---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 08/02/13: 5 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:18 AM - Re: Heathrow 787 lithium event (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 08:18 AM - Re: Zodiac 601 with Jabiru engine radio noise revisited (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 02:37 PM - Re: Re: Zodiac 601 with Jabiru engine radio noise revisited (Bill Bradburry) 4. 06:07 PM - Re: FAR 23 and airplanes of any stripe (Kyrilian Dyer) 5. 07:37 PM - Re: FAR 23 and airplanes of any stripe (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:18:02 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Heathrow 787 lithium event >Trying to do too much too fast, just like these lithium >batteries. I hope that separator technology is finally able to tame >lithium technology and make it very reliable. Finding the golden separator material would alleviate some reliability issues with the system batteries but it does not address the potential for lapses in quality control. The ELT battery probably didn't fail but was induced to runaway by external shorting . . . which was not held at bay by prudent system integration of the battery. Take a look at http://tinyurl.com/mrbr4ol One of the tests for a cluster of 6, CR-2 batteries blew the lid off a 5-gallon container. The test report didn't hypothesize whether the overpressure was simply due to heating of internal airspace, out-gassing of the runaway cells, or both. If these cells out-gas vigorously, then crafting an enclosure that produces a comfortable FMEA may be completely impractical. This means that the designers have to embrace a combination of reliability study (batteries never spontaneously mis-behave) and ISO-9000 (errors of wiring never get out the door). Given human weakness for faith in assumption and pronouncements by higher authority, there's a risk potential that cannot be quantified. Honeywell may be discovering the effects of this condition as we speak. It's inarguable, the lithium technologies are energetic. I've oft likened lithium batteries on airplanes as similar to considering how to burn nitroglycerine in your engine. The weight and volume to energy ratios are amazing, miles per gallon profound . . . now if we can just figure out how to keep it from blowing up. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:18:31 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Zodiac 601 with Jabiru engine radio noise revisited At 10:23 PM 8/1/2013, you wrote: >Hi Bob and All. > Thanks for all the help Bob, the Zodiac 601 was test flow > today and the Microair radio is working great, no more whine and no > noise! Putting in a forest of tabs got rid of all the crackling > and popping in the receive mode and isolating the jacks and moving > the regulator/rectifier to the positive side of the battery stopped > the alternator whine. The owner is no longer badmouthing Microair. > Thanks again Great! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:37:46 PM PST US From: "Bill Bradburry" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Zodiac 601 with Jabiru engine radio noise revisited Can you explain, "moving the >regulator/rectifier to the positive side of the battery stopped the >alternator whine." a little better? I have a very slight whine in my headset when I turn the alternator on. It is low enough that I can hear it when I turn the alternator on, but not loud enough that I can hear it during flight. It hasn't bothered me, but if it is a simple fix, why not? B2 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Friday, August 02, 2013 11:18 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Zodiac 601 with Jabiru engine radio noise revisited At 10:23 PM 8/1/2013, you wrote: >Hi Bob and All. > Thanks for all the help Bob, the Zodiac 601 was test flow > today and the Microair radio is working great, no more whine and no > noise! Putting in a forest of tabs got rid of all the crackling > and popping in the receive mode and isolating the jacks and moving > the regulator/rectifier to the positive side of the battery stopped > the alternator whine. The owner is no longer badmouthing Microair. > Thanks again Great! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:07:25 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: FAR 23 and airplanes of any stripe From: Kyrilian Dyer John, The FAA publishes a range of Advisory Circulars that provide certification c ompliance guidance. These documents aren't technically regulatory but provi de an official interpretation of and sometimes an historical background to t he regulations. The following 'Systems and Equipment Guide for Certification of Part 23 Airp lanes and Airships' may provide some clarity for your question. http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC%2023-17C.pdf See page 282 - Kyrilian On Jul 31, 2013, at 4:45 PM, "John Loram" wrote: > Where would I find the FAA definition of =9Ccircuit essential to fli ght safety=9D? > > Thanks, -john- > (get=99n close to inspection) > > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelect ric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 8:43 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: FAR 23 and airplanes of any stripe > > > > Sec. 23.1357 Circuit protective devices. > > > (b) A protective device for a circuit essential to flight safety may not b e > used to protect any other circuit. > Bob . . . > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > http://forums.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:37:01 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: FAR 23 and airplanes of any stripe At 08:05 PM 8/2/2013, you wrote: >John, > >The FAA publishes a range of Advisory Circulars that provide >certification compliance guidance. These documents aren't >technically regulatory but provide an official interpretation of and >sometimes an historical background to the regulations. > >The following 'Systems and Equipment Guide for Certification of Part >23 Airplanes and Airships' may provide some clarity for your question. >http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC%2023-17C.pdf >See page 282 On page 282 we read: "After further review, FAA has concluded that the proposal should not be limited to airplanes that operate above 25,000 feet since emergencies resulting in the loss of normal electrical power are critical for all airplanes. Five minutes is considered adequate time to cope with such an emergency so that pilot can operate the airplane safely and assess the reason for the loss of normal electrical power." This seems to have been written by individuals who've never sought the elegant solution to a failure tolerant design, never flown an airplane and been faced with a "five minuted window' considered adequate for a pilot to put on his mechanic's hat and "assess the reason for loss of normal electrical power." Okay, so assume he DOES correctly assess the reason . . . now what? Whip out the toolbox and fix it? Besides, what's 25,000 feet got to do with anything? FMEA considers all anticipated operating conditions from the ground up. This is but one example of many pages of 'advisory floobydust' for which the authors of such documents are famous. After AC43-13 sat stagnant for dozens of years and was being revised some years back. The FAA 'invited' the EAA membership to . . . uh . . . help proofread the document. I wrote about 12 pages of critical review on the electrical section. Similar feedback was offered by others who were highly skilled in their disciplines. AC43-13 went back to the word processor and didn't get released for another year or so . . . for reasons beyond my understanding. If they'd given EAA the thing in Word, we would have had it cleaned up in a few days. The final publication was better but was still sprinkled with technical and practical inaccuracies. Don't know who sat on the various committees tasked with revising these documents but for sure, there were no Bill Lears, Kelly Johnsons, Duane Wallaces, Glen Rawdons, et. als. My advice to any reader suggests that understanding and mitigating the effects for loss of any piece of equipment is stone simple. Just imagine how you're going to get on the ground with that breaker pulled. If you don't like the outcome of the exercise, then fix it. It's not hard. Once it's fixed, then you don't need a 'five minute assessment window' . . . you flip to Plan-B and keep on truck'n and you don't mess with the breaker. Be wary of pronouncements from high places. Our tax dollars pay millions of salaries, benefits and retirement packages for individuals who add no merchantable value to the general welfare of domestic economy. The FAA is no exception to the condition. Here's another example . . . http://tinyurl.com/mn55arc Bob . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.