Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:08 AM - Re: Re: Questions for Bob after talking to B&C... (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 08:46 AM - Re: S704-1 Relay Question (nuckollsr)
3. 10:18 AM - Feedback Request on Push-to-talk circuit... (idleup)
4. 10:35 AM - Re: S704-1 Relay Question (idleup)
5. 10:37 AM - Re: Questions for Bob after talking to B&C... (idleup)
6. 12:45 PM - Re: Feedback Request on Push-to-talk circuit... (Vern Little)
7. 12:45 PM - Re: Re: S704-1 Relay Question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 01:24 PM - Re: Feedback Request on Push-to-talk circuit... (idleup)
9. 01:33 PM - Re: Feedback Request on Push-to-talk circuit... (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 02:40 PM - Re: Feedback Request on Push-to-talk circuit... (idleup)
11. 03:46 PM - Re: Re: S704-1 Relay Question (John & Sue Dehnert)
12. 05:44 PM - Re: Questions for Bob after talking to B&C... (user9253)
13. 08:44 PM - Re: Questions for Bob after talking to B&C... (idleup)
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Subject: | Re: Questions for Bob after talking to B&C... |
At 09:23 PM 4/29/2013, you wrote:
>
>Bob,
>
>Thanks for the response, but what about my question #1? should I do
>the diode between the common and coil or just a standard jumper? I
>also notice on the Z25L pdf that you linked to you have a diode
>between the N.O. pin and the Coil as well. What are these for and
>which method should I use?
I'm not trying to be obtuse. Your question seems
to offer the notion that there are errors of function
between the various drawings cited. They all function
as advertised with respect to the installation and
operation of an SD-8 alternator. Yes, there are
variations on a theme which are insignificant to
the function.
If you want me to pick one for you, then go with
the wiring shown in Z-13/8.
Bob . . .
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Subject: | Re: S704-1 Relay Question |
1. Am I correct that the S704-1 relay used for the backup alternator is wired to
the regulator with the N.O. lead?
There is nothing 'magic' about the N.O. terminal when you're using the relay
as a single pole, single throw switch. Wire
per the specific wiring diagram.
2. Can I use the N.C. lead for an "Aux Alt Offline" light? I assume this will be
powered when the switch is off (or breaker tripped) right?
Yes.
3. If I use an S704-1 relay for the E-Bus feed switch I would wire the Battery
bus to the N.O. as well correct? In Z-13/8 the common is wired to the E-Bus but
I am not sure if N.O. or N.C. is connected to the battery bus (it is not labeled)
See question #1.
4. Lastly, if I want to add a light for when the E-Bus feed switch is closed where
would I do that? it looks like when the switch is open the N.C. is powered
from the Main bus and the N.O. powered from the battery bus, so I do not see
where I would tap in a light that is only powered when the switch is closed. Should
I just wire the light at the switch to accomplish this instead of at the
relay (using Pin 1 on the switch?).
Why would you want to do this? When the E-bus switch is closed, all items powered
from the e-bus will be ON after the battery master is turned off. The E-Bus
Alt Feed switch is part of power distribution and should be located right next
to the ALT/BAT master. When parking the airplane, both switches would be DOWN.
If you really need a light, it would wire in parallel with the coil of the
e-bus alternate feed relay.
Bob . . .
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399668#399668
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Subject: | Feedback Request on Push-to-talk circuit... |
Would you guys be so kind as to tell me if the attach wiring diagram looks like
it will work? I just need a simple push to test circuit for a few LED's I have.
Thanks.
- Matt
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399682#399682
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/ptt_circuit_116.png
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Subject: | Re: S704-1 Relay Question |
To answer the question as to why I would want an E-Bus feed indicator light there
are a few reasons. Several VAF members have mentioned flying with the ebus
switch closed under normal operations since any failure of the main bus circuit
would then be automatically backed up. Another advantage is, when the ebus switch
is closed you eliminate the voltage drop thru the Schottkey diode, which
is not insignificant. Lastly, having the indicator would help to inadvertently
drain the battery by forgetting to switch it off after the master is switched
off. I understand your point that if you just make sure all the switches down
then you would avoid this, but if I have and extra LED in my annunciator then
it seems like a good application for using it.
Thanks for the response.
- Matt
nuckollsr wrote:
> 1. Am I correct that the S704-1 relay used for the backup alternator is wired
to the regulator with the N.O. lead?
>
> There is nothing 'magic' about the N.O. terminal when you're using the relay
as a single pole, single throw switch. Wire
> per the specific wiring diagram.
