AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Wed 04/03/13


Total Messages Posted: 29



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 05:32 AM - Re: Ebus Diode (James Kilford)
     2. 06:54 AM - Re: Ebus Diode (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     3. 07:42 AM - Re: Ebus Diode (James Kilford)
     4. 08:36 AM - Re: Ebus Diode (Richard Girard)
     5. 09:31 AM - Re: Ebus Diode (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     6. 09:46 AM - Re: Ebus Diode (James Kilford)
     7. 10:34 AM - heat treat problem (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     8. 10:43 AM - Re: heat treat problem (Ken Lehman)
     9. 10:43 AM - Re: heat treat problem (racerjerry)
    10. 11:02 AM - Re: heat treat problem (chris smale)
    11. 11:17 AM - Re: Ebus Diode (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    12. 11:20 AM - Re: heat treat problem (rv7a.builder)
    13. 11:47 AM - Re: heat treat problem (Mark Wesson)
    14. 11:52 AM - Re: heat treat problem (BobsV35B@aol.com)
    15. 12:00 PM - Re: heat treat problem (RGent1224@aol.com)
    16. 12:26 PM - Re: heat treat problem (Bill Putney)
    17. 12:36 PM - Re: heat treat problem (H. Marvin Haught)
    18. 01:12 PM - Re: heat treat problem (solved) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    19. 01:44 PM - LED heatsink material? (wynaire@citlink.net)
    20. 02:14 PM - Re: heat treat problem (Paul Millner)
    21. 02:49 PM - Re: LED heatsink material? (Henador Titzoff)
    22. 02:51 PM - Re: LED heatsink material? (Richard Tasker)
    23. 03:23 PM - Opinion on fuse block (Ed Godfrey)
    24. 03:36 PM - Re: heat treat problem (rayj)
    25. 04:08 PM - Re: heat treat problem (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    26. 04:09 PM - Re: heat treat problem (rayj)
    27. 04:19 PM - Re: Opinion on fuse block (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    28. 06:27 PM - Re: Ebus Diode (DEAN PSIROPOULOS)
    29. 09:41 PM - Re: heat treat problem (solved) (David Lloyd)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 05:32:18 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Ebus Diode
    From: James Kilford <james@etravel.org>
    On a related note, is there a way to determine if a heatsink is large enough? I made a heatsink out of some scrap .020" aluminium -- half a dozen pieces of varying lengths, stacked and folded up at the ends to form fins. I've bolted it under the rectifier with some heatsink paste. Seems like quite a lot of aluminium, and plenty of surface area, but it would nice to find a way of evaluating its effectiveness... other than waiting for the smell of burning semiconductor... Many thanks, James On 2 April 2013 16:38, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 09:56 AM 4/2/2013, you wrote: > > The drawing http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/Diode_Installation.pdf > From B and C shows both ~ (I don't have the correct symbol horizontal s > with -) terminals powered from the main bus with the + going to the Ebus > and - unused. > Question: I could run power from the main bus to either ~ terminal and > power the Ebus? > Powering both ~ terminals gains a little redundancy to power the Ebus? > > > No 'redundancy' just a potential tiny improvement in > thermal modeling. Not a big deal one way or another. > Run main bus power to either one or both AC input > terminals, one wire from (+) to e-bus. > > Bob . . . > > ** > > ** Bob . . . > > * > > * > >


    Message 2


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    Time: 06:54:15 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Ebus Diode
    At 07:31 AM 4/3/2013, you wrote: >On a related note, is there a way to determine >if a heatsink is large enough? > >I made a heatsink out of some scrap .020" >aluminium -- half a dozen pieces of varying >lengths, stacked and folded up at the ends to >form fins. I've bolted it under the rectifier with some heatsink paste. > >Seems like quite a lot of aluminium, and plenty >of surface area, but it would nice to find a way >of evaluating its effectiveness... other than >waiting for the smell of burning semiconductor... What are your e-bus normal running loads? I would not expect loads of 10A or less to call for anything other than to simply mount the diode a metal surface in the airplane. I could run some tests here for higher currents but keep in mind that the e-bus is for 'endurance' loads . . . minimal equipment to conduct the en route phase of flight . . . reduced energy demands to save the battery for approach to landing. I suggested that big fat diode because of it's convenience for mounting and wiring. The fact that it is rated for 25 or 35 amps was in no way intended to suggest that e-bus loads should/could be that large. The e-bus is a risk reduction feature that is not likely to be needed more than once over the lifetime of your airplane. It's a feature that offers a degrees of System Reliability that reduces probability that a main alternator failure will cause you to break a sweat. As a renter, I have never enjoyed access to features that we're building into OBAM aircraft. My personal endurance package was carried around in the flight bag. http://tinyurl.com/d5mrjgh In fact, I've not turned a VOR receiver on in nearly 20 years. Not since I discovered the capabilities of hand-held GPS receivers that were so cheap I could give them away as door prizes at my seminars! My last cross-country sojourns were managed with dual GPS receivers stuck between the glare-shield and windshield with little wads of windshield sealant. It didn't matter if the airplane was a J-3 or A-36, I was confident in my ability to get from point A to Point B whether the ship's electrical system was fully functional or not. That's a high degree of failure tolerance and system reliability. Bob . . .


