Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:34 AM - Re: Can Antenna problems damage a com transmitter? (user9253)
2. 06:17 AM - Failed contactor (R. curtis)
3. 07:00 AM - Dolphin Electrical Wire Connectors (Owen Baker)
4. 09:18 AM - Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? (Ed Holyoke)
5. 09:29 AM - Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? (Ed Holyoke)
6. 10:34 AM - Corrosion prevention was Blind riveting ground to airframe? (Ed Holyoke)
7. 10:49 AM - Re: Failed contactor (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 12:28 PM - Re: Corrosion prevention was Blind riveting ground to ai... (BobsV35B@aol.com)
9. 01:53 PM - Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? (Peter Pengilly)
10. 03:03 PM - Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? (Sacha)
11. 11:02 PM - Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
12. 11:04 PM - Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Can Antenna problems damage a com transmitter? |
Thanks for the info, Bob.
I will proceed with caution.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397516#397516
Message 2
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| Subject: | Failed contactor |
Bob,
Just checking to see if you got the junk contactor?
Roger
--
Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen
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| Subject: | Dolphin Electrical Wire Connectors |
4/1/2013
Hello Bob Nuckolls, It has been suggested that I use these Dolphin
DC-100- P or -S insulation piercing type electrical wire connectors for
low amperage wire connection usage, such as a Ray Allen trim servo, in
my experimental amateur built airplane:
http://dolphincomponents.com/catalogs/Section%20A%20-%20Super%20B%20stand
ard-3207.pdf
What do you think? Thank you.
Owen C. Baker
PS: This is not intended as an April Fools Day joke.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
Howdy Peter,
Right you are. Alclad isn't perfect, but for most of us it will be good
enough. Here in California and hangared there really isn't a lot of
concern about corrosion. This will not be true everywhere and in all
conditions. That said, how many of our homebuilt airplanes will be
flying in fifty years? For many of us the aircraft will likely outlive
us whether or not we prime everything and if we spend so much time
obsessing about the future life of the aircraft that it doesn't get
finished until our medicals are no longer renewable..... Well, you get
the picture. Gotta balance serviceability and utility with getting done
in time to fly it.
Another factor is of course weight. Priming everything could add say
five pounds, maybe more. Doesn't seem like much but it tends to add up.
Folks really like the deep shine of a base/clear coat paint job and
those tend to be ten or more pounds heavier than single stage to color.
Can't really see the difference from ten feet, let alone a thousand.
Some of us pad the whole interior with leather and/or carpet. Looks
great and reminds of of a luxury car but doesn't improve the way the
airplane flies.
The great thing about homebuilding is that you can choose what you want
in a way that certificated aircraft will never do. Maybe you've got
grandkids who will keep the airplane flying a long time and would
appreciate having everything primed. If you want to load the panel with
every possible goodie and don't care about the weight, hey - it's your
airplane. I'm looking to keep it light while being maintainable. I doubt
that the alclad skins will show any sign of corrosion in my lifetime and
then there's always CorrosionX.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/29/2013 2:19 AM, Peter Pengilly wrote:
> Ed,
>
> Drifting somewhat from the theme of this list, but to say that alclad
> doesn't need priming is a bold statement. In Texas maybe, but in a
> cool maritime climate it isn't really adequate protection against the
> dreaded metal worm in the long term.
>
> For grounding studs I have seen bright zinc plated bolts used with the
> primer removed from the structure they were inserted into. To make it
> clear what they are the paint finish was restored with a contrasting
> colour (blue in this case I'm thinking of against puke yellow primer),
> but leaving the nut holding the stud in unpainted for good electrical
> connection.
>
> Peter
>
> On 29/03/2013 02:57, Ed Holyoke wrote:
>> With primer barriers, particularly on the aluminum. Most sheet stock
>> in use on kitplanes is alclad and doesn't generally need primer. All
>> extruded angle and bar stock is not clad and needs to be primed to
>> prevent corrosion. Many folks prime all faying surfaces (where two
>> pieces fit together) and it should certainly be done at dissimilar
>> metal joints.
>>
>> Ed Holyoke
>>
>> On 3/27/2013 11:16 PM, B Tomm wrote:
>>> How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets to
>>> aluminum sheet and angle stock play nice together?
>>> Bevan
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
>>> *Ed Holyoke
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:35 PM
>>> *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
>>>
>>> Stainless and aluminum don't play nice together. The aluminum will
>>> donate ions and corrode. Cad plated steel is the AN way. The cadmium
>>> is more anodic than the aluminum and acts as a sacrificial barrier.
>>> Eventually, it has no more ions to donate and loses it's value as a
>>> corrosion preventative. Time then for new hardware. Another approach
>>> would be to prime your hardware and install it wet.
