Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:47 AM - Battery fail question (Bill Bradburry)
2. 05:50 AM - #2 Welding Cable (Mark Banus)
3. 05:59 AM - Re: Battery fail question (bob noffs)
4. 06:55 AM - Re: #2 Welding Cable (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 07:26 AM - Re: Battery fail question (Bob McCallum)
6. 08:29 AM - Re: Battery fail question (Bill Bradburry)
7. 09:36 AM - Re: Battery fail question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 09:49 AM - Re: Battery fail question (Henador Titzoff)
9. 09:57 AM - Re: Battery fail question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 10:28 AM - Re: Battery fail question (rayj)
11. 10:43 AM - Re: Battery fail question (David Lloyd)
12. 11:00 AM - Re: Battery fail question (Henador Titzoff)
13. 11:27 AM - Any thing you can think of to use this product for? (rparigoris)
14. 11:53 AM - Re: Battery fail question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
15. 11:58 AM - Re: Battery fail question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
16. 12:10 PM - Re: Any thing you can think of to use this product for? (rayj)
17. 12:15 PM - Re: Battery fail question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
18. 12:45 PM - Re: #2 Welding Cable (Bill Allen)
19. 01:01 PM - Re: Any thing you can think of to use this product for? ()
20. 01:08 PM - Re: Battery fail question (Henador Titzoff)
21. 01:14 PM - Re: Any thing you can think of to use this product for? (Ralph Finch)
22. 02:14 PM - Re: Any thing you can think of to use this product for? (fedico94@mchsi.com)
23. 03:57 PM - Re: Battery fail question (racerjerry)
24. 08:12 PM - Re: Any thing you can think of to use this product for? (Tim Yoder)
25. 09:24 PM - Re: #2 Welding Cable (robert wiebe)
Message 1
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Subject: | Battery fail question |
A couple of weeks ago the battery suddenly failed in my '09 Toyota.
The starter had never given any indication that the battery was getting
weak. I drove up to a business just before 5:00 pm, shut off the car, got
out and tried the door on the business.locked! They closed a few minutes
early. Got back in the car and everything was dead. The panel would not
light up. The starter would not click. The door locks would not work!
(good thing I had not locked them when I went to the door!)
I called my neighbor and he tried to jump the car with jumper cables. The
starter would not turn it past the compression stroke while on the jumper
cables. (My neighbor had heard that it was dangerous to have his car running
while jumping off another car, so we were on his battery only. I have never
heard of this problem, but that is another question.)
I removed the battery, exchanged it for a new one, and the car started and
ran fine. No apparent charging problems after several thousand miles.
Does anyone know what might have happened to my old battery to cause this
sudden failure?
Bill
Message 2
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Subject: | #2 Welding Cable |
Bob,
Do to W&B considerations I am moving my 2 Panasonic 1220 batteries 8' aft. I
had originally used #4 as the runs were all short, 18" or less(all forward
of the firewall). The batteries were initially mounted on the forward
firewall.
As the cable runs are now 9' I intend to use #2 welding cable. Yesterday
another builder stopped by to "review many progress" and said welding cable
might not be a good choice aft of the firewall as welding cable gives of
poisonous fumes if it burns.
Comments?
Mark Banus
Glasair SIIS FT
N600
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Battery fail question |
my wild guess is that a part of the battery broke loose and shorted out a
cell on the inside.
about the same thing on my second car right now.battery was 12 yrs old
though so no complaints.
bob noffs
On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 7:46 AM, Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>w
rote:
> ** **
>
> A couple of weeks ago the battery suddenly failed in my =9209 ****Toyota*
***.
> ****
>
> The starter had never given any indication that the battery was getting
> weak. I drove up to a business just before 5:00 pm, shut off the car, go
t
> out and tried the door on the business=85locked! They closed a few minu
tes
> early. Got back in the car and everything was dead. The panel would not
> light up. The starter would not click. The door locks would not work!
> (good thing I had not locked them when I went to the door!)****
>
> I called my neighbor and he tried to jump the car with jumper cables. Th
e
> starter would not turn it past the compression stroke while on the jumper
> cables. (My neighbor had heard that it was dangerous to have his car
> running while jumping off another car, so we were on his battery only. I
> have never heard of this problem, but that is another question.)****
>
> ** **
>
> I removed the battery, exchanged it for a new one, and the car started an
d
> ran fine. No apparent charging problems after several thousand miles.***
*
>
> ** **
>
> Does anyone know what might have happened to my old battery to cause this
> sudden failure?****
>
> ** **
>
> Bill****
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: #2 Welding Cable |
Bob,
Do to W&B considerations I am moving my 2 Panasonic 1220 batteries 8'
aft. I had originally used #4 as the runs were all short, 18" or
less(all forward of the firewall). The batteries were initially
mounted on the forward firewall.
As the cable runs are now 9' I intend to use #2 welding cable.
Yesterday another builder stopped by to "review many progress" and
said welding cable might not be a good choice aft of the firewall as
welding cable gives of poisonous fumes if it burns.
Comments?
When ANY insulation burns, the products of
combustion are exceedingly unfriendly
to children and other living things.
There are folks who make it their life's
work to 'reduce risk' . . . even to the point
of codifying their profundities and threatening
you with retribution for regulatory
transgression.