    Message 3


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    Time: 07:42:46 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Ebus Diode
    From: James Kilford <james@etravel.org>
    Thanks Bob, I have a theoretical max load of a little under 7A. I agree with your sentiments about the essential bus. I don't anticipate needing it... but it's nice to know that it's there... James On 3 April 2013 14:52, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com**> > > At 07:31 AM 4/3/2013, you wrote: > >> On a related note, is there a way to determine if a heatsink is large >> enough? =C3=82 >> >> I made a heatsink out of some scrap .020" aluminium -- half a dozen >> pieces of varying lengths, stacked and folded up at the ends to form fin s. >> =C3=82 I've bolted it under the rectifier with some heatsink paste. =C3 =82 >> >> >> Seems like quite a lot of aluminium, and plenty of surface area, but it >> would nice to find a way of evaluating its effectiveness... other than >> waiting for the smell of burning semiconductor... >> > > What are your e-bus normal running loads? > I would not expect loads of 10A or less to > call for anything other than to simply mount > the diode a metal surface in the airplane. > > I could run some tests here for higher currents > but keep in mind that the e-bus is for 'endurance' > loads . . . minimal equipment to conduct the > en route phase of flight . . . reduced energy > demands to save the battery for approach to > landing. > > I suggested that big fat diode because of it's > convenience for mounting and wiring. The fact that > it is rated for 25 or 35 amps was in no way intended > to suggest that e-bus loads should/could be > that large. > > The e-bus is a risk reduction feature that is > not likely to be needed more than once over the > lifetime of your airplane. It's a feature that > offers a degrees of System Reliability that > reduces probability that a main alternator failure > will cause you to break a sweat. > > As a renter, I have never enjoyed access to features > that we're building into OBAM aircraft. My personal > endurance package was carried around in the flight > bag. http://tinyurl.com/d5mrjgh > > In fact, I've not turned a VOR receiver on in nearly > 20 years. Not since I discovered the capabilities > of hand-held GPS receivers that were so cheap I could > give them away as door prizes at my seminars! My last > cross-country sojourns were managed with dual > GPS receivers stuck between the glare-shield and > windshield with little wads of windshield sealant. > > It didn't matter if the airplane was a J-3 or A-36, > I was confident in my ability to get from point A to > Point B whether the ship's electrical system was > fully functional or not. That's a high degree of > failure tolerance and system reliability. > > > Bob . . . > > =====**=================== ===========**= /www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List> =====**=================== ===========**= =====**=================== ===========**= com/contribution> =====**=================== ===========**= > >


    Message 4


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    Time: 08:36:40 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Ebus Diode
    From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
    James, One of these should give you some numbers to play with to see how well your heatsink is working as you ebuss is loaded up. http://www.harborfreight.com/infrared-thermometer-with-laser-targeting-non- contact-69465.html Harbor Freight has a coupon out this month that reduces the price a further $10 to $25.99. Just a thought Rick Girard On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 9:41 AM, James Kilford <james@etravel.org> wrote: > Thanks Bob, I have a theoretical max load of a little under 7A. > > I agree with your sentiments about the essential bus. I don't anticipate > needing it... but it's nice to know that it's there... > > James > > On 3 April 2013 14:52, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > >> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com**> >> >> At 07:31 AM 4/3/2013, you wrote: >> >>> On a related note, is there a way to determine if a heatsink is large >>> enough? =C2 >>> >>> I made a heatsink out of some scrap .020" aluminium -- half a dozen >>> pieces of varying lengths, stacked and folded up at the ends to form fi ns. >>> =C2 I've bolted it under the rectifier with some heatsink paste. =C2 >>> >>> >>> Seems like quite a lot of aluminium, and plenty of surface area, but it >>> would nice to find a way of evaluating its effectiveness... other than >>> waiting for the smell of burning semiconductor... >>> >> >> What are your e-bus normal running loads? >> I would not expect loads of 10A or less to >> call for anything other than to simply mount >> the diode a metal surface in the airplane. >> >> I could run some tests here for higher currents >> but keep in mind that the e-bus is for 'endurance' >> loads . . . minimal equipment to conduct the >> en route phase of flight . . . reduced energy >> demands to save the battery for approach to >> landing. >> >> I suggested that big fat diode because of it's >> convenience for mounting and wiring. The fact that >> it is rated for 25 or 35 amps was in no way intended >> to suggest that e-bus loads should/could be >> that large. >> >> The e-bus is a risk reduction feature that is >> not likely to be needed more than once over the >> lifetime of your airplane. It's a feature that >> offers a degrees of System Reliability that >> reduces probability that a main alternator failure >> will cause you to break a sweat. >> >> As a renter, I have never enjoyed access to features >> that we're building into OBAM aircraft. My personal >> endurance package was carried around in the flight >> bag. http://tinyurl.com/d5mrjgh >> >> In fact, I've not turned a VOR receiver on in nearly >> 20 years. Not since I discovered the capabilities >> of hand-held GPS receivers that were so cheap I could >> give them away as door prizes at my seminars! My last >> cross-country sojourns were managed with dual >> GPS receivers stuck between the glare-shield and >> windshield with little wads of windshield sealant. >> >> It didn't matter if the airplane was a J-3 or A-36, >> I was confident in my ability to get from point A to >> Point B whether the ship's electrical system was >> fully functional or not. That's a high degree of >> failure tolerance and system reliability. >> >> >> >> Bob . . . >> >> >> ====**=================== ===========**= >> - >> ric-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/** >> Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> ====**=================== ===========**= >> MS - >> k">http://forums.matronics.com >> ====**=================== ===========**= >> e - >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/**contribution >> ====**=================== ===========**= >> >> >> >> > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx


    Message 5


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    Time: 09:31:33 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Ebus Diode
    At 09:41 AM 4/3/2013, you wrote: >Thanks Bob, I have a theoretical max load of a little under 7A. > >I agree with your sentiments about the essential >bus. I don't anticipate needing it... but it's >nice to know that it's there... Very good. No 'extra' heat sinking necessary. Just bolt it to a metallic surface. Bob . . .


    Message 6


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    Time: 09:46:16 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Ebus Diode
    From: James Kilford <james@etravel.org>
    Well, that's more tricky. The firewall on this plane (Jodel) is a sandwich of plywood and balsa... so I'm hoping the heatsink will suffice. Worse-case scenario -- I could move the diode to the engine compartment side of the firewall, which is covered with a thin sheet of stainless steel. James On 3 April 2013 17:29, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > At 09:41 AM 4/3/2013, you wrote: >> >> Thanks Bob, I have a theoretical max load of a little under 7A. >> >> I agree with your sentiments about the essential bus. I don't anticipate >> needing it... but it's nice to know that it's there... > > > Very good. No 'extra' heat sinking necessary. > Just bolt it to a metallic surface. > > > Bob . . . > >


    Message 7


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    Time: 10:34:00 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: heat treat problem
    I've got a project that hit a bit of a snag. I'm building a recovery parachute control system that uses a t-handle to deploy the parachute. I found a really handy size T-handle in McMaster-Carr and proceed with my endeavors. One of the last operations during assembly called for cutting the shaft of the t-handle to length and then drilling a 3/16" hole in the last 1/2". The hole accepts a roll-pin that runs in the slot on a guide collar to set stroke of the handle and to restrain rotation. Emacs! When I cut the shaft with an abrasive cut-off wheel, the it turned out to bet harder than the hubs-of-you-know-what. It's the right length but now I need to drill the hole. No chance with any tools I have. I think I recall that steel can be heated to some pretty ordinary temperatures (less than incandescent) and cooled slowly to remove the heat treat. Strength in this area is very un-critical. I can put a thermocouple on it and heat with a torch. I've browsed some heat-treat documents but the without some time consuming study, no immediate notions of process jumped out. I need to soften this part so that I can drill it with ordinary high-speed drills. Are there any folks on the list with some practical experience in this area? Hoping to deliver this thing tomorrow but it ain't gonna happen without the pin installed. Any suggestions from the List? Bob . . .


    Message 8


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    Time: 10:43:52 AM PST US
    From: "Ken Lehman" <klehman@albedo.net>
    Subject: Re: heat treat problem
    I don't do a lot of this but if it is carbon steel just heat it up to a nice red color and air cool it. The hardening only occurs if it is shock cooled in oil or water or the attached heat sink is relatively massive. A room temperature slow cool should take out the hardness. A good carbide masonry bit running slow will sometimes go through pretty hard steel. A hardware store cobalt bit is dramatically better than an High Speed Steel bit. Ken <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > > I've got a project that hit a bit of a snag. I'm > building a recovery parachute control system that > uses a t-handle to deploy the parachute. I found > a really handy size T-handle in McMaster-Carr > and proceed with my endeavors. > > One of the last operations during assembly called for > cutting the shaft of the t-handle to length and then > drilling a 3/16" hole in the last 1/2". The hole > accepts a roll-pin that runs in the slot on a guide > collar to set stroke of the handle and to restrain > rotation. > > Emacs! > > > When I cut the shaft with an abrasive cut-off wheel, the > it turned out to bet harder than the hubs-of-you-know-what. > It's the right length but now I need to drill the hole. No > chance with any tools I have. > > I think I recall that steel can be heated to some pretty > ordinary temperatures (less than incandescent) and cooled > slowly to remove the heat treat. Strength in this area is > very un-critical. I can put a thermocouple on it and heat > with a torch. I've browsed some heat-treat documents > but the without some time consuming study, no immediate > notions of process jumped out. I need to soften this part > so that I can drill it with ordinary high-speed drills. > > Are there any folks on the list with some practical experience > in this area? Hoping to deliver this thing tomorrow but > it ain't gonna happen without the pin installed. Any > suggestions from the List? > > Bob . . . >


    Message 9


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    Time: 10:43:52 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: heat treat problem
    From: "racerjerry" <gki@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
    EDM aka Electrical Discharge Machining. Google it for a machine shop that has that capability in your area. EDM easily penetrates any conductive material. Good luck, Bob -------- Jerry King Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397758#397758


    Message 10


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    Time: 11:02:26 AM PST US
    From: chris smale <csmale@bak.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: heat treat problem


    Message 11


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    Time: 11:17:28 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Ebus Diode
    At 11:45 AM 4/3/2013, you wrote: > >Well, that's more tricky. The firewall on this plane (Jodel) is a >sandwich of plywood and balsa... so I'm hoping the heatsink will >suffice. Worse-case scenario -- I could move the diode to the engine >compartment side of the firewall, which is covered with a thin sheet >of stainless steel. Hmmmm . . . okay. The heat sink you built up from sheet metal will be fine. Don't move it to the other side of the firewall. Bob . . .