>>>
>>> Ed Holyoke
>>>
>>> On 3/26/2013 7:25 AM, Jay Hyde wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hello Sacha,
>>>>
>>>> I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural parts
>>>> I simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel
>>>> ones to protect against corrosion. Stainless steel and aluminium
>>>> have relatively close galvanic potentials as far as I can see. I
>>>> have given up trying to source, or even understand (!) the imperial
>>>> nut and bolt thread system; its far easier to walk into a bolt
>>>> store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts. J
>>>>
>>>> For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they are
>>>> not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a tap or
>>>> die...) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US.
>>>>
>>>> Johannesburg Jay
>>>>
>>>> *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>>>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
>>>> *Sacha
>>>> *Sent:* 26 March 2013 03:58 PM
>>>> *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>>>> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is
>>>> and where I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in
>>>> Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary. I've
>>>> been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some but can
>>>> only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail buyer.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj <raymondj@frontiernet.net
>>>> <mailto:raymondj@frontiernet.net>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be sure
>>>> the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big
>>>> assortment of small AN screws. If I could have gotten an stuff
>>>> with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it. Definitely
>>>> preferable to Phillips.
>>>>
>>>> Raymond Julian
>>>>
>>>> Kettle River, MN.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
>>>>
>>>> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
>>>>
>>>> On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <wschertz@comcast.net> <mailto:wschertz@comcast.net>
>>>>
>>>> Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx
>>>> drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips
>>>> Bill Schertz
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41 AM
>>>> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>>>> <mailto:aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to
>>>> airframe?
>>>>
>>>> <glastar@gmx.net> <mailto:glastar@gmx.net>
>>>>
>>>> Ray checkout
>>>> http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm
>>>>
>>>> I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws
>>>>
>>>> Cheers Werner
>>>>
>>>> On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head bolts
>>>> because I
>>>> prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> * *
>>>>
>>>> * *
>>>>
>>>> * *
>>>>
>>>> * *
>>>> * *
>>>> **
>>>> **
>>>> **
>>>> **
>>>> **
>>>> **
>>>> **
>>>> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List <3D%22http:/www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>*
>>>> **
>>>> **
>>>> **
>>>> **
>>>> **
>>>> *http://forums.matronics.com <3D%22http:/forums.matronics.com>*
>>>> **
>>>> **
>>>> **
>>>> **
>>>> **
>>>> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution <3D%22http:/www.matronics.com/contribution>*
>>>> **
>>>> * *
>>>> *
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *
>>> *
>>>
>>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>>> *
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>> *
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
Epoxy primer is the gold standard. It's also sort of a pain to mix,
spray, and clean up after. For long term between dissimilar metals,
probably worth doing. For little parts when I don't want to go through
all the trouble, I've been using self etching primer in the rattle can.
Rustoleum brand is available at Lowe's and HD. It's dark green. Looks a
bit like the old zinc chromate only it doesn't clog the nozzle up like
that stuff always did.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/29/2013 6:18 AM, Sacha wrote:
> Will any old primer do or are there products that work better than
> others on certain materials (I'm thinking Al and Stainless in
> particular since my Cromoly frame is already primed.
>
> On Mar 29, 2013, at 10:19, Peter Pengilly <peter@sportingaero.com
> <mailto:peter@sportingaero.com>> wrote:
>
>> Ed,
>>
>> Drifting somewhat from the theme of this list, but to say that alclad
>> doesn't need priming is a bold statement. In Texas maybe, but in a
>> cool maritime climate it isn't really adequate protection against the
>> dreaded metal worm in the long term.
>>
>> For grounding studs I have seen bright zinc plated bolts used with
>> the primer removed from the structure they were inserted into. To
>> make it clear what they are the paint finish was restored with a
>> contrasting colour (blue in this case I'm thinking of against puke
>> yellow primer), but leaving the nut holding the stud in unpainted for
>> good electrical connection.
>>
>> Peter
>>
>> On 29/03/2013 02:57, Ed Holyoke wrote:
>>> With primer barriers, particularly on the aluminum. Most sheet stock
>>> in use on kitplanes is alclad and doesn't generally need primer. All
>>> extruded angle and bar stock is not clad and needs to be primed to
>>> prevent corrosion. Many folks prime all faying surfaces (where two
>>> pieces fit together) and it should certainly be done at dissimilar
>>> metal joints.
>>>
>>> Ed Holyoke
>>>
>>> On 3/27/2013 11:16 PM, B Tomm wrote:
>>>> How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets to
>>>> aluminum sheet and angle stock play nice together?
