Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:18 AM - Re: Garmin GNS430 goes into setup mode - screen with colored boxes (Sacha)
2. 06:31 AM - Re: Contactor clicks but doesn't make electrical contact (Eric M. Jones)
3. 07:03 AM - Re: Contactor clicks but doesn't make electrical contact (R. curtis)
4. 07:21 AM - Re: Re: Contactor clicks but doesn't make electrical contact (R. curtis)
5. 09:13 AM - Re: Re: Contactor clicks but doesn't make electrical contact (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 12:00 PM - Re: Re: Contactor clicks but doesn't make elec trical contact (jan)
7. 01:49 PM - Overactive Power Supply (Dave Saylor)
8. 03:31 PM - Re: Overactive Power Supply (Daniel Hooper)
9. 03:52 PM - Re: Overactive Power Supply (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 03:54 PM - Re: Contactor clicks but doesn't make elec trical contact (Eric M. Jones)
11. 04:53 PM - Re: Overactive Power Supply (rayj)
12. 05:40 PM - Re: Overactive Power Supply (Dave Saylor)
13. 05:40 PM - Re: Overactive Power Supply (Dave Saylor)
14. 10:29 PM - Re: Garmin GNS430 goes into setup mode - screen with colored boxes (Sacha)
15. 10:57 PM - Re: Garmin GNS430 goes into setup mode - screen with colored boxes (Tim Andres)
16. 11:36 PM - Re: Garmin GNS430 goes into setup mode - screen with colored boxes (Sacha)
Message 1
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Subject: | Garmin GNS430 goes into setup mode - screen with |
colored boxes
Garmin support says that the unit is booting in Test mode and suggested to
double check whether pin 75 of the 4001 connector is grounded... (I hope it
is, otherwise i might be in for some repair co$ts)...
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Contactor clicks but doesn't make electrical contact |
I don't agree that this is just normal wear and tear. The Type-70 contactor is
unsuited to use in aircraft, and the proof is in the photos. (Good pix Bob!).
I don't see any mention of coil suppressors. There should be some and they should
be bidirectional zeners (or at least not p/n diodes). Potter and Brumfield,
etc. have campaigned for this for years. The reason for coil suppression is that
it speeds up opening and minimizes arcing and welding when opening.
Better yet, check the data sheet for these contactors and see that they have a
maximum ambient of 122 degrees F., and G-sensitive, not sealed, high hold current,
poor capability opening under load...then ask yourself why you are using
them. They're cheap? Clique and Claque says, "It the stingy man who pays the most."
I'd go with using either NO contactors, solid state contactors, or Kilovac EV200
or Gigavac MX-11 or similar. There are lots of good products out there.
Hint: Buy EV200's where the leads are too short. It is simple to unscrew the cover
and reinstall long leads.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=400190#400190
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Subject: | Re: Contactor clicks but doesn't make electrical |
contact
> Thanks for sending me the carcass. I've disassembled the
> remains. The failure mode in this case is quite clear
> and consistent with your narrative for intermittent
> functionality.
Bob,
Your time and effort Is much appreciated.
Along with the analysis of the defect, your explanation
of the workings, connections, and why the failure,
was quite enlitening.
Thanks,
Roger
--
Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen
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Subject: | Re: Contactor clicks but doesn't make electrical |
contact
The Type-70 contactor is unsuited to use in aircraft, and the proof is in
the photos. (Good pix Bob!).
Eric,
Are you saying that this is NOT the original contactor installed by Cessna
Aircraft Corp. in the new, as built aircraft?
Roger
--
Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen
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Subject: | Re: Contactor clicks but doesn't make electrical |
contact
At 08:30 AM 5/9/2013, you wrote:
>
>I don't agree that this is just normal wear and tear. The Type-70
>contactor is unsuited to use in aircraft, and the proof is in the
>photos. (Good pix Bob!).
But Eric, I think we were told that this was the
factory installed contactor . . . Given the
demonstrated longevity of this part and
the fact that it failed gracefully suggests
that the contactor not over stressed nor
was it mis-applied to tasks beyond design goals
of the manufacturer.
>I don't see any mention of coil suppressors. There should be some
>and they should be bidirectional zeners (or at least not p/n
>diodes). Potter and Brumfield, etc. have campaigned for this for
>years. The reason for coil suppression is that it speeds up opening
>and minimizes arcing and welding when opening.
Yes you have complained . . . and I have explained
and conducted demonstrations on the bench to (1)
show that there IS value for coil suppression with
respect to life of the battery master switch and
(2) shown that such suppression in the form of
plain vanilla rectifiers -OR- zeners has no measurable
influence on service life of the contactor itself.
