AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Sun 06/23/13


Total Messages Posted: 25



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 05:47 AM - Battery fail question (Bill Bradburry)
     2. 05:50 AM - #2 Welding Cable (Mark Banus)
     3. 05:59 AM - Re: Battery fail question (bob noffs)
     4. 06:55 AM - Re: #2 Welding Cable (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     5. 07:26 AM - Re: Battery fail question (Bob McCallum)
     6. 08:29 AM - Re: Battery fail question (Bill Bradburry)
     7. 09:36 AM - Re: Battery fail question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     8. 09:49 AM - Re: Battery fail question (Henador Titzoff)
     9. 09:57 AM - Re: Battery fail question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    10. 10:28 AM - Re: Battery fail question (rayj)
    11. 10:43 AM - Re: Battery fail question (David Lloyd)
    12. 11:00 AM - Re: Battery fail question (Henador Titzoff)
    13. 11:27 AM - Any thing you can think of to use this product for? (rparigoris)
    14. 11:53 AM - Re: Battery fail question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    15. 11:58 AM - Re: Battery fail question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    16. 12:10 PM - Re: Any thing you can think of to use this product for? (rayj)
    17. 12:15 PM - Re: Battery fail question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    18. 12:45 PM - Re: #2 Welding Cable (Bill Allen)
    19. 01:01 PM - Re: Any thing you can think of to use this product for? ()
    20. 01:08 PM - Re: Battery fail question (Henador Titzoff)
    21. 01:14 PM - Re: Any thing you can think of to use this product for? (Ralph Finch)
    22. 02:14 PM - Re: Any thing you can think of to use this product for? (fedico94@mchsi.com)
    23. 03:57 PM - Re: Battery fail question (racerjerry)
    24. 08:12 PM - Re: Any thing you can think of to use this product for? (Tim Yoder)
    25. 09:24 PM - Re: #2 Welding Cable (robert wiebe)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 05:47:45 AM PST US
    From: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Battery fail question
    A couple of weeks ago the battery suddenly failed in my '09 Toyota. The starter had never given any indication that the battery was getting weak. I drove up to a business just before 5:00 pm, shut off the car, got out and tried the door on the business.locked! They closed a few minutes early. Got back in the car and everything was dead. The panel would not light up. The starter would not click. The door locks would not work! (good thing I had not locked them when I went to the door!) I called my neighbor and he tried to jump the car with jumper cables. The starter would not turn it past the compression stroke while on the jumper cables. (My neighbor had heard that it was dangerous to have his car running while jumping off another car, so we were on his battery only. I have never heard of this problem, but that is another question.) I removed the battery, exchanged it for a new one, and the car started and ran fine. No apparent charging problems after several thousand miles. Does anyone know what might have happened to my old battery to cause this sudden failure? Bill


    Message 2


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    Time: 05:50:32 AM PST US
    From: Mark Banus <mbanus@hotmail.com>
    Subject: #2 Welding Cable
    Bob, Do to W&B considerations I am moving my 2 Panasonic 1220 batteries 8' aft. I had originally used #4 as the runs were all short, 18" or less(all forward of the firewall). The batteries were initially mounted on the forward firewall. As the cable runs are now 9' I intend to use #2 welding cable. Yesterday another builder stopped by to "review many progress" and said welding cable might not be a good choice aft of the firewall as welding cable gives of poisonous fumes if it burns. Comments? Mark Banus Glasair SIIS FT N600


    Message 3


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    Time: 05:59:13 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Battery fail question
    From: bob noffs <icubob@gmail.com>
    my wild guess is that a part of the battery broke loose and shorted out a cell on the inside. about the same thing on my second car right now.battery was 12 yrs old though so no complaints. bob noffs On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 7:46 AM, Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>w rote: > ** ** > > A couple of weeks ago the battery suddenly failed in my =9209 ****Toyota* ***. > **** > > The starter had never given any indication that the battery was getting > weak. I drove up to a business just before 5:00 pm, shut off the car, go t > out and tried the door on the business=85locked! They closed a few minu tes > early. Got back in the car and everything was dead. The panel would not > light up. The starter would not click. The door locks would not work! > (good thing I had not locked them when I went to the door!)**** > > I called my neighbor and he tried to jump the car with jumper cables. Th e > starter would not turn it past the compression stroke while on the jumper > cables. (My neighbor had heard that it was dangerous to have his car > running while jumping off another car, so we were on his battery only. I > have never heard of this problem, but that is another question.)**** > > ** ** > > I removed the battery, exchanged it for a new one, and the car started an d > ran fine. No apparent charging problems after several thousand miles.*** * > > ** ** > > Does anyone know what might have happened to my old battery to cause this > sudden failure?**** > > ** ** > > Bill**** > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > >


