Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:13 AM - Re: Re: Master Switch/Contactor and Starter Questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 06:20 AM - Re: Re: Master Switch/Contactor and Starter Questions (Bob McCallum)
3. 06:31 AM - Re: Low voltage indicator with dual alternators (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 09:04 AM - Trouble transmitting... (Tom Chapman)
5. 09:04 AM - PLEASE! A Reminder... (jonlaury)
6. 09:25 AM - Re: Trouble transmitting... (Dave Saylor)
7. 09:26 AM - Re: PLEASE! A Reminder... (Richard Girard)
8. 09:51 AM - Re: Trouble transmitting... (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 10:25 AM - Quads - Remarkable UAVs (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us)
10. 01:30 PM - Looking for (off topic) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 01:37 PM - Looking for (off topic) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 01:52 PM - Re: Looking for (off topic) (Bob McCallum)
13. 01:56 PM - Re: Looking for (off topic) (Bob McCallum)
14. 02:06 PM - Re: Looking for (off topic) (Bob McCallum)
15. 02:26 PM - Re: Looking for (off topic) (Bill Putney)
16. 04:04 PM - Re: Looking for (off topic) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
17. 04:15 PM - Re: Looking for (off topic) (Jeff Luckey)
18. 04:35 PM - Re: Looking for (off topic) (rayj)
19. 04:50 PM - Re: Looking for (off topic) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
20. 05:11 PM - starter solenoid (CardinalNSB@aol.com)
21. 08:42 PM - Re: starter solenoid (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
22. 08:42 PM - Re: Re: Master Switch/Contactor and Starter Questions (Ed)
23. 08:44 PM - Re: Re: Master Switch/Contactor and Starter Questions (Ed)
24. 09:38 PM - Re: Re: Master Switch/Contactor and Starter Questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Master Switch/Contactor and Starter Questions |
At 11:54 PM 7/5/2013, you wrote:
>
>I knew on some level that low ohms means high current. That's why I
>questioned it, but I didn't do the math. 35 amps is a bunch! I'm not
>planning to throw away my starter contactor anytime soon. I did
>measure the coil both directions and it is the same.
Which starter contactor are we talking about?
One built onto a starter or an external contactor?
When you mentioned 0.3 ohms, the first image in
my head was for a contactor built onto a starter.
These DO present a very low terminal resistance in the
de-energized mode. There's mechanism inside that
demands a ~30A closure current and a more moderate,
~10A holding current. . .
Run of the mill external contactors
http://tinyurl.com/kqphmh
. . . have no such shift in demand and will require
~5A to close and hold the contacts. Further, the models
sold previously by us and now by B&C have built
in coil suppression diodes.
Be wary of low resistance measurements with the
garden variety multimeter. They're not designed
to 'wash out' the effects of lead length and their
excitation current to a device under test is
too low to offer useful resolution of low resistance
measurements.
This limitation is what prompted the design of a
4-wire low resistance measurements adapter. This
was published in a Beech shop notes bulletin some
years back. We had a rash of unnecessary replacement
of landing gear down-lock indicator switches on
fielded aircraft. This was traced to the quality
of contact resistance measurements using the
garden variety multi-meter. The task demanded
instrumentation better suited to the task.
http://tinyurl.com/4l3tuj6
A few years later I crafted this product based
on the earlier article . . .
http://tinyurl.com/6g9e7vm
The value of this technique for low resistance
measurement is described in the Grounding
chapter of the 'Connection. The same technique
is useful for getting meaningful data on coil
and contact resistance of the more robust components
in the ship's electrical system.
Bob . . .
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Master Switch/Contactor and Starter Questions |
> I knew on some level that low ohms means high current. That's why I
> questioned it, but I didn't do the math. 35 amps is a bunch! I'm not
> planning to throw away my starter contactor anytime soon. I did measure
> the coil both directions and it is the same.