    Message 12


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    Time: 11:20:24 AM PST US
    From: "rv7a.builder" <rv7a.builder@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: heat treat problem
    Is EDM an option?=0A=0A=0AFrom: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aer oelectric.com>=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Wednesday, Ap ril 3, 2013 10:32 AM=0ASubject: AeroElectric-List: heat treat problem=0A=0A =0AI've got a project that hit a bit of a snag. I'm=0Abuilding a recovery p arachute control system that=0Auses a t-handle to deploy the parachute. I f ound=0Aa really handy size T-handle in McMaster-Carr=0Aand proceed with my endeavors.=0A=0AOne of the last operations during assembly called for=0Acut ting the shaft of the t-handle to length and then=0Adrilling a 3/16" hole i n the last 1/2".- The hole=0Aaccepts a roll-pin that runs in the slot on a guide=0Acollar to set stroke of the handle and to restrain=0Arotation.=0A =0A=0A=0AWhen I cut the shaft with an abrasive cut-off wheel, the=0Ait turn ed out to bet harder than the hubs-of-you-know-what.=0AIt's the right lengt h but now I need to drill the hole. No=0Achance with any tools I have.=0A =0AI think I recall that steel can be heated to some pretty=0Aordinary temp eratures (less than incandescent) and cooled=0Aslowly to remove the heat tr eat. Strength in this area is=0Avery un-critical. I can put a thermocouple on it and heat=0Awith a torch. I've browsed some heat-treat documents=0Abut the without some time consuming study, no immediate=0Anotions of process j umped out. I need to soften this part=0Aso that I can drill it with ordinar y high-speed drills.=0A=0AAre there any folks on the list with some practic al experience=0Ain this area? Hoping to deliver this thing tomorrow but=0Ai t ain't gonna happen without the pin installed. Any=0Asuggestions from the List?=0A=0A- Bob . . .


    Message 13


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    Time: 11:47:00 AM PST US
    From: "Mark Wesson" <Mark@wessonair.com>
    Subject: heat treat problem
    There are many people that will say duh, but there may be a few that will later thank me. I have heard many complain about drilling the stainless firewall and taking an hour and one drill bit per hole. I will share what I learned the hard way. I am able to drill the stainless in less that one minute and not dull a bit. It is all about removing heat from the drill bit and the part you are drilling. If you use a high speed and it doesn't cut it will burn up the bit. In order to remove the heat you need to have chips flying. Aluminum is soft so the 4000rpm air drills we use work fine. The chips are a flying carring the heat away. For harder metals you need to increase the pressure and slow the bit down until the chips fly. It is as easy as that. Slow the drill speed down and increase the pressure until the heat is removed by flying metal chips. Now I have not tried anything too hard since I learned this but I sure have made butter out of the stainless that other people complain about. Mark W


    Message 14


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    Time: 11:52:05 AM PST US
    From: BobsV35B@aol.com
    Subject: Re: heat treat problem
    Good Afternoon Bob, Maybe this will jog a few memories. Back when I was in High School (Seventy Years Ago) My shop teacher taught us how to make great hunting knives out of worn out files, We heated them with an acetylene torch to bright red then stuck them into some sort of powder to cool. Once they had cooled they were very easy to grind to the knife shape. We then heated them back up again and quenched them in a light oil to harden the edge. My thought is that the powder we slow cooled them in was ordinary baking flour. Anyone know for sure? I am also fuzzy on just what liquid we used for the quick cool. May have been something other than light oil. All very far back in my faulty memory, but maybe that will jog some one else's memory. Worked like a champ to turn those files in hunting knives. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 4/3/2013 1:13:38 P.M. Central Daylight Time, nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com writes: I've got a project that hit a bit of a snag. I'm building a recovery parachute control system that uses a t-handle to deploy the parachute. I found a really handy size T-handle in McMaster-Carr and proceed with my endeavors. One of the last operations during assembly called for cutting the shaft of the t-handle to length and then drilling a 3/16" hole in the last 1/2". The hole accepts a roll-pin that runs in the slot on a guide collar to set stroke of the handle and to restrain rotation. When I cut the shaft with an abrasive cut-off wheel, the it turned out to bet harder than the hubs-of-you-know-what. It's the right length but now I need to drill the hole. No chance with any tools I have. I think I recall that steel can be heated to some pretty ordinary temperatures (less than incandescent) and cooled slowly to remove the heat treat. Strength in this area is very un-critical. I can put a thermocouple on it and heat with a torch. I've browsed some heat-treat documents but the without some time consuming study, no immediate notions of process jumped out. I need to soften this part so that I can drill it with ordinary high-speed drills. Are there any folks on the list with some practical experience in this area? Hoping to deliver this thing tomorrow but it ain't gonna happen without the pin installed. Any suggestions from the List? Bob . . .