    Message 4


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    Time: 06:55:47 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: #2 Welding Cable
    Bob, Do to W&B considerations I am moving my 2 Panasonic 1220 batteries 8' aft. I had originally used #4 as the runs were all short, 18" or less(all forward of the firewall). The batteries were initially mounted on the forward firewall. As the cable runs are now 9' I intend to use #2 welding cable. Yesterday another builder stopped by to "review many progress" and said welding cable might not be a good choice aft of the firewall as welding cable gives of poisonous fumes if it burns. Comments? When ANY insulation burns, the products of combustion are exceedingly unfriendly to children and other living things. There are folks who make it their life's work to 'reduce risk' . . . even to the point of codifying their profundities and threatening you with retribution for regulatory transgression. In THIS case: What conditions would cause the insulation on these cables to burn? Electrical overload is one . . . externally applied fire is the other. The risks for electrically induced overload are so tiny that certified iron of all sizes does not add overload protection to these wires. In FAR23.1357 we find these words: Sec. 23.1357 Circuit protective devices. (a) Protective devices, such as fuses or circuit breakers, must be installed in all electrical circuits other than-- (1) Main circuits of starter motors used during starting only; and (2) Circuits in which no hazard is presented by their omission. If you've got active fire in the aircraft that threatens to ignite your wire's insulation, then I suggest your risk issues go far beyond any concerns for the quality of the smoke. Bottom line is that while those-who-know-more- about-airplanes-than-we-do will prohibit certain insulations in new design, they still permit an older airplane to be repaired with the SAME insulations that were on the original type certificate. For example, a 1946 C-140 wired with cotton over rubber wire or a 1968 C-172 wired with nylon over PVC can be repaired with the same wire. If the admonitions for controlling cockpit pollution were imperatives, then one would think that any airplane brought in for repairs should be completely re-wired. The short answer is that risks to your future well being due to poor selection of insulation are vanishingly small compared to risks for bird strike, wind shear . . . or running out of fuel. Bob . . .


    Message 5


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    Time: 07:26:36 AM PST US
    From: Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca>
    Subject: Battery fail question
    Bill; Most likely a broken inter-cell connection causing an open circuit within the battery. (vibration induced) For at least the latter part of that last trip you were probably operating alternator only and when you shut down you had "nothing". Not turning past compression stroke situation is a poor (high resistance) connection or poor quality small AWG booster cables. (same high resistance problem) The typical booster cables sold today are too small to be of much use. If you look at the cables carried by tow trucks they are usually at least #2 if not even #1 or #0. Parts store cables are often as small as #8 or even #10. Bob McC _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 8:47 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery fail question A couple of weeks ago the battery suddenly failed in my '09 Toyota. The starter had never given any indication that the battery was getting weak. I drove up to a business just before 5:00 pm, shut off the car, got out and tried the door on the business.locked! They closed a few minutes early. Got back in the car and everything was dead. The panel would not light up. The starter would not click. The door locks would not work! (good thing I had not locked them when I went to the door!) I called my neighbor and he tried to jump the car with jumper cables. The starter would not turn it past the compression stroke while on the jumper cables. (My neighbor had heard that it was dangerous to have his car running while jumping off another car, so we were on his battery only. I have never heard of this problem, but that is another question.) I removed the battery, exchanged it for a new one, and the car started and ran fine. No apparent charging problems after several thousand miles. Does anyone know what might have happened to my old battery to cause this sudden failure? Bill


    Message 6


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    Time: 08:29:41 AM PST US
    From: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Battery fail question
    I left out the fact that the battery tested to have 8 volts when I took it to the store to get a new battery. That would go along with your theory of a broken internal connection I would suppose? What about the idea of not jumping starting a car with your own engine running? I have done this all my life and have never heard of this being a problem?? What could happen?? Bill _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob McCallum Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 10:26 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Battery fail question Bill; Most likely a broken inter-cell connection causing an open circuit within the battery. (vibration induced) For at least the latter part of that last trip you were probably operating alternator only and when you shut down you had "nothing". Not turning past compression stroke situation is a poor (high resistance) connection or poor quality small AWG booster cables. (same high resistance problem) The typical booster cables sold today are too small to be of much use. If you look at the cables carried by tow trucks they are usually at least #2 if not even #1 or #0. Parts store cables are often as small as #8 or even #10. Bob McC _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 8:47 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery fail question A couple of weeks ago the battery suddenly failed in my '09 Toyota. The starter had never given any indication that the battery was getting weak. I drove up to a business just before 5:00 pm, shut off the car, got out and tried the door on the business.locked! They closed a few minutes early. Got back in the car and everything was dead. The panel would not light up. The starter would not click. The door locks would not work! (good thing I had not locked them when I went to the door!) I called my neighbor and he tried to jump the car with jumper cables. The starter would not turn it past the compression stroke while on the jumper cables. (My neighbor had heard that it was dangerous to have his car running while jumping off another car, so we were on his battery only. I have never heard of this problem, but that is another question.) I removed the battery, exchanged it for a new one, and the car started and ran fine. No apparent charging problems after several thousand miles. Does anyone know what might have happened to my old battery to cause this sudden failure? Bill http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution


    Message 7


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    Time: 09:36:34 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Battery fail question
    At 10:16 AM 6/23/2013, you wrote: >I left out the fact that the battery tested to have 8 volts when I >took it to the store to get a new battery. Aha . . . perhaps it was a 4-cell battery . . . i've seen single-cell shorts take a tired battery down to 10 . . . but two cells at the same time. > That would go along with your theory of a broken internal > connection I would suppose? A broken connection would get you a zero-volts battery . . . >What about the idea of not jumping starting a car with your own >engine running? > I have done this all my life and have never heard of this being a problem?? > What could happen?? Not much. If I'm jumpering to a dead battery that is otherwise a good battery, I'll leave the car running and let the jump-car alternator charge the dead battery for a few minutes. This greatly improves cranking with the jump. I don't know where that 'concern' came from. It may have roots in the world of spikes and other electronics-killing phenomenon. How old was this battery? Had it ever suffered long term discharge? I had a 4-year old battery take me home from Walmart one day with no indication of weakness. Got home and remembered something I still needed. Got back into car and the battery was unable to crank the engine. Now, if it had just failed before I drove out of the Walmart parking lot instead of after I got home! Your 8-volt observation could be tire cells, and/or one or more shorted cells. Only a bench examination would reveal the whole story. Bob . . .