These contactors, applied as battery contactors
in airplanes, DO NOT MAKE or BREAK heavy loads.
As long as you don't drown them in water or oil,
their service life is exemplary with respect to their
cost.
I have further debunked the notion that contacts
weld "on opening". I've studied many cases of relay
failures for sticking contacts and deduced the
"on closure" sticking modes for relays both by
analysis of carcasses -AND- laboratory experiment.
Failure to close is ALWAYS a function of contact
contamination or degradation due to mis-application.
I've repeatedly measured the contact spreading
velocity of relays and contactors with plain
vanilla diode coil suppression, sophisticated
coil suppression and NO suppression and found
no practical differences. The various modes
might affect contact opening DELAY but not
the spreading velocity. Go to the bench, get
out your 'scope and prove these assertions
wrong.
This contactor WAS fitted with a plain-vanilla
rectifier as a coil spike suppressor. What evidence
is visible in the photos that an alternative form
of suppression would have made a difference?
>Better yet, check the data sheet for these contactors and see that
>they have a maximum ambient of 122 degrees F., and G-sensitive, not
>sealed, high hold current, poor capability opening under load...then
>ask yourself why you are using them. They're cheap? Clique and
>Claque says, "It the stingy man who pays the most."
What evidence do you see in the photos that suggest
this part was thermally abused? What evidence do
you see that suggests this contactor failed
to function for any reason other than the
'dusting of contact surfaces' with materials
detrimental to good contact (I.e. spring rust)?
>I'd go with using either NO contactors, solid state contactors, or
>Kilovac EV200 or Gigavac MX-11 or similar. There are lots of good
>products out there.
>
>Hint: Buy EV200's where the leads are too short. It is simple to
>unscrew the cover and reinstall long leads.
An what is the return on investment? There have
been hundreds of thousands of airplanes fitted with
contactors not unlike the device under discussion.
If the airplane is fitted with an e-bus, then
contactor failures of any nature have a back-up
plan for comfortable termination of flight. Even
THIS contactor did not produce an in-flight
condition that threatened life, limb or aluminum.
Indeed, battery contactors are a maintenance
item not unlike tires, switches, light bulbs,
batteries, oil, Plexiglas windows, paint and
the occasional smoothing of nicks in the prop.
If one were to get a prop crafted from say,
titanium, perhaps one could dispense with
the file.
Yes, a $high$ contactor might prove to offer
a longer service life but it has zero effect
on system reliability. That vulnerability
to g-loading is another widely circulated
myth having no foundation in physics or practical
application.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Contactor clicks but doesn't make elec trical |
contact
Eric,
Question regarding EV200 - Would you use the short model that has the
'economizer' built in ?
Or the larger (taller) version that has no economizer ?
Jan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric M.
Jones
Sent: 09 May 2013 14:30
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Contactor clicks but doesn't make electrical
contact
<emjones@charter.net>
I don't agree that this is just normal wear and tear. The Type-70 contactor
is unsuited to use in aircraft, and the proof is in the photos. (Good pix
Bob!).
I don't see any mention of coil suppressors. There should be some and they
should be bidirectional zeners (or at least not p/n diodes). Potter and
Brumfield, etc. have campaigned for this for years. The reason for coil
suppression is that it speeds up opening and minimizes arcing and welding
when opening.
Better yet, check the data sheet for these contactors and see that they have
a maximum ambient of 122 degrees F., and G-sensitive, not sealed, high hold
current, poor capability opening under load...then ask yourself why you are
using them. They're cheap? Clique and Claque says, "It the stingy man who
pays the most."
I'd go with using either NO contactors, solid state contactors, or Kilovac
EV200 or Gigavac MX-11 or similar. There are lots of good products out
there.
Hint: Buy EV200's where the leads are too short. It is simple to unscrew the
cover and reinstall long leads.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=400190#400190
Message 7
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Subject: | Overactive Power Supply |
We have a very expensive power supply/battery charger. It's for aircraft
use, purchaed from an aircraft vendor, and even has a picture of an
airplane on it.
http://www.bycansystems.com/products/avionics/Blue_Angel.html
I think I mentioned here before that it overcharges Odyssey batteries, at
about 15.3V. The manufacturer recently provided us with a kit to lower the
voltage slightly. The kit consists of a heavy aluminum plate supporting
three huge 15 ohm/50W resistors wired in parallel. The whole thing gets
wired across the output of the charger to act as an additional load to drop
the voltage into the acceptable Odyssey range.
