---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 03/29/13: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:20 AM - Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? (Peter Pengilly) 2. 06:19 AM - Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? (Sacha) 3. 06:19 AM - Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? (BobsV35B@aol.com) 4. 07:37 AM - Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? (Kelly McMullen) 5. 08:35 AM - Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 10:28 AM - (no subject) (DCS317@aol.com) 7. 01:15 PM - Re: (no subject) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 02:08 PM - Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? (Peter Pengilly) 9. 03:16 PM - Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? (BobsV35B@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:20:43 AM PST US From: Peter Pengilly Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? Ed, Drifting somewhat from the theme of this list, but to say that alclad doesn't need priming is a bold statement. In Texas maybe, but in a cool maritime climate it isn't really adequate protection against the dreaded metal worm in the long term. For grounding studs I have seen bright zinc plated bolts used with the primer removed from the structure they were inserted into. To make it clear what they are the paint finish was restored with a contrasting colour (blue in this case I'm thinking of against puke yellow primer), but leaving the nut holding the stud in unpainted for good electrical connection. Peter On 29/03/2013 02:57, Ed Holyoke wrote: > With primer barriers, particularly on the aluminum. Most sheet stock > in use on kitplanes is alclad and doesn't generally need primer. All > extruded angle and bar stock is not clad and needs to be primed to > prevent corrosion. Many folks prime all faying surfaces (where two > pieces fit together) and it should certainly be done at dissimilar > metal joints. > > Ed Holyoke > > On 3/27/2013 11:16 PM, B Tomm wrote: >> How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets to >> aluminum sheet and angle stock play nice together? >> Bevan >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of >> *Ed Holyoke >> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:35 PM >> *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? >> >> Stainless and aluminum don't play nice together. The aluminum will >> donate ions and corrode. Cad plated steel is the AN way. The cadmium >> is more anodic than the aluminum and acts as a sacrificial barrier. >> Eventually, it has no more ions to donate and loses it's value as a >> corrosion preventative. Time then for new hardware. Another approach >> would be to prime your hardware and install it wet. >> >> Ed Holyoke >> >> On 3/26/2013 7:25 AM, Jay Hyde wrote: >>> >>> Hello Sacha, >>> >>> I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural parts I >>> simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel ones >>> to protect against corrosion. Stainless steel and aluminium have >>> relatively close galvanic potentials as far as I can see. I have >>> given up trying to source, or even understand (!) the imperial nut >>> and bolt thread system; its far easier to walk into a bolt store and >>> ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts. J >>> >>> For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they are >>> not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a tap or >>> die...) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US. >>> >>> Johannesburg Jay >>> >>> *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of >>> *Sacha >>> *Sent:* 26 March 2013 03:58 PM >>> *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >>> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? >>> >>> Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and >>> where I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in >>> Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary. I've >>> been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some but can >>> only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail buyer. >>> >>> >>> On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj >> > wrote: >>> >>> Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be sure >>> the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big >>> assortment of small AN screws. If I could have gotten an stuff >>> with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it. Definitely >>> preferable to Phillips. >>> >>> Raymond Julian >>> >>> Kettle River, MN. >>> >>> >>> >>> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, >>> >>> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine >>> >>> On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx >>> drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips >>> Bill Schertz >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider >>> Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41 AM >>> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >>> >>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to >>> airframe? >>> >>> >>> >>> Ray checkout >>> http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm >>> >>> I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws >>> >>> Cheers Werner >>> >>> On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote: >>> >>> Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head bolts >>> because I >>> prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> * * >>> >>> * * >>> >>> * * >>> >>> * * >>> * * >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List <3D%22http:/www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>* >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> *http://forums.matronics.com <3D%22http:/forums.matronics.com>* >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution <3D%22http:/www.matronics.com/contribution>* >>> ** >>> * * >>> * >>> >>> >>> * >> * >> >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c >> * >> * >> >> >> * > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:19:44 