In THIS case: What conditions would cause the
insulation on these cables to burn? Electrical
overload is one . . . externally applied fire
is the other.
The risks for electrically induced overload are
so tiny that certified iron of all sizes does
not add overload protection to these wires.
In FAR23.1357 we find these words:
Sec. 23.1357 Circuit protective devices.
(a) Protective devices, such as fuses or circuit breakers, must be
installed in all electrical circuits other than--
(1) Main circuits of starter motors used during starting only; and
(2) Circuits in which no hazard is presented by their omission.
If you've got active fire in the aircraft
that threatens to ignite your wire's insulation,
then I suggest your risk issues go far beyond
any concerns for the quality of the smoke.
Bottom line is that while those-who-know-more-
about-airplanes-than-we-do will prohibit certain
insulations in new design, they still permit
an older airplane to be repaired with the SAME
insulations that were on the original type
certificate.
For example, a 1946 C-140 wired with cotton over
rubber wire or a 1968 C-172 wired with nylon over
PVC can be repaired with the same wire. If the
admonitions for controlling cockpit pollution
were imperatives, then one would think that any
airplane brought in for repairs should be
completely re-wired.
The short answer is that risks to your future
well being due to poor selection of insulation
are vanishingly small compared to risks
for bird strike, wind shear . . . or running
out of fuel.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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Subject: | Battery fail question |
Bill;
Most likely a broken inter-cell connection causing an open circuit within
the battery. (vibration induced) For at least the latter part of that last
trip you were probably operating alternator only and when you shut down you
had "nothing". Not turning past compression stroke situation is a poor (high
resistance) connection or poor quality small AWG booster cables. (same high
resistance problem) The typical booster cables sold today are too small to
be of much use. If you look at the cables carried by tow trucks they are
usually at least #2 if not even #1 or #0. Parts store cables are often as
small as #8 or even #10.
Bob McC
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Bradburry
Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 8:47 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery fail question
A couple of weeks ago the battery suddenly failed in my '09 Toyota.
The starter had never given any indication that the battery was getting
weak. I drove up to a business just before 5:00 pm, shut off the car, got
out and tried the door on the business.locked! They closed a few minutes
early. Got back in the car and everything was dead. The panel would not
light up. The starter would not click. The door locks would not work!
(good thing I had not locked them when I went to the door!)
I called my neighbor and he tried to jump the car with jumper cables. The
starter would not turn it past the compression stroke while on the jumper
cables. (My neighbor had heard that it was dangerous to have his car running
while jumping off another car, so we were on his battery only. I have never
heard of this problem, but that is another question.)
I removed the battery, exchanged it for a new one, and the car started and
ran fine. No apparent charging problems after several thousand miles.
Does anyone know what might have happened to my old battery to cause this
sudden failure?
Bill
Message 6
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Subject: | Battery fail question |
I left out the fact that the battery tested to have 8 volts when I took it
to the store to get a new battery. That would go along with your theory of
a broken internal connection I would suppose?
What about the idea of not jumping starting a car with your own engine
running? I have done this all my life and have never heard of this being a
problem?? What could happen??
Bill
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob
McCallum
Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 10:26 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Battery fail question
Bill;
Most likely a broken inter-cell connection causing an open circuit within
the battery. (vibration induced) For at least the latter part of that last
trip you were probably operating alternator only and when you shut down you
had "nothing". Not turning past compression stroke situation is a poor (high
resistance) connection or poor quality small AWG booster cables. (same high
resistance problem) The typical booster cables sold today are too small to
be of much use. If you look at the cables carried by tow trucks they are
usually at least #2 if not even #1 or #0. Parts store cables are often as
small as #8 or even #10.
Bob McC
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Bradburry
Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 8:47 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery fail question
A couple of weeks ago the battery suddenly failed in my '09 Toyota.
The starter had never given any indication that the battery was getting
weak. I drove up to a business just before 5:00 pm, shut off the car, got
out and tried the door on the business.locked! They closed a few minutes
early. Got back in the car and everything was dead. The panel would not
light up. The starter would not click. The door locks would not work!
(good thing I had not locked them when I went to the door!)
I called my neighbor and he tried to jump the car with jumper cables. The
starter would not turn it past the compression stroke while on the jumper
cables. (My neighbor had heard that it was dangerous to have his car running
while jumping off another car, so we were on his battery only. I have never
heard of this problem, but that is another question.)
I removed the battery, exchanged it for a new one, and the car started and
ran fine. No apparent charging problems after several thousand miles.
Does anyone know what might have happened to my old battery to cause this
sudden failure?
Bill
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 7
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Subject: | Battery fail question |
At 10:16 AM 6/23/2013, you wrote:
>I left out the fact that the battery tested to have 8 volts when I
>took it to the store to get a new battery.
Aha . . . perhaps it was a 4-cell battery . . .
i've seen single-cell shorts take a tired
battery down to 10 . . . but two cells at
the same time.
> That would go along with your theory of a broken internal
> connection I would suppose?
A broken connection would get you a zero-volts
battery . . .
>What about the idea of not jumping starting a car with your own
>engine running?
> I have done this all my life and have never heard of this being a problem??
> What could happen??