>>>> Bevan
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>>>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
>>>> *Ed Holyoke
>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:35 PM
>>>> *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>>>> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
>>>>
>>>> Stainless and aluminum don't play nice together. The aluminum will
>>>> donate ions and corrode. Cad plated steel is the AN way. The
>>>> cadmium is more anodic than the aluminum and acts as a sacrificial
>>>> barrier. Eventually, it has no more ions to donate and loses it's
>>>> value as a corrosion preventative. Time then for new hardware.
>>>> Another approach would be to prime your hardware and install it wet.
>>>>
>>>> Ed Holyoke
>>>>
>>>> On 3/26/2013 7:25 AM, Jay Hyde wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello Sacha,
>>>>>
>>>>> I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural parts
>>>>> I simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel
>>>>> ones to protect against corrosion. Stainless steel and aluminium
>>>>> have relatively close galvanic potentials as far as I can see. I
>>>>> have given up trying to source, or even understand (!) the
>>>>> imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far easier to walk into a
>>>>> bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts. J
>>>>>
>>>>> For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they
>>>>> are not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a
>>>>> tap or die) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US.
>>>>>
>>>>> Johannesburg Jay
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>>>>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf
>>>>> Of *Sacha
>>>>> *Sent:* 26 March 2013 03:58 PM
>>>>> *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
>>>>>
>>>>> Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is
>>>>> and where I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere
>>>>> in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary.
>>>>> I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some but
>>>>> can only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail buyer.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj <raymondj@frontiernet.net
>>>>> <mailto:raymondj@frontiernet.net>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be sure
>>>>> the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big
>>>>> assortment of small AN screws. If I could have gotten an
>>>>> stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it.
>>>>> Definitely preferable to Phillips.
>>>>>
>>>>> Raymond Julian
>>>>>
>>>>> Kettle River, MN.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
>>>>>
>>>>> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
>>>>>
>>>>> On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> <wschertz@comcast.net> <mailto:wschertz@comcast.net>
>>>>>
>>>>> Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx
>>>>> drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips
>>>>> Bill Schertz
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41 AM
>>>>> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>>>>> <mailto:aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to
>>>>> airframe?
>>>>>
>>>>> <glastar@gmx.net> <mailto:glastar@gmx.net>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ray checkout
>>>>> http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm
>>>>>
>>>>> I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers Werner
>>>>>
>>>>> On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head
>>>>> bolts because I
>>>>> prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> * *
>>>>>
>>>>> * *
>>>>>
>>>>> * *
>>>>>
>>>>> * *
>>>>> * *
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List <3D%22http:/www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>*
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> *http://forums.matronics.com <3D%22http:/forums.matronics.com>*
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution <3D%22http:/www.matronics.com/contribution>*
>>>>> **
>>>>> * *
>>>>> *
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *
>>>> *
>>>>
>>>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>>>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>>>> *
>>>> *
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>> *
>>
>> *
>>
>> ==================================
>> st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>> ==================================
>> cs.com
>> ==================================
>> matronics.com/contribution
>> ==================================
>>
>> *
> *
>
>
> *
Message 6
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| Subject: | Corrosion prevention was Blind riveting ground to |
airframe?
Howdy Bob,
I think you're referring to alodine which is a conversion coating. The
proper (by the book) way to prep aluminum for paint is to wet scrub it
with alumaprep and scotchbrite, rinse thoroughly, and soak it in alodine
until it starts to get that golden color and rinse again. Then it should
be primed as soon as it is completely dry. The alumaprep cleans the
surface. The alodine corrodes the surface layer (a few atoms deep) so
that a barrier to further corrosion is created and provides a bit of
"tooth" for the primer to follow. A problem with this process on
completed structures is the difficulty of getting the phosphoric acid
based alumaprep and alodine rinsed out from between riveted structures
and every little nook and cranny. It especially tends to rear its ugly
head on repaints and will later show up as filoform corrosion under the
paint around rivet heads and lap joints.
I did it this way for much of my early build and used the solvent base
Akzo epoxy primer that you can't get anymore. It would be an interesting
experiment to compare the areas that I did that way to the stuff that
I've just wiped with acetone and sprayed with self etching primer in
twenty or thirty years.
Alodined aluminum without primer will probably perform about like alclad
since both processes work by creating a very thin layer of aluminum
oxide on the surface as a barrier to more damaging corrosive processes.