    Message 15


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    Time: 12:00:45 PM PST US
    From: RGent1224@aol.com
    Subject: Re: heat treat problem
    Old Bob Probably that far back in our high school days it was sand any how that is what my dad taught me to use when converting the worn out file to something useful Older Dick In a message dated 4/3/2013 1:54:16 P.M. Central Daylight Time, BobsV35B@aol.com writes: Good Afternoon Bob, Maybe this will jog a few memories. Back when I was in High School (Seventy Years Ago) My shop teacher taught us how to make great hunting knives out of worn out files, We heated them with an acetylene torch to bright red then stuck them into some sort of powder to cool. Once they had cooled they were very easy to grind to the knife shape. We then heated them back up again and quenched them in a light oil to harden the edge. My thought is that the powder we slow cooled them in was ordinary baking flour. Anyone know for sure? I am also fuzzy on just what liquid we used for the quick cool. May have been something other than light oil. All very far back in my faulty memory, but maybe that will jog some one else's memory. Worked like a champ to turn those files in hunting knives. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 4/3/2013 1:13:38 P.M. Central Daylight Time, nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com writes: I've got a project that hit a bit of a snag. I'm building a recovery parachute control system that uses a t-handle to deploy the parachute. I found a really handy size T-handle in McMaster-Carr and proceed with my endeavors. One of the last operations during assembly called for cutting the shaft of the t-handle to length and then drilling a 3/16" hole in the last 1/2". The hole accepts a roll-pin that runs in the slot on a guide collar to set stroke of the handle and to restrain rotation. When I cut the shaft with an abrasive cut-off wheel, the it turned out to bet harder than the hubs-of-you-know-what. It's the right length but now I need to drill the hole. No chance with any tools I have. I think I recall that steel can be heated to some pretty ordinary temperatures (less than incandescent) and cooled slowly to remove the heat treat. Strength in this area is very un-critical. I can put a thermocouple on it and heat with a torch. I've browsed some heat-treat documents but the without some time consuming study, no immediate notions of process jumped out. I need to soften this part so that I can drill it with ordinary high-speed drills. Are there any folks on the list with some practical experience in this area? Hoping to deliver this thing tomorrow but it ain't gonna happen without the pin installed. Any suggestions from the List? Bob . . .


    Message 16


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    Time: 12:26:42 PM PST US
    From: Bill Putney <billp@wwpc.com>
    Subject: Re: heat treat problem


    Message 17


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    Time: 12:36:13 PM PST US
    From: "H. Marvin Haught" <handainc@madisoncounty.net>
    Subject: Re: heat treat problem
    Bob - If the part is not critical, just heat it up red hot, hold it there for a minute or so, and let it air cool. Here is a fair discussion of the process. http://www.efunda.com/processes/heat_treat/softening/annealing.cfm Alternatively, a very sharp drill bit, turned very slowly will also work with lots of cooling fluid. I set up my drill press for that very purpose (had to drill some spring steel with out having to re-treat it) by installing a secondary motor with small pulley. Liked it so well that way that I just left it set up. Doesn't do well on soft metals, but is not nearly as hard on drill bits, and works for nearly any type of steel. M. Haught On Apr 3, 2013, at 1:51 PM, BobsV35B@aol.com wrote: > Good Afternoon Bob, > > Maybe this will jog a few memories. > > Back when I was in High School (Seventy Years Ago) My shop teacher taught us how to make great hunting knives out of worn out files, We heated them with an acetylene torch to bright red then stuck them into some sort of powder to cool. Once they had cooled they were very easy to grind to the knife shape. > > We then heated them back up again and quenched them in a light oil to harden the edge. > > My thought is that the powder we slow cooled them in was ordinary baking flour. Anyone know for sure? > > I am also fuzzy on just what liquid we used for the quick cool. May have been something other than light oil. All very far back in my faulty memory, but maybe that will jog some one else's memory. Worked like a champ to turn those files in hunting knives. > > Happy Skies, > > Old Bob > > In a message dated 4/3/2013 1:13:38 P.M. Central Daylight Time, nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com writes: > I've got a project that hit a bit of a snag. I'm > building a recovery parachute control system that > uses a t-handle to deploy the parachute. I found > a really handy size T-handle in McMaster-Carr > and proceed with my endeavors. > > One of the last operations during assembly called for > cutting the shaft of the t-handle to length and then > drilling a 3/16" hole in the last 1/2". The hole > accepts a roll-pin that runs in the slot on a guide > collar to set stroke of the handle and to restrain > rotation. > > <1efc966e.jpg> > When I cut the shaft with an abrasive cut-off wheel, the > it turned out to bet harder than the hubs-of-you-know-what. > It's the right length but now I need to drill the hole. No > chance with any tools I have. > > I think I recall that steel can be heated to some pretty > ordinary temperatures (less than incandescent) and cooled > slowly to remove the heat treat. Strength in this area is > very un-critical. I can put a thermocouple on it and heat > with a torch. I've browsed some heat-treat documents > but the without some time consuming study, no immediate > notions of process jumped out. I need to soften this part > so that I can drill it with ordinary high-speed drills. > > Are there any folks on the list with some practical experience > in this area? Hoping to deliver this thing tomorrow but > it ain't gonna happen without the pin installed. Any > suggestions from the List? > > Bob . . . >


