- parts.- I think the consensus was th at rivets=0A>>>>-- are problematic but appropriately sized threaded=0A> >>>-- fasteners were always appropriate.=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>- Bob . =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 05:51:44 PM PST US From: rayj Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? You are both correct. My mistake. I was thinking diameterof an an3 was 3/8 not 3/16. Boydo I feel dumb. My apologiesgentlemen. Itransposed which dimension is measured in 1/16ths and which is measured in 1/8ths. Now if I can only find out how take it out of the archive. :>) Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 03/25/2013 07:06 PM, Ben Haas wrote: > > Agreed........ > > AN-3 is around .187"... NOT .375" > > ============DNA removed by Raymond Julian========== > > > Ben Haas > N801BH > www.haaspowerair.com > > ---------- Original Message ---------- > From: Jared Yates > To: "aeroelectric-list@matronics.com" > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? > Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 19:52:04 -0400 > > Say again please? I think .375 is more like the AN3 wrench size if we > are talking about the same thing. > > On Mar 25, 2013, at 19:31, rayj > wrote: > >> Both fasteners have a thread pitch of 32 threads per inch. The >> difference lies in the diameter. >> >> An AN3 bolt has a major diameter of 0.375 inches. >> >> A #10 diameter fastener has a major diameter of 0.190 inches. >> >> Compare an AN3-6A bolt to an AN 526-10R12 screw. Both are >> approximately3/4 of an inch long and have 32 threads per inch on the >> threaded portion. >> >> As someone else mentioned AN/MS/NAS threads are all rolled threads, >> which are formed by deforming the blank shaft. Nomaterial is removed. >> Many other threads are made by cutting away material. Threads of the >> same size can be formed using either method. >> >> Hope this information is useful. >> Raymond Julian >> Kettle River, MN. >> >> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, >> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine >> On 03/25/2013 04:57 PM, Jared Yates wrote: >>> When I compare the threads on my AN3 bolts to the threads on my >>> 10-32 tap, they sure look similar. Why wouldn't one consider AN3 to >>> be #10? Is this a "fetch a pail of propwash" question? >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mar 25, 2013, at 17:21, rayj >> > wrote: >>> >>>> Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head boltsbecause >>>> I prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads. I gave >>>> up my search and ordered some #8 and #10 phillips round head >>>> screws. I'll probably stock up on #10 terminals and use them for >>>> all my ground connections. >>>> Raymond Julian >>>> Kettle River, MN. >>>> >>>> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, >>>> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine >>>> On 03/25/2013 02:38 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>>>> At 01:08 PM 3/25/2013, you wrote: >>>>>> My thoughts also. I've been looking for some #10 (an2?) >>>>>> "blessed" fasteners without much luck. Anyone know a good >>>>>> source. An3 seems like overkill for a grounding wire. >>>>> >>>>> Consider the effects of scale. In the case for >>>>> grounding a fuel level sensor (22AWG wires?) >>>>> and milliamps of current, #6 hardware is >>>>> certainly robust enough to the task. The >>>>> larger fasteners come into play when you're >>>>> wanting to increase the gas-tight contact >>>>> area for the purpose of carrying lots of current. >>>>> For example, taking a battery(-) to structure >>>>> would certainly benefit from the capabilities of >>>>> #10 or even .25 hardware to put the super-mash >>>>> on the terminals. >>>>> >>>>> Cessna's rule of thumb was for #8 hardware >>>>> probably sufficed for most appliances. The >>>>> occasional device (landing gear hydraulic pumps >>>>> for example) would give pause to consider something >>>>> larger. Milliamp loads would be fine with #6. >>>>> >>>>> The question that launched this thread called >>>>> for considering the long term performance of >>>>> a rivet to provide axial pressures on made-up >>>>> parts. I think the consensus was that rivets >>>>> are problematic but appropriately sized threaded >>>>> fasteners were always appropriate. >>>>> >>>>> Bob . . . >>>>> >>>>> * >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> * >>>> >>>> * >>>> >>>> >>>> * >>> * >>> >>> >>> * >> >> * >> >> >> * > * > > ============================================= > 2http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List"'>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > ============================================= > 2http://forums.matronics.com%22">http://forums.matronics.com > ============================================= > 2http://www.matronics.com/contribution%22">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ============================================= > > * > > > ____________________________________________________________ > *1 Key Fat Loss Hormone?* > Doctor Reveals 1 Hormone Making You Fat & How To Banish It Now. > RealDose.com > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 07:53:59 PM PST US From: "Gordon or Marge" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rayj Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 5:30 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing Thanks for all the information and ideas on running wire through the wing. I have decided to go with cushioned adel clamps and run some lacing cord through for pulling wire at a later date. Thanks again for everyone's input. Neoprene grommets work just as well. Just drill and deburr the holes. You can pick your routing to your advantage. Just make sure they are not too small. Gordon Comfort N363GC ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.