AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Sat 07/06/13


Total Messages Posted: 24



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 06:13 AM - Re: Re: Master Switch/Contactor and Starter Questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     2. 06:20 AM - Re: Re: Master Switch/Contactor and Starter Questions (Bob McCallum)
     3. 06:31 AM - Re: Low voltage indicator with dual alternators (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     4. 09:04 AM - Trouble transmitting... (Tom Chapman)
     5. 09:04 AM - PLEASE! A Reminder... (jonlaury)
     6. 09:25 AM - Re: Trouble transmitting... (Dave Saylor)
     7. 09:26 AM - Re: PLEASE! A Reminder... (Richard Girard)
     8. 09:51 AM - Re: Trouble transmitting... (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     9. 10:25 AM - Quads - Remarkable UAVs (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us)
    10. 01:30 PM - Looking for (off topic) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    11. 01:37 PM - Looking for (off topic) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    12. 01:52 PM - Re: Looking for (off topic) (Bob McCallum)
    13. 01:56 PM - Re: Looking for (off topic) (Bob McCallum)
    14. 02:06 PM - Re: Looking for (off topic) (Bob McCallum)
    15. 02:26 PM - Re: Looking for (off topic) (Bill Putney)
    16. 04:04 PM - Re: Looking for (off topic) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    17. 04:15 PM - Re: Looking for (off topic) (Jeff Luckey)
    18. 04:35 PM - Re: Looking for (off topic) (rayj)
    19. 04:50 PM - Re: Looking for (off topic) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    20. 05:11 PM - starter solenoid  (CardinalNSB@aol.com)
    21. 08:42 PM - Re: starter solenoid  (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    22. 08:42 PM - Re: Re: Master Switch/Contactor and Starter Questions (Ed)
    23. 08:44 PM - Re: Re: Master Switch/Contactor and Starter Questions (Ed)
    24. 09:38 PM - Re: Re: Master Switch/Contactor and Starter Questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 06:13:22 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Master Switch/Contactor and Starter Questions
    At 11:54 PM 7/5/2013, you wrote: > >I knew on some level that low ohms means high current. That's why I >questioned it, but I didn't do the math. 35 amps is a bunch! I'm not >planning to throw away my starter contactor anytime soon. I did >measure the coil both directions and it is the same. Which starter contactor are we talking about? One built onto a starter or an external contactor? When you mentioned 0.3 ohms, the first image in my head was for a contactor built onto a starter. These DO present a very low terminal resistance in the de-energized mode. There's mechanism inside that demands a ~30A closure current and a more moderate, ~10A holding current. . . Run of the mill external contactors http://tinyurl.com/kqphmh . . . have no such shift in demand and will require ~5A to close and hold the contacts. Further, the models sold previously by us and now by B&C have built in coil suppression diodes. Be wary of low resistance measurements with the garden variety multimeter. They're not designed to 'wash out' the effects of lead length and their excitation current to a device under test is too low to offer useful resolution of low resistance measurements. This limitation is what prompted the design of a 4-wire low resistance measurements adapter. This was published in a Beech shop notes bulletin some years back. We had a rash of unnecessary replacement of landing gear down-lock indicator switches on fielded aircraft. This was traced to the quality of contact resistance measurements using the garden variety multi-meter. The task demanded instrumentation better suited to the task. http://tinyurl.com/4l3tuj6 A few years later I crafted this product based on the earlier article . . . http://tinyurl.com/6g9e7vm The value of this technique for low resistance measurement is described in the Grounding chapter of the 'Connection. The same technique is useful for getting meaningful data on coil and contact resistance of the more robust components in the ship's electrical system. Bob . . .