    Message 8


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    Time: 09:49:40 AM PST US
    From: Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Battery fail question
    Bill,=0A=0ACan you tell us if the 8V was open circuit or under a battery te ster load?=0A=0AThe problem with starting jump starting a car with the alte rnator running is that you never really know what the load is going to be. For example, if the dead battery is in an "almost shorted" condition, the s tarting battery might survive but what about the alternator?=C2- They're only rated for so many Amperes.=0A=C2-=0AHenador Titzoff=0A=0A=0A________ ________________________=0A From: Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net> =0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 11:16 AM=0ASubject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Battery fail question=0A =0A=0A=0A =0AI left out the fact that the battery=0Atested to have 8 volts when I too k it to the store to get a new battery.=C2- That=0Awould go along with yo ur theory of a broken internal connection I would suppose?=0AWhat about the idea of not jumping starting=0Aa car with your own engine running?=C2- I have done this all my life and have=0Anever heard of this being a problem? ?=C2- What could happen??=0A=C2-=0ABill=0A=C2-=0A=0A_________________ _______________=0A =0AFrom:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com=0A[ mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob McCal lum=0ASent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 10:26=0AAM=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matron ics.com=0ASubject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Battery fail question=0A=C2-=0A Bill;=0A=C2-=0AMost=0Alikely a broken inter-cell connection causing an op en circuit within the=0Abattery. (vibration induced) For at least the latte r part of that last trip you=0Awere probably operating alternator only and when you shut down you had=0A=9Cnothing=9D. Not turning past co mpression stroke situation is a poor=0A(high resistance) connection or poor quality small AWG booster cables. (same=0Ahigh resistance problem) The typ ical booster cables sold today are too small to=0Abe of much use. If you lo ok at the cables carried by tow trucks they are=0Ausually at least #2 if no t even #1 or #0. Parts store cables are often as small=0Aas #8 or even #10. =0A=C2-=0ABob McC=0A=C2-=0A=0A________________________________=0A =0AFr om:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com=0A[mailto:owner-aeroelectri c-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry=0ASent: Sunday, Ju ne 23, 2013 8:47=0AAM=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Aero Electric-List: Battery fail question=0A=C2-=0AA couple of weeks ago the b attery suddenly=0Afailed in my =9909 Toyota .=C2- =0AThe starter ha d never given any indication=0Athat the battery was getting weak.=C2- I d rove up to a business just before=0A5:00 pm, shut off the car, got out and tried the door on the=0Abusinesslocked! =C2-=C2-They closed a few minutes early.=C2- Got=0Aback in the car and everything was dead.=C2 - The panel would not light=0Aup.=C2- The starter would not click.=C2 - The door locks would not=0Awork!=C2- (good thing I had not locked the m when I went to the door!)=0AI called my neighbor and he tried to jump=0At he car with jumper cables.=C2- The starter would not turn it past the=0Ac ompression stroke while on the jumper cables. (My neighbor had heard that i t=0Awas dangerous to have his car running while jumping off another car, so we were=0Aon his battery only.=C2- I have never heard of this problem, b ut that is=0Aanother question.)=0A=C2-=0AI removed the battery, exchanged it for a=0Anew one, and the car started and ran fine.=C2- No apparent ch arging problems=0Aafter several thousand miles.=0A=C2-=0ADoes anyone know what might have happened=0Ato my old battery to cause this sudden failure? =0A=C2-=0ABill=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Aer oElectric-List=0A=C2-=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com=0A=C2-=0Ahttp://www =


    Message 9


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    Time: 09:57:17 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Battery fail question
    At 11:49 AM 6/23/2013, you wrote: >Bill, > >Can you tell us if the 8V was open circuit or under a battery tester load? > >The problem with starting jump starting a car with the alternator >running is that you never really know what the load is going to be. >For example, if the dead battery is in an "almost shorted" >condition, the starting battery might survive but what about the >alternator? They're only rated for so many Amperes. Generally speaking, you cannot damage an alternator from electrical overload. They are internally limited as to how much current they will deliver. The thing that kills alternators under heavy load is lack of cooling . . . not delivery of current much above the nameplate rating. Bob . . .


