Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:30 AM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 08/10/13 (Franz Fux)
2. 05:07 AM - Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out (user9253)
3. 07:35 AM - Re: Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 08:17 AM - Re: Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out (Bob McCallum)
5. 08:23 AM - Re: Fw: How to test a battery (Eric M. Jones)
6. 09:29 AM - Re: Re: Fw: How to test a battery (R. curtis)
7. 09:47 AM - Re: Re: Fw: How to test a battery (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 09:53 AM - Re: Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 09:58 AM - Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out (user9253)
10. 11:22 AM - Re: Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out (Paul Kuntz)
11. 04:31 PM - Re: Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out (Richard Girard)
12. 07:59 PM - Re: Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 08/10/13 |
unable to respond to any mail until the 20th of August,
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out |
Since the problem is intermittent, it is more likely caused by a loose connection
rather than bad electronics. Prime suspect is the circuit going to voltage
regulator pin "C", especially the controlling switch (Master ?) and wire terminals.
It would be a worthwhile test to monitor the voltage on pin "C" during alternator
failure.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406432#406432
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out |
At 07:06 AM 8/11/2013, you wrote:
>
>Since the problem is intermittent, it is more likely caused by a
>loose connection rather than bad electronics. Prime suspect is the
>circuit going to voltage regulator pin "C", especially the
>controlling switch (Master ?) and wire terminals.
>It would be a worthwhile test to monitor the voltage on pin "C"
>during alternator failure.
Joe brings up a good point. Intermittent failures
are more likely to be a loose connection as opposed
to a misbehaving piece of electronics. The Ducatti
regulators are potted, mechanically robust.
Doing a study of ship's wiring integrity might save
you from an unnecessary regulator change out.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out |
This is especially true since your observed "full charging voltage" seems to
have always been a tad low. (max 13.9 volts when it would normally be
expected to be 14 or greater)
This may also be indicative of a loose connection creating high resistance
and "fooling" the regulator right from the start. It may have never been
working optimally.
Bob McC.
>
> Joe brings up a good point. Intermittent failures
> are more likely to be a loose connection as opposed
> to a misbehaving piece of electronics. The Ducatti
> regulators are potted, mechanically robust.
> Doing a study of ship's wiring integrity might save
> you from an unnecessary regulator change out.
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Fwd: How to test a battery |
I watched the You Tube and decided to test my own collection of 30 new and partially
used AA batteries from my grandson's toys. I have a first-rate B-K Precision
model 815 test meter (with a AA-cell test scale!) for comparison.
I sorted the batteries by bouncing the negative end on a marble slab. Some batteries
were indeterminate, so it was not a clear choice for all batteries. Nevertheless,
it seemed to make some sensible division.
When the two piles were examined, it was easy to see that many weak or dead AA
batteries did bounce and fell over. Many good ones tended to stay erect and not
fall over. As I mentioned, there were many indeterminate batteries.
Notes: --Trying to Drop the batteries straight down introduces some error.
--Some construction features of the batteries, such as plastic sleeves that were
too long, or details of the end contacts might have caused some problems.
--I used "below 1.4V" as dead. This is arbitrary.
Conclusion: The test is illustrative and interesting but not definitive. My suspicion
is that the stress on the battery increases when the battery gets weak,
due to a slight pressure increase caused by the chemistry products volume. This
is enough to stress the ends and cause it to bounce when dropped on its end,
It might make a good science project. Wiki: Alkaline battery construction.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406441#406441
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Fwd: How to test a battery |
> Conclusion: The test is illustrative and interesting but not definitive.
> My suspicion is that the stress on the battery increases when the battery
> gets weak, due to a slight pressure increase caused by the chemistry
> products volume. This is enough to stress the ends and cause it to bounce
> when dropped on its end,
I am inclined to place this in the catagory of
male bovine excrement!
But that is just one man's opinion.
Roger
Do not archive
--
Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Fwd: How to test a battery |
At 10:22 AM 8/11/2013, you wrote:
I watched the You Tube and decided to test my own collection of 30
new and partially used AA batteries from my grandson's toys. I have a
first-rate B-K Precision model 815 test meter (with a AA-cell test
scale!) for comparison.
I sorted the batteries by bouncing the negative end on a marble slab.
Some batteries were indeterminate, so it was not a clear choice for
all batteries. Nevertheless, it seemed to make some sensible division.
When the two piles were examined, it was easy to see that many weak
or dead AA batteries did bounce and fell over. Many good ones tended
to stay erect and not fall over. As I mentioned, there were many
indeterminate batteries.
Notes: --Trying to Drop the batteries straight down introduces some error.
--Some construction features of the batteries, such as plastic
sleeves that were too long, or details of the end contacts might have
caused some problems.
Good data
--I used "below 1.4V" as dead. This is arbitrary.
Will make note of that in my attempts to
repeat the experiment . . . I think the 'dead'
one in the video measured 1.2v
Conclusion: The test is illustrative and interesting but not
definitive. My suspicion is that the stress on the battery increases
when the battery gets weak, due to a slight pressure increase caused
by the chemistry products volume. This is enough to stress the ends
and cause it to bounce when dropped on its end,
Interesting hypothesis
It might make a good science project. Wiki: Alkaline battery construction.
Agreed . . . more tests are needed . . .
I'll gather up some test subjects and
see if my grandsons are interested in
doing/observing the experiment.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out |
At 10:16 AM 8/11/2013, you wrote:
><robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca>
>
>This is especially true since your observed "full charging voltage" seems to
>have always been a tad low. (max 13.9 volts when it would normally be
>expected to be 14 or greater)
My recollection is that this series of regulators
tend to run low in the spectrum of battery recharge
protocols. My hypothesis is that the regulator is
intended for use on consumer tools like garden tractors,
machines that get used frequently in-season if not all
year long. Consumers are not looking for optimum
performance of a battery as an energy source, only
long service life for engine cranking. So the low-end
design point would tend toward that goal.
