Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:34 AM - Re: Re: Boeing switches (Jay Hyde)
2. 04:41 AM - Re: Trouble transmitting... (Mark Wesson)
3. 06:26 AM - Subject: Re: Jabiru alternator noise-what really causes (Chris)
4. 06:59 AM - Re: Subject: Re: Jabiru alternator noise-what really causes (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 07:10 AM - Choosing the switches for an RV-10 (Owen Baker)
6. 07:43 AM - Re: Choosing the switches for an RV-10 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 08:22 AM - Re: Looking for (off topic) (Larry Mac Donald)
8. 09:17 AM - Interesting product (Eric Page)
9. 09:59 AM - Re: Low voltage indicator with dual alternators (Bill Watson)
10. 11:13 AM - Re: Jabiru alternator noise-what really causes it? (Jerry)
11. 11:42 AM - Re: Interesting product (Ralph Finch)
12. 01:05 PM - Re: Choosing the switches for an RV-10 (Paul Fisher)
13. 01:29 PM - Re: Low voltage indicator with dual alternators (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
14. 01:39 PM - Re: Interesting product (Verso Electronics)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Boeing switches |
That is exactly what I will be doing once the aircraft is flying; testing
how heavy the control forces are with the trim at either limit; on a
'step-by-step' basis until full travel is reached- then I can decide if any
further circuitry is merited, or perhaps a change in the mechanical trim
arrangement. That is what I like so much about OBAM aircraft; with a bit of
careful observation and rational thinking we can determine and apply the
solutions ourselves..
Jay
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: 05 July 2013 12:22 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Boeing switches
--> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
At 01:05 PM 7/4/2013, you wrote:
>--> <jay@horriblehyde.com>
>
>Good argument Bob.... I use a switch on the panel to power the trim,
>but that may be a bit far away for a quick reaction, before the trim
>lurks all the way to the end.
You would do well to deduce the severity of a
trim runaway. Is the airplane controllable with
full trim either up or down? How fast does the
trim run with respect to pilot reaction times
needed to deal with a runaway? Are there stops
or limits to trim excursion necessary for the full
range of CG envelopes or will the system produce
more pitch authority than would ever be necessary
for normal operations?
In a Lear, at Mach cruise, the system is manually
failed and the pilot is obligated to keep hands in
the lap for 3 seconds. Only then can he move to
deal with the situation. After achieving a stable,
safe condition, recorded data is analyzed for
busting limits on attitude, altitude and airspeed
excursions.
The exercise is repeated and trim speeds then
adjusted until a sweat-free, runaway recovery
is assured.
The trim systems I've seen in some TC aircraft
are so slow that unexpected trims under worst
case conditions are no big deal. But what's the
story for YOUR airplane?
Yes, if trim speeds are brisk, trim authority high
and you have good reason for not reducing them, then some
form of inarguable override is indicated. Instructing
the pilot to pull a breaker for taming a trim runaway
is generally not acceptable . . . even panel mounted
switche situated amongst other switches will get
you frowns from the human factors guys.
At the same time, find out just how much risk is
associated with an uncontrolled trim event and
see if that can be engineered out as opposed to
stacking emergency ops hardware on top of the
design.
Bob . . .
Message 2
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Subject: | Trouble transmitting... |
Tom,
This sounds like a problem I have on a regular basis with a perfect radio.
If you are being handed off it is becuase you are exiting his area and
entering the next. This usually puts you at the furthest point from both
radios.
I have this problem even flying IFR in some more remote places.
A radio power output and SWR check are a good maintenance ckeck item anyway
but I would not be too worrried about one event.
Mark Wesson
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom
Chapman
Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2013 10:04 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Trouble transmitting...
Thanks Bob and Dave!
I have a starting point now and will get going on it tomorrow...
Tom
...reception is perfect
...transmit light on A200 illuminating
...my radio is being heard by ATC intermittently
Where should I start troubleshooting?
Given the long history of un-eventful and
satisfactory performance, the first rocks
to peek under are things most likely to
have CHANGED.
The first thing I would do is get an SWR/PWR
meter and check both transmitter power output
-AND- antenna SWR. Two things that might have
changed is condition of the transmitter's power
output stages or condition of the antenna
and its feed line.