>
> Ed Holyoke
And that's why you don't re-invent the wheel, but rather follow the
conventional wisdom of using a "standard" starter contactor ahead of the
solenoid built into the starter OR use a buffer relay to energize the
solenoid just as all modern cars do and as Bob has explained in a previous
post. (your starter won't operate without the built in solenoid as that is
what engages the pinion with the ring gear)
Bob McC
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Low voltage indicator with dual alternators |
>I have the same setup and that's how it works. That is, the low
>voltage light simply monitors the voltage on the buss independent of
>alternator operation. Given that, I've wondered how a failed
>alternator would manifest itself.
What architecture are we talking about? Z-12 or Z-14?
With independent busses for each alternator, the two
systems are normally operated with the cross-feed OPEN.
Each LV montior will tell the condition of it's respective
bus.
With Z-12 where the aux alternator is paired with a
Standby Regulator, the aux alternator is operated
with the switch ON but with the lower set-point for
the SB regulator voltage, the aux alternator normally
'runs' in a relaxed state.
If the main alternator is shut down for any reason,
bus voltage sags and the SB regulator wakes up the aux
alternator. If system loads are equal to or less than
aux alternator capability, then the lv light will not
come on but the AUX ALT LOADED indicator light will
come on. If system loads are too great for the aux
alternator, the AUX ALT LOADED light flashes to prompt
reduction in load.
If Z-12 with LR3C regulators, you would normally run
with the aux alternator OFF and turn it on only when
prompted by a LV warning . . . from either regulator
having a warning light installed.
>- If failure was due to an overvoltage situation, the breaker would
>pop. Since I normally fly with the 2 busses interconnected
Not recommended.
> I would expect the low voltage lights to remain off perhaps for
> the remainder of the flight. If one did come on because buss
> voltage dropped below the threshold, I would expect both to come on
> more or less simultaneously as long as the busses were
> interconnected. The only explicit indication of Alt failure would
> be the popped OV breaker.
The design goals for Z-14 were two-fold. (1)
being able to parallel batteries for engine
cranking and (2) being able to share power between
systems in the event of an alternator failure.
As you have deduced, running them in parallel
during normal operations has the potential for
obscuring failure of one of the alternators.
>- Are there other modes of Alternator failure where there would be
>no explicit indication of failure? I'm thinking that a snapped belt
>would be an example. If loads and battery condition were such that
>the interconnected buss voltage stayed above the low volt threshold,
>there would be no explicit indication. Is that right?
Yes. Another reason for running them independently
of each other for normal flight ops. With the crossfeed
closed, you have a Z-12 with dual batteries. Unless
one alternator is configured for stand-by operation by
incorporation of the appropriate regulator, then you
have two alternators in a paralleled mode of operation
controlled by regulators not designed for paralleling
(current management) of the two alternators.
If you want to do this, then set the aux alternator
regulator down by about 1 volt so that it stays 'relaxed'
for normal ops.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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Subject: | Trouble transmitting... |
I have an RV4 with an Icom A200 radio installed. The antenna is a bent whip installed
on the bottom of the fuselage between the gear legs. The plane has been
flying for 6+ years with this setup, and working fine.
The only problem I've ever had with ATC hearing my calls is on the ground, when
(I assume) a gear leg is blocking transmission. I can turn the plane slightly
and they hear me fine. In the air, I've never had a problem with reception or
transmission, even at fairly long distances.
Yesterday I flew a cross country and called for flight following soon after my
departure from my uncontrolled airport. They heard me fine, and gave me a squawk
code. They acknowledged my position, and no further comm with me until he was
ready to hand me off. I was hearing all his other exchanges with other planes.
He called to hand off, and I acknowledged. (Transmit light on the A200 came
on). Before I could switch, he called back with the same transmission. He hadn't
heard my reply. I tried several times to respond and no luck.
I switched freq's and I couldn't raise the next controller either. I waited 10
min or so and finally got him. I'm assuming my transmissions were weak, and only
got thru when I was close to their antenna. I just cancelled with him, and
continued on.
...reception is perfect
...transmit light on A200 illuminating
...my radio is being heard by ATC intermittently
Where should I start troubleshooting?
Thanks!