I tried it on some 12V batteries and it works fine. But on a 24V battery
(not an Odyssey) , it got so hot that it let the magic smoke out of the
feed wires to the resistor plate. Plus it's a personnel hazard and it
smells bad.
The manufacturer said "huh, that's weird" and sent me another resistor
plate.
Before I install it for round II, does this sound like a reasonable
approach, or should I just expect the same results?
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Overactive Power Supply |
Wow, those guys know what 'brute force' means..
Maybe a dumb question, but do you need to drop the voltage for the 24v non-o
dyssey battery?
Daniel
On May 9, 2013, at 3:47 PM, Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com> w
rote:
> We have a very expensive power supply/battery charger. It's for aircraft u
se, purchaed from an aircraft vendor, and even has a picture of an airplane o
n it.
>
> http://www.bycansystems.com/products/avionics/Blue_Angel.html
>
> I think I mentioned here before that it overcharges Odyssey batteries, at a
bout 15.3V. The manufacturer recently provided us with a kit to lower the v
oltage slightly. The kit consists of a heavy aluminum plate supporting thre
e huge 15 ohm/50W resistors wired in parallel. The whole thing gets wired a
cross the output of the charger to act as an additional load to drop the vol
tage into the acceptable Odyssey range.
>
> I tried it on some 12V batteries and it works fine. But on a 24V battery (
not an Odyssey) , it got so hot that it let the magic smoke out of the feed w
ires to the resistor plate. Plus it's a personnel hazard and it smells bad.
>
> The manufacturer said "huh, that's weird" and sent me another resistor pla
te.
>
> Before I install it for round II, does this sound like a reasonable approa
ch, or should I just expect the same results?
>
> Dave Saylor
> 831-750-0284 CL
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Overactive Power Supply |
At 03:47 PM 5/9/2013, you wrote:
>We have a very expensive power supply/battery
>charger. =C2 It's for aircraft use, purchaed from
>an aircraft vendor, and even has a picture of an airplane on it.
>
><http://www.bycansystems.com/products/avionics/Blue_Angel.html>http://www.b
ycansystems.com/products/avionics/Blue_Angel.html
>
>I think I mentioned here before that it
>overcharges Odyssey batteries, at about 15.3V. =C2
>The manufacturer recently provided us with a kit
>to lower the voltage slightly. =C2 The kit
>consists of a heavy aluminum plate supporting
>three huge 15 ohm/50W resistors wired in
>parallel. =C2 The whole thing gets wired across
>the output of the charger to act as an
>additional load to drop the voltage into the acceptable Odyssey range.
>
>I tried it on some 12V batteries and it works
>fine. =C2 But on a 24V battery (not an=C2 Odyssey)=C2
>, it got so hot that it let the magic smoke out
>of the feed wires to the resistor plate. =C2 Plus
>it's a=C2 personnel=C2 hazard and it smells bad.
>
>The=C2 manufacturer=C2 said "huh, that's=C2 weird" and
>sent me another resistor plate.
>
>Before I install it for round II, does this
>sound like a reasonable approach, or should I just expect the same results?
Man! This is sad. There is no reason whatsoever
for this kind of behavior. Getting a smart charger
to behave is child's play. External band-aids are
inexcusable.
Oh fooey, I just read the fine print. "Ferro-resonant
regulation" . . . by today's standards this is just
one step above no regulation and certainly not controlled
for accurate battery charging. This is 1940's technology.
It would be really interesting to see what's inside
this 'magic' box. Maybe I ought to design one. I'm
thinking of a charger that one could plug into
a computer USB port to set charge current, plateau
voltage for bulk charge, trigger current level for
recession to sustaining voltage, and sustaining
voltage. A kind of Super Battery Minder with
flexibility to charge ANY svla battery up to and
including 24 volts.
I've got another program on the back burner to
do a new alternator regulator that calls for
some cross-over technology with the battery
charger.
Of course that doesn't help you right now. Is
this the only charger you have right now? It's
okay for ground power but as you've discovered,
NOT a good charger. How much current do you NEED
for ground power service? As a general rule,
ground power carts for aircraft should be either
13 or 26 volt output and NEVER used to charge
a battery. Battery chargers should be 'smart'
devices that do the SVLA three-stroke waltz . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/Charger_Performance/Ide
CHARGE, BULK, SUSTAIN . . .
Of course it's possible to build a device that will
DO both. You can float a battery across a 13/26v ground
power supply -OR- do the 3-stroke waltz on a stand-alone
battery . . . but not both at the same time.
The device you have seems entirely unsuited to battery
charging.
Bob . . .