Adding a voltage adjust pot would be pretty cool,
but fraught with risk in the hands of the weekend,
shade tree mechanic . . . so I think the Ducatti
regulators are what they are for well considered
reasons.
Selection of this regulator by Rotax for use on an
aircraft may be not so well reasoned.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out |
My Rotax voltage regulator also puts out 13.8 volts. And so do others according
to RV-12 owners that I have talked with. The Rotax engine starts so quickly,
usually within a couple of seconds, that the battery is never discharged. Most
of the time the regulator only needs to maintain the battery, not recharge
it.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406451#406451
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out |
Yes, others have mentioned the possibility of a poor connection somewhere.
I'll check for that first.
Thanks,
Paul Kuntz
On Sun, Aug 11, 2013 at 5:06 AM, user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Since the problem is intermittent, it is more likely caused by a loose
> connection rather than bad electronics. Prime suspect is the circuit going
> to voltage regulator pin "C", especially the controlling switch (Master ?)
> and wire terminals.
> It would be a worthwhile test to monitor the voltage on pin "C" during
> alternator failure.
> Joe
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406432#406432
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out |
Bob, Or it may be that Ducati has a little of the Lucas bloodline.
Let me tell you about my experience with another Ducati product used by
Rotax. The ignition module used from approx 2005 until 2011, Rotax p/n
966726. It has a known failure in which it just stops firing at engine
cranking speeds, but will fire at some elevated rpm. Once it is made to
fire the module often resumes working properly for the rest of that day but
when it is allowed to rest for a few days it resumes the high rpm firing.
Case in point, a customers engine of that vintage that refused to start. We
had already corrected a series of carburetor and fuel system issues and the
engine still refused to start. I eliminated every possibility of ignition
modules being grounded out, then removed them and contacted Lockwood
Aviation. The customer sent the modules in and sure enough, on Lockwoods
test stand they would not fire below 2000 rpm. Once that was reached the
modules worked correctly then failed again in later tests.
Rotax is offering owners of these modules a reduced price on the latest
version, p/n 966727. This new module also offers a 'soft start' capability
with a timed ignition retard to help the higher compression 912 ULS and S
models start easier.
Rick Girard
On Sun, Aug 11, 2013 at 11:52 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com**>
>
> At 10:16 AM 8/11/2013, you wrote:
>
>> robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca**>
>>
>> This is especially true since your observed "full charging voltage" seems
>> to
>> have always been a tad low. (max 13.9 volts when it would normally be
>> expected to be 14 or greater)
>>
>
> My recollection is that this series of regulators
> tend to run low in the spectrum of battery recharge
> protocols. My hypothesis is that the regulator is
> intended for use on consumer tools like garden tractors,
> machines that get used frequently in-season if not all
> year long. Consumers are not looking for optimum
> performance of a battery as an energy source, only
> long service life for engine cranking. So the low-end
> design point would tend toward that goal.
>
> Adding a voltage adjust pot would be pretty cool,
> but fraught with risk in the hands of the weekend,
> shade tree mechanic . . . so I think the Ducatti
> regulators are what they are for well considered
> reasons.
>
> Selection of this regulator by Rotax for use on an
> aircraft may be not so well reasoned.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ------------------------------**---------
> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
> ( appearance of being right . . . )
> ( )
> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
> ------------------------------**---------
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 UL alternator drop-out |
At 06:29 PM 8/11/2013, you wrote:
>Bob, Or it may be that Ducati has a little of the Lucas bloodline.
>Let me tell you about my experience with another Ducati product used
>by Rotax. The ignition module used from approx 2005 until 2011,
>Rotax p/n 966726. It has a known failure in which it just stops
>firing at engine cranking speeds, but will fire at some elevated
>rpm. Once it is made to fire the module often resumes working
>properly for the rest of that day but when it is allowed to rest for
>a few days it resumes the high rpm firing. Case in point, a
>customers engine of that vintage that refused to start. We had
>already corrected a series of carburetor and fuel system issues and
>the engine still refused to start. I eliminated every possibility of
>ignition modules being grounded out, then removed them and contacted
>Lockwood Aviation. The customer sent the modules in and sure enough,
>on Lockwoods test stand they would not fire below 2000 rpm. Once
>that was reached the modules worked correctly then failed again in later tests.
>Rotax is offering owners of these modules a reduced price on the
>latest version, p/n 966727. This new module also offers a 'soft
>start' capability with a timed ignition retard to help the higher
>compression 912 ULS and S models start easier.
>
>Rick Girard
Interesting. I'm a little mystified by such stories.
Seems to me robust electronics really isn't a difficult
thing to do once you've set up design goals, written
a test plan for performance issues critical to
intended operation and then test and deliver to
those issues.
It's a cut-n-dried process; second nature for
me and most of the electron-herders I've
worked with. The fact that Rotax continues to ship
a marginally adequate rectifier/regulator is also
a puzzlement. I had a conversation with a system
integrator a few weeks ago wherein he was wrestling
with a constellation of noise generating components
supplied with a new, fuel injected Rotax. The engine's
fundamentals seem sound and of good value, yet the
company persists in artificially crippling a good
product with flaky accessories.
It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall in
some of their customer relations meetings that deal
with reported field problems. I guess that presupposes
that such meetings are even held.
It would be VERY interesting to see a schematic
and bill of materials for the problematic ignition
module . . . and know how the design was changed
to correct the problem! But it sounds like the
recommended replacement wasn't a corrected design
but a product with new features . . . while being
free of the low rpm problems of the previous
design. We'll never know . . .
Bob . . .
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