Here's a good example of a tool for this task.
http://tinyurl.com/k4t2pn9
We reviewed this product here on the List a
couple of years ago. It's a great performer
at a very reasonable price. Every EAA chapter
ought to have one to lend to members. Problems
like these yield only to quantifiable measurement.
If you acquire one of these, you will want to
acquire N-male to F-BNC adapters.
http://tinyurl.com/ksmdxch
and a short piece of good coax (about 2' long)
with a BNC-Male on each end.
http://tinyurl.com/cgr42l5 (scroll down to RB-142 Cable Assemblies)
Lord Kelvin expressed it thusly:
"When you can measure what you are speaking about,
and express it in numbers, you know something about it,
when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge
is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind; it may be the
beginning of knowledge, but you have scarcely, in
your thoughts advanced to the stage of science."
Bob . . .
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Jabiru alternator noise-what really |
causes
=9C Is the microphone jack electrically isolated
from the airframe? Further, does it's ground wire
route in parallel with mic audio and ptt lines
back to the radio?=9D
Not sure about the mic audio and ptt grounds but will check when I get
back from holiday. We did isolate the jacks.Noise is the same whether
its intercom or radio, only time it disappears is when we take the
alternator out of the mix.
=9C P.S. Where are the alternator and battery
grounded? To the Forest=of=Tabs?=9D
The battery is grounded on the engine firewall side to the forest of
tabs, the alternator is case grounded to the engine, it has two leads
from it that go to the regulator. These leads are twisted for their full
length. It has been described as a dynamo more than an alternator, where
the rectification takes place at the regulator? These two wires are
carrying A/C as far as I can tell.
Thanks for the input
Chris
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Jabiru alternator noise-what really |
causes
Is the microphone jack electrically isolated
from the airframe? Further, does it's ground wire
route in parallel with mic audio and ptt lines
back to the radio?
Not sure about the mic audio and ptt grounds but will check when I
get back from holiday. We did isolate the jacks.Noise is the same
whether its intercom or radio, only time it disappears is when we
take the alternator out of the mix.
Okay. The high probability condition is
a ground loop that injects alternator
noise directly into the microphone
wiring.
Where are the alternator and battery
grounded? To the Forest=of=Tabs?
The battery is grounded on the engine firewall side to the forest of
tabs, the alternator is case grounded to the engine, it has two leads
from it that go to the regulator. These leads are twisted for their
full length.
Hmmmm . . . the PM alternator should be
totally isolated from ground. I.e. a pair
of leads come off the ends of the winding
and go directly to the rectifier/regulator.
Does the R/R have a case connection? The only
ones I am familiar with feature electronics that
float completely within the case.
It has been described as a dynamo more than an alternator, where the
rectification takes place at the regulator?
Yeah, the common vernacular speaks to the PM
alternator as a 'dynamo'. Back in the early
days of belt driven alternators for cars, the
rectifiers and regulators were external too.
These two wires are carrying A/C as far as I can tell.
Check to make sure the R/R does not incorporate
any kind of case ground. Consider an experiment
to connect the R/R(+) lead directly to battery(+)
at the contactor and R/R(-) lead directly to the
forest of tabs.
As microphones go, the voltage levels at the
mic jack for an aviation mic is pretty high . . .
hundreds of millivolts. To inject so strong
a signal from the alternator into the mic circuitry
suggests an extra-ordinary set of physics . . .
especially since your alternator is so limited
in output.
I think we're going to find that something
in the wiring is not as presently perceived.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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Subject: | Choosing the switches for an RV-10 |
7/8/2013
Hello Carlos, You wrote: =9CFor the magnetos and starter, did
everybody use the ACS combined keyed
switch, or is it better to use 2 toggles and one push-button momentary
starter switch?=9D
Given the wiring complexity (confusion) and the widely published poor
reliability of the ACS combined starter =93 magneto switch I am
surprised that any amateur builder would even consider installing such a
switch in the aircraft that he is building.
OC
'O C' Baker says "The best investment you can make is the effort to
gather and understand information."
PS: A more ponderable choice is how to place the switches in the panel.