Tom
Message 5
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Subject: | PLEASE! A Reminder... |
In the interest of clarity in the daily digest, and unclogging the archives, PLEASE
REVIEW Matt Dralle's Useage Guidelines.
To wit:
"- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated! "
Cheers,
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404061#404061
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Trouble transmitting... |
Easiest thing first: I've seen what you're describing when the power wire
broke *almost* completely--only one or two strands remained. I assume the
radio couldn't draw enough power to put out a decent transmission, as it
takes much more power to transmit than to do any of the other things it
normally does. Same would go for the ground as well, and either one might
only show intermittently.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: PLEASE! A Reminder... |
Jon, I was about to make this same post. I would only add; Remember when
you are sending a message of thanks, congratulations or other post with no
real relevance to the subject, put the phrase "do not archive" on the line
below your signature so that fluff will not clutter up the archives.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 11:04 AM, jonlaury <jonlaury@impulse.net> wrote:
>
> In the interest of clarity in the daily digest, and unclogging the
> archives, PLEASE REVIEW Matt Dralle's Useage Guidelines.
> To wit:
>
> "- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
> your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
> easy to find threads in the archive.
>
> - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
> response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
> reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
> quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
> can not be overstated! "
>
> Cheers,
> John
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404061#404061
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Trouble transmitting... |
At 11:03 AM 7/6/2013, you wrote:
I have an RV4 with an Icom A200 radio installed. The antenna is a
bent whip installed on the bottom of the fuselage between the gear
legs. The plane has been flying for 6+ years with this setup, and working fine.
The only problem I've ever had with ATC hearing my calls is on the
ground, when (I assume) a gear leg is blocking transmission. I can
turn the plane slightly and they hear me fine. In the air, I've never
had a problem with reception or transmission, even at fairly long distances.
Yesterday I flew a cross country and called for flight following soon
after my departure from my uncontrolled airport. They heard me fine,
and gave me a squawk code. They acknowledged my position, and no
further comm with me until he was ready to hand me off. I was hearing
all his other exchanges with other planes. He called to hand off, and
I acknowledged. (Transmit light on the A200 came on). Before I could
switch, he called back with the same transmission. He hadn't heard my
reply. I tried several times to respond and no luck.
I switched freq's and I couldn't raise the next controller either. I
waited 10 min or so and finally got him. I'm assuming my
transmissions were weak, and only got thru when I was close to their
antenna. I just cancelled with him, and continued on.
...reception is perfect
...transmit light on A200 illuminating
...my radio is being heard by ATC intermittently
Where should I start troubleshooting?
Given the long history of un-eventful and
satisfactory performance, the first rocks
to peek under are things most likely to
have CHANGED.
The first thing I would do is get an SWR/PWR
meter and check both transmitter power output
-AND- antenna SWR. Two things that might have
changed is condition of the transmitter's power
output stages or condition of the antenna
and its feed line.
Here's a good example of a tool for this task.
http://tinyurl.com/k4t2pn9
We reviewed this product here on the List a
couple of years ago. It's a great performer
at a very reasonable price. Every EAA chapter
ought to have one to lend to members. Problems
like these yield only to quantifiable measurement.
If you acquire one of these, you will want to
acquire N-male to F-BNC adapters.
http://tinyurl.com/ksmdxch
and a short piece of good coax (about 2' long)
with a BNC-Male on each end.
http://tinyurl.com/cgr42l5 (scroll down to RB-142 Cable Assemblies)
Lord Kelvin expressed it thusly:
"When you can measure what you are speaking about,
and express it in numbers, you know something about it,
when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge
is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind; it may be the
beginning of knowledge, but you have scarcely, in
your thoughts advanced to the stage of science."
Bob . . .
Message 9
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Subject: | Quads - Remarkable UAVs |
Hi Group
A little off topic, but very interesting TED presentation I want to
share:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2itwFJCgFQ&feature=youtu.be
Ron Parigoris
Message 10
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Subject: | Looking for (off topic) |
I'd like to tap the collective experience of
the list in search of a gizmo that I don't even
know what to call it . . .