>
> 2. Can I use the N.C. lead for an "Aux Alt Offline" light? I assume this will
be powered when the switch is off (or breaker tripped) right?
>
> Yes.
>
> 3. If I use an S704-1 relay for the E-Bus feed switch I would wire the Battery
bus to the N.O. as well correct? In Z-13/8 the common is wired to the E-Bus
but I am not sure if N.O. or N.C. is connected to the battery bus (it is not labeled)
>
> See question #1.
>
> 4. Lastly, if I want to add a light for when the E-Bus feed switch is closed
where would I do that? it looks like when the switch is open the N.C. is powered
from the Main bus and the N.O. powered from the battery bus, so I do not see
where I would tap in a light that is only powered when the switch is closed.
Should I just wire the light at the switch to accomplish this instead of at the
relay (using Pin 1 on the switch?).
>
> Why would you want to do this? When the E-bus switch is closed, all items powered
from the e-bus will be ON after the battery master is turned off. The E-Bus
Alt Feed switch is part of power distribution and should be located right next
to the ALT/BAT master. When parking the airplane, both switches would be
DOWN. If you really need a light, it would wire in parallel with the coil of the
e-bus alternate feed relay.
>
> Bob . . .
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399683#399683
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Subject: | Re: Questions for Bob after talking to B&C... |
I was not trying to imply that one was incorrect, I just do not understand the
purpose of the diode in that application and whether it is necessary or not. B&C
support was unable to tell me what it was there for either and directed me
to ask you.
- Matt
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
> At 09:23 PM 4/29/2013, you wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Bob,
> >
> > Thanks for the response, but what about my question #1? should I do
> > the diode between the common and coil or just a standard jumper? I
> > also notice on the Z25L pdf that you linked to you have a diode
> > between the N.O. pin and the Coil as well. What are these for and
> > which method should I use?
> >
> >
>
> I'm not trying to be obtuse. Your question seems
> to offer the notion that there are errors of function
> between the various drawings cited. They all function
> as advertised with respect to the installation and
> operation of an SD-8 alternator. Yes, there are
> variations on a theme which are insignificant to
> the function.
>
> If you want me to pick one for you, then go with
> the wiring shown in Z-13/8.
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399684#399684
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Subject: | Re: Feedback Request on Push-to-talk circuit... |
Hi Matt, I'm happy to help with this.
First, I think that you need a few more isolating diodes. I don't know the
characteristics of some of the inputs, so there is a possibility that they
may provide a current path to ground (or power) when the push to test
function is active. If you want more details, I could draw it up, but I
think you can figure it out.
However, and this is a big issue, you have a push to test function that
checks whether reliable LEDs are functioning with an unreliable mechanical
device... the relay. It is 10 to 100 times more likely to fail than the
circuits you are testing. You are better off not having the push to test
function at all.
A better and more reliable solution if you want the test function is to get
one of these:
http://store.makerplane.org/annunciator-controller-il-4a/
It solves all of your problems.
Vern
-----Original Message-----
From: idleup
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 10:17 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Feedback Request on Push-to-talk circuit...
Would you guys be so kind as to tell me if the attach wiring diagram looks
like it will work? I just need a simple push to test circuit for a few LED's
I have. Thanks.
- Matt
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399682#399682
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/ptt_circuit_116.png
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: S704-1 Relay Question |
At 12:32 PM 4/30/2013, you wrote:
To answer the question as to why I would want an E-Bus feed indicator
light there are a few reasons. Several VAF members have mentioned
flying with the ebus switch closed under normal operations since any
failure of the main bus circuit would then be automatically backed
up. Another advantage is, when the ebus switch is closed you
eliminate the voltage drop thru the Schottkey diode, which is not
insignificant. Lastly, having the indicator would help to
inadvertently drain the battery by forgetting to switch it off after
the master is switched off. I understand your point that if you just
make sure all the switches down then you would avoid this, but if I
have and extra LED in my annunciator then it seems like a good
application for using it.
I am mystified as to what kind of failure
causes the main bus to go dark. The premise
that 'automatic backup' of an unqualified
failure mode is flawed.
The voltage drop across the diode IS insignificant.
DO-160 qualified electro-whizzies are shown to
function down to 11 volts or less. 11 volts is
end of battery life.
When you're operating with a failed alternator,
the e-bus alternate feed switch is closed and
ALL e-bus gizmos are now EXPECTED to function
as advertised BATTERY only . . . 12.5 down to 11.0
volts.
