Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:15 AM - Re: Re: Crowbar OV Module (Sacha)
2. 12:50 AM - Re: Re: Crowbar OV Module (jan)
3. 06:45 AM - Re: Re: Crowbar OV Module (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 07:04 AM - Re: Re: Crowbar OV Module (jan)
5. 06:53 PM - Lithium batteries for OBAM aircraft (David Josephson)
6. 07:43 PM - Re: Lithium batteries for OBAM aircraft (Henador Titzoff)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Crowbar OV Module |
Aliant is a brand belonging to ELSA Solutions. They're an Italian company ba
sed in Bologna, whose main business is industrial automation and photovoltai
c products.
www.elsaweb.it
Their website is in Italian and they use google translate which can yield so
me interesting results.
They claim that their batteries were designed with the Battery Management Sy
stem as the central component which may explain why they haven't run into th
e same problems as the other manufacturers.
On 12 May 2013, at 02:18, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectr
ic.com> wrote:
> Care and feeding of your lithium battery is
> another matter entirely. I'd not heard of
> the Aliant brand until your enquiry. Poking
> around on the 'net I find that they've made
> what appears to be a good penetration of the
> sport vehicles markets. They filed for a trademark
>
>
>
> late last year. http://tinyurl.com/d2ohsjo
>
> I'm reading also where a part of their organization
> has been awarded a contract to do safety
> studies for the US Army to explore characteristics
> based on environments and maintenance issues.
>
> SCRATCH THE ABOVE.
>
> Seems there's a company called Alliant/Valence that makes
> a lot of aerospace/military hardware. These are the
> folks getting the testing job . . . NOT Aliant
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
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Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Crowbar OV Module |
I know Valence very well. Been using them for a few years in other
applications - They ran out of money some time ago. Looks like they are now
doing work with this Aliant company .. Valence had a good technology and a
good BMS system - Also the Iron Phosphate technology is pretty safe - Not as
energy dense or as powerful as Cobalt .
To not damage the cells - over voltage under voltage and temperatures all
have to be watched and maintained to not damage the cell.
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sacha
Sent: 12 May 2013 07:56
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Crowbar OV Module
Aliant is a brand belonging to ELSA Solutions. They're an Italian company
based in Bologna, whose main business is industrial automation and
photovoltaic products.
www.elsaweb.it <http://www.elsaweb.it>
Their website is in Italian and they use google translate which can yield
some interesting results.
They claim that their batteries were designed with the Battery Management
System as the central component which may explain why they haven't run into
the same problems as the other manufacturers.
On 12 May 2013, at 02:18, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com <mailto:nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> >
wrote:
Care and feeding of your lithium battery is
another matter entirely. I'd not heard of
the Aliant brand until your enquiry. Poking
around on the 'net I find that they've made
what appears to be a good penetration of the
sport vehicles markets. They filed for a trademark
ALIANT
<http://www.trademarkia.com/logo-images/elsa-solutions-srl/aliant-79120895.j
pg>
late last year. http://tinyurl.com/d2ohsjo <http://tinyurl.com/d2ohsjo>
I'm reading also where a part of their organization
has been awarded a contract to do safety
studies for the US Army to explore characteristics
based on environments and maintenance issues.
SCRATCH THE ABOVE.
Seems there's a company called Alliant/Valence that makes
a lot of aerospace/military hardware. These are the
folks getting the testing job . . . NOT Aliant
Bob . . .
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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I know <st1:City
w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Valence</st1:place></st1:City> very well. Been using them
for a few
years in other applications – They ran out of money some time
ago. Looks like
they are now doing work with this Aliant company .. <st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:City
w:st="on">Valence</st1:City></st1:place> had a good technology and a
good BMS system
– Also the Iron Phosphate technology is pretty safe – Not
as energy dense or as
powerful as Cobalt .<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>To not damage the cells –
over voltage
under voltage and temperatures all have to be watched and maintained to
not damage
the cell.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
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</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Sacha<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 12 May 2013
07:56<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b>
aeroelectric-list@matronics.com<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re:
AeroElectric-List:
Re: Crowbar OV Module</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Aliant is a brand belonging to ELSA Solutions. They're an
Italian
company based in <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Bologna</st1:place></st1:City>,
whose main business is industrial automation and photovoltaic
products. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:
12.0pt'><a
href="http://www.elsaweb.it">www.elsaweb.it</a><o:p></o:p></span></fon
t></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Their website is in Italian and they use google translate which
can
yield some interesting results.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:
12.0pt'>They claim that their batteries were designed with the Battery
Management System as the central component which may explain why they
haven't
run into the same problems as the other
manufacturers. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
On 12 May 2013, at 02:18, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <<a
href="mailto:nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com">nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.