    Message 18


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    Time: 01:12:43 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: heat treat problem (solved)
    Heated to barely incandescent (turned lights out to detect threshold) with Propane torch and then let cool in air. Was delighted to find that my center punch actually made a mark on it! Was able to drill the necessary hole with no difficulty. Bob . . .


    Message 19


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    Time: 01:44:50 PM PST US
    From: "wynaire@citlink.net" <wynaire@citlink.net>
    Subject: LED heatsink material?
    Hello All,=0AYour thoughts or lessons from experience: =0AI am mounting two (2) each 10Watt LED's (R/G color and -white [6500k] in each wing tip, un der a clear tip lens. The mounting plate (polished for reflectivity) can be copper or SS or aluminum. Which material is the best choice for conducting the LED heat away from the LED's?=0AThanks in advance for your suggestions . Any other bits of related info are also appreciated.=0AMike W.=0ALNC2 360 @ 88% finished... with 88% to go ;)=0A=0AFrom: James Kilford <james@etrave l.org>=0A>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com =0A>Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2013 6:31 AM=0A>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ebus Diode=0A>=0A>=0A>On a related note, is there a way to determine if a heatsink is large enough? - =0A>=0A>=0A>I made a heatsink out of some scrap .020" aluminium -- half a dozen pieces of varying lengths, stacked and folded up at the ends to fo rm fins. -I've bolted it under the rectifier with some heatsink paste. -=0A>=0A>=0A>Seems like quite a lot of aluminium, and plenty of surface a rea, but it would nice to find a way of evaluating its effectiveness... oth er than waiting for the smell of burning semiconductor...=0A>=0A>=0A>Many t hanks,-=0A>=0A>=0A>James=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>On 2 April 2013 16:38, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:=0A>=0A>At 09:56 AM 4/2 /2013, you wrote:=0A>>=0A>>The drawing http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/Diode_Inst allation.pdf=0A>>>From B and C shows both ~ (I don't have the correct symbo l horizontal s with -) terminals powered from the main bus with the + going to the Ebus and - unused.=0A>>>=0A>>>Question: I could run power from the main bus to either ~ terminal and power the Ebus?=0A>>>=0A>>>Powering both ~ terminals gains a little redundancy to power the Ebus?=0A>>- No 'redund ancy' just a potential tiny improvement in=0A>>- thermal modeling. Not a big deal one way or another.=0A>>- Run main bus power to either one or bo th AC input=0A>>- terminals, one wire from (+) to e-bus.=0A>>=0A>>- Bob . . .=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>- Bob . . . =0A>>ist" target="_blank">http://www.m atronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-Listtp://forums.matronics.com_bla -======================== =========== =0A>=0A>


    Message 20


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    Time: 02:14:18 PM PST US
    From: Paul Millner <millner@me.com>
    Subject: Re: heat treat problem
    On 4/3/2013 11:51 AM, BobsV35B@aol.com wrote: > the powder we slow cooled them in was ordinary baking flour. Anyone > know for sure? Flour is combustible, and if you generate flour dust, explosive... probably not a good thing to put very hot metal objects into. Paul


