Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:23 AM - Re: Dual Batteries (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 07:11 AM - Re: Dual Batteries (user9253)
3. 02:09 PM - Questions for Bob after talking to B&C... (idleup)
4. 02:46 PM - S704-1 Relay Question (idleup)
5. 04:17 PM - Re: Dual Batteries (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 04:20 PM - Re: Re: Failed contactor (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 05:13 PM - Re: Questions for Bob after talking to B&C... (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 06:08 PM - Re: Re: Failed contactor (R. curtis)
9. 07:24 PM - Re: Questions for Bob after talking to B&C... (idleup)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Dual Batteries |
At 09:57 AM 4/27/2013, you wrote:
>
>
> > If you have dual, battery powered, electronic ignition
> > and single alternator, a second battery will improve system
> > reliability numbers.
>
>Bob,
>The above quote is from yesterday's AeroElectric daily digest. Did
>you inadvertently leave the word "NOT" out?
No, the architecture cited is right out of
Lightspeed's installation instructions for
dual electronic ignitions wherein he suggests
a diode isolated, second battery dedicated to
powering the second ignition system. It was this
this train of thought that prompted the ABMM (Aux
Battery Management Module) some years back.
But Z-13/8 offers a third source for power which
diminishes the value of a second battery. Of course,
P-mags go a step further and relieves the need
for any external sources for back-up power.
> Or are you recommending that aircraft with electrically dependent
> engines with single alternators have dual batteries?
Not as a blanket recommendation but the question
should be carefully considered. If you're flying
a day-vfr pleasure machine, perhaps your plan-B
with a carefully maintained battery is sufficient.
But Z-13/8 or the auxiliary battery lets one approach
the question with a 'less sharp' pencil.
> Modern AGM batteries are very unlikely to short out. Good
> workmanship will minimize the danger of an open circuit. In the
> event of an open battery circuit, the alternator is capable of
> providing power without the battery. I think that a second battery
> adds unnecessary weight, cost, and complexity.
Agreed. An SD-8 alternator is light, exceedingly
reliable and low cost of ownership. It beats
auxiliary batteries without even breathing hard.
Bob . . .
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Dual Batteries |
Thanks for the reply Bob.
A friend of mine is building an airplane and will install a Viking engine which
is electrically dependent. The Viking does not have two independent ignition
systems, although it does have a backup ECU in the same enclosure as the primary
ECU. The ECU has provisions for two power inputs. However, those two power
sources are connected together internal to the ECU. If both power sources
are turned on simultaneously, they will be shorted together. Thus an electrical
system isolating diode will effectively be shorted.
One solution is to use mechanically interlocked ECU power switches which might
not look good and will complicate operation, increasing pilot workload.
Another option is to use a legacy TC electrical system with the addition of a relay
(similar to E-Bus relay) to feed the opposite end of the power bus. The
goal is to keep it simple while having a backup in case any one component fails.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399602#399602
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| Subject: | Questions for Bob after talking to B&C... |
Bob,
B&C recommended I ask you these questions because they did not know the answer for them. As you may know, they have a document called the 504-500 linked here http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/504-500_REV_G.pdf. This document shows wiring of the S704-1 when using the PMR1C-14 regulator for the SD-8. Anyway, the wiring on the newest revision of Z-13/8 (R) conflicts with their wiring diagram on a couple of points, can you please help me understand which one I should use? Here are specifically my questions that remained unanswered after talking to them:
1. On Z-13/8 (R) you have a jumper going between the positive side of the coil
and the common pin. On their 505-500 they have nothing. On your older Z-13/8 (Q)
you had a diode. What is the reason for this and which one should I follow?
2. On Z-13/8 (R) you have wired the common on the relay with a 30A inline fuse.
On their 504-500 they used a 10A breaker. Both are wired using a 14AWG wire.
What is the reason for such a large fuse? Should I really use 30A on this?
I think that is it for now.
Thanks,
Matt
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399627#399627
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| Subject: | S704-1 Relay Question |
1. Am I correct that the S704-1 relay used for the backup alternator is wired to
the regulator with the N.O. lead?
2. Can I use the N.C. lead for an "Aux Alt Offline" light? I assume this will be
powered when the switch is off (or breaker tripped) right?
3. If I use an S704-1 relay for the E-Bus feed switch I would wire the Battery
bus to the N.O. as well correct? In Z-13/8 the common is wired to the E-Bus but
I am not sure if N.O. or N.C. is connected to the battery bus (it is not labeled)
4. Lastly, if I want to add a light for when the E-Bus feed switch is closed where
would I do that? it looks like when the switch is open the N.C. is powered
from the Main bus and the N.O. powered from the battery bus, so I do not see
where I would tap in a light that is only powered when the switch is closed. Should
I just wire the light at the switch to accomplish this instead of at the
relay (using Pin 1 on the switch?).
Thanks to anyone who can answer these questions.
Matt
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Dual Batteries |
On the way home from Wichita I had some further thoughts
on this thread . . .
>> Modern AGM batteries are very unlikely to short out. Good
>> workmanship will minimize the danger of an open circuit. In the
>> event of an open battery circuit, the alternator is capable of
>> providing power without the battery. I think that a second
>> battery adds unnecessary weight, cost, and complexity.
>
> Agreed. An SD-8 alternator is light, exceedingly
> reliable and low cost of ownership. It beats
> auxiliary batteries without even breathing hard.
Sometimes its hard to sift the bits-and-pieces
with consideration for the time frame of their
conception and popular incorporation. For example,
the original Endurance Bus was installed in a LongEz
with a design goal for sizing/maintaining a battery
and crafting an en route energy profile that offered
electrical endurance equal to or greater than fuel
aboard. Back then, the E-bus target loads were on the
order of 2 amps or less. Even then, you were likely
to arrive at destination with a depleted battery.