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Contactor clicks but doesn't make elec trical contact |
> Eric, Are you saying that this is NOT the original contactor installed by Cessna
Aircraft Corp. in the new, as built aircraft?
> Roger
I spent many hours tracking down the designers of this Stancor-White-Rogers Tyco
Type-70. The only info that remains available seems to be the current specs.
The available newly produced Type-70 specs simply make it unsuitable. Will it
work, Yes. Will it fail? Yes, sooner than you'd like. It is entirely possible
that Cessna had a custom model. Is Cessna still using these? Possibly, but certificated
a/c tend to use old original technology until it bleeds. There's no
reason you should follow them.
> Question regarding EV200 - Would you use the short model that has the economizer
built in? Or the larger (taller) version that has no economizer ? Jan
Go with the economizer. The Kilovac Czonkas are made in many types. There is a
marine model too that is perfectly usable. But I don't have stock in Kilovac.
There are many makers of newer stuff.
For my airplane, I'll use a Flaming River Battery switch if I can and an EV200
otherwise....
ps: Guess how Kilovac and Gigavac clamp coil voltages generated from the collapsing
magnetic field? That's right...bidirectional zeners.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=400215#400215
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Overactive Power Supply |
Bob,
If you're looking at something that plugs into a USB port, look and the
Raspberry Pi computer and include it in the charger.
do not archive
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
On 05/09/2013 05:51 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 03:47 PM 5/9/2013, you wrote:
>> We have a very expensive power supply/battery charger. It's for
>> aircraft use, purchaed from an aircraft vendor, and even has a
>> picture of an airplane on it.
>>
>> http://www.bycansystems.com/products/avionics/Blue_Angel.html
>> <http://www.bycansystems.com/products/avionics/Blue_Angel.html>
>>
>> I think I mentioned here before that it overcharges Odyssey
>> batteries, at about 15.3V. The manufacturer recently provided us
>> with a kit to lower the voltage slightly. The kit consists of a
>> heavy aluminum plate supporting three huge 15 ohm/50W resistors wired
>> in parallel. The whole thing gets wired across the output of the
>> charger to act as an additional load to drop the voltage into the
>> acceptable Odyssey range.
>>
>> I tried it on some 12V batteries and it works fine. But on a 24V
>> battery (not an Odyssey) , it got so hot that it let the magic
>> smoke out of the feed wires to the resistor plate. Plus it's a
>> personnel hazard and it smells bad.
>>
>> The manufacturer said "huh, that's weird" and sent me another
>> resistor plate.
>>
>> Before I install it for round II, does this sound like a reasonable
>> approach, or should I just expect the same results?
>
> Man! This is sad. There is no reason whatsoever
> for this kind of behavior. Getting a smart charger
> to behave is child's play. External band-aids are
> inexcusable.
>
> Oh fooey, I just read the fine print. "Ferro-resonant
> regulation" . . . by today's standards this is just
> one step above no regulation and certainly not controlled
> for accurate battery charging. This is 1940's technology.
>
> It would be really interesting to see what's inside
> this 'magic' box. Maybe I ought to design one. I'm
> thinking of a charger that one could plug into
> a computer USB port to set charge current, plateau
> voltage for bulk charge, trigger current level for
> recession to sustaining voltage, and sustaining
> voltage. A kind of Super Battery Minder with
> flexibility to charge ANY svla battery up to and
> including 24 volts.
>
> I've got another program on the back burner to
> do a new alternator regulator that calls for
> some cross-over technology with the battery
> charger.
>
> Of course that doesn't help you right now. Is
> this the only charger you have right now? It's
> okay for ground power but as you've discovered,
> NOT a good charger. How much current do you NEED
> for ground power service? As a general rule,
> ground power carts for aircraft should be either
> 13 or 26 volt output and NEVER used to charge
> a battery. Battery chargers should be 'smart'
> devices that do the SVLA three-stroke waltz . . .
>
> http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/Charger_Performance/Ide
> CHARGE, BULK, SUSTAIN . . .
>
> Of course it's possible to build a device that will
> DO both. You can float a battery across a 13/26v ground
> power supply -OR- do the 3-stroke waltz on a stand-alone
> battery . . . but not both at the same time.
>
> The device you have seems entirely unsuited to battery
> charging.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Overactive Power Supply |
I think we'll just give up on using it to charge. I'll disable the charge
mode and just use it as a power supply.
I've seen what's inside. I'll send you a couple pictures. It weighs a
ton. Well, 46 lbs according to the web page.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Daniel Hooper <enginerdy@gmail.com> wrote:
> Wow, those guys know what 'brute force' means..