    Message 2


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    Time: 06:20:11 AM PST US
    From: Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca>
    Subject: Re: Master Switch/Contactor and Starter Questions
    > I knew on some level that low ohms means high current. That's why I > questioned it, but I didn't do the math. 35 amps is a bunch! I'm not > planning to throw away my starter contactor anytime soon. I did measure > the coil both directions and it is the same. > > Ed Holyoke And that's why you don't re-invent the wheel, but rather follow the conventional wisdom of using a "standard" starter contactor ahead of the solenoid built into the starter OR use a buffer relay to energize the solenoid just as all modern cars do and as Bob has explained in a previous post. (your starter won't operate without the built in solenoid as that is what engages the pinion with the ring gear) Bob McC


    Message 3


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    Time: 06:31:29 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Low voltage indicator with dual alternators
    >I have the same setup and that's how it works. That is, the low >voltage light simply monitors the voltage on the buss independent of >alternator operation. Given that, I've wondered how a failed >alternator would manifest itself. What architecture are we talking about? Z-12 or Z-14? With independent busses for each alternator, the two systems are normally operated with the cross-feed OPEN. Each LV montior will tell the condition of it's respective bus. With Z-12 where the aux alternator is paired with a Standby Regulator, the aux alternator is operated with the switch ON but with the lower set-point for the SB regulator voltage, the aux alternator normally 'runs' in a relaxed state. If the main alternator is shut down for any reason, bus voltage sags and the SB regulator wakes up the aux alternator. If system loads are equal to or less than aux alternator capability, then the lv light will not come on but the AUX ALT LOADED indicator light will come on. If system loads are too great for the aux alternator, the AUX ALT LOADED light flashes to prompt reduction in load. If Z-12 with LR3C regulators, you would normally run with the aux alternator OFF and turn it on only when prompted by a LV warning . . . from either regulator having a warning light installed. >- If failure was due to an overvoltage situation, the breaker would >pop. Since I normally fly with the 2 busses interconnected Not recommended. > I would expect the low voltage lights to remain off perhaps for > the remainder of the flight. If one did come on because buss > voltage dropped below the threshold, I would expect both to come on > more or less simultaneously as long as the busses were > interconnected. The only explicit indication of Alt failure would > be the popped OV breaker. The design goals for Z-14 were two-fold. (1) being able to parallel batteries for engine cranking and (2) being able to share power between systems in the event of an alternator failure. As you have deduced, running them in parallel during normal operations has the potential for obscuring failure of one of the alternators. >- Are there other modes of Alternator failure where there would be >no explicit indication of failure? I'm thinking that a snapped belt >would be an example. If loads and battery condition were such that >the interconnected buss voltage stayed above the low volt threshold, >there would be no explicit indication. Is that right? Yes. Another reason for running them independently of each other for normal flight ops. With the crossfeed closed, you have a Z-12 with dual batteries. Unless one alternator is configured for stand-by operation by incorporation of the appropriate regulator, then you have two alternators in a paralleled mode of operation controlled by regulators not designed for paralleling (current management) of the two alternators. If you want to do this, then set the aux alternator regulator down by about 1 volt so that it stays 'relaxed' for normal ops. Bob . . .


    Message 4


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    Time: 09:04:05 AM PST US
    Subject: Trouble transmitting...
    From: Tom Chapman <tomrv4@me.com>
    I have an RV4 with an Icom A200 radio installed. The antenna is a bent whip installed on the bottom of the fuselage between the gear legs. The plane has been flying for 6+ years with this setup, and working fine. The only problem I've ever had with ATC hearing my calls is on the ground, when (I assume) a gear leg is blocking transmission. I can turn the plane slightly and they hear me fine. In the air, I've never had a problem with reception or transmission, even at fairly long distances. Yesterday I flew a cross country and called for flight following soon after my departure from my uncontrolled airport. They heard me fine, and gave me a squawk code. They acknowledged my position, and no further comm with me until he was ready to hand me off. I was hearing all his other exchanges with other planes. He called to hand off, and I acknowledged. (Transmit light on the A200 came on). Before I could switch, he called back with the same transmission. He hadn't heard my reply. I tried several times to respond and no luck. I switched freq's and I couldn't raise the next controller either. I waited 10 min or so and finally got him. I'm assuming my transmissions were weak, and only got thru when I was close to their antenna. I just cancelled with him, and continued on. ...reception is perfect ...transmit light on A200 illuminating ...my radio is being heard by ATC intermittently Where should I start troubleshooting? Thanks! Tom


