---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 05/09/13: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:18 AM - Re: Garmin GNS430 goes into setup mode - screen with colored boxes (Sacha) 2. 06:31 AM - Re: Contactor clicks but doesn't make electrical contact (Eric M. Jones) 3. 07:03 AM - Re: Contactor clicks but doesn't make electrical contact (R. curtis) 4. 07:21 AM - Re: Re: Contactor clicks but doesn't make electrical contact (R. curtis) 5. 09:13 AM - Re: Re: Contactor clicks but doesn't make electrical contact (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 12:00 PM - Re: Re: Contactor clicks but doesn't make elec trical contact (jan) 7. 01:49 PM - Overactive Power Supply (Dave Saylor) 8. 03:31 PM - Re: Overactive Power Supply (Daniel Hooper) 9. 03:52 PM - Re: Overactive Power Supply (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 03:54 PM - Re: Contactor clicks but doesn't make elec trical contact (Eric M. Jones) 11. 04:53 PM - Re: Overactive Power Supply (rayj) 12. 05:40 PM - Re: Overactive Power Supply (Dave Saylor) 13. 05:40 PM - Re: Overactive Power Supply (Dave Saylor) 14. 10:29 PM - Re: Garmin GNS430 goes into setup mode - screen with colored boxes (Sacha) 15. 10:57 PM - Re: Garmin GNS430 goes into setup mode - screen with colored boxes (Tim Andres) 16. 11:36 PM - Re: Garmin GNS430 goes into setup mode - screen with colored boxes (Sacha) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:18:18 AM PST US From: "Sacha" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Garmin GNS430 goes into setup mode - screen with colored boxes Garmin support says that the unit is booting in Test mode and suggested to double check whether pin 75 of the 4001 connector is grounded... (I hope it is, otherwise i might be in for some repair co$ts)... ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:31:34 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Contactor clicks but doesn't make electrical contact From: "Eric M. Jones" I don't agree that this is just normal wear and tear. The Type-70 contactor is unsuited to use in aircraft, and the proof is in the photos. (Good pix Bob!). I don't see any mention of coil suppressors. There should be some and they should be bidirectional zeners (or at least not p/n diodes). Potter and Brumfield, etc. have campaigned for this for years. The reason for coil suppression is that it speeds up opening and minimizes arcing and welding when opening. Better yet, check the data sheet for these contactors and see that they have a maximum ambient of 122 degrees F., and G-sensitive, not sealed, high hold current, poor capability opening under load...then ask yourself why you are using them. They're cheap? Clique and Claque says, "It the stingy man who pays the most." I'd go with using either NO contactors, solid state contactors, or Kilovac EV200 or Gigavac MX-11 or similar. There are lots of good products out there. Hint: Buy EV200's where the leads are too short. It is simple to unscrew the cover and reinstall long leads. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=400190#400190 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:03:06 AM PST US From: "R. curtis" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Contactor clicks but doesn't make electrical contact > Thanks for sending me the carcass. I've disassembled the > remains. The failure mode in this case is quite clear > and consistent with your narrative for intermittent > functionality. Bob, Your time and effort Is much appreciated. Along with the analysis of the defect, your explanation of the workings, connections, and why the failure, was quite enlitening. Thanks, Roger -- Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:21:44 AM PST US From: "R. curtis" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Contactor clicks but doesn't make electrical contact The Type-70 contactor is unsuited to use in aircraft, and the proof is in the photos. (Good pix Bob!). Eric, Are you saying that this is NOT the original contactor installed by Cessna Aircraft Corp. in the new, as built aircraft? Roger -- Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:13:36 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Contactor clicks but doesn't make electrical contact At 08:30 AM 5/9/2013, you wrote: > >I don't agree that this is just normal wear and tear. The Type-70 >contactor is unsuited to use in aircraft, and the proof is in the >photos. (Good pix Bob!). But Eric, I think we were told that this was the factory installed contactor . . . Given the demonstrated longevity of this part and the fact that it failed gracefully suggests that the contactor not over stressed nor was it mis-applied to tasks beyond design goals of the manufacturer. >I don't see any mention of coil suppressors. There should be some >and they should be bidirectional zeners (or at least not p/n >diodes). Potter and Brumfield, etc. have campaigned for this for >years. The reason for coil suppression is that it speeds up opening >and minimizes arcing and welding when opening. Yes you have complained . . . and I have explained and conducted demonstrations on the bench to (1) show that there IS value for coil suppression with respect to life of the battery master switch and (2) shown that such suppression in the form of plain vanilla