    Message 21


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    Time: 02:49:22 PM PST US
    From: Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: LED heatsink material?
    Hello Mike W.,=0A=0AThe short answer is copper.- This is evidenced by eac h material's thermal conductivity, shown below in SI units:=0A=0A--- - Copper - 401 Watt/(meter x Kelvin)=0A---- Aluminum - 237 Watt/( meter x Kelvin)=0A---- Stainless steel - 16.7 Watt/(meter x Kelvin) =0A=0A=0AThe above data came from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the rmal_conductivities=0A=0AThermal conductivity is the property of a material to conduct heat. As you can see, copper conducts heat 1.7 times better tha n aluminum and 24 times better than a certain type of stainless steel. Ther e are other things to consider but since your mounting plate is your reflec tor and you are stuck with its dimensions, form factor and coating.- If y ou are looking for the best conductor, copper is the choice.- This also a ssumes that you are not concerned with weight or corrosion.=0A=0A-=0AHena dor Titzoff=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: "wynaire@c itlink.net" <wynaire@citlink.net>=0ATo: "aeroelectric-list@matronics.com" < aeroelectric-list@matronics.com> =0ASent: Wednesday, April 3, 2013 4:43 PM =0ASubject: AeroElectric-List: LED heatsink material?=0A =0A=0AHello All, =0AYour thoughts or lessons from experience: =0AI am mounting two (2) each 10Watt LED's (R/G color and -white [6500k] in each wing tip, under a clea r tip lens. The mounting plate (polished for reflectivity) can be copper or SS or aluminum. Which material is the best choice for conducting the LED h eat away from the LED's?=0AThanks in advance for your suggestions. Any othe r bits of related info are also appreciated.=0AMike W.=0ALNC2 360 @ 88% fin ished... with 88% to go ;)=0A=0A=0AFrom: James Kilford <james@etravel.org> =0A>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com =0A>Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2013 6:31 AM=0A>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ebus Diode=0A>=0A>=0A>On a relat ed note, is there a way to determine if a heatsink is large enough? - =0A >=0A>=0A>I made a heatsink out of some scrap .020" aluminium -- half a doze n pieces of varying lengths, stacked and folded up at the ends to form fins . -I've bolted it under the rectifier with some heatsink paste. -=0A> =0A>=0A>Seems like quite a lot of aluminium, and plenty of surface area, bu t it would nice to find a way of evaluating its effectiveness... other than waiting for the smell of burning semiconductor...=0A>=0A>=0A>Many thanks, -=0A>=0A>=0A>James=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>On 2 April 2013 16:38, Robert L. Nuckol ls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:=0A>=0A>At 09:56 AM 4/2/2013, you wrote:=0A>>=0A>>The drawing http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/Diode_Installati on.pdf=0A>>>From B and C shows both ~ (I don't have the correct symbol hori zontal s with -) terminals powered from the main bus with the + going to th e Ebus and - unused.=0A>>>=0A>>>Question: I could run power from the main b us to either ~ terminal and power the Ebus?=0A>>>=0A>>>Powering both ~ term inals gains a little redundancy to power the Ebus?=0A>>- No 'redundancy' just a potential tiny improvement in=0A>>- thermal modeling. Not a big de al one way or another.=0A>>- Run main bus power to either one or both AC input=0A>>- terminals, one wire from (+) to e-bus.=0A>>=0A>>- Bob . . . =0A>>=0A>> =0A>>- Bob . . . =0A>>ist" target="_blank">http://www.matron ics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List=0Atp://forums.matronics.com=0A_blank">h -======================== ===========


    Message 22


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    Time: 02:51:38 PM PST US
    From: Richard Tasker <retasker@optonline.net>
    Subject: Re: LED heatsink material?
    Copper is best, then Aluminum then Steel. Dick Tasker wynaire@citlink.net wrote: > Hello All, > Your thoughts or lessons from experience: > I am mounting two (2) each 10Watt LED's (R/G color and white [6500k] in each wing tip, under a clear tip lens. The > mounting plate (polished for reflectivity) can be copper or SS or aluminum. Which material is the best choice for > conducting the LED heat away from the LED's? > Thanks in advance for your suggestions. Any other bits of related info are also appreciated. > Mike W. > LNC2 360 @ 88% finished... with 88% to go ;)


    Message 23


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    Time: 03:23:38 PM PST US
    From: Ed Godfrey <egodfrey@ameritech.net>
    Subject: Opinion on fuse block
    Bob, Do you have any opinion on a fuse block with a built-in "forest of ground tabs" such as this one? http://www.starmarinedepot.com/Sierra+Fuse+Block+ATO-ATC+14+Gangs.html?gclid=CKSR4vDDr7YCFQUHnQodHBAAMA Ed Godfrey 40717


    Message 24


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    Time: 03:36:07 PM PST US
    From: rayj <raymondj@frontiernet.net>
    Subject: Re: heat treat problem


    Message 25


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    Time: 04:08:08 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: heat treat problem
    At 02:35 PM 4/3/2013, you wrote: >Bob - > >If the part is not critical, just heat it up red hot, hold it there >for a minute or so, and let it air cool. Here is a fair discussion >of the process. ><http://www.efunda.com/processes/heat_treat/softening/annealing.cfm>http://www.efunda.com/processes/heat_treat/softening/annealing.cfm Essentially that's what I did. >Alternatively, a very sharp drill bit, turned very slowly will also >work with lots of cooling fluid. I set up my drill press for that >very purpose (had to drill some spring steel with out having to >re-treat it) by installing a secondary motor with small >pulley. Liked it so well that way that I just left it set >up. Doesn't do well on soft metals, but is not nearly as hard on >drill bits, and works for nearly any type of steel. I tried that earlier but the stuff was so hard my center punch wouldn't even mark it! Couldn't get a bit to set still in one spot long enough to remove any material. Softening it up worked great. Bob . . .