I've seen cousins to the 'Chinese finger trap' that
could be slipped over a hose or large wire bundle.
One end of the 'trap' is fitted with a loop of small
cable . . . the same cable that makes up the
cylinder of the device.
When placed over the hose/bundle and tensioned,
it grabs the outside surface over a large area
(essential damage free, low pressure) while
getting a grip on it. The work piece may then
be secured to some suspension point.
I've seen them used to hold up drop cords suspended
from the ceiling. I've 'wandered' through the
Grainger and McMaster catalogs. I'd bet they have
'em if I just knew the name of the beasts!
Any ideas?
Bob . . .
Message 11
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Subject: | Looking for (off topic) |
I'd bet they have
'em if I just knew the name of the beasts!
Any ideas?
Duhhh . . . how about 'pulling grips'?
It's amazing how simple gaps in language
can cause one to waste so much time!
Bob . . .
Message 12
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Subject: | Looking for (off topic) |
Bob;
They're called "Kellums grips". Actually that is one brand name, but should
provide sources for you. They are made by Hubbell.
Bob McC
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2013 4:30 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Looking for (off topic)
>
> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
> I'd like to tap the collective experience of
> the list in search of a gizmo that I don't even
> know what to call it . . .
>
> I've seen cousins to the 'Chinese finger trap' that
> could be slipped over a hose or large wire bundle.
> One end of the 'trap' is fitted with a loop of small
> cable . . . the same cable that makes up the
> cylinder of the device.
>
> When placed over the hose/bundle and tensioned,
> it grabs the outside surface over a large area
> (essential damage free, low pressure) while
> getting a grip on it. The work piece may then
> be secured to some suspension point.
>
> I've seen them used to hold up drop cords suspended
> from the ceiling. I've 'wandered' through the
> Grainger and McMaster catalogs. I'd bet they have
> 'em if I just knew the name of the beasts!
>
> Any ideas?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> _-
> ====================================================
> ======
> _-
> ====================================================
> ======
> _-
> ====================================================
> ======
> _-
> ====================================================
> ======
>
>
Message 13
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Subject: | Looking for (off topic) |
Sorry, spelling error "Kellems" not "Kellums"
Bob McC
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob McCallum [mailto:robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca]
> Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2013 4:52 PM
> To: 'aeroelectric-list@matronics.com'
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Looking for (off topic)
>
> Bob;
>
> They're called "Kellums grips". Actually that is one brand name, but
should provide
> sources for you. They are made by Hubbell.
>
> Bob McC
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-
> list-
> > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> > Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2013 4:30 PM
> > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Looking for (off topic)
> >
> > <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
> >
> > I'd like to tap the collective experience of
> > the list in search of a gizmo that I don't even
> > know what to call it . . .
> >
> > I've seen cousins to the 'Chinese finger trap' that
> > could be slipped over a hose or large wire bundle.
> > One end of the 'trap' is fitted with a loop of small
> > cable . . . the same cable that makes up the
> > cylinder of the device.
> >
> > When placed over the hose/bundle and tensioned,
> > it grabs the outside surface over a large area
> > (essential damage free, low pressure) while
> > getting a grip on it. The work piece may then
> > be secured to some suspension point.
> >
> > I've seen them used to hold up drop cords suspended
> > from the ceiling. I've 'wandered' through the
> > Grainger and McMaster catalogs. I'd bet they have
> > 'em if I just knew the name of the beasts!
> >
> > Any ideas?
> >
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
> >
> > _-
> >
> ====================================================
> > ======
> > _-
> >
> ====================================================
> > ======
> > _-
> >
> ====================================================
> > ======
> > _-
> >
> ====================================================
> > ======
> >
> >
Message 14
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Subject: | Looking for (off topic) |
Try this catalogue
http://tinyurl.com/khffnbb
Bob McC
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2013 4:38 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Looking for (off topic)
>
> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
> I'd bet they have
> 'em if I just knew the name of the beasts!
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Duhhh . . . how about 'pulling grips'?
> It's amazing how simple gaps in language
> can cause one to waste so much time!