    Message 10


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    Time: 10:28:47 AM PST US
    From: rayj <raymondj@frontiernet.net>
    Subject: Re: Battery fail question
    Greetings, I had an experience in the early 90's where the damage to the alternator on the car being jumped was attributed to the jumping car having it's engine running. It was a late 80's Ford. The Ford dealer's mechanic gave the reason, obviously without much discussion of the physics behind the event :>). I vaguely recall something about regulator frequencies on the 2 vehicles being in conflict. It was a long time ago, so take the story for what it's worth. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 06/23/2013 11:35 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: SNIP > >> What about the idea of not jumping starting a car with your own >> engine running? >> I have done this all my life and have never heard of this being a >> problem?? >> What could happen?? > > Not much. If I'm jumpering to a dead battery > that is otherwise a good battery, I'll leave > the car running and let the jump-car alternator > charge the dead battery for a few minutes. This > greatly improves cranking with the jump. > > I don't know where that 'concern' came from. It > may have roots in the world of spikes and other > electronics-killing phenomenon. SNIP


    Message 11


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    Time: 10:43:59 AM PST US
    From: "David Lloyd" <skywagon@charter.net>
    Subject: Re: Battery fail question
    Bill, I have had the same thing happen a time or two.... One time it was the battery post "clamp" had fractured. It was still on the post and looked normal but, the fracture opened the post to clamp and large current could not pass. A new battery cable solved that problem. However, you proved that was not the problem via the new battery working normally. Other failures....if the battery is heavily sulphated (sludge buildup on the cell bottom) it can short out a cell or more. Internally, it is no longer an electron generator but, just a poor quality connection inside the battery. Cells can open too. I am not sure how this happens. Where the actual "break" occurs. About jump cables....too my knowledge it is still best to have the "source" auto (idle) running when jumping the "load" car (the dead one). It is also best, if time allows to let the jump charging to continue for some minutes (15 min. ) before trying to start the dead car. This gives some relief for all the components in the charging loop. The other new problem is that a lot of charging cables/clamps are much too wimpy. Always use a heavy duty (old fashion type) set for jumping. If you are forced to use a wimpy set, be sure to allow a long charge, at idle rpm, before hitting the start switch on the dead car. And, as we all should know be very careful of the jump cable attachment steps. Thru an error in connection, etc. I have viewed a dead battery literally blow in half and "that is not a good thing" ( as Rod M. would say...) if someone is leaning over it making the connections....D ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Bradburry To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 5:46 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery fail question A couple of weeks ago the battery suddenly failed in my '09 Toyota. The starter had never given any indication that the battery was getting weak. I drove up to a business just before 5:00 pm, shut off the car, got out and tried the door on the business.locked! They closed a few minutes early. Got back in the car and everything was dead. The panel would not light up. The starter would not click. The door locks would not work! (good thing I had not locked them when I went to the door!) I called my neighbor and he tried to jump the car with jumper cables. The starter would not turn it past the compression stroke while on the jumper cables. (My neighbor had heard that it was dangerous to have his car running while jumping off another car, so we were on his battery only. I have never heard of this problem, but that is another question.) I removed the battery, exchanged it for a new one, and the car started and ran fine. No apparent charging problems after several thousand miles. Does anyone know what might have happened to my old battery to cause this sudden failure? Bill


    Message 12


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    Time: 11:00:55 AM PST US
    From: Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Battery fail question
    Bob,=0A=0AI know of semiconductors that were damaged from too much current, and it was heat that killed them.- In fact, I know of semiconductors tha t were damaged by too much heat, only to fail later.=0A=0AIsn't this the sa me story here?- You crank and crank and crank, and the alternator tempera ture goes up and damages the rectifier circuit.- As an outside power sour ce provider for someone who can't start their engine, I would be concerned about damage to any part of my electrical system.- You never know what th e other person is going to do, so I would start with just a battery only. - If that didn't work, I would try what you said earlier: run the engine and alternator to charge up both batteries for a few minutes, then turn off the engine and let the other person try to start his engine.- If that di dn't work, I would consider allowing the other person to start his car with my engine running, but she would have to be really good looking! :)=0A=0AL ast thing I need is a dead car because of someone else's problem.=0A=0A- =0AHenador Titzoff=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: "Rober t L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>=0ATo: aeroelectric-list @matronics.com =0ASent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 12:56 PM=0ASubject: Re: AeroE lectric-List: Battery fail question=0A =0A=0A=0AAt 11:49 AM 6/23/2013, you wrote:=0A=0ABill,=0A>=0A>Can you tell us if the 8V was open circuit or unde r a battery tester=0Aload?=0A>=0A>The problem with starting jump starting a car with the alternator running=0Ais that you never really know what the l oad is going to be. For example,=0Aif the dead battery is in an "almost sho rted" condition, the=0Astarting battery might survive but what about the al ternator?-=0AThey're only rated for so many Amperes.=0A- Generally spea king, you cannot damage an alternator=0A- from electrical overload. They are internally limited=0A- as to how much current they will deliver. The thing=0A- that kills alternators under heavy load is lack of=0A- coolin g . . . not delivery of current much above=0A- the nameplate rating.=0A


    Message 13


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    Time: 11:27:58 AM PST US
    Subject: Any thing you can think of to use this product for?
    From: "rparigoris" <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
    Hi Group Any thing you can think of to use this product for, not including coating the spouses bath towel and per-coating your buddies composite bird just before paint: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZrjXSsfxMQ&feature=player_embedded Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403217#403217


    Message 14


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    Time: 11:53:07 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Battery fail question
    >Not turning past compression stroke situation is a poor (high >resistance) connection or poor quality small AWG booster cables. >(same high resistance problem) The typical booster cables sold today >are too small to be of much use. If you look at the cables carried >by tow trucks they are usually at least #2 if not even #1 or #0. >Parts store cables are often as small as #8 or even #10. > >Bob McC Excellent point. The lighter gage jumpers are battery booster cables intended to charge a dead battery while connected to a vehicle with the engine running. This is just a heavy duty version of your 1.5 amp battery maintainer that will charge the battery over a 10 hour period. The #10 jumpers will let you put enough charge into a dead battery ro probably start a car after 10-20 minutes. Of course, #2 or #4 jumpers will let you handily crank engines. Bob . . .