    Message 5


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    Time: 09:04:55 AM PST US
    Subject: PLEASE! A Reminder...
    From: "jonlaury" <jonlaury@impulse.net>
    In the interest of clarity in the daily digest, and unclogging the archives, PLEASE REVIEW Matt Dralle's Useage Guidelines. To wit: "- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! " Cheers, John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404061#404061


    Message 6


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    Time: 09:25:40 AM PST US
    From: Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Trouble transmitting...
    Easiest thing first: I've seen what you're describing when the power wire broke *almost* completely--only one or two strands remained. I assume the radio couldn't draw enough power to put out a decent transmission, as it takes much more power to transmit than to do any of the other things it normally does. Same would go for the ground as well, and either one might only show intermittently. Dave Saylor 831-750-0284 CL


    Message 7


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    Time: 09:26:09 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: PLEASE! A Reminder...
    From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
    Jon, I was about to make this same post. I would only add; Remember when you are sending a message of thanks, congratulations or other post with no real relevance to the subject, put the phrase "do not archive" on the line below your signature so that fluff will not clutter up the archives. Rick Girard do not archive On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 11:04 AM, jonlaury <jonlaury@impulse.net> wrote: > > In the interest of clarity in the daily digest, and unclogging the > archives, PLEASE REVIEW Matt Dralle's Useage Guidelines. > To wit: > > "- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of > your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it > easy to find threads in the archive. > > - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your > response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the > reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that > quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive > can not be overstated! " > > Cheers, > John > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404061#404061 > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx


    Message 8


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    Time: 09:51:45 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Trouble transmitting...
    At 11:03 AM 7/6/2013, you wrote: I have an RV4 with an Icom A200 radio installed. The antenna is a bent whip installed on the bottom of the fuselage between the gear legs. The plane has been flying for 6+ years with this setup, and working fine. The only problem I've ever had with ATC hearing my calls is on the ground, when (I assume) a gear leg is blocking transmission. I can turn the plane slightly and they hear me fine. In the air, I've never had a problem with reception or transmission, even at fairly long distances. Yesterday I flew a cross country and called for flight following soon after my departure from my uncontrolled airport. They heard me fine, and gave me a squawk code. They acknowledged my position, and no further comm with me until he was ready to hand me off. I was hearing all his other exchanges with other planes. He called to hand off, and I acknowledged. (Transmit light on the A200 came on). Before I could switch, he called back with the same transmission. He hadn't heard my reply. I tried several times to respond and no luck. I switched freq's and I couldn't raise the next controller either. I waited 10 min or so and finally got him. I'm assuming my transmissions were weak, and only got thru when I was close to their antenna. I just cancelled with him, and continued on. ...reception is perfect ...transmit light on A200 illuminating ...my radio is being heard by ATC intermittently Where should I start troubleshooting? Given the long history of un-eventful and satisfactory performance, the first rocks to peek under are things most likely to have CHANGED. The first thing I would do is get an SWR/PWR meter and check both transmitter power output -AND- antenna SWR. Two things that might have changed is condition of the transmitter's power output stages or condition of the antenna and its feed line. Here's a good example of a tool for this task. http://tinyurl.com/k4t2pn9 We reviewed this product here on the List a couple of years ago. It's a great performer at a very reasonable price. Every EAA chapter ought to have one to lend to members. Problems like these yield only to quantifiable measurement. If you acquire one of these, you will want to acquire N-male to F-BNC adapters. http://tinyurl.com/ksmdxch and a short piece of good coax (about 2' long) with a BNC-Male on each end. http://tinyurl.com/cgr42l5 (scroll down to RB-142 Cable Assemblies) Lord Kelvin expressed it thusly: "When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind; it may be the beginning of knowledge, but you have scarcely, in your thoughts advanced to the stage of science." Bob . . .