Two schools of thought are: a) Scatter the switches about the panel in
some manner that locates the switches close to the instrument or device
being controlled (an ergonomic philosophy); or b) Place all (or as many
is feasible) of the switches in close proximity so that at one glance
one can tell if all switches are either ON or OFF (a visual domination
philosophy).
=============
Time: 02:38:19 AM PST US
From: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo@mail.telepac.pt>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Choosing the switches for an RV-10
Guys
It's time to choose the switches for the RV-10 panel, and I wonder which
ones are more popular between the RV-10 builders:
For the Master and ALT field, have you used the Cessna split rocker or
just
2 separate toggle switches?
For the magnetos and starter, did everybody use the ACS combined keyed
switch, or is it better to use 2 toggles and one push-button momentary
starter switch?
And for the lights and other electrical equipment, which has been the
choice: the classic rocker switches or the color coded toggle switches?
Thanks for your opinions, both in the technical and the functional
aspects
Carlos
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Choosing the switches for an RV-10 |
>
>
>Given the wiring complexity (confusion) and the
>widely published poor reliability of the ACS
>combined starter ' magneto switch I am surprised
>that any amateur builder would even consider
>installing such a switch in the aircraft that he is building.
>
>OC
Can you point me to the discussions about this product?
Are reliability issues centered on any one feature
of the design? This switch is a clone of the legacy
Bendix/Gerdes product popularlized in the single-engine
markets waaayyy back when. I think I recall seeing a
twin that needed two-keys to go flying. I'm wondering
if the problems are not centered on starter contactor
currents. The FAA saw fit to mandate adding a diode
to the circuit for airplanes that were being upgraded
to modern, two-stage solenoid/contactors . . . when
in fact, contact opening arcing was just the worst
of stress . . . that 30A inrush was still there . . .
a stress that the switch was never designed to manage.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Looking for (off topic) |
Bob,
I don't recall the name either. But, if you check with an elevator
construction firm I'm sure they will have a name for this part.
They use them to suspend the hoistway cables in the shaftway.
Larry
On Jul 6, 2013, at 4:29 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> I'd like to tap the collective experience of
> the list in search of a gizmo that I don't even
> know what to call it . . .
>
> I've seen cousins to the 'Chinese finger trap' that
> could be slipped over a hose or large wire bundle.
> One end of the 'trap' is fitted with a loop of small
> cable . . . the same cable that makes up the
> cylinder of the device.
>
> When placed over the hose/bundle and tensioned,
> it grabs the outside surface over a large area
> (essential damage free, low pressure) while
> getting a grip on it. The work piece may then
> be secured to some suspension point.
>
> I've seen them used to hold up drop cords suspended
> from the ceiling. I've 'wandered' through the
> Grainger and McMaster catalogs. I'd bet they have
> 'em if I just knew the name of the beasts!
>
> Any ideas?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
>
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Message 8
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Subject: | Interesting product |
All,
I stumbled on this while looking for something else this morning and thought it
might be of general interest. Looks like a pretty nifty product.
http://www.panelpilot.com/
Cheers, Eric
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Low voltage indicator with dual alternators |
On 7/6/2013 9:31 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
>
>> I have the same setup and that's how it works. That is, the low
>> voltage light simply monitors the voltage on the bus independent of
>> alternator operation. Given that, I've wondered how a failed
>> alternator would manifest itself.
>
> What architecture are we talking about? Z-12 or Z-14?
> With independent buses for each alternator, the two
> systems are normally operated with the cross-feed OPEN.
> Each LV montior will tell the condition of it's respective
> bus.
It's a Z-14
>
>
>> - If failure was due to an overvoltage situation, the breaker would
>> pop. Since I normally fly with the 2 buses interconnected
>
> Not recommended.
I see what you mean.
>
>> I would expect the low voltage lights to remain off perhaps for the
>> remainder of the flight. If one did come on because bus voltage
>> dropped below the threshold, I would expect both to come on more or
>> less simultaneously as long as the buses were interconnected. The
>> only explicit indication of Alt failure would be the popped OV breaker.
>
> The design goals for Z-14 were two-fold. (1)
> being able to parallel batteries for engine
> cranking and (2) being able to share power between
> systems in the event of an alternator failure.