Not much. If I'm jumpering to a dead battery
that is otherwise a good battery, I'll leave
the car running and let the jump-car alternator
charge the dead battery for a few minutes. This
greatly improves cranking with the jump.
I don't know where that 'concern' came from. It
may have roots in the world of spikes and other
electronics-killing phenomenon.
How old was this battery? Had it ever suffered
long term discharge?
I had a 4-year old battery take me home from Walmart
one day with no indication of weakness. Got home
and remembered something I still needed. Got back
into car and the battery was unable to crank
the engine. Now, if it had just failed before I
drove out of the Walmart parking lot instead of
after I got home!
Your 8-volt observation could be tire cells,
and/or one or more shorted cells. Only a bench
examination would reveal the whole story.
Bob . . .
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Battery fail question |
Bill,=0A=0ACan you tell us if the 8V was open circuit or under a battery te
ster load?=0A=0AThe problem with starting jump starting a car with the alte
rnator running is that you never really know what the load is going to be.
For example, if the dead battery is in an "almost shorted" condition, the s
tarting battery might survive but what about the alternator?=C2- They're
only rated for so many Amperes.=0A=C2-=0AHenador Titzoff=0A=0A=0A________
________________________=0A From: Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>
=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 11:16
AM=0ASubject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Battery fail question=0A =0A=0A=0A
=0AI left out the fact that the battery=0Atested to have 8 volts when I too
k it to the store to get a new battery.=C2- That=0Awould go along with yo
ur theory of a broken internal connection I would suppose?=0AWhat about the
idea of not jumping starting=0Aa car with your own engine running?=C2- I
have done this all my life and have=0Anever heard of this being a problem?
?=C2- What could happen??=0A=C2-=0ABill=0A=C2-=0A=0A_________________
_______________=0A =0AFrom:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com=0A[
mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob McCal
lum=0ASent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 10:26=0AAM=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matron
ics.com=0ASubject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Battery fail question=0A=C2-=0A
Bill;=0A=C2-=0AMost=0Alikely a broken inter-cell connection causing an op
en circuit within the=0Abattery. (vibration induced) For at least the latte
r part of that last trip you=0Awere probably operating alternator only and
when you shut down you had=0A=9Cnothing=9D. Not turning past co
mpression stroke situation is a poor=0A(high resistance) connection or poor
quality small AWG booster cables. (same=0Ahigh resistance problem) The typ
ical booster cables sold today are too small to=0Abe of much use. If you lo
ok at the cables carried by tow trucks they are=0Ausually at least #2 if no
t even #1 or #0. Parts store cables are often as small=0Aas #8 or even #10.
=0A=C2-=0ABob McC=0A=C2-=0A=0A________________________________=0A =0AFr
om:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com=0A[mailto:owner-aeroelectri
c-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry=0ASent: Sunday, Ju
ne 23, 2013 8:47=0AAM=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Aero
Electric-List: Battery fail question=0A=C2-=0AA couple of weeks ago the b
attery suddenly=0Afailed in my =9909 Toyota .=C2- =0AThe starter ha
d never given any indication=0Athat the battery was getting weak.=C2- I d
rove up to a business just before=0A5:00 pm, shut off the car, got out and
tried the door on the=0Abusinesslocked! =C2-=C2-They closed a
few minutes early.=C2- Got=0Aback in the car and everything was dead.=C2
- The panel would not light=0Aup.=C2- The starter would not click.=C2
- The door locks would not=0Awork!=C2- (good thing I had not locked the
m when I went to the door!)=0AI called my neighbor and he tried to jump=0At
he car with jumper cables.=C2- The starter would not turn it past the=0Ac
ompression stroke while on the jumper cables. (My neighbor had heard that i
t=0Awas dangerous to have his car running while jumping off another car, so
we were=0Aon his battery only.=C2- I have never heard of this problem, b
ut that is=0Aanother question.)=0A=C2-=0AI removed the battery, exchanged
it for a=0Anew one, and the car started and ran fine.=C2- No apparent ch
arging problems=0Aafter several thousand miles.=0A=C2-=0ADoes anyone know
what might have happened=0Ato my old battery to cause this sudden failure?
=0A=C2-=0ABill=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Aer
oElectric-List=0A=C2-=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com=0A=C2-=0Ahttp://www
=
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Battery fail question |
At 11:49 AM 6/23/2013, you wrote:
>Bill,
>
>Can you tell us if the 8V was open circuit or under a battery tester load?
>
>The problem with starting jump starting a car with the alternator
>running is that you never really know what the load is going to be.
>For example, if the dead battery is in an "almost shorted"
>condition, the starting battery might survive but what about the
>alternator? They're only rated for so many Amperes.
Generally speaking, you cannot damage an alternator
from electrical overload. They are internally limited
as to how much current they will deliver. The thing
that kills alternators under heavy load is lack of
cooling . . . not delivery of current much above
the nameplate rating.
Bob . . .
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Battery fail question |
Greetings,
I had an experience in the early 90's where the damage to the alternator
on the car being jumped was attributed to the jumping car having it's
engine running. It was a late 80's Ford. The Ford dealer's mechanic
gave the reason, obviously without much discussion of the physics behind
the event :>). I vaguely recall something about regulator frequencies
on the 2 vehicles being in conflict.
It was a long time ago, so take the story for what it's worth.