>
> Maybe a dumb question, but do you need to drop the voltage for the 24v
> non-odyssey battery?
>
> Daniel
>
> On May 9, 2013, at 3:47 PM, Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> We have a very expensive power supply/battery charger. It's for aircraft
> use, purchaed from an aircraft vendor, and even has a picture of an
> airplane on it.
>
> http://www.bycansystems.com/products/avionics/Blue_Angel.html
>
> I think I mentioned here before that it overcharges Odyssey batteries, at
> about 15.3V. The manufacturer recently provided us with a kit to lower the
> voltage slightly. The kit consists of a heavy aluminum plate supporting
> three huge 15 ohm/50W resistors wired in parallel. The whole thing gets
> wired across the output of the charger to act as an additional load to drop
> the voltage into the acceptable Odyssey range.
>
> I tried it on some 12V batteries and it works fine. But on a 24V battery
> (not an Odyssey) , it got so hot that it let the magic smoke out of the
> feed wires to the resistor plate. Plus it's a personnel hazard and it
> smells bad.
>
> The manufacturer said "huh, that's weird" and sent me another resistor
> plate.
>
> Before I install it for round II, does this sound like a reasonable
> approach, or should I just expect the same results?
>
> Dave Saylor
> 831-750-0284 CL
>
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Overactive Power Supply |
I don't have a need to adjust the 24V output. But the connector is common
with the 12V side and I'm hoping to avoid some switching scenario that
shuts off the resistors for 24V. The heat is present but manageable in 12V
mode. I put a piece of insulation over the hot area and never saw any
smoke until we tried 24V.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Daniel Hooper <enginerdy@gmail.com> wrote:
> Wow, those guys know what 'brute force' means..
>
> Maybe a dumb question, but do you need to drop the voltage for the 24v
> non-odyssey battery?
>
> Daniel
>
> On May 9, 2013, at 3:47 PM, Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> We have a very expensive power supply/battery charger. It's for aircraft
> use, purchaed from an aircraft vendor, and even has a picture of an
> airplane on it.
>
> http://www.bycansystems.com/products/avionics/Blue_Angel.html
>
> I think I mentioned here before that it overcharges Odyssey batteries, at
> about 15.3V. The manufacturer recently provided us with a kit to lower the
> voltage slightly. The kit consists of a heavy aluminum plate supporting
> three huge 15 ohm/50W resistors wired in parallel. The whole thing gets
> wired across the output of the charger to act as an additional load to drop
> the voltage into the acceptable Odyssey range.
>
> I tried it on some 12V batteries and it works fine. But on a 24V battery
> (not an Odyssey) , it got so hot that it let the magic smoke out of the
> feed wires to the resistor plate. Plus it's a personnel hazard and it
> smells bad.
>
> The manufacturer said "huh, that's weird" and sent me another resistor
> plate.
>
> Before I install it for round II, does this sound like a reasonable
> approach, or should I just expect the same results?
>
> Dave Saylor
> 831-750-0284 CL
>
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 14
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Subject: | Garmin GNS430 goes into setup mode - screen with |
colored boxes
Turns out that removing the data card, rebooting the unit and then
re-inserting it did the trick; just as Garmin support suggested! Phew...
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: Garmin GNS430 goes into setup mode - screen with |
colored boxes
Sacha, can you re cap this thread for me? I must have missed it and I have had
my 430W freeze on boot up a few weeks ago. I'm just wondering if you can elaborate,
when this happened I suspected my data card may have been the cause, that
or heat from sitting out all day in the sun.
Thanks!
Tim
Sent from my iPad
On May 9, 2013, at 10:27 PM, "Sacha" <uuccio@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Turns out that removing the data card, rebooting the unit and then
> re-inserting it did the trick; just as Garmin support suggested! Phew...
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 16
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Subject: | Garmin GNS430 goes into setup mode - screen with |
colored boxes
Hi Tim,
Sure. I changed one of the wires on the 4001 connector on my GNS430 and
when I put everything back and powered up the GNS430, I got a strange
startup screen with lots of concentric colored boxes. The unit appeared to
be in SETUP mode because when I turn the right dial I got the other setup
screens. But no matter how many times I tied it would not startup normally.
After posting to the list, I also emailed Garmin support. Within hours, I
got the following reply from them: " What you are seeing is Test mode. Try
first removing the data cards and see if this will clear it it. If not you
may have Pin 75 OF plug 4001 grounded. If this is not the case then you
have a unit problem and it will need to be repaired."
Getting the unit fixed would probably have been a four figure expense
including shipping, so I'm quite happy that its still working!
Rgds
sacha
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