As a prep process for paint, it used to be the only real way to get
primers to grab onto aluminum. This was before epoxy primers. The
instructions for these are now mostly about cleaning and sanding the
surface before application. Completely cured epoxy primer is extremely
tough and very difficult to remove which makes it a good long term
undercoating for paint. By the way, the wash primer that Van's sprays
quickbuild kits with is a form of self etching primer and is a lousy
moisture barrier. It is intended to be painted over within hours, not
left to stand on it's own.
Corrosion only occurs in the presence of an electrolyte, usually
moisture contaminated with dirt, dust, and whatever airborne acids are
around. The whole purpose of any of the available treatments to prevent
or stop the spread of corrosion is to exclude air and the moisture it
contains from the vulnerable metal. The barrier can be a few molecules
thick or a nice coat of paint over well adhered primer. The latter is
obviously more robust and less susceptible to tiny breaches. Another
approach is to spray the interior with CorrosionX or equivalent every
few years (after painting the aircraft please - it weeps from between
joints for a long time).
Between joints is the hardest area to protect and that's why I recommend
that if you're going to prime any aluminum, faying surfaces and
extrusions are the best places to spend your energy. All steel, except
for stainless, must be primed and painted in any case. Powder coating
works well on steel, too.
Pax,
Ed Holyoke
On 3/29/2013 6:18 AM, BobsV35B@aol.com wrote:
> Good Morning Ed,
> Care to comment as to how well Anodizing works?
> I Anodize all small parts before painting.
> Happy Skies,
> Old Bob
> In a message dated 3/28/2013 10:00:08 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> bicyclop@pacbell.net writes:
>
> With primer barriers, particularly on the aluminum. Most sheet
> stock in use on kitplanes is alclad and doesn't generally need
> primer. All extruded angle and bar stock is not clad and needs to
> be primed to prevent corrosion. Many folks prime all faying
> surfaces (where two pieces fit together) and it should certainly
> be done at dissimilar metal joints.
>
> Ed Holyoke
>
> On 3/27/2013 11:16 PM, B Tomm wrote:
>> How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets
>> to aluminum sheet and angle stock play nice together?
>> Bevan
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf
>> Of *Ed Holyoke
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:35 PM
>> *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
>>
>> Stainless and aluminum don't play nice together. The aluminum
>> will donate ions and corrode. Cad plated steel is the AN way. The
>> cadmium is more anodic than the aluminum and acts as a
>> sacrificial barrier. Eventually, it has no more ions to donate
>> and loses it's value as a corrosion preventative. Time then for
>> new hardware. Another approach would be to prime your hardware
>> and install it wet.
>>
>> Ed Holyoke
>>
>> On 3/26/2013 7:25 AM, Jay Hyde wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello Sacha,
>>>
>>> I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural
>>> parts I simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually
>>> stainless steel ones to protect against corrosion. Stainless
>>> steel and aluminium have relatively close galvanic potentials as
>>> far as I can see. I have given up trying to source, or even
>>> understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far
>>> easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and
>>> M6 nuts. J
>>>
>>> For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they
>>> are not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a
>>> tap or die) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US.
>>>
>>> Johannesburg Jay
>>>
>>> *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf
>>> Of *Sacha
>>> *Sent:* 26 March 2013 03:58 PM
>>> *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
>>>
>>> Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is
>>> and where I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere
>>> in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary.
>>> I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some
>>> but can only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail
>>> buyer.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj <raymondj@frontiernet.net
>>> <mailto:raymondj@frontiernet.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be
>>> sure the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering
>>> a big assortment of small AN screws. If I could have gotten
>>> an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it.
>>> Definitely preferable to Phillips.
>>>
>>> Raymond Julian
>>>
>>> Kettle River, MN.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
>>>
>>> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
>>>
>>> On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:
>>>
>>> Schertz" <wschertz@comcast.net>
>>> <mailto:wschertz@comcast.net>
>>>
>>> Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx
>>> drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips
>>> Bill Schertz
>>>
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider
>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41 AM
>>> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>>> <mailto:aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
>>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to
>>> airframe?
>>>
>>> Schneider <glastar@gmx.net> <mailto:glastar@gmx.net>
>>>
>>> Ray checkout
>>> http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm
>>>
>>> I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws
>>>
>>> Cheers Werner
>>>
>>> On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote:
>>>
>>> Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head
>>> bolts because I
>>> prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> * *
>>>
>>> * *
>>>
>>> * *
>>>
>>> * *
>>> * *
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List <mip://09277f20/3D%22http:/www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>*
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> *http://forums.matronics.com <mip://09277f20/3D%22http:/forums.matronics.com>*
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution <mip://09277f20/3D%22http:/www.matronics.com/contribution>*
>>> **
>>> * *
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>> *
>> *
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>> *
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
> *
>
> ist href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
> p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> *
>
> *
>
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> *
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Failed contactor |
At 08:16 AM 4/1/2013, you wrote:
><mrspudandcompany@verizon.net>
>
>Bob,
>
>Just checking to see if you got the junk contactor?