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
On 06/23/2013 11:35 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
SNIP
>
>> What about the idea of not jumping starting a car with your own
>> engine running?
>> I have done this all my life and have never heard of this being a
>> problem??
>> What could happen??
>
> Not much. If I'm jumpering to a dead battery
> that is otherwise a good battery, I'll leave
> the car running and let the jump-car alternator
> charge the dead battery for a few minutes. This
> greatly improves cranking with the jump.
>
> I don't know where that 'concern' came from. It
> may have roots in the world of spikes and other
> electronics-killing phenomenon.
SNIP
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Battery fail question |
Bill,
I have had the same thing happen a time or two....
One time it was the battery post "clamp" had fractured. It was still on
the post and looked normal but, the fracture opened the post to clamp
and large current could not pass. A new battery cable solved that
problem. However, you proved that was not the problem via the new
battery working normally.
Other failures....if the battery is heavily sulphated (sludge buildup on
the cell bottom) it can short out a cell or more. Internally, it is no
longer an electron generator but, just a poor quality connection inside
the battery. Cells can open too. I am not sure how this happens.
Where the actual "break" occurs.
About jump cables....too my knowledge it is still best to have the
"source" auto (idle) running when jumping the "load" car (the dead one).
It is also best, if time allows to let the jump charging to continue
for some minutes (15 min. ) before trying to start the dead car. This
gives some relief for all the components in the charging loop. The
other new problem is that a lot of charging cables/clamps are much too
wimpy. Always use a heavy duty (old fashion type) set for jumping.
If you are forced to use a wimpy set, be sure to allow a long charge, at
idle rpm, before hitting the start switch on the dead car.
And, as we all should know be very careful of the jump cable attachment
steps. Thru an error in connection, etc. I have viewed a dead battery
literally blow in half and "that is not a good thing" ( as Rod M. would
say...) if someone is leaning over it making the connections....D
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Bradburry
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 5:46 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery fail question
A couple of weeks ago the battery suddenly failed in my '09 Toyota.
The starter had never given any indication that the battery was
getting weak. I drove up to a business just before 5:00 pm, shut off
the car, got out and tried the door on the business.locked! They
closed a few minutes early. Got back in the car and everything was
dead. The panel would not light up. The starter would not click. The
door locks would not work! (good thing I had not locked them when I
went to the door!)
I called my neighbor and he tried to jump the car with jumper cables.
The starter would not turn it past the compression stroke while on the
jumper cables. (My neighbor had heard that it was dangerous to have his
car running while jumping off another car, so we were on his battery
only. I have never heard of this problem, but that is another
question.)
I removed the battery, exchanged it for a new one, and the car started
and ran fine. No apparent charging problems after several thousand
miles.
Does anyone know what might have happened to my old battery to cause
this sudden failure?
Bill
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Battery fail question |
Bob,=0A=0AI know of semiconductors that were damaged from too much current,
and it was heat that killed them.- In fact, I know of semiconductors tha
t were damaged by too much heat, only to fail later.=0A=0AIsn't this the sa
me story here?- You crank and crank and crank, and the alternator tempera
ture goes up and damages the rectifier circuit.- As an outside power sour
ce provider for someone who can't start their engine, I would be concerned
about damage to any part of my electrical system.- You never know what th
e other person is going to do, so I would start with just a battery only.
- If that didn't work, I would try what you said earlier: run the engine
and alternator to charge up both batteries for a few minutes, then turn off
the engine and let the other person try to start his engine.- If that di
dn't work, I would consider allowing the other person to start his car with
my engine running, but she would have to be really good looking! :)=0A=0AL
ast thing I need is a dead car because of someone else's problem.=0A=0A-
=0AHenador Titzoff=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: "Rober
t L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>=0ATo: aeroelectric-list
@matronics.com =0ASent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 12:56 PM=0ASubject: Re: AeroE
lectric-List: Battery fail question=0A =0A=0A=0AAt 11:49 AM 6/23/2013, you
wrote:=0A=0ABill,=0A>=0A>Can you tell us if the 8V was open circuit or unde
r a battery tester=0Aload?=0A>=0A>The problem with starting jump starting a
car with the alternator running=0Ais that you never really know what the l
oad is going to be. For example,=0Aif the dead battery is in an "almost sho
rted" condition, the=0Astarting battery might survive but what about the al
ternator?-=0AThey're only rated for so many Amperes.=0A- Generally spea
king, you cannot damage an alternator=0A- from electrical overload. They
are internally limited=0A- as to how much current they will deliver. The
thing=0A- that kills alternators under heavy load is lack of=0A- coolin
g . . . not delivery of current much above=0A- the nameplate rating.=0A
Message 13
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Subject: | Any thing you can think of to use this product for? |
Hi Group
Any thing you can think of to use this product for, not including coating the spouses
bath towel and per-coating your buddies composite bird just before paint:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZrjXSsfxMQ&feature=player_embedded
Ron Parigoris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403217#403217
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Battery fail question |
>Not turning past compression stroke situation is a poor (high
>resistance) connection or poor quality small AWG booster cables.
>(same high resistance problem) The typical booster cables sold today
>are too small to be of much use. If you look at the cables carried
>by tow trucks they are usually at least #2 if not even #1 or #0.
>Parts store cables are often as small as #8 or even #10.
