Today's Message Index:
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1. 06:12 AM - Re: Alternator Putting out Max Current (ChangDriver)
2. 06:41 AM - Re: Alternator Putting out Max Current (user9253)
3. 08:22 AM - Re: Re: Alternator Putting out Max Current (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 12:18 PM - Over Voltage on Start Up (dbarnes)
5. 01:25 PM - Re: Re: AFR Meter (Ken)
6. 01:59 PM - Re: Over Voltage on Start Up (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 11:01 PM - Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
8. 11:04 PM - Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Putting out Max Current |
Bob:
Well I went thru the B&C troubleshooting guide and the entire system checked out.
I then thought thru how a charging system works and that since the bus voltage
was being held at 28.8 volts (the B&C setpoint) that it had to be something
else. While the batteries were new, that does not mean fully charged.
So, I ran the engine at 1200 rpm which was 12 amps of output. Ran it for 15 minutes
and watched the output drop to 9 amps. This confirmed it had to be the
batteries (all radios, etc off). I then ran the engine to max RPM and 24 amps
was max seen. So I went and flew it for an hour and it now indicates 8 amps
with radios on, etc.
SO, the moral of the story was that new batteries did not imply fully charged batteries
(I have 2 12V SLA batteries in series to make a 24 VDC system).
Thanks for the advice!!
Craig
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407842#407842
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Putting out Max Current |
How do you know that the ammeter is telling the truth?
Has the ammeter worked in the past?
What type of ammeter is it?
Is there a shunt or hall effect sensor?
28.8 volts x 35 amps = 1008 watts. That is a lot of heat going somewhere. If
the heat is going into the battery, it should be too hot to touch. If not the
battery, then something in the airplane is getting very warm.
Have you tried shutting off loads to see if one is drawing too much current?
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407845#407845
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Putting out Max Current |
At 08:11 AM 9/1/2013, you wrote:
Bob:
Well I went thru the B&C troubleshooting guide and the entire system
checked out. I then thought thru how a charging system works and
that since the bus voltage was being held at 28.8 volts (the B&C
setpoint) that it had to be something else. While the batteries were
new, that does not mean fully charged.
So, I ran the engine at 1200 rpm which was 12 amps of output. Ran it
for 15 minutes and watched the output drop to 9 amps. This confirmed
it had to be the batteries (all radios, etc off). I then ran the
engine to max RPM and 24 amps was max seen. So I went and flew it
for an hour and it now indicates 8 amps with radios on, etc.
SO, the moral of the story was that new batteries did not imply fully
charged batteries (I have 2 12V SLA batteries in series to make a 24
VDC system).
Thanks for the advice!!
What you have observed is a demonstration of the idea
that the regulator's primary function is to take care
of the battery . . . and the battery is a bucket for
the storage of watt-seconds of energy. A NEW battery
can be in a discharged state and present a significant
opportunity for the regulator/alternator team to square
off and break a sweat while topping off the bucket.
Had a roofer in my driveway in Wichita a few weeks ago
cursing his battery after his pickup wouldn't start.
The battery's installation date WAS several years back
so there was no reason to discount the possibility that
the battery was bad.
I put a charger on it and put 20+ amps in to the battery
. . . the terminal voltage didn't even get to 14.0
volts at 20A charge rate . . . a very good sign. A soggy
battery's terminal voltage will pop right up and acceptance
current will rapidly decline.
After 15 minutes, I load tested the battery and it
readily delivered 300+ amps for 10 seconds while
loaded down to 9v. I.e. the battery was healthy,
just depleted. We started the truck and the battery's
terminal voltage stayed down around 12.2 volts . . .
i.e. the alternator was not coming on line. If the
alternator HAD come on line, the terminal voltage
would have almost immediately risen to 14+ volts.
Had the alternator been fitted with an ammeter,
it might have 'pegged' at the name-plate rating
for the alternator until the battery had accepted
a substantial replenishment whereupon the current
would begin to taper off.
What you witnessed was the good and proper operation
of your ship's electrical system.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Over Voltage on Start Up |
I have 40 hours on my lancair es and have been trying to solve a charging problem
since the first startup in july. I have a vertical power electrical system
(vp-200), a b&c voltage regulator (lr3c) and an io-550n with a stock 60 amp alternator.
Five seconds after engine start vertical power switches power on to
the voltage regulator. The alternator comes on and vertical power senses an
overvoltage and disconnects the power to the regulator. After resetting the
vertical power sometimes two or three times over a 30 second time period the system
holds and remains fine for the balance of the flight.
I replaced the voltage regulator with an identical replacement with no change.
Another clue is that when the system first starts holding in the voltage is on
the high side close to 31 volts. Over time maybe ten minutes it settles down
to 28.6 for the remaining flight. I also hear a faint alternator squeal in my
headset. I am using two odyssey pc535 12 volt batteries in series and they
are at the rear of the plane connected with #2 welding cable
The odyssey batteries are four years old but have been kept charged with a smart
charger. I wondered whether a bad diode in the alternator could cause this?