Yes I did. Thank! Haven't had time to open it up
yet.
Bob . . .
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Corrosion prevention was Blind riveting ground |
to ai...
Good Afternoon Ed,
Thanks for the message!
Obviously, I was thinking Alodine and wrote Anodize!
Alumaprep and Alodine is just what I use. And that is only on parts BEFORE
they are assembled.
I also have the high pressure, fine mist, fogger recommended by Corrosion
X.
Gotta keep those molecules from heading back to dust!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 4/1/2013 12:36:20 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
bicyclop@pacbell.net writes:
Howdy Bob,
I think you're referring to alodine which is a conversion coating. The
proper (by the book) way to prep aluminum for paint is to wet scrub it with
alumaprep and scotchbrite, rinse thoroughly, and soak it in alodine until it
starts to get that golden color and rinse again. Then it should be primed
as soon as it is completely dry. The alumaprep cleans the surface. The
alodine corrodes the surface layer (a few atoms deep) so that a barrier to
further corrosion is created and provides a bit of "tooth" for the primer to
follow. A problem with this process on completed structures is the difficulty
of getting the phosphoric acid based alumaprep and alodine rinsed out from
between riveted structures and every little nook and cranny. It especially
tends to rear its ugly head on repaints and will later show up as filoform
corrosion under the paint around rivet heads and lap joints.
I did it this way for much of my early build and used the solvent base
Akzo epoxy primer that you can't get anymore. It would be an interesting
experiment to compare the areas that I did that way to the stuff that I've just
wiped with acetone and sprayed with self etching primer in twenty or thirty
years.
Alodined aluminum without primer will probably perform about like alclad
since both processes work by creating a very thin layer of aluminum oxide on
the surface as a barrier to more damaging corrosive processes. As a prep
process for paint, it used to be the only real way to get primers to grab
onto aluminum. This was before epoxy primers. The instructions for these are
now mostly about cleaning and sanding the surface before application.
Completely cured epoxy primer is extremely tough and very difficult to remove
which makes it a good long term undercoating for paint. By the way, the wash
primer that Van's sprays quickbuild kits with is a form of self etching
primer and is a lousy moisture barrier. It is intended to be painted over
within hours, not left to stand on it's own.
Corrosion only occurs in the presence of an electrolyte, usually moisture
contaminated with dirt, dust, and whatever airborne acids are around. The
whole purpose of any of the available treatments to prevent or stop the
spread of corrosion is to exclude air and the moisture it contains from the
vulnerable metal. The barrier can be a few molecules thick or a nice coat of
paint over well adhered primer. The latter is obviously more robust and less
susceptible to tiny breaches. Another approach is to spray the interior
with CorrosionX or equivalent every few years (after painting the aircraft
please - it weeps from between joints for a long time).
Between joints is the hardest area to protect and that's why I recommend
that if you're going to prime any aluminum, faying surfaces and extrusions
are the best places to spend your energy. All steel, except for stainless,
must be primed and painted in any case. Powder coating works well on steel,
too.
Pax,
Ed Holyoke
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
Hi Ed,
I agree with most of what you say. I'm in England, there is nowhere here
that is > 50 miles from the sea, and for a lot of the year it is damp
and not very warm. Quickbuild RVs suffer corrosion inside their wings
here and need to be treated with CorrosionX or ACF50 after painting.
There aren't many old C150s or Cherokees either as most of them have
rotted away! So priming is definitely required to protect your
investment ... It takes quite a bit longer, uses nasty chemicals, weighs
more and I hate all the prep and spraying, but there isn't really an
option in this climate.
Peter
On 01/04/2013 17:17, Ed Holyoke wrote:
> Howdy Peter,
>
> Right you are. Alclad isn't perfect, but for most of us it will be
> good enough. Here in California and hangared there really isn't a lot
> of concern about corrosion. This will not be true everywhere and in
> all conditions. That said, how many of our homebuilt airplanes will be
> flying in fifty years? For many of us the aircraft will likely outlive
> us whether or not we prime everything and if we spend so much time
> obsessing about the future life of the aircraft that it doesn't get
> finished until our medicals are no longer renewable..... Well, you get
> the picture. Gotta balance serviceability and utility with getting
> done in time to fly it.