rectifiers -OR- zeners has no measurable influence on service life of the contactor itself. These contactors, applied as battery contactors in airplanes, DO NOT MAKE or BREAK heavy loads. As long as you don't drown them in water or oil, their service life is exemplary with respect to their cost. I have further debunked the notion that contacts weld "on opening". I've studied many cases of relay failures for sticking contacts and deduced the "on closure" sticking modes for relays both by analysis of carcasses -AND- laboratory experiment. Failure to close is ALWAYS a function of contact contamination or degradation due to mis-application. I've repeatedly measured the contact spreading velocity of relays and contactors with plain vanilla diode coil suppression, sophisticated coil suppression and NO suppression and found no practical differences. The various modes might affect contact opening DELAY but not the spreading velocity. Go to the bench, get out your 'scope and prove these assertions wrong. This contactor WAS fitted with a plain-vanilla rectifier as a coil spike suppressor. What evidence is visible in the photos that an alternative form of suppression would have made a difference? >Better yet, check the data sheet for these contactors and see that >they have a maximum ambient of 122 degrees F., and G-sensitive, not >sealed, high hold current, poor capability opening under load...then >ask yourself why you are using them. They're cheap? Clique and >Claque says, "It the stingy man who pays the most." What evidence do you see in the photos that suggest this part was thermally abused? What evidence do you see that suggests this contactor failed to function for any reason other than the 'dusting of contact surfaces' with materials detrimental to good contact (I.e. spring rust)? >I'd go with using either NO contactors, solid state contactors, or >Kilovac EV200 or Gigavac MX-11 or similar. There are lots of good >products out there. > >Hint: Buy EV200's where the leads are too short. It is simple to >unscrew the cover and reinstall long leads. An what is the return on investment? There have been hundreds of thousands of airplanes fitted with contactors not unlike the device under discussion. If the airplane is fitted with an e-bus, then contactor failures of any nature have a back-up plan for comfortable termination of flight. Even THIS contactor did not produce an in-flight condition that threatened life, limb or aluminum. Indeed, battery contactors are a maintenance item not unlike tires, switches, light bulbs, batteries, oil, Plexiglas windows, paint and the occasional smoothing of nicks in the prop. If one were to get a prop crafted from say, titanium, perhaps one could dispense with the file. Yes, a $high$ contactor might prove to offer a longer service life but it has zero effect on system reliability. That vulnerability to g-loading is another widely circulated myth having no foundation in physics or practical application. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:00:11 PM PST US From: jan Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Contactor clicks but doesn't make elec trical contact Eric, Question regarding EV200 - Would you use the short model that has the 'economizer' built in ? Or the larger (taller) version that has no economizer ? Jan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric M. Jones Sent: 09 May 2013 14:30 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Contactor clicks but doesn't make electrical contact I don't agree that this is just normal wear and tear. The Type-70 contactor is unsuited to use in aircraft, and the proof is in the photos. (Good pix Bob!). I don't see any mention of coil suppressors. There should be some and they should be bidirectional zeners (or at least not p/n diodes). Potter and Brumfield, etc. have campaigned for this for years. The reason for coil suppression is that it speeds up opening and minimizes arcing and welding when opening. Better yet, check the data sheet for these contactors and see that they have a maximum ambient of 122 degrees F., and G-sensitive, not sealed, high hold current, poor capability opening under load...then ask yourself why you are using them. They're cheap? Clique and Claque says, "It the stingy man who pays the most." I'd go with using either NO contactors, solid state contactors, or Kilovac EV200 or Gigavac MX-11 or similar. There are lots of good products out there. Hint: Buy EV200's where the leads are too short. It is simple to unscrew the cover and reinstall long leads. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=400190#400190 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:49:15 PM PST US From: Dave Saylor Subject: AeroElectric-List: Overactive Power Supply We have a very expensive power supply/battery charger. It's for aircraft use, purchaed from an aircraft vendor, and even has a picture of an airplane on it. http://www.bycansystems.com/products/avionics/Blue_Angel.html I think I mentioned here before that it overcharges Odyssey batteries, at about 15.3V. The manufacturer recently provided us with a kit to lower the voltage slightly. The kit consists of a heavy aluminum plate supporting three huge 15 ohm/50W resistors wired in parallel. The whole thing gets wired across the output of the charger to act as an additional load to drop the voltage into the acceptable Odyssey range. I tried it on some 12V batteries and it works fine. But on a 24V battery (not an Odyssey) , it got so hot that it let the magic smoke out of the feed wires to the resistor plate. Plus it's a personnel hazard and it smells bad. The manufacturer said "huh, that's weird" and sent me another resistor plate. Before I install it for round II, does this sound like a reasonable approach, or should I just expect the same results? Dave Saylor 831-750-0284 CL ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:31:45 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Overactive Power Supply From: Daniel Hooper Wow, those guys know what 'brute force' means.. Maybe a dumb question, but do you need to drop the voltage for the 24v non-o dyssey battery? Daniel On May 9, 2013, at 3:47 PM, Dave Saylor w rote: > We have a very expensive power supply/battery charger. It's for aircraft u se, purchaed from an aircraft vendor, and even has a picture of an airplane o n it. > > http://www.bycansystems.com/products/avionics/Blue_Angel.html > > I think I mentioned here before that it overcharges Odyssey batteries, at a bout 15.3V. The manufacturer recently provided us with a kit to lower the v oltage slightly. The kit consists of a heavy aluminum plate supporting thre e huge 15 ohm/50W resistors wired in parallel. The whole thing gets wired a cross the output of the charger to act as an additional load to drop the vol tage into the acceptable Odyssey range. > > I tried it on some 12V batteries and it works fine. But on a 24V battery ( not an Odyssey) , it got so hot that it let the magic smoke out of the feed w ires to the resistor plate. Plus it's a personnel hazard and it smells bad. > > The manufacturer said "huh, that's weird" and sent me another resistor pla te. > > Before I install it for round II, does this sound like a reasonable approa ch, or should I just expect the same results? > > Dave Saylor > 831-750-0284 CL > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:52:20 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Overactive Power Supply At 03:47 PM 5/9/2013, you wrote: >We have a very expensive power supply/battery >charger. =C2 It's for aircraft use, purchaed from >an aircraft vendor, and even has a picture of an airplane on it. > >http://www.b ycansystems.com/products/avionics/Blue_Angel.html > >I think I mentioned here before that it >overcharges Odyssey batteries, at about 15.3V. =C2 >The manufacturer recently provided us with a kit >to lower the voltage slightly. =C2 The kit >consists of a heavy aluminum plate supporting >three huge 15 ohm/50W resistors wired in >parallel. =C2 The whole thing gets wired across >the output of the charger to act as an >additional load to drop the voltage into the acceptable Odyssey range. > >I tried it on some 12V batteries and it works >fine. =C2 But on a 24V battery (not an=C2 Odyssey)=C2 >, it got so hot that it let the magic smoke out >of the feed wires to the resistor plate. =C2 Plus >it's a=C2 personnel=C2 hazard and it smells bad. > >The=C2 manufacturer=C2 said "huh, that's=C2 weird" and >sent me another resistor plate. > >Before I install it for round II, does this >sound like a reasonable approach, or should I just expect the same results? Man! This is sad. There is no reason whatsoever for this kind of behavior. Getting a smart charger to behave is child's play. External band-aids are inexcusable. Oh fooey, I just read the fine print. "Ferro-resonant regulation" . . . by today's standards this is just one step above no regulation and certainly not controlled for accurate battery charging. This is 1940's technology. It would be really interesting to see what's inside this 'magic' box. Maybe I ought to design one. I'm thinking of a charger that one could plug into a computer USB port to set charge current, plateau voltage for bulk charge, trigger current level for recession to sustaining voltage, and sustaining voltage. A kind of Super Battery Minder with flexibility to charge ANY svla battery up to and including 24 volts. I've got another program on the back burner to do a new alternator regulator that calls for some cross-over technology with the battery charger. Of course that doesn't help you right now. Is this the only charger you have right now? It's okay for ground power but as you've discovered, NOT a good charger. How much current do you NEED for ground power service? As a general rule, ground power carts for aircraft should be either 13 or 26 volt output and NEVER used to charge a battery. Battery chargers should be 'smart' devices that do the SVLA three-stroke waltz . . . http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/Charger_Performance/Ide CHARGE, BULK, SUSTAIN . . . Of course it's possible to build a device that will DO both. You can float a battery across a 13/26v ground power supply -OR- do the 3-stroke waltz on a stand-alone battery . . . but not both at the same time. The device you have seems entirely unsuited to battery charging. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:54:39 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Contactor clicks but doesn't make elec trical contact From: "Eric M. Jones" > Eric, Are you saying that this is NOT the original contactor installed by Cessna Aircraft Corp. in the new, as built aircraft? > Roger I spent many hours tracking down the designers of this Stancor-White-Rogers Tyco Type-70. The only info that remains available seems to be the current specs. The available newly produced Type-70 specs simply make it unsuitable. Will it work, Yes. Will it fail? Yes, sooner than you'd like. It is entirely possible that Cessna had a custom model. Is Cessna still using these? Possibly, but certificated a/c tend to use old original technology until it bleeds. There's no reason you should follow them. > Question regarding EV200 - Would you use the short model that has the economizer built in? Or the larger (taller) version that has no economizer ? Jan Go with the economizer. The Kilovac Czonkas are made in many types. There is a marine model too that is perfectly usable. But I don't have stock in Kilovac. There are many makers of newer stuff. For my airplane, I'll use a Flaming River Battery switch if I can and an EV200 otherwise.... ps: Guess how Kilovac and Gigavac clamp coil voltages generated from the collapsing magnetic field? That's right...bidirectional zeners. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=400215#400215 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:53:20 PM PST US From: rayj Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Overactive Power Supply Bob, If you're looking at something that plugs into a USB port, look and the Raspberry Pi computer and include it in the charger. do not archive Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 05/09/2013 05:51 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 03:47 PM 5/9/2013, you wrote: >> We have a very expensive power supply/battery charger. It's for >> aircraft use, purchaed from an aircraft vendor, and even has a >> picture of an airplane on it. >> >> http://www.bycansystems.com/products/avionics/Blue_Angel.html >> >> >> I think I mentioned here before that it overcharges Odyssey >> batteries, at about 15.3V. The manufacturer recently provided us >> with a kit to lower the voltage slightly. The kit consists of a >> heavy aluminum plate supporting three huge 15 ohm/50W resistors wired >> in parallel. The whole thing gets wired across the output of the >> charger to act as an additional load to drop the voltage into the >> acceptable Odyssey range. >> >> I tried it on some 12V batteries and it works fine. But on a 24V >> battery (not an Odyssey) , it got so hot that it let the magic >> smoke out of the feed wires to the resistor plate. Plus it's a >> personnel hazard and it smells bad. >> >> The manufacturer said "huh, that's weird" and sent me another >> resistor plate. >> >> Before I install it for round II, does this sound like a reasonable >> approach, or should I just expect the same results? > > Man! This is sad. There is no reason whatsoever > for this kind of behavior. Getting a smart charger > to behave is child's play. External band-aids are > inexcusable. > > Oh fooey, I just read the fine print. "Ferro-resonant > regulation" . . . by today's standards this is just > one step above no regulation and certainly not controlled > for accurate battery charging. This is 1940's technology. > > It would be really interesting to see what's inside > this 'magic' box. Maybe I ought to design one. I'm > thinking of a charger that one could plug into > a computer USB port to set charge current, plateau > voltage for bulk charge, trigger current level for > recession to sustaining voltage, and sustaining > voltage. A kind of Super Battery Minder with > flexibility to charge ANY svla battery up to and > including 24 volts. > > I've got another program on the back burner to > do a new alternator regulator that calls for > some cross-over technology with the battery > charger. > > Of course that doesn't help you right now. Is > this the only charger you have right now? It's > okay for ground power but as you've discovered, > NOT a good charger. How much current do you NEED > for ground power service? As a general rule, > ground power carts for aircraft should be either > 13 or 26 volt output and NEVER used to charge > a battery. Battery chargers should be 'smart' > devices that do the SVLA three-stroke waltz . . . > > http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/Charger_Performance/Ide > CHARGE, BULK, SUSTAIN . . . > > Of course it's possible to build a device that will > DO both. You can float a battery across a 13/26v ground > power supply -OR- do the 3-stroke waltz on a stand-alone > battery . . . but not both at the same time. > > The device you have seems entirely unsuited to battery > charging. > > > Bob . . . > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:40:02 PM PST US From: Dave Saylor Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Overactive Power Supply I think we'll just give up on using it to charge. I'll disable the charge mode and just use it as a power supply. I've seen what's inside. I'll send you a couple pictures. It weighs a ton. Well, 46 lbs according to the web page. Dave Saylor 831-750-0284 CL On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Daniel Hooper wrote: > Wow, those guys know what 'brute force' means.. > > Maybe a dumb question, but do you need to drop the voltage for the 24v > non-odyssey