With the alternator running, the main bus is 14.2 or
greater. With even with a .7 volt rectifier drop,
the e-bus is supported at 13.5 or so . . . 1 volt
GREATER than the expected voltage for battery-only
ops. Hence, voltage drop in the diode has no observable
impact on system performance for devices powered from the
e-bus. Concerns relieved by flying with the alternate feed
switch closed are not based on demonstrable conditions.
Forget . . . forget????? Do you not use a checklist
for activities important the health, safety, comfort
and lowest cost of ownership for your airplane? The
e-bus alternate feed switch is usually pre-flight checked
before the master is turned on. Power up the nav/com,
get the ATIS and perhaps a clearance. Turn it back off,
power up the main bus and start the engine. The e-bus
alternate feed is not needed unless battery-only ops
become necessary hence not likely to be left on either
as a function of forgetfulness or lack of a documented
procedure.
Annunciators are a good thing for bringing CHANGES
or DEPARTURES from normal/ideal conditions to the attention
of a pilot. Low volts, low oil pressure, hydraulic
pressure low, etc. Lights that stay on during normal
ops are a potential distraction . . .this is why gear
up-lock lights are NEVER included on an annunciator
panel. If your e-bus alternate feed switch was closed
when you landed, then there should have been a reason
for it; a reason that indicates some repairs to the
electrical system are in order.
To my way of thinking, the darkest possible panel
is ideal for night flight. For improved night vision
and reduced reflections off the canopy . . . every
source of illumination you can dim to barely visible
or leave off entirely puts more risk-reduction points
on your side of the blackboard.
Bob . . .
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Subject: | Re: Feedback Request on Push-to-talk circuit... |
Thank you Vern, I appreciate your responding. I did not know the relay was such
an unreliable device. I really do not want to spend $150 to test some LED lights
(I am going to have more than 4). None of them are attached to sensors, they
are all either power or ground switched 12v LEDs. I was going to look at the
schematics for the device you linked too but the link to the open source files
is broken, do you know a link that works?
Also, do you think that a transistor based solution is more reliable than a relay?
A while back Bob posted a drawing he did that used two transistors and four
resistors to achieve the same one button design I did with a relay (see attached).
Also, would the isolating diodes you referred to go on the other input line? I
saw a design with those in there but did not understand why they were necessary...
Let me know what you think...
- Matt
sprocket(at)vx-aviation.c wrote:
> Hi Matt, I'm happy to help with this.
>
> First, I think that you need a few more isolating diodes. I don't know the
> characteristics of some of the inputs, so there is a possibility that they
> may provide a current path to ground (or power) when the push to test
> function is active. If you want more details, I could draw it up, but I
> think you can figure it out.
>
> However, and this is a big issue, you have a push to test function that
> checks whether reliable LEDs are functioning with an unreliable mechanical
> device... the relay. It is 10 to 100 times more likely to fail than the
> circuits you are testing. You are better off not having the push to test
> function at all.
>
> A better and more reliable solution if you want the test function is to get
> one of these:
>
> http://store.makerplane.org/annunciator-controller-il-4a/
>
> It solves all of your problems.
>
> Vern
>
> --
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399698#399698
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/one_button_ptt_for_pu_pd_annunciation_cluster_177.pdf
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Subject: | Re: Feedback Request on Push-to-talk circuit... |
At 12:17 PM 4/30/2013, you wrote:
>
>Would you guys be so kind as to tell me if the attach wiring diagram
>looks like it will work? I just need a simple push to test circuit
>for a few LED's I have. Thanks.
>
>- Matt
>
>
Why are you doing press to test on LEDs?
Incandescent bulbs as warning devices begged
for press to test given that their demonstrated
service life was a fraction of that for the
airplane. On the other hand, LEDs will outlive the machine.
All of those LEDs can be tested during normal
pre-flight procedures. In other words, NOT
seeing a light when it is expected to be operating
is a more relevant test than having the light
respond to a press-to-test switch.
Press-to-test circuits test a button, a bulb
and in your example, a relay. The fact that the
light DID come on says nothing about the electro-
whizzy that drives it.
On the other hand, seeing one of those lights
illuminate when it is EXPECTED to do so is 100%
assurance for both the bulb and the integrity
of the annunciator signal that drives it.
Bob . . .
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Subject: | Re: Feedback Request on Push-to-talk circuit... |
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
> At 12:17 PM 4/30/2013, you wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Would you guys be so kind as to tell me if the attach wiring diagram
> > looks like it will work? I just need a simple push to test circuit
> > for a few LED's I have. Thanks.
> >
> > - Matt
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> Why are you doing press to test on LEDs?