>
> Another factor is of course weight. Priming everything could add say
> five pounds, maybe more. Doesn't seem like much but it tends to add
> up. Folks really like the deep shine of a base/clear coat paint job
> and those tend to be ten or more pounds heavier than single stage to
> color. Can't really see the difference from ten feet, let alone a
> thousand. Some of us pad the whole interior with leather and/or
> carpet. Looks great and reminds of of a luxury car but doesn't improve
> the way the airplane flies.
>
> The great thing about homebuilding is that you can choose what you
> want in a way that certificated aircraft will never do. Maybe you've
> got grandkids who will keep the airplane flying a long time and would
> appreciate having everything primed. If you want to load the panel
> with every possible goodie and don't care about the weight, hey - it's
> your airplane. I'm looking to keep it light while being maintainable.
> I doubt that the alclad skins will show any sign of corrosion in my
> lifetime and then there's always CorrosionX.
>
> Ed Holyoke
>
> On 3/29/2013 2:19 AM, Peter Pengilly wrote:
>> Ed,
>>
>> Drifting somewhat from the theme of this list, but to say that alclad
>> doesn't need priming is a bold statement. In Texas maybe, but in a
>> cool maritime climate it isn't really adequate protection against the
>> dreaded metal worm in the long term.
>>
>> For grounding studs I have seen bright zinc plated bolts used with
>> the primer removed from the structure they were inserted into. To
>> make it clear what they are the paint finish was restored with a
>> contrasting colour (blue in this case I'm thinking of against puke
>> yellow primer), but leaving the nut holding the stud in unpainted for
>> good electrical connection.
>>
>> Peter
>>
>> On 29/03/2013 02:57, Ed Holyoke wrote:
>>> With primer barriers, particularly on the aluminum. Most sheet stock
>>> in use on kitplanes is alclad and doesn't generally need primer. All
>>> extruded angle and bar stock is not clad and needs to be primed to
>>> prevent corrosion. Many folks prime all faying surfaces (where two
>>> pieces fit together) and it should certainly be done at dissimilar
>>> metal joints.
>>>
>>> Ed Holyoke
>>>
>>> On 3/27/2013 11:16 PM, B Tomm wrote:
>>>> How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets to
>>>> aluminum sheet and angle stock play nice together?
>>>> Bevan
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>>>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
>>>> *Ed Holyoke
>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:35 PM
>>>> *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>>>> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
>>>>
>>>> Stainless and aluminum don't play nice together. The aluminum will
>>>> donate ions and corrode. Cad plated steel is the AN way. The
>>>> cadmium is more anodic than the aluminum and acts as a sacrificial
>>>> barrier. Eventually, it has no more ions to donate and loses it's
>>>> value as a corrosion preventative. Time then for new hardware.
>>>> Another approach would be to prime your hardware and install it wet.
>>>>
>>>> Ed Holyoke
>>>>
>>>> On 3/26/2013 7:25 AM, Jay Hyde wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello Sacha,
>>>>>
>>>>> I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural parts
>>>>> I simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel
>>>>> ones to protect against corrosion. Stainless steel and aluminium
>>>>> have relatively close galvanic potentials as far as I can see. I
>>>>> have given up trying to source, or even understand (!) the
>>>>> imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far easier to walk into a
>>>>> bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts. J
>>>>>
>>>>> For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they
>>>>> are not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a
>>>>> tap or die...) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US.
>>>>>
>>>>> Johannesburg Jay
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>>>>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf
>>>>> Of *Sacha
>>>>> *Sent:* 26 March 2013 03:58 PM
>>>>> *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
>>>>>
>>>>> Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is
>>>>> and where I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere
>>>>> in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary.
>>>>> I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some but
>>>>> can only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail buyer.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj <raymondj@frontiernet.net
>>>>> <mailto:raymondj@frontiernet.net>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be sure
>>>>> the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big
>>>>> assortment of small AN screws. If I could have gotten an stuff
>>>>> with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it. Definitely
>>>>> preferable to Phillips.
>>>>>
>>>>> Raymond Julian
>>>>>
>>>>> Kettle River, MN.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
>>>>>
>>>>> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
>>>>>
>>>>> On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> <wschertz@comcast.net> <mailto:wschertz@comcast.net>
>>>>>
>>>>> Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx
>>>>> drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips
>>>>> Bill Schertz
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41 AM
>>>>> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>>>>> <mailto:aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to
>>>>> airframe?
