---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 07/09/13: 3 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:09 AM - Choosing the switches for an RV-10 (Owen Baker) 2. 05:32 AM - Re: Choosing the switches for an RV-10 (Carlos Trigo) 3. 07:12 AM - Re: Choosing the switches for an RV-10 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:09:34 AM PST US From: "Owen Baker " Subject: AeroElectric-List: Choosing the switches for an RV-10 7/9/2013 Hello Bob Nuckolls, On 7/8/13 you wrote: =9CCan you point me to the discussions about this product? Are reliability issues centered on any one feature of the design?=9D (See posting copied below.) On 8/16/2004 You wrote: =9CHave you considered getting your money back and putting in toggle switches? In my never humble opinion, key-switches suck.=9D (See posting copied below) OC PS: In the interest of brevity I did only one archive search of the aeroelectriclist, using only the search term ACS SWITCH, and selected only one posting of the 16 that showed up. ============= Time: 07:43:03 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Choosing the switches for an RV-10 > > >Given the wiring complexity (confusion) and the >widely published poor reliability of the ACS >combined starter ' magneto switch I am surprised >that any amateur builder would even consider >installing such a switch in the aircraft that he is building. > >OC Can you point me to the discussions about this product? Are reliability issues centered on any one feature of the design? This switch is a clone of the legacy Bendix/Gerdes product popularlized in the single-engine markets waaayyy back when. I think I recall seeing a twin that needed two-keys to go flying. I'm wondering if the problems are not centered on starter contactor currents. The FAA saw fit to mandate adding a diode to the circuit for airplanes that were being upgraded to modern, two-stage solenoid/contactors . . . when in fact, contact opening arcing was just the worst of stress . . . that 30A inrush was still there . . . a stress that the switch was never designed to manage. Bob . . . Match: #3Message: #42083From: Subject: Igntion SwitchesDate: Jul 21, 2008 7/21/2008 Hello Skip, You wrote: "I saw the referenced ACS Keyed Ignition Switches and a starter switch. What is the benefit in two switches over one?" I am glad you asked. The history of these types of ignition switches: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/search/search.php does not fill one with great confidence. See: http://tinyurl.com/j3m5j They are mechanical devices, of not necessarily the highest quality -- sort of like an old time watch -- with a lot of little bits and pieces inside that can get worn / broken. Actually I'd prefer three switches. A simple, reliable, separate toggle switch for each magneto P lead, and a push button switch with a guard on it for activating the starter contact solenoid. See the postings copied below for other's experience with the ACS / Bendix keyed type switches. -------------------------------------------- {#} Replies are directed back to kisbuilders(at)angus.mystery.com {#} To reply to the author, write to Keith.Miller(at)esa.int OC I started with the standard ACS switch , but junked it after it left one of the mags live after switching off , now I also have 3 seperate switches ( 2 "heavy duty" for the mags and a "push to make" type for the starter ). ----------------------------------------------------------- Message: #19408 Date: Aug 16, 2004 From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: ACS switch issues for Rotax 912S > > >Ok, I traced it down to the ACS ignition switch (P/N A-510-2). When I >switch to the left side ("R") it will cut out sometimes. Not very often >but if I do it just right then off she goes. The switch only had been >used about 40 hours when this started showing up. > >It appears that it is grounding, or at least partially grounding, >inadvertently when switched over to that "mag". > >Could it have to do with the diode issue that ACS mentions with regards to >impulse coupled mags? The diode was added to the starter contactor control circuit . . . with totally bogus engineering behind it. See http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/spikecatcher.pdf >FWIW I've wired according to Bob's notes with the shield acting as the >ground. I was very very careful when wiring and so far this is the only >electrical problem I've had. > >I've also wiggled all the wires around behind the switch (and also the >engine) and it doesn't seem to be any of the wires. I'm guessing it's >internal to the switch or something to do with a spike of some sort. > >Any other ideas before I pull the switch out and send it back to ACS? Have you considered getting your money back and putting in toggle switches? In my never humble opinion, key-switches suck. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Skip LaPolice" Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 3:26 PM Subject: Re: AW: Replacing Starter > Hi Owen, > I noticed in your reply to JF regarding an ignition > switch that it is better to have " separate magneto > and starters." Please help my understanding. > I'm building a Pulsar with a 2200 Jabiru and I'm > thinking avionics as I mix epoxy. > I saw the referenced ACS Keyed Ignition Switches > and a starter switch. What is the benefit in two switches > over one? My car has one. > Thanks much! > Be well, > Skip/ End Msg: #3 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:32:31 AM PST US From: "Carlos Trigo" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Choosing the switches for an RV-10 Thank you all for your opinions, I 'm still undecided but I think I will follow the toggle route. Best Carlos ============= Time: 02:38:19 AM PST US From: "Carlos Trigo" < trigo@mail.telepac.pt> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Choosing the switches for an RV-10 Guys It's time to choose the switches for the RV-10 panel, and I wonder which ones are more popular between the RV-10 builders: For the Master and ALT field, have you used the Cessna split rocker or just 2 separate toggle switches? For the magnetos and starter, did everybody use the ACS combined keyed switch, or is it better to use 2 toggles and one push-button momentary starter switch? And for the lights and other electrical equipment, which has been the choice: the classic rocker switches or the color coded toggle switches? Thanks for your opinions, both in the technical and the functional aspects Carlos ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:12:32 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Choosing the switches for an RV-10 At 06:08 AM 7/9/2013, you wrote: >7/9/2013 > >Hello Bob Nuckolls, > >On 7/8/13 you wrote: Can you point me to the >discussions about this product? Are reliability >issues centered on any one feature of the >design? (See posting copied below.) > >On 8/16/2004 You wrote: Have you considered >getting your money back and putting in toggle >switches? In my never humble opinion, >key-switches suck. (See posting copied below) > >OC > Thank you. Yeah, I was aware that we'd thrashed some ACS switch issues here on the List . . . was wondering if you were aware of problems surfacing in other forums. I think my reference to the relative 'suckiness' of key switches was framed in notion that airplanes needed to emulate automobiles, that the switch is big and expensive, and that keys offered any great measure of security. I flew a rental airplane home after having lost the keys. Wiggled the terminals on the back of the switch until they broke off, hand propped the airplane and brought it home. Replaced the terminals when I got back and replaced the key. Other pilots have done the lost-key work-around by breaking the termimals off the back of the mags. It would have been interesting to do a tear-down on the problem switch. I'm thinking that it was an isolated incident and that for the most part the Off-L-R-B-S key switches perform as advertised. I just don't think they're an elegant solution to a simple design problem. Bob . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.