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? From: Sacha Will any old primer do or are there products that work better than others on certain materials (I'm thinking Al and Stainless in particular since my Cro moly frame is already primed. On Mar 29, 2013, at 10:19, Peter Pengilly wrote: > Ed, > > Drifting somewhat from the theme of this list, but to say that alclad does n't need priming is a bold statement. In Texas maybe, but in a cool maritime climate it isn't really adequate protection against the dreaded metal w orm in the long term. > > For grounding studs I have seen bright zinc plated bolts used with the pri mer removed from the structure they were inserted into. To make it clear wha t they are the paint finish was restored with a contrasting colour (blue in t his case I'm thinking of against puke yellow primer), but leaving the nut ho lding the stud in unpainted for good electrical connection. > > Peter > > On 29/03/2013 02:57, Ed Holyoke wrote: >> With primer barriers, particularly on the aluminum. Most sheet stock in u se on kitplanes is alclad and doesn't generally need primer. All extruded an gle and bar stock is not clad and needs to be primed to prevent corrosion. M any folks prime all faying surfaces (where two pieces fit together) and it s hould certainly be done at dissimilar metal joints. >> >> Ed Holyoke >> >> On 3/27/2013 11:16 PM, B Tomm wrote: >>> >>> How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets to alum inum sheet and angle stock play nice together? >>> >>> Bevan >>> >>> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroele ctric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed Holyoke >>> Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:35 PM >>> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? >>> >>> Stainless and aluminum don't play nice together. The aluminum will donat e ions and corrode. Cad plated steel is the AN way. The cadmium is more anod ic than the aluminum and acts as a sacrificial barrier. Eventually, it has n o more ions to donate and loses it's value as a corrosion preventative. Time then for new hardware. Another approach would be to prime your hardware and install it wet. >>> >>> Ed Holyoke >>> >>> On 3/26/2013 7:25 AM, Jay Hyde wrote: >>>> >>>> Hello Sacha, >>>> I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural parts I si mply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel ones to protec t against corrosion. Stainless steel and aluminium have relatively close ga lvanic potentials as far as I can see. I have given up trying to source, or even understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts. J >>>> For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they are not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a tap or die=81c) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US. >>>> Johannesburg Jay >>>> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroel ectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sacha >>>> Sent: 26 March 2013 03:58 PM >>>> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >>>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? >>>> Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and wh ere I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary. I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some but can only find a few manufacturers, no thing for the retail buyer. >>>> >>>> On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj wrote: >>>> >>>> Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be sure the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big assortment of small AN sc rews. If I could have gotten an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have pref ered it. Definitely preferable to Phillips. >>>> >>>> Raymond Julian >>>> Kettle River, MN. >>>> >>>> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, >>>> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine >>>> On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote: mcast.net> >>>> >>>> Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx drive, much ni cer for avoiding stripouts like phillips >>>> Bill Schertz >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider >>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41 AM >>>> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >>>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? >>>> net> >>>> >>>> Ray checkout http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm >>>> >>>> I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws >>>> >>>> Cheers Werner >>>> >>>> On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote: >>>> >>>> Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head bolts because I >>>> prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >>>> http://forums.matronics.com >>>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>> >>> >>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www .matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ c > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:19:44 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? Good Morning Ed, Care to comment as to how well Anodizing works? I Anodize all small parts before painting. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 3/28/2013 10:00:08 P.M. Central Daylight Time, bicyclop@pacbell.net writes: With primer barriers, particularly on the aluminum. Most sheet stock in use on kitplanes is alclad and doesn't generally need primer. All extruded angle and bar stock is not clad and needs to be primed to prevent corrosio n. Many folks prime all faying surfaces (where two pieces fit together) and i t should certainly be done at dissimilar metal joints. Ed Holyoke On 3/27/2013 11:16 PM, B Tomm wrote: How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets to aluminum sheet and angle stock play nice together? Bevan ____________________________________ From: _owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com_ (mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com) [_mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com_ (mailto:owner-aeroel ectric-list-server@matronics.com) ] On Behalf Of Ed Holyoke Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:35 PM (mailto:aeroelectric-list@matronics.com) Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? Stainless and aluminum don't play nice together. The aluminum will donate ions and corrode. Cad plated steel is the AN way. The cadmium is more anodic than the aluminum and acts as a sacrificial barrier. Eventually, it has no more ions to donate and loses it's value as a corrosion preventative. Time then for new hardware. Another approach would be to prime your hardwa re and install it wet. Ed Holyoke On 3/26/2013 7:25 AM, Jay Hyde wrote: Hello Sacha, I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural parts I simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel ones to pr otect against corrosion. Stainless steel and aluminium have relatively close galvanic potentials as far as I can see. I have given up trying to source , or even understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts. J For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they are not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a tap or die ) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US. Johannesburg Jay From: _owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com_ (mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com) [_mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com_ (mailto:owner-aeroel ectric-list-server@matronics.com) ] On Behalf Of Sacha Sent: 26 March 2013 03:58 PM (mailto:aeroelectric-list@matronics.com) Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and where I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary. I've been going nuts (no pu n intended) trying to look for some but can only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail buyer. On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj <_raymondj@frontiernet.net_ (mailto:raymondj@frontiernet.net) > wrote: Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be sure the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big assortment of small AN screws. If I could have gotten an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it. Definitely preferable to Phillips. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Schertz" __ (mailto:wschertz@comcast.net) Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips Bill Schertz -----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41 AM (mailto:aeroelectric-list@matronics.com) Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? __ (mailto:glastar@gmx.net) Ray checkout _http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm_ (http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm) I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws Cheers Werner On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote: Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head bolts because I prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads. _http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List_ (mip://09277f20/3D"http:/www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List) _http://forums.matronics.com_ (mip://09277f20/3D"http:/forums.matronics.com) _http://www.matronics.com/contribution_ (mip://09277f20/3D"http:/www.matronics.com/contribution) href=_"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List"_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List) >_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List) href=_"http://forums.matronics.com"_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) >_http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) href=_"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) >_http://www.matronics.com/c_ (http ://www.matronics.com/c) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:37:56 AM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? Good morning Bob, I think you are referring to using the chemical chromate Alodine process. Anodizing I believe requires equipment that most of us don't have. From Wikipedia "*Anodizing* (also spelled 'Anodising', particularly in the UK) is an electrolytic passivation process used to increase the thickness of the natural oxide layer on the surface of metal parts. The process is called "anodizing" because the part to be treated forms the anode electrode of an electrical circuit . " Kelly On 3/29/2013 6:18 AM, BobsV35B@aol.com wrote: > Good Morning Ed, > Care to comment as to how well Anodizing works? > I Anodize all small parts before painting. > Happy Skies, > Old Bob > In a message dated 3/28/2013 10:00:08 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > bicyclop@pacbell.net writes: > > With primer barriers, particularly on the aluminum. Most sheet > stock in use on kitplanes is alclad and doesn't generally need > primer. All extruded angle and bar stock is not clad and needs to > be primed to prevent corrosion. Many folks prime all faying > surfaces (where two pieces fit together) and it should certainly > be done at dissimilar metal joints. > > Ed Holyoke > > On 3/27/2013 11:16 PM, B Tomm wrote: >> How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets >> to aluminum sheet and angle stock play nice together? >> Bevan >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf >> Of *Ed Holyoke >> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:35 PM >> *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? >> >> Stainless and aluminum don't play nice together. The aluminum >> will donate ions and corrode. Cad plated steel is the AN way. The >> cadmium is more anodic than the aluminum and acts as a >> sacrificial barrier. Eventually, it has no more ions to donate >> and loses it's value as a corrosion preventative. Time then for >> new hardware. Another approach would be to prime your hardware >> and install it wet. >> >> Ed Holyoke >> >> On 3/26/2013 7:25 AM, Jay Hyde