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> _-
> ====================================================
> ======
> _-
> ====================================================
> ======
> _-
> ====================================================
> ======
> _-
> ====================================================
> ======
>
>
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: Looking for (off topic) |
They're called "grips". They are also used to hoist coaxial cables up
towers. You can find them in broadcast and two way radio vendors lists.
Bill
On 7/6/13 1:29 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
> I'd like to tap the collective experience of
> the list in search of a gizmo that I don't even
> know what to call it . . .
>
> I've seen cousins to the 'Chinese finger trap' that
> could be slipped over a hose or large wire bundle.
> One end of the 'trap' is fitted with a loop of small
> cable . . . the same cable that makes up the
> cylinder of the device.
>
> When placed over the hose/bundle and tensioned,
> it grabs the outside surface over a large area
> (essential damage free, low pressure) while
> getting a grip on it. The work piece may then
> be secured to some suspension point.
>
> I've seen them used to hold up drop cords suspended
> from the ceiling. I've 'wandered' through the
> Grainger and McMaster catalogs. I'd bet they have
> 'em if I just knew the name of the beasts!
>
> Any ideas?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 16
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Subject: | Re: Looking for (off topic) |
At 04:25 PM 7/6/2013, you wrote:
>
>They're called "grips". They are also used to hoist coaxial cables
>up towers. You can find them in broadcast and two way radio vendors lists.
>
>Bill
Yeah, I've used them many times back in my tower
climbing days. Just had a hard block on the right
term.
I want to use some to tether garden hoses to
a stake next to the hydrant. Our hose bibs
have timers on them . . . made of plastic.
One good tug with the hose would break them.
These basket-woven grips seem like just the
ticket for grabbing the hose and maintaining
a bend relief between the stake and hose
bib. Thanks guys!
Bob . . .
Message 17
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Subject: | Re: Looking for (off topic) |
Bob,=0A=0AI think the name you are looking for is "kellum".- =0A=0AI used
to get them from Hubbell, see:=0Ahttp://ecatalog.hubbell-wiring.com/Produc
tInformation/ViewCatalog.aspx?Dest=hubbell-wiring.com/press/catalog/t.pdf
&Page=59=0A=0Ahere is another reference from google:=0Ahttp://www.plccent
er.com/Shop/KELLEMS/074093514/FNFP?source=GoogleShopping&gclid=COGg3aj_
m7gCFUQ6QgodSA4AGg=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A Fro
m: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>=0ATo: aeroelec
tric-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Saturday, July 6, 2013 1:29 PM=0ASubject:
AeroElectric-List: Looking for (off topic)=0A =0A=0A--> AeroElectric-List m
essage posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
=0A=0AI'd like to tap the collective experience of=0Athe list in search of
a gizmo that I don't even=0Aknow what to call it . . .=0A=0AI've seen cousi
ns to the 'Chinese finger trap' that=0Acould be slipped over a hose or larg
e wire bundle.=0AOne end of the 'trap' is fitted with a loop of small=0Acab
le . . . the same cable that makes up the=0Acylinder of the device.=0A=0AWh
en placed over the hose/bundle and tensioned,=0Ait grabs the outside surfac
e over a large area=0A(essential damage free, low pressure) while=0Agetting
a grip on it. The work piece may then=0Abe secured to some suspension poin
t.=0A=0AI've seen them used to hold up drop cords suspended=0Afrom the ceil
ing. I've 'wandered' through the=0AGrainger and McMaster catalogs. I'd bet
they have=0A'em if I just knew the name of the beasts!=0A=0AAny ideas?=0A
=
Message 18
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Subject: | Re: Looking for (off topic) |
Bob,
Mightsuggest a less expensive solution. Use some cotton lineand tie some
half hitches, or a taut line hitch or two, or a prussic knot or
twoaround the hose.Perhaps anchorthe initial bite with a cinch knot.
While they may need renewing every few years, the overall cost of
ownership I expect will be lower over your and your children's lifetimes.
do not archive
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
On 07/06/2013 06:04 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
> At 04:25 PM 7/6/2013, you wrote:
>>
>> They're called "grips". They are also used to hoist coaxial cables up
>> towers. You can find them in broadcast and two way radio vendors lists.