>>>>>
>>>>> <glastar@gmx.net> <mailto:glastar@gmx.net>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ray checkout
>>>>> http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm
>>>>>
>>>>> I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers Werner
>>>>>
>>>>> On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head
>>>>> bolts because I
>>>>> prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> * *
>>>>>
>>>>> * *
>>>>>
>>>>> * *
>>>>>
>>>>> * *
>>>>> * *
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List <3D%22http:/www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>*
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> *http://forums.matronics.com <3D%22http:/forums.matronics.com>*
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution <3D%22http:/www.matronics.com/contribution>*
>>>>> **
>>>>> * *
>>>>> *
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *
>>>> *
>>>>
>>>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>>>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>>>> *
>>>> *
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>> *
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
> *
>
>
> *
Message 10
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| Subject: | Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
Same here. Sicily is not as damp as England, but my hangar is only 100m
from the sea. If I leave a screwdriver out of its' box it will rust in a
couple of weeks!
Thanks Ed for the tips
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter
Pengilly
Sent: Monday, 01 April, 2013 21:42
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Hi Ed,
I agree with most of what you say. I'm in England, there is nowhere here
that is > 50 miles from the sea, and for a lot of the year it is damp and
not very warm. Quickbuild RVs suffer corrosion inside their wings here and
need to be treated with CorrosionX or ACF50 after painting. There aren't
many old C150s or Cherokees either as most of them have rotted away! So
priming is definitely required to protect your investment ... It takes quite
a bit longer, uses nasty chemicals, weighs more and I hate all the prep and
spraying, but there isn't really an option in this climate.
Peter
On 01/04/2013 17:17, Ed Holyoke wrote:
Howdy Peter,
Right you are. Alclad isn't perfect, but for most of us it will be good
enough. Here in California and hangared there really isn't a lot of concern
about corrosion. This will not be true everywhere and in all conditions.
That said, how many of our homebuilt airplanes will be flying in fifty
years? For many of us the aircraft will likely outlive us whether or not we
prime everything and if we spend so much time obsessing about the future
life of the aircraft that it doesn't get finished until our medicals are no
longer renewable..... Well, you get the picture. Gotta balance
serviceability and utility with getting done in time to fly it.
Another factor is of course weight. Priming everything could add say five
pounds, maybe more. Doesn't seem like much but it tends to add up. Folks
really like the deep shine of a base/clear coat paint job and those tend to
be ten or more pounds heavier than single stage to color. Can't really see
the difference from ten feet, let alone a thousand. Some of us pad the whole
interior with leather and/or carpet. Looks great and reminds of of a luxury
car but doesn't improve the way the airplane flies.
The great thing about homebuilding is that you can choose what you want in a
way that certificated aircraft will never do. Maybe you've got grandkids who
will keep the airplane flying a long time and would appreciate having
everything primed. If you want to load the panel with every possible goodie
and don't care about the weight, hey - it's your airplane. I'm looking to
keep it light while being maintainable. I doubt that the alclad skins will
show any sign of corrosion in my lifetime and then there's always
CorrosionX.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/29/2013 2:19 AM, Peter Pengilly wrote:
Ed,
Drifting somewhat from the theme of this list, but to say that alclad
doesn't need priming is a bold statement. In Texas maybe, but in a cool
maritime climate it isn't really adequate protection against the dreaded
metal worm in the long term.
For grounding studs I have seen bright zinc plated bolts used with the
primer removed from the structure they were inserted into. To make it clear
what they are the paint finish was restored with a contrasting colour (blue
in this case I'm thinking of against puke yellow primer), but leaving the
nut holding the stud in unpainted for good electrical connection.
Peter
On 29/03/2013 02:57, Ed Holyoke wrote:
With primer barriers, particularly on the aluminum. Most sheet stock in use
on kitplanes is alclad and doesn't generally need primer. All extruded angle
and bar stock is not clad and needs to be primed to prevent corrosion. Many
folks prime all faying surfaces (where two pieces fit together) and it
should certainly be done at dissimilar metal joints.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/27/2013 11:16 PM, B Tomm wrote:
How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets to aluminum
sheet and angle stock play nice together?
Bevan
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed
Holyoke
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Stainless and aluminum don't play nice together. The aluminum will donate
ions and corrode. Cad plated steel is the AN way. The cadmium is more anodic
than the aluminum and acts as a sacrificial barrier. Eventually, it has no
more ions to donate and loses it's value as a corrosion preventative. Time
then for new hardware. Another approach would be to prime your hardware and
install it wet.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/26/2013 7:25 AM, Jay Hyde wrote:
Hello Sacha,
I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural parts I simply
use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel ones to protect
against corrosion. Stainless steel and aluminium have relatively close
galvanic potentials as far as I can see. I have given up trying to source,
or even understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far
easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts. J
For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they are not too
difficult to understand (unless you need to order a tap or die.) ; I order
them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US.