wrote: >>> >>> Hello Sacha, >>> >>> I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural >>> parts I simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually >>> stainless steel ones to protect against corrosion. Stainless >>> steel and aluminium have relatively close galvanic potentials as >>> far as I can see. I have given up trying to source, or even >>> understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far >>> easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and >>> M6 nuts. J >>> >>> For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they >>> are not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a >>> tap or die) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US. >>> >>> Johannesburg Jay >>> >>> *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf >>> Of *Sacha >>> *Sent:* 26 March 2013 03:58 PM >>> *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >>> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? >>> >>> Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is >>> and where I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere >>> in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary. >>> I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some >>> but can only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail >>> buyer. >>> >>> >>> On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj >> > wrote: >>> >>> Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be >>> sure the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering >>> a big assortment of small AN screws. If I could have gotten >>> an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it. >>> Definitely preferable to Phillips. >>> >>> Raymond Julian >>> >>> Kettle River, MN. >>> >>> >>> >>> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, >>> >>> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine >>> >>> On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote: >>> >>> Schertz" >>> >>> >>> Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx >>> drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips >>> Bill Schertz >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider >>> Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41 AM >>> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >>> >>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to >>> airframe? >>> >>> Schneider >>> >>> Ray checkout >>> http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm >>> >>> I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws >>> >>> Cheers Werner >>> >>> On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote: >>> >>> Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head >>> bolts because I >>> prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> * * >>> >>> * * >>> >>> * * >>> >>> * * >>> * * >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List * >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> *http://forums.matronics.com * >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution * >>> ** >>> * * >>> * >>> >>> >>> * >> * >> >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c >> * >> * >> >> >> * > > * > > ist href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com > p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > * > > * > > > * ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:51 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? The concerns for forestalling environmental effects on assembled parts and attach hardware are quite germane to our mission for doing the best we know how to do . . . so don't feel that this topic has run off into the weeds. At the same time, recall that making good electrical connection between a wire and some surface of the airframe is dependent on that ring of terminal material around the hole and the surface to which it comes in contact. Having the equivalent of hermetic or gas- tight contact in this critical area is where the magic happens for getting your electrons from point A to point B over the lifetime of the airplane. Gas tightness is a function of FORCE used to mate up and maintain the terminal's intimate contact with the airframe. The proper force may be secured with a variety of materials . . . materials that have to live with their surroundings too. But you can enjoy excellent electrical performance even if the screw is crusted with rust . . . as long as that 'magic donut' of contact is still good. Where the messiness of silicone grease migration can be tolerated, doping the mating surfaces of terminal and airplane with Dow Corning DC4 or equal goes to filling any voids in the final mate-up to the exclusion of moisture. These are separate but related issues, each with their own recipes for success. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:28:42 AM PST US From: DCS317@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: (no subject) Bob, You've "got plans to use about 100 feet of these strips in an overhaul of room and counter lighting in (your) kitchen." How about sharing the plans? How does the brightness compare to the thin tube 5 to 10 watt fluorescents and starters that I constantly have to replace? ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:15:04 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: (no subject) At 12:24 PM 3/29/2013, you wrote: >Bob, > >You've "got plans to > use about 100 feet of these strips in an overhaul > of room and counter lighting in (your) kitchen." > >How about sharing the plans? How does the brightness compare to the >thin tube 5 to 10 watt fluorescents and starters that I constantly >have to replace? I've already stuck a couple of strips on the underside of one cabinet to replace a single 12W tube lamp. Illumination is very nice. Light is nearly 'flat' i.e. shadow free. 40+ years ago, Dad put canister lamps for general lighting over the counters and an array of flourescent tubes for work lights. One strip of lamps is not enough but two side-by-side seem adequate. Sticking these strips up on the bottom of cabinets in straight lines and then wiring them up is problematic. I'm building twin-row strip lamps on pieces of Formica about 1.5" wide. Complete assemblies of pre-wired lamps on thin, rigid substrates will make installation MUCH easier. There are decorative features in the woodwork that minimizes direct visibility of the leds. I'm planning to replace the canister lamps with a similar process. There will be another array of accent lights to illuminate the ceiling over the cabinets. Hence, a whole bunch of LEDs! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:08:03 PM PST US From: Peter Pengilly Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? Bob, When I worked for Hawkers (that's the real Hawkers of Hurricane, Sea Fury, Hunter and Harrier fame) we anodized every aluminium part that wasn't clad, and then epoxy primed the lot with a 2 pack chromate primer. There is a very slight loss of ductility in the surface layers with anodizing, but most manufacturers take the view that that is a small price to pay for the long term prevention of corrosion. To answer an earlier question, for AB aircraft (that typically lead a fairly cosseted life) I think that any corrosion preventing primer will be much better than none at all - but I really am not looking to start primer wars here! Peter On 29/03/2013 13:18, BobsV35B@aol.com wrote: > Good Morning Ed, > Care to comment as to how well Anodizing works? > I Anodize all small parts before painting. > Happy Skies, > Old Bob > In a message dated 3/28/2013 10:00:08 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > bicyclop@pacbell.net writes: > > With primer barriers, particularly on the aluminum. Most sheet > stock in use on kitplanes is alclad and doesn't generally need > primer. All extruded angle and bar stock is not clad and needs to > be primed to prevent corrosion. Many folks prime all faying > surfaces (where two pieces fit together) and it should certainly > be done at dissimilar metal joints. > > Ed Holyoke > > On 3/27/2013 11:16 PM, B Tomm wrote: >> How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets >> to aluminum sheet and angle stock play nice together? >> Bevan >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf >> Of *Ed Holyoke >> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:35 PM >> *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? >> >> Stainless and aluminum don't play nice together. The aluminum >> will donate ions and corrode. Cad plated steel is the AN way. The >> cadmium is more anodic than the aluminum and acts as a >> sacrificial barrier. Eventually, it has no more ions to donate >> and loses it's value as a corrosion preventative. Time then for >> new hardware. Another approach would be to prime your hardware >> and install it wet. >> >> Ed Holyoke >> >> On 3/26/2013 7:25 AM, Jay Hyde wrote: >>> >>> Hello Sacha, >>> >>> I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural >>> parts I simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually >>> stainless steel ones to protect against corrosion. Stainless >>> steel and aluminium have relatively close galvanic potentials as >>> far as I can see. I have given up trying to source, or even >>> understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far >>> easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and >>> M6 nuts. J >>> >>> For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they >>> are not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a >>> tap or die) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US. >>> >>> Johannesburg Jay >>> >>> *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf >>> Of *Sacha >>> *Sent:* 26 March 2013 03:58 PM >>> *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >>> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? >>> >>> Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is >>> and where I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere >>> in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary. >>> I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some >>> but can only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail >>> buyer. >>> >>> >>> On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj >> > wrote: >>> >>> Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be >>> sure the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering >>> a big assortment of small AN screws. If I could have gotten >>> an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it. >>> Definitely preferable to Phillips. >>> >>> Raymond Julian >>> >>> Kettle River, MN. >>> >>> >>> >>> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, >>> >>> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine >>> >>> On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote: >>> >>> Schertz" >>> >>> >>> Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx >>> drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips >>> Bill Schertz >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider >>> Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41 AM >>> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >>> >>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to >>> airframe? >>> >>> Schneider >>> >>> Ray checkout >>> http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm >>> >>> I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws >>> >>> Cheers Werner >>> >>> On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote: >>> >>> Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head >>> bolts because I >>> prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> * * >>> >>> * * >>> >>> * * >>> >>> * * >>> * * >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List * >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> *http://forums.matronics.com * >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution * >>> ** >>> * * >>> * >>> >>> >>> * >> * >> >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c >> * >> * >> >> >> * > > * > > ist href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com > p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > * > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:16:40 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? Good Afternoon Kelly, As Usual you are correct. My lack of education is showing again. Thanks for the correction. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 3/29/2013 9:40:19 A.M. Central Daylight Time, kellym@aviating.com writes: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen Good morning Bob, I think you are referring to using the chemical chromate Alodine process. Anodizing I believe requires equipment that most of us don't have .. >From Wikipedia "*Anodizing* (also spelled 'Anodising', particularly in the UK) is an electrolytic passivation process used to increase the thickness of the natural oxide layer on the surface of metal parts. The process is called "anodizing" because the part to be treated forms the anode electrode of an electrical circuit . " Kelly On 3/29/2013 6:18 AM, BobsV35B@aol.com wrote: > Good Morning Ed, > Care to comment as to how well Anodizing works? > I Anodize all small parts before painting. > Happy Skies, > Old Bob > In a message dated 3/28/2013 10:00:08 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > bicyclop@pacbell.net writes: > > With primer barriers, particularly on the aluminum. Most sheet > stock in use on kitplanes is alclad and doesn't generally need > primer. All extruded angle and bar stock is not clad and needs to > be primed to prevent corrosion. Many folks prime all faying > surfaces (where two pieces fit together) and it should certainly > be done at dissimilar metal joints. > > Ed Holyoke > > On 3/27/2013 11:16 PM, B Tomm wrote: >> How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets >> to aluminum sheet and angle stock play nice together? >> Bevan >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf >> Of *Ed Holyoke >> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:35 PM >> *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? >> >> Stainless and aluminum don't play nice together. The aluminum >> will donate ions and corrode. Cad plated steel is the AN way. The >> cadmium is more anodic than the aluminum and acts as a >> sacrificial barrier. Eventually, it has no more ions to donate >> and loses it's value as a corrosion preventative. Time then for >> new hardware. Another approach would be to prime your hardware >> and install it wet. >> >> Ed Holyoke >> >> On 3/26/2013 7:25 AM, Jay Hyde wrote: >>> >>> Hello Sacha, >>> >>> I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural >>> parts I simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually >>> stainless steel ones to protect against corrosion. Stainless >>> steel and aluminium have relatively close galvanic potentials as >>> far as I can see. I have given up trying to source, or even >>> understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far >>> easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and >>> M6 nuts. J >>> >>> For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they >>> are not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a >>> tap or die) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US. >>> >>> Johannesburg Jay >>> >>> *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf >>> Of *Sacha >>> *Sent:* 26 March 2013 03:58 PM >>> *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >>> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? >>> >>> Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is >>> and where I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere >>> in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary. >>> I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some >>> but can only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail >>> buyer. >>> >>> >>> On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj >> > wrote: >>> >>> Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be >>> sure the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering >>> a big assortment of small AN screws. If I could have gotten >>> an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it. >>> Definitely preferable to Phillips. >>> >>> Raymond Julian >>> >>> Kettle River, MN. >>> >>> >>> >>> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, >>> >>> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine >>> >>> On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote: >>> >>> Schertz" >>> >>> >>> Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx >>> drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips >>> Bill Schertz >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider >>> Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41 AM >>> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >>> >>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to >>> airframe? >>> >>> Schneider >>> >>> Ray checkout >>> http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm >>> >>> I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws >>> >>> Cheers Werner >>> >>> On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote: >>> >>> Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head >>> bolts because I >>> prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> * * >>> >>> * * >>> >>> * * >>> >>> * * >>> * * >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List * >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> *http://forums.matronics.com * >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution * >>> ** >>> * * >>> * >>> >>> >>> * >> * >> >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.ma tronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c >> * >> * >> >> >> * > > * > > ist href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.ma tronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com > p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > * > > * > > > * ----- No virus found in this message. 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