Anyone have any ideas?
Thanks,
Dan Barnes
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407863#407863
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I'd suggest that the life of the O2 sensor is indeed significantly
shortened running on leaded fuel. Also significantly shortened if it
runs too hot such as installed in the automotive location and subjected
to continuous relatively high power aircraft operation. Shielding them
helps.
The classic narrow band sensor could be thought of as almost a
stoichometric switch outputting between 0 and 1 volt. Easilly seen with
a Digital Volt Meter. Useful for setting a 14.7:1 gasolene stoichometric
mixture to keep a catalytic converter happy or for indicating which side
of stoichometric any engine is running at.
The modern Air Fuel Ratio sensor (wide band sensor) will give the actual
mixture but these require somewhat sophisticated electronic control and
signal conditioning. Prices have come down to as low as a couple of
hundred dollars but these are definitely not the cheap under $100. bar
graph displays driven by a LM3914 chip that one sees advertised.
Both types of sensors have been used in OBAM aircraft. Useful for tuning
but I consider them unsuitable to run continuously on avgas even when
using a lead scavenger such as Decalin.
Ken
On 30/08/2013 7:39 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 12:31 PM 8/30/2013, you wrote:
>> I suppose I should know about them, but I'm not familiar with
>> measuring the air-fuel ratio. The technique is apparently used with
>> automotive racing engines to fine tune the air fuel mixture to
>> optimize power output.
>> Does anyone know if that concept and equipment has been applied to an
>> OBAM aircraft?
>> It sounds like an interesting and plausible concept.
>> Stan Sutterfield
>> Reno Race 84
>
> An engine guru explained the O2 sensor to me
> at OSH a few years back. It response to the
> presence of any oxygen in the exhaust gas stream
> and unless fitted with an electrical heater,
> doesn't give out useful information until it's
> warmed up by the exhaust.
>
> The output voltage is a function of oxygen
> concentration . . . so any mixture running
> lean will use up all the fuel with oxygen
> left over . . . hence some voltage will
> be generated. Stoichiometric mixture will
> produce zero volts . . . mixture richer
> than stoichiometric will also produce zero
> volts.
>
> These sensors have been used on OBAM aircraft
> for many years. Contrary to popular myth, leaded
> fuel doesn't seem to 'clog them up' . . . I've
> met two pilots flying them in 100LL fueled aircraft
> with useful performance. In both cases, adjusting
> mixture for xx.x millivolts on a display produced
> an accurate and repeatable setting of 'xx degress
> lean of peak' . . .
>
> The agile fuel injection computer can be fitted
> with mathematical smarts to extrapolate injector
> timing for performance goals on the rich side of
> stoichiometric.
>
> The output voltage is, as I recall, small . . .
> tens of millivolts. Useful application usually
> calls for some active signal conditioning
> for presentation on a display.
>
> The short answer is, "Yes, an automotive O2
> sensor can be a significant component of your
> operating design goals.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Over Voltage on Start Up |
I have 40 hours on my lancair es and have been trying to solve a
charging problem since the first startup in july. I have a vertical
power electrical system (vp-200), a b&c voltage regulator (lr3c) and
an io-550n with a stock 60 amp alternator. Five seconds after engine
start vertical power switches power on to the voltage regulator. The
alternator comes on and vertical power senses an overvoltage and
disconnects the power to the regulator. After resetting the vertical
power sometimes two or three times over a 30 second time period the
system holds and remains fine for the balance of the flight.
I replaced the voltage regulator with an identical replacement with
no change. Another clue is that when the system first starts holding
in the voltage is on the high side close to 31 volts.
There's something fundamentally wrong here. The voltage
should NEVER be higher than the regulator's set-point.
Readings of 31 volts suggests that the regulator is not
getting 'real' bus voltage sample which is critical to
proper operation.
Attach a (+) lead of a voltmeter to the regulator's bus
voltage sense terminal (#3) and the (-) lead to regulator
ground terminal (#7). Tell us what you read when the
VP screen is reporting 31 volts. It sounds like the
regulator 'believes' it's doing a good thing while in
fact, the data it's operating on is bogus.
How is the regulator grounded?
Where does terminal (#3) get it's power?
Over time maybe ten minutes it settles down to 28.6 for the
remaining flight. I also hear a faint alternator squeal in
my headset. I am using two odyssey pc535 12 volt batteries in
series and they are at the rear of the plane connected with #2 welding cable
This has the 'smell' of a grounding issue where battery
recharge currents are polluting the regulator's ground
reference causing it to operate at something other than the
set-point.
Try dismounting the regulator, disconnect existing wire
from terminal #7 and run a test wire from #7 to the
crankcase. I'm thinking that you may see the ov
condition disappear. Can you describe your ground system
for us?
Bob . . .
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| Subject: | Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) |
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I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
are comfortable.
I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated
by companies that are themselves List members.
Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server
system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many
many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the
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Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
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value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude.
Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just
subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in.
The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are
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If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
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Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
AeroElectric-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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| Subject: | Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
AeroElectric-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
AeroElectric-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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