battery? > > Daniel > > On May 9, 2013, at 3:47 PM, Dave Saylor > wrote: > > We have a very expensive power supply/battery charger. It's for aircraft > use, purchaed from an aircraft vendor, and even has a picture of an > airplane on it. > > http://www.bycansystems.com/products/avionics/Blue_Angel.html > > I think I mentioned here before that it overcharges Odyssey batteries, at > about 15.3V. The manufacturer recently provided us with a kit to lower the > voltage slightly. The kit consists of a heavy aluminum plate supporting > three huge 15 ohm/50W resistors wired in parallel. The whole thing gets > wired across the output of the charger to act as an additional load to drop > the voltage into the acceptable Odyssey range. > > I tried it on some 12V batteries and it works fine. But on a 24V battery > (not an Odyssey) , it got so hot that it let the magic smoke out of the > feed wires to the resistor plate. Plus it's a personnel hazard and it > smells bad. > > The manufacturer said "huh, that's weird" and sent me another resistor > plate. > > Before I install it for round II, does this sound like a reasonable > approach, or should I just expect the same results? > > Dave Saylor > 831-750-0284 CL > > * > > * > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:40:02 PM PST US From: Dave Saylor Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Overactive Power Supply I don't have a need to adjust the 24V output. But the connector is common with the 12V side and I'm hoping to avoid some switching scenario that shuts off the resistors for 24V. The heat is present but manageable in 12V mode. I put a piece of insulation over the hot area and never saw any smoke until we tried 24V. Dave Saylor 831-750-0284 CL On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Daniel Hooper wrote: > Wow, those guys know what 'brute force' means.. > > Maybe a dumb question, but do you need to drop the voltage for the 24v > non-odyssey battery? > > Daniel > > On May 9, 2013, at 3:47 PM, Dave Saylor > wrote: > > We have a very expensive power supply/battery charger. It's for aircraft > use, purchaed from an aircraft vendor, and even has a picture of an > airplane on it. > > http://www.bycansystems.com/products/avionics/Blue_Angel.html > > I think I mentioned here before that it overcharges Odyssey batteries, at > about 15.3V. The manufacturer recently provided us with a kit to lower the > voltage slightly. The kit consists of a heavy aluminum plate supporting > three huge 15 ohm/50W resistors wired in parallel. The whole thing gets > wired across the output of the charger to act as an additional load to drop > the voltage into the acceptable Odyssey range. > > I tried it on some 12V batteries and it works fine. But on a 24V battery > (not an Odyssey) , it got so hot that it let the magic smoke out of the > feed wires to the resistor plate. Plus it's a personnel hazard and it > smells bad. > > The manufacturer said "huh, that's weird" and sent me another resistor > plate. > > Before I install it for round II, does this sound like a reasonable > approach, or should I just expect the same results? > > Dave Saylor > 831-750-0284 CL > > * > > * > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:29:52 PM PST US From: "Sacha" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Garmin GNS430 goes into setup mode - screen with colored boxes Turns out that removing the data card, rebooting the unit and then re-inserting it did the trick; just as Garmin support suggested! Phew... ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:57:17 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Garmin GNS430 goes into setup mode - screen with colored boxes From: Tim Andres Sacha, can you re cap this thread for me? I must have missed it and I have had my 430W freeze on boot up a few weeks ago. I'm just wondering if you can elaborate, when this happened I suspected my data card may have been the cause, that or heat from sitting out all day in the sun. Thanks! Tim Sent from my iPad On May 9, 2013, at 10:27 PM, "Sacha" wrote: > > Turns out that removing the data card, rebooting the unit and then > re-inserting it did the trick; just as Garmin support suggested! Phew... > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:36:35 PM PST US From: "Sacha" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Garmin GNS430 goes into setup mode - screen with colored boxes Hi Tim, Sure. I changed one of the wires on the 4001 connector on my GNS430 and when I put everything back and powered up the GNS430, I got a strange startup screen with lots of concentric colored boxes. The unit appeared to be in SETUP mode because when I turn the right dial I got the other setup screens. But no matter how many times I tied it would not startup normally. After posting to the list, I also emailed Garmin support. Within hours, I got the following reply from them: " What you are seeing is Test mode. Try first removing the data cards and see if this will clear it it. If not you may have Pin 75 OF plug 4001 grounded. If this is not the case then you have a unit problem and it will need to be repaired." Getting the unit fixed would probably have been a four figure expense including shipping, so I'm quite happy that its still working! 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