com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:
12.0pt'> Care and feeding of your lithium battery is<br>
another matter entirely. I'd not heard of<br>
the Aliant brand until your enquiry. Poking<br>
around on the 'net I find that they've made<br>
what appears to be a good penetration of the<br>
sport vehicles markets. They filed for a trademark<br>
<br>
<img border=0 width=500 height=163 id="_x0000_i1025"
src="http://www.trademarkia.com/logo-images/elsa-solutions-srl/aliant-
79120895.jpg"
alt=ALIANT> <br>
<br>
late last year. <a href="http://tinyurl.com/d2ohsjo"
eudora=autourl>http://tinyurl.com/d2ohsjo</a>
<br>
<br>
I'm reading also where a part of their organization<br>
has been awarded a contract to do safety<br>
studies for the US Army to explore characteristics<br>
based on environments and maintenance issues.<br>
<br>
SCRATCH THE ABOVE.<br>
<br>
Seems there's a company called Alliant/Valence that makes<br>
a lot of aerospace/military hardware. These are the<br>
folks getting the testing job . . . NOT Aliant<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<x-sigsep>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">Bob</st1:PersonName> . . . <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<pre><b><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;color:black;font-weight:bold'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></b>
</pre><pre><b><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black;
font-weight:bold'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></b></pre><pre><b><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black;
font-weight:bold'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></b></pre></div>
</blockquote>
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Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Crowbar OV Module |
At 03:01 AM 5/12/2013, you wrote:
>I know Valence very well. Been using them for a
>few years in other applications ' They ran out
>of money some time ago. Looks like they are now
>doing work with this Aliant company .. Valence
>had a good technology and a good BMS system '
>Also the Iron Phosphate technology is pretty
>safe ' Not as energy dense or as powerful as Cobalt .
>
>To not damage the cells ' over voltage under
>voltage and temperatures all have to be watched
>and maintained to not damage the cell.
>
>
Are you saying there IS a cooperation between Aliant
the battery guys and Alliant/Valence the aerospace/
military guys?
Bob . . .
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Crowbar OV Module |
Bob,
I will make a few phone calls next week and see what I can find out...
Jan
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: 12 May 2013 14:43
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Crowbar OV Module
At 03:01 AM 5/12/2013, you wrote:
I know Valence very well. Been using them for a few years in other
applications - They ran out of money some time ago. Looks like they are now
doing work with this Aliant company .. Valence had a good technology and a
good BMS system - Also the Iron Phosphate technology is pretty safe - Not as
energy dense or as powerful as Cobalt .
To not damage the cells - over voltage under voltage and temperatures all
have to be watched and maintained to not damage the cell.
Are you saying there IS a cooperation between Aliant
the battery guys and Alliant/Valence the aerospace/
military guys?
Bob . . .
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>
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<p class=MsoNormal><st1:PersonName w:st="on"><font size=2
color=navy
face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Bob</span></font
></st1:PersonName><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I will make a few phone calls next
week
and see what I can find out…<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Jan<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Robert L. Nuckolls,
III<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 12 May 2013
14:43<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b>
aeroelectric-list@matronics.com<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE:
AeroElectric-List:
Re: Crowbar OV Module</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:
12.0pt'>At 03:01 AM 5/12/2013, you wrote:<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I know <st1:City
w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Valence</st1:place></st1:City> very well. Been using them
for a few
years in other applications – They ran out of money some time
ago. Looks
like they are now doing work with this Aliant company ..