    Message 15


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    Time: 11:58:50 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Battery fail question
    At 12:28 PM 6/23/2013, you wrote: >Greetings, > >I had an experience in the early 90's where the damage to the >alternator on the car being jumped was attributed to the jumping car >having it's engine running. It was a late 80's Ford. The Ford >dealer's mechanic gave the reason, obviously without much discussion >of the physics behind the event :>). I vaguely recall something >about regulator frequencies on the 2 vehicles being in conflict. I'd be willing to bet that the greatest risk to the vehicle with the dead battery is reversed polarity. The dead battery will offer no significant resistance to the reversed polarity. A reversal of about three volts will drive the alternator's diodes into very hard conduction at what ever current level the rescue vehicle's battery will deliver . . . certainly many hundreds if not over 1000 amps. This risk would exist whether or not the rescue vehicle's alternator were running. Bob . . .


    Message 16


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    Time: 12:10:09 PM PST US
    From: rayj <raymondj@frontiernet.net>
    Subject: Re: Any thing you can think of to use this product
    for? Just a few quick thoughts:Tent fly; Sail boat sails; Kitchen and bath surfaces; To keepwindows clear of rain or fogging(like rain-x); Might decrease drag on boat hulls; possible corrosion protection on electronics, etc. How does it affect porosity? How durable is it? Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 06/23/2013 01:27 PM, rparigoris wrote: > > Hi Group > > Any thing you can think of to use this product for, not including coating the spouses bath towel and per-coating your buddies composite bird just before paint: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZrjXSsfxMQ&feature=player_embedded > > Ron Parigoris > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403217#403217 > >


    Message 17


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    Time: 12:15:55 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Battery fail question
    From: Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery fail question Bob, I know of semiconductors that were damaged from too much current, and it was heat that killed them. In fact, I know of semiconductors that were damaged by too much heat, only to fail later. Inadequately cooled for the task at hand? Isn't this the same story here? You crank and crank and crank, and the alternator temperature goes up and damages the rectifier circuit. Alternators are inherently current limited. Unlike generators, the alternator's magnetics keeps it from delivering more than 10-20% over nameplate at any load. Alternators are rated for worst case (hot) conditions. As discussed some years ago, the 60A breaker on tens of thousands of Cessna alternator b-leads is DESIGNED to nuisance trip. A cold 60A alternator will put out 70A or more until it warms up. Turn a 60A alternator into a discharged battery on a cold morning an your risk of popping the 60A b-lead breaker is higher . . . but you can't get much more than 70A which falls off as the alternator warms up. If the system integrators INTEND that an as-installed alternator be capable of full rated output at max operating temperature, then those same integrators will also have provided cooling . . . to make sure that perfectly ordinary temperature rise does not prevent the alternator from working as advertised. As an outside power source provider for someone who can't start their engine, I would be concerned about damage to any part of my electrical system. You never know what the other person is going to do, so I would start with just a battery only. If that didn't work, I would try what you said earlier: run the engine and alternator to charge up both batteries for a few minutes, then turn off the engine and let the other person try to start his engine. If that didn't work, I would consider allowing the other person to start his car with my engine running, but she would have to be really good looking! :) Last thing I need is a dead car because of someone else's problem. Okay, let's reverse engineer the feared failure. Exactly what components are vulnerable and what sources and magnitude of abuse puts them at risk? Finally how does that source come into existence because we've jumpered two systems together? My point is that we WORRY based on lots of hangar tales and things we don't understand. As I have suggested over a long history of reading, analyzing and harvesting good data from the classic 'dark-n- stormy-night stories, most cause-and-effect analysis by the authors is flawed. If you gave me an airplane (or automobile) and challenged me to 'make it vulnerable' to a battery jumping procedure, I wouldn't know where to start . . . I'm aware of no such components. Bob . . .


    Message 18


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    Time: 12:45:49 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: #2 Welding Cable
    From: Bill Allen <billallensworld@gmail.com>
    I found that #2 wire is also very heavy, and used the "fatwire" from perehelion designs; see http://www.periheliondesign.com/fatwires.htm Bill Allen Cozy4 EGBJ UK On 23 June 2013 13:50, Mark Banus <mbanus@hotmail.com> wrote: > ** ** > > Bob,**** > > ** ** > > Do to W&B considerations I am moving my 2 Panasonic 1220 batteries 8' aft. > I had originally used #4 as the runs were all short, 18" or less(all > forward of the firewall). The batteries were initially mounted on the > forward firewall.**** > > ** ** > > As the cable runs are now 9' I intend to use #2 welding cable. Yesterday > another builder stopped by to "review many progress" and said welding cable > might not be a good choice aft of the firewall as welding cable gives of > poisonous fumes if it burns.**** > > ** ** > > Comments?**** > > ** ** > > Mark Banus**** > > Glasair SIIS FT **** > > N600**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > * > > * > >


    Message 19


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    Time: 01:01:47 PM PST US
    From: <rd2@dejazzd.com>
    Subject: Re: Any thing you can think of to use this product
    for? Leading edge anti-ice coating? Rumen ---- rparigoris <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote: ============ Hi Group Any thing you can think of to use this product for, not including coating the spouses bath towel and per-coating your buddies composite bird just before paint: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZrjXSsfxMQ&feature=player_embedded Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403217#403217


    Message 20


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    Time: 01:08:11 PM PST US
    From: Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Battery fail question
    Good points, Bob.- You've done the homework to determine that there are n o extreme currents causing thermal problems in vehicle and aircraft alterna tors.- I'll accept that!=0A=0A-=0AHenador Titzoff=0A=0A=0A_____________ ___________________=0A From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroel ectric.com>=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 3:15 PM=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery fail question=0A uckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>=0A=0AFrom: Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff@y ahoo.com>=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery fail question=0ATo: "ae roelectric-list@matronics.com" <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>=0A=0A=0ABo b,=0A=0AI know of semiconductors that were damaged from too much current, a nd =0Ait was heat that killed them.- In fact, I know of semiconductors th at =0Awere damaged by too much heat, only to fail later.=0A=0A- - - I nadequately cooled for the task=0A- - - at hand?=0A=0AIsn't this the same story here?- You crank and crank and crank, and =0Athe alternator te mperature goes up and damages the rectifier circuit.=0A=0A=0A- - - Al ternators are inherently current limited.=0A- - - Unlike generators, the alternator's magnetics=0A- - - keeps it from delivering more than 10-20% over=0A- - - nameplate at any load. Alternators are rated=0A - - - for worst case (hot) conditions. As discussed=0A- - - som e years ago, the 60A breaker on tens of thousands=0A- - - of Cessna a lternator b-leads is DESIGNED to nuisance=0A- - - trip.- A cold 60A alternator will put out 70A or=0A- - - more until it warms up.=0A=0A - - - Turn a 60A alternator into a discharged battery=0A- - - o n a cold morning an your risk of popping the 60A=0A- - - b-lead break er is higher . . . but you can't=0A- - - get much more than 70A which falls off as the=0A- - - alternator warms up.=0A=0A- - - If th e system integrators INTEND that an as-installed=0A- - - alternator b e capable of full rated output at max=0A- - - operating temperature, then those same integrators=0A- - - will also have provided cooling . . . to make sure=0A- - - that perfectly ordinary temperature rise do es not=0A- - - prevent the alternator from working as advertised.=0A =0A- As an outside power source provider for someone who can't start =0A their engine, I would be concerned about damage to any part of my =0Aelectr ical system.- You never know what the other person is going to =0Ado, so I would start with just a battery only.- If that didn't work, =0AI would try what you said earlier: run the engine and alternator to =0Acharge up bo th batteries for a few minutes, then turn off the engine =0Aand let the oth er person try to start his engine.- If that didn't =0Awork, I would consi der allowing the other person to start his car =0Awith my engine running, b ut she would have to be really good looking! :)=0A=0ALast thing I need is a dead car because of someone else's problem.=0A=0A- - - Okay, let's r everse engineer the feared failure.=0A- - - Exactly what components a re vulnerable and what=0A- - - sources and magnitude of abuse puts th em at risk?=0A- - - Finally how does that source come into existence =0A- - - because we've jumpered two systems together?=0A=0A- - - My point is that we WORRY based on lots of hangar=0A- - - tales a nd things we don't understand. As I have=0A- - - suggested over a lon g history of reading, analyzing=0A- - - and harvesting good data from the classic 'dark-n-=0A- - - stormy-night stories, most cause-and-ef fect analysis=0A- - - by the authors is flawed.=0A=0A- - - If y ou gave me an airplane (or automobile) and=0A- - - challenged me to ' make it vulnerable' to a=0A- - - battery jumping procedure, I wouldn' t know where=0A- - - to start . . . I'm aware of no such components. - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ====


    Message 21


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    Time: 01:14:48 PM PST US
    From: Ralph Finch <ralphmariafinch@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Any thing you can think of to use this product
    for? It's available at Home Depot <http://www.homedepot.com/p/Rust-Oleum-Stops-Rust-18-oz-NeverWet-Multi-Purpose-Spray-Kit-274232/204216476> BTW. However, this version dries cloudy/translucent, so not suitable for canopies :(, and dries a little fuzzy or rough apparently so not good for leading edges either. Still, this is only the beginning. Perhaps in a few years similar products better suited for our aircraft will be available. On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 1:01 PM, <rd2@dejazzd.com> wrote: > > Leading edge anti-ice coating? > Rumen > > ---- rparigoris <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote: > > ============ > rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us> > > Hi Group > > Any thing you can think of to use this product for, not including coating > the spouses bath towel and per-coating your buddies composite bird just > before paint: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZrjXSsfxMQ&feature=player_embedded > > Ron Parigoris > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403217#403217 > >