>
>Bob McC
Excellent point. The lighter gage jumpers are battery
booster cables intended to charge a dead battery while
connected to a vehicle with the engine running.
This is just a heavy duty version of your 1.5 amp
battery maintainer that will charge the battery over
a 10 hour period. The #10 jumpers will let you put
enough charge into a dead battery ro probably start
a car after 10-20 minutes.
Of course, #2 or #4 jumpers will let you handily
crank engines.
Bob . . .
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: Battery fail question |
At 12:28 PM 6/23/2013, you wrote:
>Greetings,
>
>I had an experience in the early 90's where the damage to the
>alternator on the car being jumped was attributed to the jumping car
>having it's engine running. It was a late 80's Ford. The Ford
>dealer's mechanic gave the reason, obviously without much discussion
>of the physics behind the event :>). I vaguely recall something
>about regulator frequencies on the 2 vehicles being in conflict.
I'd be willing to bet that the greatest
risk to the vehicle with the dead battery
is reversed polarity. The dead battery will
offer no significant resistance to the
reversed polarity. A reversal of about
three volts will drive the alternator's
diodes into very hard conduction at what
ever current level the rescue vehicle's
battery will deliver . . . certainly many
hundreds if not over 1000 amps.
This risk would exist whether or not the
rescue vehicle's alternator were running.
Bob . . .
Message 16
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Subject: | Re: Any thing you can think of to use this product |
for?
Just a few quick thoughts:Tent fly; Sail boat sails; Kitchen and bath
surfaces; To keepwindows clear of rain or fogging(like rain-x); Might
decrease drag on boat hulls; possible corrosion protection on
electronics, etc.
How does it affect porosity? How durable is it?
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
On 06/23/2013 01:27 PM, rparigoris wrote:
>
> Hi Group
>
> Any thing you can think of to use this product for, not including coating the
spouses bath towel and per-coating your buddies composite bird just before paint:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZrjXSsfxMQ&feature=player_embedded
>
> Ron Parigoris
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403217#403217
>
>
Message 17
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Subject: | Re: Battery fail question |
From: Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery fail question
Bob,
I know of semiconductors that were damaged from too much current, and
it was heat that killed them. In fact, I know of semiconductors that
were damaged by too much heat, only to fail later.
Inadequately cooled for the task
at hand?
Isn't this the same story here? You crank and crank and crank, and
the alternator temperature goes up and damages the rectifier circuit.
Alternators are inherently current limited.
Unlike generators, the alternator's magnetics
keeps it from delivering more than 10-20% over
nameplate at any load. Alternators are rated
for worst case (hot) conditions. As discussed
some years ago, the 60A breaker on tens of thousands
of Cessna alternator b-leads is DESIGNED to nuisance
trip. A cold 60A alternator will put out 70A or
more until it warms up.
Turn a 60A alternator into a discharged battery
on a cold morning an your risk of popping the 60A
b-lead breaker is higher . . . but you can't
get much more than 70A which falls off as the
alternator warms up.
If the system integrators INTEND that an as-installed
alternator be capable of full rated output at max
operating temperature, then those same integrators
will also have provided cooling . . . to make sure
that perfectly ordinary temperature rise does not
prevent the alternator from working as advertised.
As an outside power source provider for someone who can't start
their engine, I would be concerned about damage to any part of my
electrical system. You never know what the other person is going to
do, so I would start with just a battery only. If that didn't work,
I would try what you said earlier: run the engine and alternator to
charge up both batteries for a few minutes, then turn off the engine
and let the other person try to start his engine. If that didn't
work, I would consider allowing the other person to start his car
with my engine running, but she would have to be really good looking! :)
Last thing I need is a dead car because of someone else's problem.
Okay, let's reverse engineer the feared failure.
Exactly what components are vulnerable and what
sources and magnitude of abuse puts them at risk?
Finally how does that source come into existence
because we've jumpered two systems together?
My point is that we WORRY based on lots of hangar
tales and things we don't understand. As I have
suggested over a long history of reading, analyzing
and harvesting good data from the classic 'dark-n-
stormy-night stories, most cause-and-effect analysis
by the authors is flawed.
If you gave me an airplane (or automobile) and
challenged me to 'make it vulnerable' to a
battery jumping procedure, I wouldn't know where
to start . . . I'm aware of no such components.
Bob . . .
Message 18
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|
Subject: | Re: #2 Welding Cable |
I found that #2 wire is also very heavy, and used the "fatwire" from
perehelion designs; see http://www.periheliondesign.com/fatwires.htm
Bill Allen
Cozy4 EGBJ UK
On 23 June 2013 13:50, Mark Banus <mbanus@hotmail.com> wrote:
> ** **
>
> Bob,****
>
> ** **
>
> Do to W&B considerations I am moving my 2 Panasonic 1220 batteries 8' aft.
> I had originally used #4 as the runs were all short, 18" or less(all
> forward of the firewall). The batteries were initially mounted on the
> forward firewall.****
>
> ** **
>
> As the cable runs are now 9' I intend to use #2 welding cable. Yesterday
> another builder stopped by to "review many progress" and said welding cable
> might not be a good choice aft of the firewall as welding cable gives of
> poisonous fumes if it burns.****
>
> ** **
>
> Comments?****
>
> ** **
>
> Mark Banus****
>
> Glasair SIIS FT ****
>
> N600****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 19
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Subject: | Re: Any thing you can think of to use this product |
for?