>
> Incandescent bulbs as warning devices begged
> for press to test given that their demonstrated
> service life was a fraction of that for the
> airplane. On the other hand, LEDs will outlive the machine.
>
> All of those LEDs can be tested during normal
> pre-flight procedures. In other words, NOT
> seeing a light when it is expected to be operating
> is a more relevant test than having the light
> respond to a press-to-test switch.
>
> Press-to-test circuits test a button, a bulb
> and in your example, a relay. The fact that the
> light DID come on says nothing about the electro-
> whizzy that drives it.
>
> On the other hand, seeing one of those lights
> illuminate when it is EXPECTED to do so is 100%
> assurance for both the bulb and the integrity
> of the annunciator signal that drives it.
>
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
The best answer I could give you is because I thought you were supposed to have
a "Push to test" function for your annunciators. If it is not necessary for LED's
than I am more than happy to ditch the whole thing. Less parts, less complexity...
- Matt
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399704#399704
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Subject: | Re: S704-1 Relay Question |
If you want a E-Bus feed indicator light wire the low oil pressure warning
light through the E-Bus.
John.
----- Original Message -----
From: "idleup" <matt@mattandmel.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2013 3:32 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: S704-1 Relay Question
>
> To answer the question as to why I would want an E-Bus feed indicator
> light there are a few reasons. Several VAF members have mentioned flying
> with the ebus switch closed under normal operations since any failure of
> the main bus circuit would then be automatically backed up. Another
> advantage is, when the ebus switch is closed you eliminate the voltage
> drop thru the Schottkey diode, which is not insignificant. Lastly, having
> the indicator would help to inadvertently drain the battery by forgetting
> to switch it off after the master is switched off. I understand your point
> that if you just make sure all the switches down then you would avoid
> this, but if I have and extra LED in my annunciator then it seems like a
> good application for using it.
>
> Thanks for the response.
>
> - Matt
>
>
> nuckollsr wrote:
>> 1. Am I correct that the S704-1 relay used for the backup alternator is
>> wired to the regulator with the N.O. lead?
>>
>> There is nothing 'magic' about the N.O. terminal when you're using the
>> relay as a single pole, single throw switch. Wire
>> per the specific wiring diagram.
>>
>> 2. Can I use the N.C. lead for an "Aux Alt Offline" light? I assume this
>> will be powered when the switch is off (or breaker tripped) right?
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> 3. If I use an S704-1 relay for the E-Bus feed switch I would wire the
>> Battery bus to the N.O. as well correct? In Z-13/8 the common is wired to
>> the E-Bus but I am not sure if N.O. or N.C. is connected to the battery
>> bus (it is not labeled)
>>
>> See question #1.
>>
>> 4. Lastly, if I want to add a light for when the E-Bus feed switch is
>> closed where would I do that? it looks like when the switch is open the
>> N.C. is powered from the Main bus and the N.O. powered from the battery
>> bus, so I do not see where I would tap in a light that is only powered
>> when the switch is closed. Should I just wire the light at the switch to
>> accomplish this instead of at the relay (using Pin 1 on the switch?).
>>
>> Why would you want to do this? When the E-bus switch is closed, all items
>> powered from the e-bus will be ON after the battery master is turned off.
>> The E-Bus Alt Feed switch is part of power distribution and should be
>> located right next to the ALT/BAT master. When parking the airplane,
>> both switches would be DOWN. If you really need a light, it would wire in
>> parallel with the coil of the e-bus alternate feed relay.
>>
>> Bob . . .
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399683#399683
>
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Questions for Bob after talking to B&C... |
Matt,
Bob's and B&C's drawings do not conflict. They are different. There are many
different ways to wire an aircraft. I suggest that you use one of Bob's drawings
because his are for the whole electrical system, not just a part of it.
Z-13/8 Rev Q has two diodes connected to the dynamo relay. These diodes potentially
provide power to the relay from two sources: 1. The main power bus. 2.
The dynamo. The diodes isolate the two sources from each other until the relay
is energized
Z-13/8 Rev R does not have diodes.
You asked which drawing to use. I suggest Z-13/8 Rev R with a minor change:
Move the jumper from the common terminal of the dynamo relay to the normally open
terminal. The reason is that there could be a failure mode when there is
no power available at the main power bus to operate the dynamo relay. There will
always be power available from the dynamo. And if there isn't, then there
is no reason to turn the dynamo relay on. Perhaps Bob will comment on this suggestion.
> 1. Am I correct that the S704-1 relay used for the backup alternator is wired
to the regulator with the N.O. lead?