>
> As you have deduced, running them in parallel
> during normal operations has the potential for
> obscuring failure of one of the alternators.
My operational goals for the Z-14 included being able to run much of the
panel on one battery while still having a fully charged battery for
starting. The idea being that I wanted to be able to enter flight plans
and even check weather before engine start. That's worked out well. I
can connect the buses for starts if needed and that works well as well.
However, I normally start with the buses separated because if I go
parallel, the voltage drop causes my 3 MDFs to re-boot.
>
>> - Are there other modes of Alternator failure where there would be no
>> explicit indication of failure? I'm thinking that a snapped belt
>> would be an example. If loads and battery condition were such that
>> the interconnected bus voltage stayed above the low volt threshold,
>> there would be no explicit indication. Is that right?
>
> Yes. Another reason for running them independently
> of each other for normal flight ops. With the crossfeed
> closed, you have a Z-12 with dual batteries. Unless
> one alternator is configured for stand-by operation by
> incorporation of the appropriate regulator, then you
> have two alternators in a paralleled mode of operation
> controlled by regulators not designed for paralleling
> (current management) of the two alternators.
>
I'll be going back to running independent. I know what got me started
running with the buses interconnected but I lost track of what this
robust configuration is designed to do.
Thanks Bob!
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Jabiru alternator noise-what really causes it? |
On 7/7/2013 9:02 AM, Chris wrote:
> Hi All
> A friend of mine has purchased a Zodiac 601 with a Jabiru engine.
> The problem was originally lots of noise in the headsets. We rewired
> the grounding , installed a forest of tabs on the firewall proper
> ground strap to the engine. This cleared up all the noise and the
> receive side of the radio is clear. The problem now is when
> transmitting there is a loud side tone type noise along with the
> verbal transmission, this noise gets worse with higher rpm.. The
> transmission of voice is clear and fairly loud, but the hum that
> accompanies it is very annoying to controllers. We disconnected the
> alternator (dynamo) and the noise disappears. The alternator puts out
> about 15 amps and is a bit on the small side for his application.
> Jabiru suggests twisting the two alternator wires together which we
> did and we also shielded them with no change. My question is what
> actually causes this, and is there a way to get rid of it? It is a
> Microaire radio, using the built in intercom. I did try a capacitor on
> the main bus to ground with little or no effect.
>
I had the same problem with a Microair with an external intercom.
Finally solved it by installing a Flightline 760.
Jerry
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Interesting product |
Even after watching the demo it's unclear to me what this thing is supposed
to do.
For laying out my instrument panel I am using XPanel:
http://www.xpanelsoftware.com/
On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 9:17 AM, Eric Page <edpav8r@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> All,
>
> I stumbled on this while looking for something else this morning and
> thought it might be of general interest. Looks like a pretty nifty product.
>
> http://www.panelpilot.com/
>
> Cheers, Eric
>
>
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Choosing the switches for an RV-10 |
I installed the ACS keyed switch in a homebuilt I finished in 1990. Wiring
was straight forward (Bob has a good diagram in the Z figures), and it has
given me 23 years of reliable service. I put another one in my most recent
project and it has been working fine for four years. So my personal
experience does not support your statement below.
It is simply part of the "security theater". As long as you are
comfortable, toggle switches will work as well.
YMMV, but the ACS switch has worked fine for me.
Paul A. Fisher
Q-200 N17PF - ~1,400 hours
RV-7A N18PF- ~400 hours
On Jul 8, 2013 9:16 AM, "Owen Baker" <bakerocb@cox.net> wrote:
> 7/8/2013
>
> Hello Carlos, You wrote: =93For the magnetos and starter, did everybody
> use the ACS combined keyed
> switch, or is it better to use 2 toggles and one push-button momentary
> starter switch?=94
>
> Given the wiring complexity (confusion) and the widely published poor
> reliability of the ACS combined starter ' magneto switch I am surprised
> that any amateur builder would even consider installing such a switch in
> the aircraft that he is building.
>
> OC
>
> 'O C' Baker says "The best investment you can make is the effort to gathe
r
> and understand information."
>
> PS: A more ponderable choice is how to place the switches in the panel.