<st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Valence</st1:place></st1:City> had a good technology and a
good BMS
system – Also the Iron Phosphate technology is pretty safe
– Not as
energy dense or as powerful as Cobalt .<br>
<br>
To not damage the cells – over voltage under voltage and
temperatures all
have to be watched and maintained to not damage the cell.<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
Are you saying there IS a cooperation between Aliant<br>
the battery guys and Alliant/Valence the aerospace/<br>
military guys?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<x-sigsep>
<p></x-sigsep><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<st1:PersonName w:st="on">Bob</st1:PersonName> . . .
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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Message 5
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|
Subject: | Lithium batteries for OBAM aircraft |
I attended the Electric Aircraft Symposium put on by CAFE a few weeks
ago. One of the speakers was Dr Eric Darcy of the NASA Johnson
Spaceflight Center in Houston, on "Mitigating Catastrophic Failures with
Li-ion Batteries." He has the task of figuring out how to change out the
batteries in the International Space Station, and for now they are
planning to use the same GS-Yuasa LVP lithium cobalt cells that are in
the Boeing 787. As you might imagine, he's not quite ready to give the
green light for using them in the Space Station.
We learned a lot about keeping lithium batteries from doing bad things,
and about some things that amateurs can do to test cells for likely
problems. All variants (LiPo, LiFe, Li-poly etc.) have the same thermal
runaway problem that seems to have been the failure mechanism in the
incidents to date, some just take more abuse to start it. Besides that,
the lithium cobalt chemistry (used in the 787, Tesla cars, laptops and
many other applications) uses a flammable electrolyte that isn't used in
the lithium/manganese or lithium/iron used in some others. He thought
they were all just as dangerous, though, and were subject to all of the
same problems.
Once the cell develops a short, all of its energy gets released as heat,
potentially causing the neighboring cells to do the same. Of course the
known limits for charge voltage and discharge current must be followed.
You also need to avoid mechanical damage that could cause a short
between the plates of the cell (drive a nail through and they will
explode.) But the famous failures so far have probably not been due to
any of those things. Dr. Darcy was clear to point out that he didn't
know what happened with the 787 batteries but discussed failures that he
had seen in many other cell types, both prismatic and "jelly roll." Two
main events can happen: a small inclusion like a tiny snip of metal or
dirt can be trapped in the separator between the battery plates that
ultimately starts forming a current path between them, or the edges of
the plates which are supposed to be overlapped by insulating material
can come close to touching if they are misaligned, causing the same sort
of contact.
Many of these cell failures can be caught long before the cell melts
down, because each of these almost-short-circuits usually causes some
discharge before the full battery current can flow. Darcy suggested two
tests that anyone could do. One is when receiving a lot of cells, that
have been partially charged and then shipped a long distance, measure
the open circuit voltage of each one. They should all be very close to
each other, like within 1%. The other test is to charge each cell to
full capacity and then discharge to 10%, say 3.25 volts. Disconnect the
charger and measure the open circuit voltage a few times a day for two
weeks. Good cells will climb at a uniform rate back to their original
voltage, suspect cells will have a very different curve, either much
slower or much faster (typically followed by a droop). At the end of two
weeks, trust the cells that are all clustered with the same open circuit
voltage.
I would imagine that the folks packaging cells into aircraft batteries
do some of this testing, but it's good to know that some simple methods
can be used to check cells beforehand.