Leading edge anti-ice coating?
Rumen
---- rparigoris <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote:
============
Hi Group
Any thing you can think of to use this product for, not including coating the spouses
bath towel and per-coating your buddies composite bird just before paint:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZrjXSsfxMQ&feature=player_embedded
Ron Parigoris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403217#403217
Message 20
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Subject: | Re: Battery fail question |
Good points, Bob.- You've done the homework to determine that there are n
o extreme currents causing thermal problems in vehicle and aircraft alterna
tors.- I'll accept that!=0A=0A-=0AHenador Titzoff=0A=0A=0A_____________
___________________=0A From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroel
ectric.com>=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Sunday, June 23,
2013 3:15 PM=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery fail question=0A
uckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>=0A=0AFrom: Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff@y
ahoo.com>=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery fail question=0ATo: "ae
roelectric-list@matronics.com" <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>=0A=0A=0ABo
b,=0A=0AI know of semiconductors that were damaged from too much current, a
nd =0Ait was heat that killed them.- In fact, I know of semiconductors th
at =0Awere damaged by too much heat, only to fail later.=0A=0A- - - I
nadequately cooled for the task=0A- - - at hand?=0A=0AIsn't this the
same story here?- You crank and crank and crank, and =0Athe alternator te
mperature goes up and damages the rectifier circuit.=0A=0A=0A- - - Al
ternators are inherently current limited.=0A- - - Unlike generators,
the alternator's magnetics=0A- - - keeps it from delivering more than
10-20% over=0A- - - nameplate at any load. Alternators are rated=0A
- - - for worst case (hot) conditions. As discussed=0A- - - som
e years ago, the 60A breaker on tens of thousands=0A- - - of Cessna a
lternator b-leads is DESIGNED to nuisance=0A- - - trip.- A cold 60A
alternator will put out 70A or=0A- - - more until it warms up.=0A=0A
- - - Turn a 60A alternator into a discharged battery=0A- - - o
n a cold morning an your risk of popping the 60A=0A- - - b-lead break
er is higher . . . but you can't=0A- - - get much more than 70A which
falls off as the=0A- - - alternator warms up.=0A=0A- - - If th
e system integrators INTEND that an as-installed=0A- - - alternator b
e capable of full rated output at max=0A- - - operating temperature,
then those same integrators=0A- - - will also have provided cooling .
. . to make sure=0A- - - that perfectly ordinary temperature rise do
es not=0A- - - prevent the alternator from working as advertised.=0A
=0A- As an outside power source provider for someone who can't start =0A
their engine, I would be concerned about damage to any part of my =0Aelectr
ical system.- You never know what the other person is going to =0Ado, so
I would start with just a battery only.- If that didn't work, =0AI would
try what you said earlier: run the engine and alternator to =0Acharge up bo
th batteries for a few minutes, then turn off the engine =0Aand let the oth
er person try to start his engine.- If that didn't =0Awork, I would consi
der allowing the other person to start his car =0Awith my engine running, b
ut she would have to be really good looking! :)=0A=0ALast thing I need is a
dead car because of someone else's problem.=0A=0A- - - Okay, let's r
everse engineer the feared failure.=0A- - - Exactly what components a
re vulnerable and what=0A- - - sources and magnitude of abuse puts th
em at risk?=0A- - - Finally how does that source come into existence
=0A- - - because we've jumpered two systems together?=0A=0A- -
- My point is that we WORRY based on lots of hangar=0A- - - tales a
nd things we don't understand. As I have=0A- - - suggested over a lon
g history of reading, analyzing=0A- - - and harvesting good data from
the classic 'dark-n-=0A- - - stormy-night stories, most cause-and-ef
fect analysis=0A- - - by the authors is flawed.=0A=0A- - - If y
ou gave me an airplane (or automobile) and=0A- - - challenged me to '
make it vulnerable' to a=0A- - - battery jumping procedure, I wouldn'
t know where=0A- - - to start . . . I'm aware of no such components.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
====
Message 21
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Subject: | Re: Any thing you can think of to use this product |
for?
It's available at Home Depot
<http://www.homedepot.com/p/Rust-Oleum-Stops-Rust-18-oz-NeverWet-Multi-Purpose-Spray-Kit-274232/204216476>
BTW.
However, this version dries cloudy/translucent, so not suitable for
canopies :(, and dries a little fuzzy or rough apparently so not good for
leading edges either. Still, this is only the beginning. Perhaps in a few
years similar products better suited for our aircraft will be available.
On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 1:01 PM, <rd2@dejazzd.com> wrote:
>
> Leading edge anti-ice coating?
> Rumen
>
> ---- rparigoris <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote:
>
> ============
> rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
>
> Hi Group
>
> Any thing you can think of to use this product for, not including coating
> the spouses bath towel and per-coating your buddies composite bird just
> before paint:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZrjXSsfxMQ&feature=player_embedded
>
> Ron Parigoris
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403217#403217
>
>
Message 22
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Subject: | Re: Any thing you can think of to use this product |
for?
similar material tried by local engineer. Coated inside of his 2 stage snow blower
chute and no ice stuck to it
----- Original Message -----
From: Ralph Finch <ralphmariafinch@gmail.com>
Sent: Sun, 23 Jun 2013 15:13:47 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Any thing you can think of to use this product
for?