Then the vacuum pumps started disappearing and the
SD-8 was no longer limited to day-vfr power source
in a simple airplane . . . it became a heavy duty
player in the crafting of a much more robust endurance
mode. Now the e-bus could jump to 8A and you now arrive
with a battery held in total reserve for approach and
landing. A BIG change over the 20+ years.
The dual battery idea proffered by Lightspeed pre-dates the
e-bus. I think it pre-dates the great SVLA take-over
for aircraft batteries. I recall seeing two wet motor
cycle batteries installed in an 'Ez about 20 years
ago. The ABMM became a product on my website about 2003
and the article I did for Sport Aviation pre-dated the
product by a year or two.
Today, April 29, 2013 it is my considered opinion that
an architecture like Z-13/8 and Z-12 COMBINED with a
well maintained SLVA battery is EVERYTHING you need for
securing a reliable source of energy for ALL of the ship's
electro-whizzies. This assertion is offered in spite of
the fondest wishes for anyone's electro-whizzy installation
instructions suggesting or recommending adding any sort
of stand-by or back-up battery.
The elegant solution for an architecture calls for a minimum
parts count, lowest practical weight and lowest cost of
ownership while making sure that items necessary for comfortable
termination of flight have energy sources with higher
reliability than the device itself.
With one MSVLA (Maintained SLVA) battery, and two
alternators the likelihood of total loss of power is
a tiny fraction compared to loss of the gizmo you're
worrying about. You are more likely to benefit from having
two such gizmos than for having a plethora of "emergency"
power backups.
A favorite question I used to ask the seminar attendees
was, "What is the value of having lots of energy sources
for a landing light bulb that you KNOW has a 10-50 hour
service life?" If you often return home to a marginally
illuminated field after dark then having two landing lights
will offer a greater boost to system reliability than adding
another energy source. With the advent of LED landing
lights, perhaps that question needs to be updated.
So getting back to the opening paragraph of this posting,
let's not lose our grip on the manner in which many of
the ingredients that went to legacy recipes for success
came about . . . and be mindful of their applicability
in the current kitchen.
Does this mean there is no longer a valid reason to add
a second battery? No, some electro-whizzies like to reboot
during a starter inrush brown-out event. So having really
small, brown-out protection battery might still be part
of the elegant solution. On the other hand, one might simply
PLAN pre-flight procedures for powering these items
up after the engine is started. It's YOUR airplane, YOUR
decision. Do what works best for you.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Failed contactor |
At 07:45 AM 4/28/2013, you wrote:
><mrspudandcompany@verizon.net>
>
>
>>Yes I did. Lots of moisture damage. I've got it on my list of
>>things to do when I get back to the office on Monday. Will take
>>some pictures and report to the List
>
>
> Great! looking forward to the report.
>
> The contactor is original equipment from a 1977 C177B (36 years old).
> It was flown regularly, albeit not a lot. The aircraft has
> only a bit more than
> 1000 hrs total time. It was hangered for the first 1/2 of
> it's life, in Iowa, but has been
> tied down here in New England, about 30 miles from the
> coast, for the second
> 1/2 so far.
>
> If I can give any further info to help with the diagnosis,
> let me know.
Does this airplane have the 'floating cowl' where the
cowl is Dzuse fastened to shock mounts all around the
edge of the fire wall? If so, is the contactor mounted
on the fire wall?
Bob . . .
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Questions for Bob after talking to B&C... |
At 04:08 PM 4/29/2013, you wrote:
>
>Bob,
>
>B&C recommended I ask you these questions because they did not know
>the answer for them. As you may know, they have a document called
>the 504-500 linked here http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/504-500_REV_G.pdf.
>This document shows wiring of the S704-1 when using the PMR1C-14
>regulator for the SD-8. Anyway, the wiring on the newest revision of
>Z-13/8 (R) conflicts with their wiring diagram on a couple of
>points, can you please help me understand which one I should use?
>Here are specifically my questions that remained unanswered after
>talking to them:
>
>1. On Z-13/8 (R) you have a jumper going between the positive side
>of the coil and the common pin. On their 505-500 they have nothing.
>On your older Z-13/8 (Q) you had a diode. What is the reason for
>this and which one should I follow?
>
>2. On Z-13/8 (R) you have wired the common on the relay with a 30A
>inline fuse. On their 504-500 they used a 10A breaker. Both are
>wired using a 14AWG wire. What is the reason for such a large fuse?
>Should I really use 30A on this?
Either one works fine. The fuse was selected for
robustness . . . sorta like a mini current limiter.
Actually, if you'd like for your SD-8 to be self
exciting, you can wire it per
http://tinyurl.com/cdnqdf9
In that drawing I show s fusible link but a 20
to 30 amp inline fuse would be fine too.
Bob . . .
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Failed contactor |
> Does this airplane have the 'floating cowl' where the
> cowl is Dzuse fastened to shock mounts all around the
> edge of the fire wall? If so, is the contactor mounted
> on the fire wall?
The contactor is mounted on the battery box behind the
baggage compartment, so it is inside and somewhat
protected from the elements.
Roger
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Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Questions for Bob after talking to B&C... |
Bob,
Thanks for the response, but what about my question #1? should I do the diode between
the common and coil or just a standard jumper? I also notice on the Z25L
pdf that you linked to you have a diode between the N.O. pin and the Coil as
well. What are these for and which method should I use?
Thanks,
Matt
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