>>
>> Bill
>
> Yeah, I've used them many times back in my tower
> climbing days. Just had a hard block on the right
> term.
>
> I want to use some to tether garden hoses to
> a stake next to the hydrant. Our hose bibs
> have timers on them . . . made of plastic.
> One good tug with the hose would break them.
> These basket-woven grips seem like just the
> ticket for grabbing the hose and maintaining
> a bend relief between the stake and hose
> bib. Thanks guys!
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 19
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Subject: | Re: Looking for (off topic) |
At 06:35 PM 7/6/2013, you wrote:
>Bob,
>
>Might suggest a less expensive solution. Use some cotton line and
>tie some half hitches, or a taut line hitch or two, or a prussic
>knot or two around the hose. Perhaps anchor the initial bite with a
>cinch knot. While they may need renewing every few years, the
>overall cost of ownership I expect will be lower over your and your
>children's lifetimes.
Funny you should mention that. Off the shelf
versions are pretty pricey given that they
are made from 20-cents worth of wire rope.
Saw a youtube presentation on DIY finger
traps. I deduced that about 15 minutes and
four, 3-foot pieces of rope woven over the
appropriate dowel would produce a clone
of such devices. Thought about just using
synthetic cordage but I got a really good deal on
some 1/16" stainless cable off eBay. This
will make a good 'shop project' . . . not
perhaps for the children but certainly for
the grand kids.
Thanks!
Bob . . .
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Subject: | starter solenoid |
So, I understand that the solenoid needs to make its mechanical travel so
the teeth are engaged, before the high current is sent to the starter.
That is why the high current to the starter doesn't connect until the plunger
is extended. Thanks Skip
Message 21
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Subject: | Re: starter solenoid |
At 07:01 PM 7/6/2013, you wrote:
>So, I understand that the solenoid needs to make its mechanical
>travel so the teeth are engaged, before the high current is sent to
>the starter.
Yes . . . current available from the FAT wire . . .
> That is why the high current to the starter doesn't connect until
> the plunger is extended. Thanks Skip
The "high current" we have been discussing is that
which flows into the SMALL terminal on the solenoid/
contactor assembly. Current that normally comes though
the START switch on the panel.
This current starts out high . . . ~30A to effect rapid
and positive engagement of the pinion gear. Only when
the contacts close and energize the starter motor does
the contactor coil terminal current FALL to the LOWER
holding value on the order of 10A.
All this fussing over external contactors or boost relays
is for purpose of reducing abuse of the START switch.
Bob . . .
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Subject: | Re: Master Switch/Contactor and Starter Questions |
Howdy Bob,
When I said contactor, I meant the firewall variety, a B&C unit. That's
the one I'm not throwing away, ;-) I did not measure the coil
resistance on that one.
I replaced the starter solenoid because it was demanding 20 - 30
starter button pushes before it would crank. The starter contactor on
the firewall clunks reliably. The new solenoid coil measured .3 ohm. I
don't figure that to be very accurate, but it is repeatable. The VOM
leads measured about .5 and then .8 for the coil so I called it .3 ohm.
I was just a bit surprised that it was that low, even if I were off a
little. Now that I read your piece about contactors and soleniods, I
understand why the low resistance. My comment about keeping the
contactor was that I'd just as soon not do that to my starter switch.
By the way, the Borg Warner (BWD) part number for the starter solenoid I
just put on my PM SkyTec is: S5613
I got mine at O'Rielly's auto parts for ~$25. That's much better than
$200 flat rate repair at SkyTec + shipping and wait for it.
Speaking of diodes, is this overkill?
http://www.amazon.com/Amico-Molded-Plastic-Rectifier-Diodes/dp/B009IN1KB8/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1373088088&sr=8-6&keywords=diodes
I can get these, but the shipping is more than the diodes:
http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DKSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&itemSeq=133108363&uq=635086673453750862
Pax,
Ed
On 7/6/2013 6:12 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 11:54 PM 7/5/2013, you wrote:
>>
>> I knew on some level that low ohms means high current. That's why I
>> questioned it, but I didn't do the math. 35 amps is a bunch! I'm not
>> planning to throw away my starter contactor anytime soon. I did
>> measure the coil both directions and it is the same.