It's available at Home Depot
<http://www.homedepot.com/p/Rust-Oleum-Stops-Rust-18-oz-NeverWet-Multi-Purpose-Spray-Kit-274232/204216476>
BTW.
However, this version dries cloudy/translucent, so not suitable for
canopies :(, and dries a little fuzzy or rough apparently so not good for
leading edges either. Still, this is only the beginning. Perhaps in a few
years similar products better suited for our aircraft will be available.
On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 1:01 PM, <rd2@dejazzd.com> wrote:
>
> Leading edge anti-ice coating?
> Rumen
>
> ---- rparigoris <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote:
>
> ============
> rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
>
> Hi Group
>
> Any thing you can think of to use this product for, not including coating
> the spouses bath towel and per-coating your buddies composite bird just
> before paint:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZrjXSsfxMQ&feature=player_embedded
>
> Ron Parigoris
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403217#403217
>
>
Message 23
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Subject: | Re: Battery fail question |
Minor corrosion at a battery terminal can cause the identical symptoms.
In a car, one of the first troubleshooting steps is to turn on the headlights.
Often they will light up, but turning the key to start makes the headlights go
out and stay out even after the key is released; they will not light up again
until you jiggle a cable. In this case, suspect corrosion and/or a very weak
battery connection.
When commercial jumpers are clamped over the battery terminals, they provide a
boost, but the long length of the smaller cables often are not enough to crank
a high compression engine by themselves when the cars battery is completely dead
or electrically disconnected. If the cars battery is very weak but connections
are OK, sometimes just sitting for ten minutes with the jumpers connected
will transfer enough juice from the donor battery to get you going. And yes,
things work a lot better/faster with the donor cars engine running.
--------
Jerry King
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403244#403244
Message 24
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Subject: | Any thing you can think of to use this product |
for?
anti icing....
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rayj
Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Any thing you can think of to use this
product for?
Just a few quick thoughts: Tent fly; Sail boat sails; Kitchen and bath
surfaces; To keep windows clear of rain or fogging(like rain-x); Might
decrease drag on boat hulls; possible corrosion protection on electronics,
etc.
How does it affect porosity? How durable is it?
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
On 06/23/2013 01:27 PM, rparigoris wrote:
<mailto:rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us> <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Hi Group
Any thing you can think of to use this product for, not including coating
the spouses bath towel and per-coating your buddies composite bird just
before paint:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZrjXSsfxMQ
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZrjXSsfxMQ&feature=player_embedded>
&feature=player_embedded
Ron Parigoris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403217#403217
Message 25
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Subject: | Re: #2 Welding Cable |
Please, can I say something?=0A=0AMy first comment may be, "What doesn't pr
oduce noxious fumes when it burns?"-=0A=0AWell, a goodly amount of weldin
g cable, it seems. It just doesn't burn.-=0A=0ASome does.-One insulatio
n for welding wire is treated neoprene rubber. I remember some time ago (wh
en I was a chemical rep) there was a big discussion on the use of ETU (Ethy
lene Thiouria sp?) as it was used in the vulcanization process. (There may
be other methods in use now.) And neoprene rubber burns.-=0A=0AEPDM does
not.=0A=0ABTW, both come in red and I can't tell you why so few use this co
lour on their + battery runs.-=0A=0A=0AWhat is not supposed to burn is EP
DM. -Ethylene propylene diene monomer is, I think, the most common store
bought welding cable insulation. The price for a brand name is roughly the
same as for neoprene. However, I (that would be me but you have your own ch
oices to make) would not use EPDM in this application as it has-significa
ntly lower resistance to grease and oil than neoprene. Apart from that, EPD
M and neoprene are pretty much equal in strength, abrasion resistance and s
o on so FFW I would have no temptation to use EPDM --except that EPDM is
not supposed to be flammable.-Much of the surplus welding cable I have en
countered seems to be neoprene, but I wouldn't count on it. (They both come
in different colours and finishes.) So, with EPDM, no poisonous fumes. It
doesn't burn. Put that in your pipe and try and smoke it!-=0A=0AThe neopr
ene cable I am most familiar with is the Carol Brand made stuff (now Genera
l Cable.) General Cable makes even more rugged wire, but I have never seen
it in use - only on sample boards. In the spec sheets, GC calls US made Car
olprene flame resistant. The big welding stores sell this stuff by the ligh
t year.=0A=0AI do know that Carolprene finds its way inside mines, factorie
s, etc. where there are going to be major concerns in the case of fire. I h
ave been around this or similar products most of my life and have never see
n it burn. Granted, I have never intentionally taken a torch to the stuff b
ut I can tell you it exists in seriously harsh environments. (It pulls back
if you solder it with a torch so I learned to make good crimps. That's one
expensive(!) crimper [so borrow] but I was always able to find good termin
als surplus. DKW.)=0A=0ANext time I see a wire rep, I'll ask if he can give
me the burn temperature for the insulation. A brief hunt-http://msds.dup
ont.com/msds/pdfs/EN/PEN_09004a35803d9eb8.pdf-reveals that plain ol' neop
rene "burns" (flashpoint, open cup) at above F500 (C260) degrees. For refer
ence, wood burns at about C300 degrees.-The fumes from neoprene ARE toxic
and noxious. They can cause permanent lung damage.=0A=0AEven though EPDM i
s NOT flammable it's maximum listed service temp is C150 degrees.-So if y
ou want, run as much as you like inside your aircraft and dare your buddies
to burn it.-Under the hood, EPDM does find it's way into ignition wires,
but to my mind this is an item you replace every annual. If you build nose
heavy and put your battery(s) in the tail, then this might be just the pla
ce to run EPDM!-=0A=0AMore importantly, I think, than insulation is wire
strand size. I have seen a LOT of very heavy strand stuff called welding ca
ble even though it would never be tolerated. Acceptable stranding should be
no larger than 0.010. All the good stuff is.=0A=0AIn addition to Bob's com
ments about fusing: I guess you could always put in a fusible link if you R
EALLY felt the need. This just seems like an additional and unnecessary fai
lure point (more connections) to me. I wouldn't do it. ( Aside: As a teen,
I had a '74 Mazda Rotary with a failed fuse link that took me days to find.