    Message 22


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    Time: 02:14:02 PM PST US
    From: fedico94@mchsi.com
    Subject: Re: Any thing you can think of to use this product
    for? similar material tried by local engineer. Coated inside of his 2 stage snow blower chute and no ice stuck to it ----- Original Message ----- From: Ralph Finch <ralphmariafinch@gmail.com> Sent: Sun, 23 Jun 2013 15:13:47 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Any thing you can think of to use this product for? It's available at Home Depot <http://www.homedepot.com/p/Rust-Oleum-Stops-Rust-18-oz-NeverWet-Multi-Purpose-Spray-Kit-274232/204216476> BTW. However, this version dries cloudy/translucent, so not suitable for canopies :(, and dries a little fuzzy or rough apparently so not good for leading edges either. Still, this is only the beginning. Perhaps in a few years similar products better suited for our aircraft will be available. On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 1:01 PM, <rd2@dejazzd.com> wrote: > > Leading edge anti-ice coating? > Rumen > > ---- rparigoris <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote: > > ============ > rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us> > > Hi Group > > Any thing you can think of to use this product for, not including coating > the spouses bath towel and per-coating your buddies composite bird just > before paint: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZrjXSsfxMQ&feature=player_embedded > > Ron Parigoris > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403217#403217 > >


    Message 23


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    Time: 03:57:24 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Battery fail question
    From: "racerjerry" <gki@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
    Minor corrosion at a battery terminal can cause the identical symptoms. In a car, one of the first troubleshooting steps is to turn on the headlights. Often they will light up, but turning the key to start makes the headlights go out and stay out even after the key is released; they will not light up again until you jiggle a cable. In this case, suspect corrosion and/or a very weak battery connection. When commercial jumpers are clamped over the battery terminals, they provide a boost, but the long length of the smaller cables often are not enough to crank a high compression engine by themselves when the cars battery is completely dead or electrically disconnected. If the cars battery is very weak but connections are OK, sometimes just sitting for ten minutes with the jumpers connected will transfer enough juice from the donor battery to get you going. And yes, things work a lot better/faster with the donor cars engine running. -------- Jerry King Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403244#403244


    Message 24


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    Time: 08:12:06 PM PST US
    From: "Tim Yoder" <ftyoder@yoderbuilt.com>
    Subject: Any thing you can think of to use this product
    for? anti icing.... _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rayj Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 12:10 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Any thing you can think of to use this product for? Just a few quick thoughts: Tent fly; Sail boat sails; Kitchen and bath surfaces; To keep windows clear of rain or fogging(like rain-x); Might decrease drag on boat hulls; possible corrosion protection on electronics, etc. How does it affect porosity? How durable is it? Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 06/23/2013 01:27 PM, rparigoris wrote: <mailto:rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us> <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us> Hi Group Any thing you can think of to use this product for, not including coating the spouses bath towel and per-coating your buddies composite bird just before paint: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZrjXSsfxMQ <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZrjXSsfxMQ&feature=player_embedded> &feature=player_embedded Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403217#403217