Yes
> 2. Can I use the N.C. lead for an "Aux Alt Offline" light? I assume this will
be powered when the switch is off (or breaker tripped) right?
Yes and Yes. But why have a light? It will always be on. Lights should warn
of an unusual situation.
> 3. If I use an S704-1 relay for the E-Bus feed switch I would wire the Battery
bus to the N.O. as well correct?
Yes
The two parallel lines below the relay coil represent the metal core of the relay.
When the coil is energized, the core becomes a magnet and pulls the movable
contact towards the core and towards the normally open contact. So the contact
closest to the core is N.O.
> 4. Lastly, if I want to add a light for when the E-Bus feed switch is closed
where would I do that? it looks like when the switch is open the N.C. is powered
from the Main bus and the N.O. powered from the battery bus, so I do not see
where I would tap in a light that is only powered when the switch is closed.
Should I just wire the light at the switch to accomplish this instead of at the
relay (using Pin 1 on the switch?).
>
I think that a light will be useful to warn you if the E-Bus switch has been
left on after shutdown. You do not want the battery to run down. You are correct
that there will be power on both the N.O. and COM relay terminals. A light
can not be connected there. And a light can not be connected to terminal 1
of the switch because it will be in series with the relay coil. In that case,
the light could illuminate dimly with the switch off. Or the relay might not
shut off with the switch. Of course the light will not illuminate with the
switch on because the light will then have ground connected to both of its terminals.
Use a DPST or a DPDT switch for the E-Bus relay. One half of the switch
will operate the relay and the other half will operate the light.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399721#399721
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Subject: | Re: Questions for Bob after talking to B&C... |
user9253 wrote:
> Matt,
> Bob's and B&C's drawings do not conflict. They are different. There are many
different ways to wire an aircraft. I suggest that you use one of Bob's drawings
because his are for the whole electrical system, not just a part of it.
> Z-13/8 Rev Q has two diodes connected to the dynamo relay. These diodes potentially
provide power to the relay from two sources: 1. The main power bus. 2.
The dynamo. The diodes isolate the two sources from each other until the relay
is energized
> Z-13/8 Rev R does not have diodes.
> You asked which drawing to use. I suggest Z-13/8 Rev R with a minor change:
Move the jumper from the common terminal of the dynamo relay to the normally
open terminal. The reason is that there could be a failure mode when there is
no power available at the main power bus to operate the dynamo relay. There
will always be power available from the dynamo. And if there isn't, then there
is no reason to turn the dynamo relay on. Perhaps Bob will comment on this
suggestion.
>
> > 1. Am I correct that the S704-1 relay used for the backup alternator is wired
to the regulator with the N.O. lead?
>
> Yes
>
> > 2. Can I use the N.C. lead for an "Aux Alt Offline" light? I assume this will
be powered when the switch is off (or breaker tripped) right?
>
> Yes and Yes. But why have a light? It will always be on. Lights should warn
of an unusual situation.
>
> > 3. If I use an S704-1 relay for the E-Bus feed switch I would wire the Battery
bus to the N.O. as well correct?
>
> Yes
> The two parallel lines below the relay coil represent the metal core of the relay.
When the coil is energized, the core becomes a magnet and pulls the movable
contact towards the core and towards the normally open contact. So the contact
closest to the core is N.O.
>
> > 4. Lastly, if I want to add a light for when the E-Bus feed switch is closed
where would I do that? it looks like when the switch is open the N.C. is powered
from the Main bus and the N.O. powered from the battery bus, so I do not
see where I would tap in a light that is only powered when the switch is closed.
Should I just wire the light at the switch to accomplish this instead of at
the relay (using Pin 1 on the switch?).
> >
>
> I think that a light will be useful to warn you if the E-Bus switch has been
left on after shutdown. You do not want the battery to run down. You are correct
that there will be power on both the N.O. and COM relay terminals. A light
can not be connected there. And a light can not be connected to terminal
1 of the switch because it will be in series with the relay coil. In that case,
the light could illuminate dimly with the switch off. Or the relay might
not shut off with the switch. Of course the light will not illuminate with the
switch on because the light will then have ground connected to both of its terminals.
Use a DPST or a DPDT switch for the E-Bus relay. One half of the switch
will operate the relay and the other half will operate the light.
> Joe
Thanks Joe, What happens if the Aux alternator is turned on while under normal
operations and both alternators are feeding the electrical system at one time?
As for the ebus feed light, what about putting the anode of the LED on the N.O.
contact of the relay (coming from the battery bus) and the cathode on the side
of the coil where the switch is connected?
Thanks,
Matt
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