They also ran all the current through the ammeter; something I learned not
to do thanks to that experience.)-=0A=0AIn the one aircraft I have built
and the two projects I am working on, I installed a cable or rod operated
mechanical battery switch and no solenoid. (A switch needs no current to st
ay on.)-Either way, I don't know if I would remember to turn off an ignit
ion switch or flip a battery switch (and turn off the fuel and turn off the
fuel pump and so on) if I was in a hurry to get out of the way. Maybe that
requires practice on my part. I remember reading a tale of a WW2 pilot who
bailed out and felt cheated at just that moment as in all his training the
y never even gave him a minutes instruction - let alone practice - on how t
o deplane ("Not now, Tatoo. I'm busy admiring the Corinthian Leather seats
in my Volare."*) when he wasn't on the ground.=0A=0AAll this conversation a
bout safety... How many of us wear a parachute?=0A=0A*"De plane, Boss! De p
lane!" If this makes no sense to you, I feel very old.=0A=0A=0ANeoprene doe
s not appear to be a trademark, hence I -avoided capitalization as it is
a -generic term.-=0A=0A=0A-Robert=0A-=0A=0A=0A_______________________
_________=0A From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com
>=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 6:55
:03 AM=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: #2 Welding Cable=0A =0A=0A=0ABob,
=0A=0ADo to W&B considerations I am moving my 2 Panasonic 1220 batteries 8'
=0Aaft. I had originally used #4 as the runs were all short, 18" or=0Aless(
all forward of the firewall). The batteries were initially mounted=0Aon the
forward firewall.=0A=0AAs the cable runs are now 9' I intend to use #2 wel
ding cable. Yesterday=0Aanother builder stopped by to "review many progress
" and said=0Awelding cable might not be a good choice aft of the firewall a
s welding=0Acable gives of poisonous fumes if it burns.=0A=0AComments?=0A
=0A-- When ANY insulation burns, the products of=0A-- combustion ar
e exceedingly unfriendly=0A-- to children and other living things.=0A
=0A-- There are folks who make it their life's=0A-- work to 'reduce
risk' . . . even to the point=0A-- of codifying their profundities and
threatening=0A-- you with retribution for regulatory=0A-- transgre
ssion.=0A=0A-- In THIS case: What conditions would cause the=0A-- i
nsulation on these cables to burn? Electrical=0A-- overload is one . .
. externally applied fire=0A-- is the other.=0A=0A-- The risks for
electrically induced overload are=0A-- so tiny that certified iron of a
ll sizes does=0A-- not add overload protection to these wires.=0A--
=0A-- In FAR23.1357 we find these words:=0A=0ASec. 23.1357-- Circu
it protective devices.=0A=0A(a) Protective devices, such as fuses or circui
t breakers, must=0Abe=0Ainstalled in all electrical circuits other than--
=0A(1) Main circuits of starter motors used during starting only; and=0A(2)
Circuits in which no hazard is presented by their omission.=0A=0A---
If you've got active fire in the aircraft=0A--- that threatens to ig
nite your wire's insulation,=0A--- then I suggest your risk issues go
far beyond=0A--- any concerns for the quality of the smoke.=0A=0A-
-- Bottom line is that while those-who-know-more-=0A--- about-air
planes-than-we-do will prohibit certain=0A--- insulations in new desi
gn, they still permit=0A--- an older airplane to be repaired with the
SAME=0A--- insulations that were on the original type=0A--- ce
rtificate.=0A=0A--- For example, a 1946 C-140 wired with cotton over
=0A--- rubber wire or a 1968 C-172 wired with nylon over=0A---
PVC can be repaired with the same wire. If the=0A--- admonitions for
controlling cockpit pollution=0A--- were imperatives, then one would
think that any=0A--- airplane brought in for repairs should be=0A-
-- completely re-wired.=0A=0A--- The short answer is that risks t
o your future=0A--- well being due to poor selection of insulation=0A
--- are vanishingly small compared to risks=0A--- for bird stri
ke, wind shear . . . or running=0A--- out of fuel.=0A=0A=0A- Bob .
==================
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