    Message 26


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    Time: 04:09:52 PM PST US
    From: rayj <raymondj@frontiernet.net>
    Subject: Re: heat treat problem
    Based on the old articles I've read about heat treating and tempering it could have been sifted wood ash,or asbestos. Just things I've read about people using. It was probably oil you dipped in to quench. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 04/03/2013 01:51 PM, BobsV35B@aol.com wrote: > Good Afternoon Bob, > Maybe this will jog a few memories. > Back when I was in High School (Seventy Years Ago) My shop teacher > taught us how to make great hunting knives out of worn out files, We > heated them with an acetylene torch to bright red then stuck them into > some sort of powder to cool. Once they had cooled they were very easy > to grind to the knife shape. > We then heated them back up again and quenched them in a light oil to > harden the edge. > My thought is that the powder we slow cooled them in was ordinary > baking flour. Anyone know for sure? > I am also fuzzy on just what liquid we used for the quick cool. May > have been something other than light oil. All very far back in my > faulty memory, but maybe that will jog some one else's memory. Worked > like a champ to turn those files in hunting knives. > Happy Skies, > Old Bob > In a message dated 4/3/2013 1:13:38 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com writes: > > I've got a project that hit a bit of a snag. I'm > building a recovery parachute control system that > uses a t-handle to deploy the parachute. I found > a really handy size T-handle in McMaster-Carr > and proceed with my endeavors. > > One of the last operations during assembly called for > cutting the shaft of the t-handle to length and then > drilling a 3/16" hole in the last 1/2". The hole > accepts a roll-pin that runs in the slot on a guide > collar to set stroke of the handle and to restrain > rotation. > Image removed > > When I cut the shaft with an abrasive cut-off wheel, the > it turned out to bet harder than the hubs-of-you-know-what. > It's the right length but now I need to drill the hole. No > chance with any tools I have. > > I think I recall that steel can be heated to some pretty > ordinary temperatures (less than incandescent) and cooled > slowly to remove the heat treat. Strength in this area is > very un-critical. I can put a thermocouple on it and heat > with a torch. I've browsed some heat-treat documents > but the without some time consuming study, no immediate > notions of process jumped out. I need to soften this part > so that I can drill it with ordinary high-speed drills. > > Are there any folks on the list with some practical experience > in this area? Hoping to deliver this thing tomorrow but > it ain't gonna happen without the pin installed. Any > suggestions from the List? > > Bob . . . >


    Message 27


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    Time: 04:19:34 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Opinion on fuse block
    At 05:22 PM 4/3/2013, you wrote: > >Bob, > Do you have any opinion on a fuse block with a built-in "forest > of ground tabs" such as this one? > >http://www.starmarinedepot.com/Sierra+Fuse+Block+ATO-ATC+14+Gangs.html?gclid=CKSR4vDDr7YCFQUHnQodHBAAMA > >Ed Godfrey >40717 Yeah, I looked at those when I started selling the fuse blocks. It SEEMS like a good idea. So do switch/breakers. It's a matter of architecture. Do you WANT your single point ground to be right next to the bus, or does it fit better elsewhere? Also, the products I has available to me then offered fewer grounds that bus feeders. In my experience you need about 1.5 times more grounds than feeders. Same thing with switch/breakers. The notion of combining control and protection functions into a single device FORCES some portion of the bus structure to be located right behind the panel. It can also make for some interesting looking bus structures when the switches located for human factors reasons don't lend themselves to being grouped with their respective busses. I think the fuse block, toggle switch and forest of tabs ground block as separate products gives the builder a low cost, minimum parts count, architecturally elegant solution to doing the best we know how to do. Bob . . .


    Message 28


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    Time: 06:27:08 PM PST US
    From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos@verizon.net>
    Subject: RE: Ebus Diode
    If you want true redundancy then just use two rectifiers in parallel. When I built my panel I ended up with a full IFR radio stack on the Ebus and some other items that, together, take quite a bit of current. Not wanting to risk over-taxing the single rectifier or reduce its life by running it near maximum all the time, I simply installed a second one in parallel with the first. I also mounted them to 1/16 inch thick aluminum brackets fastened to the bulkhead behind the instrument panel to keep them as cool as possible. Probably overkill but, so far so good. Dean Psiropoulos RV-6A N197DM -----Original Message----- From: "The Kuffels" <kuffel@cyberport.net> Subject: Ebus Diode Andy, << Question: I could run power from the main bus to either ~ terminal and power the Ebus? >> Yes, but this misses the purpose of connecting both AC terminals (~) to the source. The package has 4 diodes. It is used everywhere as an AC to DC rectifier. In theory you could use one high current diode but the cost of the same capacity is much higher than the 4 diode package due to the very high economy of scale from the 4 diode configuration even though we are "wasting" diodes. The mounting for this package is also simpler. The main enemy of semiconductors is heat. With the connection to two divides in parallel the current between them is divided, not evenly divided but still shared between the two. This spreads out the heat generation which makes the device more robust. << Powering both ~ terminals gains a little redundancy to power the Ebus? >> As is hopefully explained above, the reason for using both ~ terminals is spreading out the heat generation, not redundancy. If you have an Ebus current of 15 amps, even if one diode carries 10 amps and the other only 5 amps, you are stressing the part less than having all 15 amps going through 1 diode. In other words, there is a good reason for connecting the source to both ~ terminals which is what you should do. Tom Kuffel


    Message 29


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    Time: 09:41:56 PM PST US
    From: "David Lloyd" <skywagon@charter.net>
    Subject: Re: heat treat problem (solved)
    Bob, Thanks for the tip on heat treating and details... Dave _____________________________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 1:11 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: heat treat problem (solved) > <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > Heated to barely incandescent (turned lights out > to detect threshold) with Propane torch and then > let cool in air. > > Was delighted to find that my center punch actually > made a mark on it! Was able to drill the necessary > hole with no difficulty. > > > Bob . . . > > >




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