    Message 9


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    Time: 10:25:45 AM PST US
    Subject: Quads - Remarkable UAVs
    From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us
    Hi Group A little off topic, but very interesting TED presentation I want to share: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2itwFJCgFQ&feature=youtu.be Ron Parigoris


    Message 10


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    Time: 01:30:34 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Looking for (off topic)
    I'd like to tap the collective experience of the list in search of a gizmo that I don't even know what to call it . . . I've seen cousins to the 'Chinese finger trap' that could be slipped over a hose or large wire bundle. One end of the 'trap' is fitted with a loop of small cable . . . the same cable that makes up the cylinder of the device. When placed over the hose/bundle and tensioned, it grabs the outside surface over a large area (essential damage free, low pressure) while getting a grip on it. The work piece may then be secured to some suspension point. I've seen them used to hold up drop cords suspended from the ceiling. I've 'wandered' through the Grainger and McMaster catalogs. I'd bet they have 'em if I just knew the name of the beasts! Any ideas? Bob . . .


    Message 11


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    Time: 01:37:57 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Looking for (off topic)
    I'd bet they have 'em if I just knew the name of the beasts! Any ideas? Duhhh . . . how about 'pulling grips'? It's amazing how simple gaps in language can cause one to waste so much time! Bob . . .


    Message 12


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    Time: 01:52:11 PM PST US
    From: Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca>
    Subject: Looking for (off topic)
    Bob; They're called "Kellums grips". Actually that is one brand name, but should provide sources for you. They are made by Hubbell. Bob McC > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III > Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2013 4:30 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Looking for (off topic) > > <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > I'd like to tap the collective experience of > the list in search of a gizmo that I don't even > know what to call it . . . > > I've seen cousins to the 'Chinese finger trap' that > could be slipped over a hose or large wire bundle. > One end of the 'trap' is fitted with a loop of small > cable . . . the same cable that makes up the > cylinder of the device. > > When placed over the hose/bundle and tensioned, > it grabs the outside surface over a large area > (essential damage free, low pressure) while > getting a grip on it. The work piece may then > be secured to some suspension point. > > I've seen them used to hold up drop cords suspended > from the ceiling. I've 'wandered' through the > Grainger and McMaster catalogs. I'd bet they have > 'em if I just knew the name of the beasts! > > Any ideas? > > > Bob . . . > > > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > >


    Message 13


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    Time: 01:56:13 PM PST US
    From: Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca>
    Subject: Looking for (off topic)
    Sorry, spelling error "Kellems" not "Kellums" Bob McC > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob McCallum [mailto:robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca] > Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2013 4:52 PM > To: 'aeroelectric-list@matronics.com' > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Looking for (off topic) > > Bob; > > They're called "Kellums grips". Actually that is one brand name, but should provide > sources for you. They are made by Hubbell. > > Bob McC > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric- > list- > > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III > > Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2013 4:30 PM > > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Looking for (off topic) > > > > <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > > > I'd like to tap the collective experience of > > the list in search of a gizmo that I don't even > > know what to call it . . . > > > > I've seen cousins to the 'Chinese finger trap' that > > could be slipped over a hose or large wire bundle. > > One end of the 'trap' is fitted with a loop of small > > cable . . . the same cable that makes up the > > cylinder of the device. > > > > When placed over the hose/bundle and tensioned, > > it grabs the outside surface over a large area > > (essential damage free, low pressure) while > > getting a grip on it. The work piece may then > > be secured to some suspension point. > > > > I've seen them used to hold up drop cords suspended > > from the ceiling. I've 'wandered' through the > > Grainger and McMaster catalogs. I'd bet they have > > 'em if I just knew the name of the beasts! > > > > Any ideas? > > > > > > Bob . . . > > > > > > _- > > > ==================================================== > > ====== > > _- > > > ==================================================== > > ====== > > _- > > > ==================================================== > > ====== > > _- > > > ==================================================== > > ====== > > > >


    Message 14


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    Time: 02:06:44 PM PST US
    From: Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca>
    Subject: Looking for (off topic)
    Try this catalogue http://tinyurl.com/khffnbb Bob McC > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III > Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2013 4:38 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Looking for (off topic) > > <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > I'd bet they have > 'em if I just knew the name of the beasts! > > Any ideas? > > Duhhh . . . how about 'pulling grips'? > It's amazing how simple gaps in language > can cause one to waste so much time! > > > Bob . . . > > > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > >


    Message 15


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    Time: 02:26:39 PM PST US
    From: Bill Putney <billp@wwpc.com>
    Subject: Re: Looking for (off topic)
    They're called "grips". They are also used to hoist coaxial cables up towers. You can find them in broadcast and two way radio vendors lists. Bill On 7/6/13 1:29 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > I'd like to tap the collective experience of > the list in search of a gizmo that I don't even > know what to call it . . . > > I've seen cousins to the 'Chinese finger trap' that > could be slipped over a hose or large wire bundle. > One end of the 'trap' is fitted with a loop of small > cable . . . the same cable that makes up the > cylinder of the device. > > When placed over the hose/bundle and tensioned, > it grabs the outside surface over a large area > (essential damage free, low pressure) while > getting a grip on it. The work piece may then > be secured to some suspension point. > > I've seen them used to hold up drop cords suspended > from the ceiling. I've 'wandered' through the > Grainger and McMaster catalogs. I'd bet they have > 'em if I just knew the name of the beasts! > > Any ideas? > > > Bob . . . > >


    Message 16


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    Time: 04:04:37 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Looking for (off topic)
    At 04:25 PM 7/6/2013, you wrote: > >They're called "grips". They are also used to hoist coaxial cables >up towers. You can find them in broadcast and two way radio vendors lists. > >Bill Yeah, I've used them many times back in my tower climbing days. Just had a hard block on the right term. I want to use some to tether garden hoses to a stake next to the hydrant. Our hose bibs have timers on them . . . made of plastic. One good tug with the hose would break them. These basket-woven grips seem like just the ticket for grabbing the hose and maintaining a bend relief between the stake and hose bib. Thanks guys! Bob . . .


    Message 17


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    Time: 04:15:25 PM PST US
    From: Jeff Luckey <jluckey@pacbell.net>
    Subject: Re: Looking for (off topic)
    Bob,=0A=0AI think the name you are looking for is "kellum".- =0A=0AI used to get them from Hubbell, see:=0Ahttp://ecatalog.hubbell-wiring.com/Produc tInformation/ViewCatalog.aspx?Dest=hubbell-wiring.com/press/catalog/t.pdf &Page=59=0A=0Ahere is another reference from google:=0Ahttp://www.plccent er.com/Shop/KELLEMS/074093514/FNFP?source=GoogleShopping&gclid=COGg3aj_ m7gCFUQ6QgodSA4AGg=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A Fro m: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>=0ATo: aeroelec tric-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Saturday, July 6, 2013 1:29 PM=0ASubject: AeroElectric-List: Looking for (off topic)=0A =0A=0A--> AeroElectric-List m essage posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> =0A=0AI'd like to tap the collective experience of=0Athe list in search of a gizmo that I don't even=0Aknow what to call it . . .=0A=0AI've seen cousi ns to the 'Chinese finger trap' that=0Acould be slipped over a hose or larg e wire bundle.=0AOne end of the 'trap' is fitted with a loop of small=0Acab le . . . the same cable that makes up the=0Acylinder of the device.=0A=0AWh en placed over the hose/bundle and tensioned,=0Ait grabs the outside surfac e over a large area=0A(essential damage free, low pressure) while=0Agetting a grip on it. The work piece may then=0Abe secured to some suspension poin t.=0A=0AI've seen them used to hold up drop cords suspended=0Afrom the ceil ing. I've 'wandered' through the=0AGrainger and McMaster catalogs. I'd bet they have=0A'em if I just knew the name of the beasts!=0A=0AAny ideas?=0A =