Johannesburg Jay
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sacha
Sent: 26 March 2013 03:58 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and where I
can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in Europe, though I'm
willing to order from the US if necessary. I've been going nuts (no pun
intended) trying to look for some but can only find a few manufacturers,
nothing for the retail buyer.
On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj <raymondj@frontiernet.net> wrote:
Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be sure the ones I
chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big assortment of small AN
screws. If I could have gotten an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have
prefered it. Definitely preferable to Phillips.
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:
<mailto:wschertz@comcast.net> <wschertz@comcast.net>
Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx drive, much nicer
for avoiding stripouts like phillips
Bill Schertz
-----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
<mailto:glastar@gmx.net> <glastar@gmx.net>
Ray checkout http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm
I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws
Cheers Werner
On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote:
Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head bolts because I
prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href= <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href= <http://forums.matronics.com>
"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href= <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
"http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 11
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| Subject: | Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) |
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The
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are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the
content of enclosures.
These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics
Lists:
1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists.
2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists.
3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site.
4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives.
5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature.
6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed:
bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls
All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to
sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from
a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk.
7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting
to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down
the process of posting the message !!
Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules
could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists.
1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files
you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there
are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post
30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these
folks and the rest of us, for that matter.
2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000
pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just
unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture
down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the
file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less.
Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows
you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically
scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it!
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx
Look for the link "Image Resizer"
3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not
post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother.
And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even
questionable. !!
4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members
subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting
to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and
BE COURTEOUS!
Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where
you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server
for long time viewing and availability.
*******************
*** Digest Mode ***
*******************
Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started.
This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended
to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:"
and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting
of a line of underscores.
Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be
combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list.
To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form
described above, and just select the Digest version of the List.
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions
of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable.
Now some caveats:
* Messages sent to "aeroelectric-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard
email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the
digest List.
* If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you
will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of
the day.
* If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the
normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change
the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please
*do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*.
****************************
*** List Digest Browser ***
****************************
An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text
or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to
the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found
at the following location:
http://www.matronics.com/digest
*****************************************
*** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag ***
*****************************************
At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very
small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive
it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the
message:
do not archive
Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List
email distribution as normal.
**********************************************
***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes *****
**********************************************
Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced
email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly
removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving
messages from the AeroElectric-List, go to the following Web page, and look
for your email address and a possible reason for your removal.
The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that
automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that
caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox
full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the
Lists you will find record of it at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed
If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel
free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice.
*******************************
*** List Member Information ***
*******************************
If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and
paper mail address in the following format:
smith@somehost.com
Joe Smith
123 Airport Lane
Tower, CA 91234-1234
098-765-1234 w
123-456-7890 h
Please forward this information to the following email address:
requests@matronics.com
I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when
there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT
be used for any other commercial purpose.
****************************************
*** Realtime Web Email List Browsing ***
****************************************
Recent messages posted to the AeroElectric-List are also made available on
the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are
available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject,
Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are
updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message
or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon).
You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List
Browser Interface in view-mode.
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
*******************************************
*** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface ***
*******************************************
A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all AeroElectric-List content.
content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email
distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the
List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the
respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to
the web Forums.
You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login.
If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you
will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few
minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the
main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also
enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to
Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the
Email Distribution of the List, however.
The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL:
http://forums.matronics.com
*********************************
*** Matronics Email List Wiki ***
*********************************
In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed
information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at:
http://wiki.matronics.com
The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information
for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page
where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki
permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately.
While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be
comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any
images and email it to:
wiki-support@matronics.com
One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct
a Wiki page for you.
Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the
Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that
post and convert it into a Wiki page.
*********************
*** List Archives ***
*********************
A file containing of all of the previous postings to the AeroElectric-List is
available on line. The archive file information is available via the
Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below:
* AeroElectric-List.FAQ
- Latest version of the AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Question
page (this document).
* AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete
- Complete file with most of the email header info removed and
page breaks inserted between messages.
* AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-??
- Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that
can more easily handled.
* AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.zip
- Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
* AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.Z
- Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
******************************************
*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
******************************************
All messages posted to the AeroElectric-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?AeroElectric
*****************************************
**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
*****************************************
You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
**************************
*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
**********************************
*** List Support Contributions ***
**********************************
The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members.
You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages
associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November
I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
are comfortable.
I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated
by companies that are themselves List members.
Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server
system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many
many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the
variety of services found here.
Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains
value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude.
Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just
subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in.
The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are
a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and
sending a personal check.
If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
support its continued operation?
http://www.matronics.com/contributions
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
AeroElectric-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
Message 12
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| Subject: | Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
AeroElectric-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
AeroElectric-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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