--
David Josephson
Message 6
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|
Subject: | Re: Lithium batteries for OBAM aircraft |
David,=0A=0AThanks for giving us insight on what Dr. Darcy said at the JSC
on mitigating catastrophic failures with lithium batteries. I have the opin
ion that lithium batteries are not ready for prime time in aircraft, but I
can always be talked out of it if someone has done sufficient analysis and
testing to prove me wrong.- I see that Dr. Darcy isn't ready to install l
ithium cobalt batteries in the ISS.- I wonder if he would install them in
his OBAM aircraft and fly his family around?- I suspect not.=0A=0A=0AI h
ave a problem with his advice about how to detect cell failures.- We typi
cally do not have access to cells, because they are packaged in series to b
uild up the voltage to 12V+. I certainly wouldn't drill into the packaging
material to measure individual cells. Therefore, we only have access to two
points: GND and POS.- Without destroying the battery's usefulness, we ca
n't perform the cell tests he mentioned.=0A=0A=0ADoes anyone see it differe
ntly?=0A-=0AHenador Titzoff=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A F
rom: David Josephson <dlj04@josephson.com>=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronic
s.com =0ASent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 9:51 PM=0ASubject: AeroElectric-List: L
ithium batteries for OBAM aircraft=0A =0A=0A--> AeroElectric-List message p
osted by: David Josephson <dlj04@josephson.com>=0A=0AI attended the Electri
c Aircraft Symposium put on by CAFE a few weeks =0Aago. One of the speakers
was Dr Eric Darcy of the NASA Johnson =0ASpaceflight Center in Houston, on
"Mitigating Catastrophic Failures with =0ALi-ion Batteries." He has the ta
sk of figuring out how to change out the =0Abatteries in the International
Space Station, and for now they are =0Aplanning to use the same GS-Yuasa LV
P lithium cobalt cells that are in =0Athe Boeing 787. As you might imagine,
he's not quite ready to give the =0Agreen light for using them in the Spac
e Station.=0A=0AWe learned a lot about keeping lithium batteries from doing
bad things, =0Aand about some things that amateurs can do to test cells fo
r likely =0Aproblems.- All variants (LiPo, LiFe, Li-poly etc.) have the s
ame thermal =0Arunaway problem that seems to have been the failure mechanis
m in the =0Aincidents to date, some just take more abuse to start it. Besid
es that, =0Athe lithium cobalt chemistry (used in the 787, Tesla cars, lapt
ops and =0Amany other applications) uses a flammable electrolyte that isn't
used in =0Athe lithium/manganese or lithium/iron used in some others. He t
hought =0Athey were all just as dangerous, though, and were subject to all
of the =0Asame problems.=0A=0AOnce the cell develops a short, all of its en
ergy gets released as heat, =0Apotentially causing the neighboring cells to
do the same. Of course the =0Aknown limits for charge voltage and discharg
e current must be followed. =0AYou also need to avoid mechanical damage tha
t could cause a short =0Abetween the plates of the cell (drive a nail throu
gh and they will =0Aexplode.) But the famous failures so far have probably
not been due to =0Aany of those things. Dr. Darcy was clear to point out th
at he didn't =0Aknow what happened with the 787 batteries but discussed fai
lures that he =0Ahad seen in many other cell types, both prismatic and "jel
ly roll." Two =0Amain events can happen: a small inclusion like a tiny snip
of metal or =0Adirt can be trapped in the separator between the battery pl
ates that =0Aultimately starts forming a current path between them, or the
edges of =0Athe plates which are supposed to be overlapped by insulating ma
terial =0Acan come close to touching if they are misaligned, causing the sa
me sort =0Aof contact.=0A=0AMany of these cell failures can be caught long
before the cell melts =0Adown, because each of these almost-short-circuits
usually causes some =0Adischarge before the full battery current can flow.
Darcy suggested two =0Atests that anyone could do. One is when receiving a
lot of cells, that =0Ahave been partially charged and then shipped a long d
istance, measure =0Athe open circuit voltage of each one. They should all b
e very close to =0Aeach other, like within 1%. The other test is to charge
each cell to =0Afull capacity and then discharge to 10%, say 3.25 volts. Di
sconnect the =0Acharger and measure the open circuit voltage a few times a
day for two =0Aweeks. Good cells will climb at a uniform rate back to their
original =0Avoltage, suspect cells will have a very different curve, eithe
r much =0Aslower or much faster (typically followed by a droop). At the end
of two =0Aweeks, trust the cells that are all clustered with the same open
circuit =0Avoltage.=0A=0AI would imagine that the folks packaging cells in
to aircraft batteries =0Ado some of this testing, but it's good to know tha
t some simple methods =0Acan be used to check cells beforehand.=0A=0A--=0AD
=
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