    Message 18


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    Time: 04:35:51 PM PST US
    From: rayj <raymondj@frontiernet.net>
    Subject: Re: Looking for (off topic)
    Bob, Mightsuggest a less expensive solution. Use some cotton lineand tie some half hitches, or a taut line hitch or two, or a prussic knot or twoaround the hose.Perhaps anchorthe initial bite with a cinch knot. While they may need renewing every few years, the overall cost of ownership I expect will be lower over your and your children's lifetimes. do not archive Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 07/06/2013 06:04 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > At 04:25 PM 7/6/2013, you wrote: >> >> They're called "grips". They are also used to hoist coaxial cables up >> towers. You can find them in broadcast and two way radio vendors lists. >> >> Bill > > Yeah, I've used them many times back in my tower > climbing days. Just had a hard block on the right > term. > > I want to use some to tether garden hoses to > a stake next to the hydrant. Our hose bibs > have timers on them . . . made of plastic. > One good tug with the hose would break them. > These basket-woven grips seem like just the > ticket for grabbing the hose and maintaining > a bend relief between the stake and hose > bib. Thanks guys! > > > Bob . . . > >


    Message 19


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    Time: 04:50:50 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Looking for (off topic)
    At 06:35 PM 7/6/2013, you wrote: >Bob, > >Might suggest a less expensive solution. Use some cotton line and >tie some half hitches, or a taut line hitch or two, or a prussic >knot or two around the hose. Perhaps anchor the initial bite with a >cinch knot. While they may need renewing every few years, the >overall cost of ownership I expect will be lower over your and your >children's lifetimes. Funny you should mention that. Off the shelf versions are pretty pricey given that they are made from 20-cents worth of wire rope. Saw a youtube presentation on DIY finger traps. I deduced that about 15 minutes and four, 3-foot pieces of rope woven over the appropriate dowel would produce a clone of such devices. Thought about just using synthetic cordage but I got a really good deal on some 1/16" stainless cable off eBay. This will make a good 'shop project' . . . not perhaps for the children but certainly for the grand kids. Thanks! Bob . . .


    Message 20


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    Time: 05:11:21 PM PST US
    From: CardinalNSB@aol.com
    Subject: starter solenoid
    So, I understand that the solenoid needs to make its mechanical travel so the teeth are engaged, before the high current is sent to the starter. That is why the high current to the starter doesn't connect until the plunger is extended. Thanks Skip


    Message 21


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    Time: 08:42:13 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: starter solenoid
    At 07:01 PM 7/6/2013, you wrote: >So, I understand that the solenoid needs to make its mechanical >travel so the teeth are engaged, before the high current is sent to >the starter. Yes . . . current available from the FAT wire . . . > That is why the high current to the starter doesn't connect until > the plunger is extended. Thanks Skip The "high current" we have been discussing is that which flows into the SMALL terminal on the solenoid/ contactor assembly. Current that normally comes though the START switch on the panel. This current starts out high . . . ~30A to effect rapid and positive engagement of the pinion gear. Only when the contacts close and energize the starter motor does the contactor coil terminal current FALL to the LOWER holding value on the order of 10A. All this fussing over external contactors or boost relays is for purpose of reducing abuse of the START switch. Bob . . .