>
> Which starter contactor are we talking about?
> One *built onto a starter* or an *external* contactor?
>
> When you mentioned 0.3 ohms, the first image in
> my head was for a contactor built onto a starter.
> These DO present a very low terminal resistance in the
> de-energized mode. There's mechanism inside that
> demands a ~30A closure current and a more moderate,
> ~10A holding current. . .
>
> Run of the mill external contactors
>
> http://tinyurl.com/kqphmh
>
> <http://tinyurl.com/kqphmh> . . . have no such shift in demand and
> will require
> ~5A to close and hold the contacts. Further, the models
> sold previously by us and now by B&C have built
> in coil suppression diodes.
>
> Be wary of low resistance measurements with the
> garden variety multimeter. They're not designed
> to 'wash out' the effects of lead length and their
> excitation current to a device under test is
> too low to offer useful resolution of low resistance
> measurements.
>
> This limitation is what prompted the design of a
> 4-wire low resistance measurements adapter. This
> was published in a Beech shop notes bulletin some
> years back. We had a rash of unnecessary replacement
> of landing gear down-lock indicator switches on
> fielded aircraft. This was traced to the quality
> of contact resistance measurements using the
> garden variety multi-meter. The task demanded
> instrumentation better suited to the task.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/4l3tuj6
>
> <http://tinyurl.com/4l3tuj6> A few years later I crafted this product
> based
> on the earlier article . . .
>
> http://tinyurl.com/6g9e7vm <http://tinyurl.com/6g9e7vm>
>
> The value of this technique for low resistance
> measurement is described in the Grounding
> chapter of the 'Connection. The same technique
> is useful for getting meaningful data on coil
> and contact resistance of the more robust components
> in the ship's electrical system.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 23
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Subject: | Re: Master Switch/Contactor and Starter Questions |
I'm with you there, Bob.
Ed
On 7/6/2013 6:19 AM, Bob McCallum wrote:
>
>
>> I knew on some level that low ohms means high current. That's why I
>> questioned it, but I didn't do the math. 35 amps is a bunch! I'm not
>> planning to throw away my starter contactor anytime soon. I did measure
>> the coil both directions and it is the same.
>>
>> Ed Holyoke
> And that's why you don't re-invent the wheel, but rather follow the
> conventional wisdom of using a "standard" starter contactor ahead of the
> solenoid built into the starter OR use a buffer relay to energize the
> solenoid just as all modern cars do and as Bob has explained in a previous
> post. (your starter won't operate without the built in solenoid as that is
> what engages the pinion with the ring gear)
>
> Bob McC
>
>
Message 24
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Subject: | Re: Master Switch/Contactor and Starter Questions |
>
>
>Speaking of diodes, is this overkill?
><http://www.amazon.com/Amico-Molded-Plastic-Rectifier-Diodes/dp/B009IN1KB8/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1373088088&sr=8-6&keywords=diodes>http://www.amazon.com/Amico-Molded-Plastic-Rectifier-Diodes/dp/B009IN1KB8/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1373088088&sr=8-6&keywords=diodes
>
>I can get these, but the shipping is more than the diodes:
><http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DKSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&itemSeq=133108363&uq=635086673453750862>http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DKSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&itemSeq=133108363&uq=635086673453750862
I like the 1N5400 series devices which are stocked
by Radio Shack
http://tinyurl.com/pfwlz2v
and Jameco
http://tinyurl.com/qjefqzq
if you don't mind paying for 0.08 each in
packs of 30. They use first class parcel
for small orders . . . these would come to
your door for under $2.
The 1N5400 has reasonably robust leads and
package. Smaller diodes work too but these
are mechanically user friendly, easy to get
and the price is right.
Any P/N in the 1N540x series is okay from 0 to 9
Bob . . .
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