> Two schools of thought are: a) Scatter the switches about the panel in so
me
> manner that locates the switches close to the instrument or device being
> controlled (an ergonomic philosophy); or b) Place all (or as many is
> feasible) of the switches in close proximity so that at one glance one ca
n
> tell if all switches are either ON or OFF (a visual domination philosophy
).
>
> ========================
==============
>
>
> Time: 02:38:19 AM PST US
> From: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo@mail.telepac.pt>
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Choosing the switches for an RV-10
>
> Guys
>
>
> It's time to choose the switches for the RV-10 panel, and I wonder which
> ones are more popular between the RV-10 builders:
>
>
> For the Master and ALT field, have you used the Cessna split rocker or ju
st
> 2 separate toggle switches?
>
>
> For the magnetos and starter, did everybody use the ACS combined keyed
> switch, or is it better to use 2 toggles and one push-button momentary
> starter switch?
>
>
> And for the lights and other electrical equipment, which has been the
> choice: the classic rocker switches or the color coded toggle switches?
>
>
> Thanks for your opinions, both in the technical and the functional aspect
s
>
> Carlos
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Low voltage indicator with dual alternators |
>My operational goals for the Z-14 included being able to run much of
>the panel
>on one battery while still having a fully charged battery for starting. The
>idea being that I wanted to be able to enter flight plans and even
>check weather
>before engine start. That's worked out well. I can connect the
>buses for starts
>if needed and that works well as well.
Okay, but consider the ENERGY needed to do these two tasks.
Suppose you turn on three electro-whizzies for a total drain
of 3A (a lot for solid state gizmos) and take 5 minutes to
herd all the ducks into place. That 12v x 3A x 300 seconds
for a total of 11,000 watt-seconds.
Now, lets crank the engine at 200A x 12v x 10 seconds
for a total of 24,000 watt-seconds.
How much energy is available for use in a 18 a.h.
SVLA battery? At a 3A rate will give it up over 5 hours
at an average voltage of 11.5 for a total of about 650,000
watt-seconds.
In other words, the task of conducting pre-flight activities
and starting the engine are not big demands on a well
maintained battery.
>
>However, I normally start with the buses separated because if I go
>parallel, the voltage drop causes my 3 MDFs to re-boot.
How much 'stuff' do you have to turn on before engine
start? On the Beech products we used to offer a mini-ebus
switch that would let you fire up a comm radio directly
from the battery. Your comm radio probably needs 0.2A receive,
and maybe 1.5A transmit. A long winded pre-flight activity
might need 1000 watt-seconds.
I'm thinking that the bus from which all your 'kitchen
sink' accessories is powered also powers the comm radio
and you have no way to power up the comm radio independently?
You might want to consider moving a comm radio to a
battery bus and adding . . .
COMM RADIO . . . . . Check OFF
. . . . to your shutdown checklist.
Bottom line is that with two batteries on board, you've
got perhaps a million watt-seconds to burn. Doing your
starts in parallel will reduce relative abuse to the batteries
and extend their service life. Letting the 'kitchen sink'
accessories clock in after engine start may not be
a significant delay in your departure plans.
Bob . . .
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Interesting product |
Ralph,
It's a video screen that can be customized through PC software to display tw
o separate input voltages in various ways. The voltages can be expressions o
f volts, amps, temps, pressures, quantities, etc. Pretty much anything that
's electronically measurable can be expressed as an analog voltage level and
displayed on the screen in whatever format you choose (numbers, bar graph, n
eedle-on-scale). Monitor bus voltage, alternator current, fuel qty, fuel pr
essure, fuel flow, oil temp, oil pressure, manifold pressure, manifold temp,
OAT, EGT, CHT. And so on. Choose any two and put them on a screen.
Consider a DIY, poor man's engine monitor: Use a microcontroller to monitor
and select the highest of four CHTs and highest of four EGTs to send to the
display. Use the display's alarm output to light an LED or put a tone in y
our headset.
Eric
On Jul 8, 2013, at 11:40 AM, Ralph Finch <ralphmariafinch@gmail.com> wrote:
> Even after watching the demo it's unclear to me what this thing is suppose
d to do.
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 9:17 AM, Eric Page <edpav8r@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> http://www.panelpilot.com/
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