    Message 22


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    Time: 08:42:43 PM PST US
    From: Ed <decaclops@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Master Switch/Contactor and Starter Questions
    Howdy Bob, When I said contactor, I meant the firewall variety, a B&C unit. That's the one I'm not throwing away, ;-) I did not measure the coil resistance on that one. I replaced the starter solenoid because it was demanding 20 - 30 starter button pushes before it would crank. The starter contactor on the firewall clunks reliably. The new solenoid coil measured .3 ohm. I don't figure that to be very accurate, but it is repeatable. The VOM leads measured about .5 and then .8 for the coil so I called it .3 ohm. I was just a bit surprised that it was that low, even if I were off a little. Now that I read your piece about contactors and soleniods, I understand why the low resistance. My comment about keeping the contactor was that I'd just as soon not do that to my starter switch. By the way, the Borg Warner (BWD) part number for the starter solenoid I just put on my PM SkyTec is: S5613 I got mine at O'Rielly's auto parts for ~$25. That's much better than $200 flat rate repair at SkyTec + shipping and wait for it. Speaking of diodes, is this overkill? http://www.amazon.com/Amico-Molded-Plastic-Rectifier-Diodes/dp/B009IN1KB8/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1373088088&sr=8-6&keywords=diodes I can get these, but the shipping is more than the diodes: http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DKSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&itemSeq=133108363&uq=635086673453750862 Pax, Ed On 7/6/2013 6:12 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 11:54 PM 7/5/2013, you wrote: >> >> I knew on some level that low ohms means high current. That's why I >> questioned it, but I didn't do the math. 35 amps is a bunch! I'm not >> planning to throw away my starter contactor anytime soon. I did >> measure the coil both directions and it is the same. > > Which starter contactor are we talking about? > One *built onto a starter* or an *external* contactor? > > When you mentioned 0.3 ohms, the first image in > my head was for a contactor built onto a starter. > These DO present a very low terminal resistance in the > de-energized mode. There's mechanism inside that > demands a ~30A closure current and a more moderate, > ~10A holding current. . . > > Run of the mill external contactors > > http://tinyurl.com/kqphmh > > <http://tinyurl.com/kqphmh> . . . have no such shift in demand and > will require > ~5A to close and hold the contacts. Further, the models > sold previously by us and now by B&C have built > in coil suppression diodes. > > Be wary of low resistance measurements with the > garden variety multimeter. They're not designed > to 'wash out' the effects of lead length and their > excitation current to a device under test is > too low to offer useful resolution of low resistance > measurements. > > This limitation is what prompted the design of a > 4-wire low resistance measurements adapter. This > was published in a Beech shop notes bulletin some > years back. We had a rash of unnecessary replacement > of landing gear down-lock indicator switches on > fielded aircraft. This was traced to the quality > of contact resistance measurements using the > garden variety multi-meter. The task demanded > instrumentation better suited to the task. > > http://tinyurl.com/4l3tuj6 > > <http://tinyurl.com/4l3tuj6> A few years later I crafted this product > based > on the earlier article . . . > > http://tinyurl.com/6g9e7vm <http://tinyurl.com/6g9e7vm> > > The value of this technique for low resistance > measurement is described in the Grounding > chapter of the 'Connection. The same technique > is useful for getting meaningful data on coil > and contact resistance of the more robust components > in the ship's electrical system. > > > Bob . . . > > * > > > *


    Message 23


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    Time: 08:44:24 PM PST US
    From: Ed <decaclops@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Master Switch/Contactor and Starter Questions
    I'm with you there, Bob. Ed On 7/6/2013 6:19 AM, Bob McCallum wrote: > > >> I knew on some level that low ohms means high current. That's why I >> questioned it, but I didn't do the math. 35 amps is a bunch! I'm not >> planning to throw away my starter contactor anytime soon. I did measure >> the coil both directions and it is the same. >> >> Ed Holyoke > And that's why you don't re-invent the wheel, but rather follow the > conventional wisdom of using a "standard" starter contactor ahead of the > solenoid built into the starter OR use a buffer relay to energize the > solenoid just as all modern cars do and as Bob has explained in a previous > post. (your starter won't operate without the built in solenoid as that is > what engages the pinion with the ring gear) > > Bob McC > >


    Message 24


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    Time: 09:38:19 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Master Switch/Contactor and Starter Questions
    > > >Speaking of diodes, is this overkill? ><http://www.amazon.com/Amico-Molded-Plastic-Rectifier-Diodes/dp/B009IN1KB8/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1373088088&sr=8-6&keywords=diodes>http://www.amazon.com/Amico-Molded-Plastic-Rectifier-Diodes/dp/B009IN1KB8/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1373088088&sr=8-6&keywords=diodes > >I can get these, but the shipping is more than the diodes: ><http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DKSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&itemSeq=133108363&uq=635086673453750862>http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DKSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&itemSeq=133108363&uq=635086673453750862 I like the 1N5400 series devices which are stocked by Radio Shack http://tinyurl.com/pfwlz2v and Jameco http://tinyurl.com/qjefqzq if you don't mind paying for 0.08 each in packs of 30. They use first class parcel for small orders . . . these would come to your door for under $2. The 1N5400 has reasonably robust leads and package. Smaller diodes work too but these are mechanically user friendly, easy to get and the price is right. Any P/N in the 1N540x series is okay from 0 to 9 Bob . . .




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