    Message 25


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    Time: 09:24:53 PM PST US
    From: robert wiebe <ramjetwiebe@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: #2 Welding Cable
    Please, can I say something?=0A=0AMy first comment may be, "What doesn't pr oduce noxious fumes when it burns?"-=0A=0AWell, a goodly amount of weldin g cable, it seems. It just doesn't burn.-=0A=0ASome does.-One insulatio n for welding wire is treated neoprene rubber. I remember some time ago (wh en I was a chemical rep) there was a big discussion on the use of ETU (Ethy lene Thiouria sp?) as it was used in the vulcanization process. (There may be other methods in use now.) And neoprene rubber burns.-=0A=0AEPDM does not.=0A=0ABTW, both come in red and I can't tell you why so few use this co lour on their + battery runs.-=0A=0A=0AWhat is not supposed to burn is EP DM. -Ethylene propylene diene monomer is, I think, the most common store bought welding cable insulation. The price for a brand name is roughly the same as for neoprene. However, I (that would be me but you have your own ch oices to make) would not use EPDM in this application as it has-significa ntly lower resistance to grease and oil than neoprene. Apart from that, EPD M and neoprene are pretty much equal in strength, abrasion resistance and s o on so FFW I would have no temptation to use EPDM --except that EPDM is not supposed to be flammable.-Much of the surplus welding cable I have en countered seems to be neoprene, but I wouldn't count on it. (They both come in different colours and finishes.) So, with EPDM, no poisonous fumes. It doesn't burn. Put that in your pipe and try and smoke it!-=0A=0AThe neopr ene cable I am most familiar with is the Carol Brand made stuff (now Genera l Cable.) General Cable makes even more rugged wire, but I have never seen it in use - only on sample boards. In the spec sheets, GC calls US made Car olprene flame resistant. The big welding stores sell this stuff by the ligh t year.=0A=0AI do know that Carolprene finds its way inside mines, factorie s, etc. where there are going to be major concerns in the case of fire. I h ave been around this or similar products most of my life and have never see n it burn. Granted, I have never intentionally taken a torch to the stuff b ut I can tell you it exists in seriously harsh environments. (It pulls back if you solder it with a torch so I learned to make good crimps. That's one expensive(!) crimper [so borrow] but I was always able to find good termin als surplus. DKW.)=0A=0ANext time I see a wire rep, I'll ask if he can give me the burn temperature for the insulation. A brief hunt-http://msds.dup ont.com/msds/pdfs/EN/PEN_09004a35803d9eb8.pdf-reveals that plain ol' neop rene "burns" (flashpoint, open cup) at above F500 (C260) degrees. For refer ence, wood burns at about C300 degrees.-The fumes from neoprene ARE toxic and noxious. They can cause permanent lung damage.=0A=0AEven though EPDM i s NOT flammable it's maximum listed service temp is C150 degrees.-So if y ou want, run as much as you like inside your aircraft and dare your buddies to burn it.-Under the hood, EPDM does find it's way into ignition wires, but to my mind this is an item you replace every annual. If you build nose heavy and put your battery(s) in the tail, then this might be just the pla ce to run EPDM!-=0A=0AMore importantly, I think, than insulation is wire strand size. I have seen a LOT of very heavy strand stuff called welding ca ble even though it would never be tolerated. Acceptable stranding should be no larger than 0.010. All the good stuff is.=0A=0AIn addition to Bob's com ments about fusing: I guess you could always put in a fusible link if you R EALLY felt the need. This just seems like an additional and unnecessary fai lure point (more connections) to me. I wouldn't do it. ( Aside: As a teen, I had a '74 Mazda Rotary with a failed fuse link that took me days to find. They also ran all the current through the ammeter; something I learned not to do thanks to that experience.)-=0A=0AIn the one aircraft I have built and the two projects I am working on, I installed a cable or rod operated mechanical battery switch and no solenoid. (A switch needs no current to st ay on.)-Either way, I don't know if I would remember to turn off an ignit ion switch or flip a battery switch (and turn off the fuel and turn off the fuel pump and so on) if I was in a hurry to get out of the way. Maybe that requires practice on my part. I remember reading a tale of a WW2 pilot who bailed out and felt cheated at just that moment as in all his training the y never even gave him a minutes instruction - let alone practice - on how t o deplane ("Not now, Tatoo. I'm busy admiring the Corinthian Leather seats in my Volare."*) when he wasn't on the ground.=0A=0AAll this conversation a bout safety... How many of us wear a parachute?=0A=0A*"De plane, Boss! De p lane!" If this makes no sense to you, I feel very old.=0A=0A=0ANeoprene doe s not appear to be a trademark, hence I -avoided capitalization as it is a -generic term.-=0A=0A=0A-Robert=0A-=0A=0A=0A_______________________ _________=0A From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com >=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 6:55 :03 AM=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: #2 Welding Cable=0A =0A=0A=0ABob, =0A=0ADo to W&B considerations I am moving my 2 Panasonic 1220 batteries 8' =0Aaft. I had originally used #4 as the runs were all short, 18" or=0Aless( all forward of the firewall). The batteries were initially mounted=0Aon the forward firewall.=0A=0AAs the cable runs are now 9' I intend to use #2 wel ding cable. Yesterday=0Aanother builder stopped by to "review many progress " and said=0Awelding cable might not be a good choice aft of the firewall a s welding=0Acable gives of poisonous fumes if it burns.=0A=0AComments?=0A =0A-- When ANY insulation burns, the products of=0A-- combustion ar e exceedingly unfriendly=0A-- to children and other living things.=0A =0A-- There are folks who make it their life's=0A-- work to 'reduce risk' . . . even to the point=0A-- of codifying their profundities and threatening=0A-- you with retribution for regulatory=0A-- transgre ssion.=0A=0A-- In THIS case: What conditions would cause the=0A-- i nsulation on these cables to burn? Electrical=0A-- overload is one . . . externally applied fire=0A-- is the other.=0A=0A-- The risks for electrically induced overload are=0A-- so tiny that certified iron of a ll sizes does=0A-- not add overload protection to these wires.=0A-- =0A-- In FAR23.1357 we find these words:=0A=0ASec. 23.1357-- Circu it protective devices.=0A=0A(a) Protective devices, such as fuses or circui t breakers, must=0Abe=0Ainstalled in all electrical circuits other than-- =0A(1) Main circuits of starter motors used during starting only; and=0A(2) Circuits in which no hazard is presented by their omission.=0A=0A--- If you've got active fire in the aircraft=0A--- that threatens to ig nite your wire's insulation,=0A--- then I suggest your risk issues go far beyond=0A--- any concerns for the quality of the smoke.=0A=0A- -- Bottom line is that while those-who-know-more-=0A--- about-air planes-than-we-do will prohibit certain=0A--- insulations in new desi gn, they still permit=0A--- an older airplane to be repaired with the SAME=0A--- insulations that were on the original type=0A--- ce rtificate.=0A=0A--- For example, a 1946 C-140 wired with cotton over =0A--- rubber wire or a 1968 C-172 wired with nylon over=0A--- PVC can be repaired with the same wire. If the=0A--- admonitions for controlling cockpit pollution=0A--- were imperatives, then one would think that any=0A--- airplane brought in for repairs should be=0A- -- completely re-wired.=0A=0A--- The short answer is that risks t o your future=0A--- well being due to poor selection of insulation=0A --- are vanishingly small compared to risks=0A--- for bird stri ke, wind shear . . . or running=0A--- out of fuel.=0A=0A=0A- Bob . ==================




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