Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:41 AM - Re: ROTAX 912ULS ALT flicker..... Help?! (SIDESLIP)
2. 04:33 AM - Re: Re: ROTAX 912ULS ALT flicker..... Help?! (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 07:35 AM - Re: De-Slumpifier, Voltage Buffer to Prevent Brownout (user9253)
4. 07:36 AM - Re: Dual voltage output from fuel quantity senders (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 07:37 AM - Re: Re: De-Slumpifier, Voltage Buffer to Prevent Brownout (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 08:06 AM - Electric System architecture (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 08:11 AM - Re: Charging the Aux Battery (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 08:11 AM - Re: Dual voltage output from fuel quantity senders (Bill Putney)
9. 08:44 AM - Re: Re: Electric System architecture (Carlos Trigo)
10. 09:00 AM - Re: Charging the Aux Battery (Carlos Trigo)
11. 09:18 AM - FW: VP-X Pro manual (Carlos Trigo)
12. 09:58 AM - Re: Multiplexing 7-segment LED displays (TravisBryant)
13. 10:52 AM - Re: ROTAX 912ULS ALT flicker..... Help?! (Eric M. Jones)
14. 11:13 AM - Re: Dual voltage output from fuel quantity senders (Eric M. Jones)
15. 12:43 PM - Re: Re: Dual voltage output from fuel quantity senders (Peter Pengilly)
16. 02:51 PM - Re: FW: VP-X Pro manual (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
17. 04:01 PM - Re: FW: VP-X Pro manual (Peter Pengilly)
18. 10:56 PM - test (Fred Klein)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: ROTAX 912ULS ALT flicker..... Help?! |
Thanks Bob! How do I go about getting one from Eric Jones?
Chad
--------
C-GYXQ. 912ULS. 601XL-B
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409818#409818
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| Subject: | Re: ROTAX 912ULS ALT flicker..... Help?! |
At 04:40 AM 10/4/2013, you wrote:
>
>Thanks Bob! How do I go about getting one from Eric Jones?
>
>Chad
See http://tinyurl.com/ngumthf
Bob . . .
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| Subject: | Re: De-Slumpifier, Voltage Buffer to Prevent Brownout |
Eric sent me his prototype DeSlumpifier for testing on my RV-12. Prior to intalling
it, I cranked the engine a few times with the ignition switches shut off.
With no internal backup battery, the D-180 re-booted each time the engine was
cranked. Next I installed the DeSlumpifier in series with pin 1 of the Dynon
D-180 (Master Power). During engine cranking, the D-180 did not re-boot.
It continued to operate normally. I repeated the test several times, cranking
the engine for two seconds, waiting for 10 seconds, then repeating. In each
case, the D-180 continued to operate without re-booting. Next on the agenda is
actual starting of the engine and flight testing.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409833#409833
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| Subject: | Re: Dual voltage output from fuel quantity senders |
At 03:26 PM 10/3/2013, you wrote:
><peter@sportingaero.com>
>
>I have 2 fuel gauges in my airplane that work on 12v and 5v, and
>only one (resistance type) sender. I am trying to figure out how to
>get both gauges to work and be accurate. The 12v gauge is a straight
>analogue device with a pointer. The 5v gauge is part of an EFIS. At
>present I am using the analogue gauge only and the EFIS is
>continually upset at having no fuel quantity input.
>
>I have looked into a solution using an Arduino, sampling the data in
>doesn't seem to be too difficult, using the analogue input and a
>voltage divider circuit to drop the input voltage. I think I can get
>the Arduino to drive something like a MCP41100 8 bit dual digital
>potentiometer as an output device, with the 2 channels one for each
>of the 12v & 5v circuits. However these devices work at 5v and low current.
>
>So my question to the smart people here is how to I use the output
>of these digipots to look to the gauges as though they are a 30-240
>ohm fuel quantity sender?
Assumptions:
The input to your EFIS is 0-5 volts, high
impedance with zero volts = zero fuel.
The 30-240 ohm sender is minimum resistance
at full fuel.
The characteristics of your steam gauge are
unknown but it's certain that the gauge is not
a 'sensitive' voltmeter (i.e. movement that
reads micro-amps). You need to hook it up
on the bench like this and take some measurements:
Emacs!
Make a chart of instrument current draw,
S-terminal voltage, and 'Sender' resistance
for zero fuel, 1/4 fuel, 1/2 fuel, 3/4 fuel,
and full fuel.
I'm pretty sure you can do all that needs to
be done with analog components (op amps etc)
but we first need to characterize the steam
guage . . . this is a bit like the game where
somebody hands you a little box with 2 or more
terminals on it. You get to 'probe' the box
by measuring at the external terminals. The
challenge is to describe what's inside the
box.
This task is a little simpler, we only need
to know the DC characteristics of the guage
for indications it THINKS are coming from
the companion sensor end the tank. Yeah,
that 10v supply is on purpose, we'll endeavor
to regulate power to the guage for better
prediction of the design.
In fact, do the experiment twice, the second
time with say 8 volts applied to the guage
and see what those numbers are too.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: De-Slumpifier, Voltage Buffer to Prevent |
Brownout
At 09:34 AM 10/4/2013, you wrote:
>
>Eric sent me his prototype DeSlumpifier for testing on my
>RV-12. Prior to intalling it, I cranked the engine a few times with
>the ignition switches shut off. With no internal backup battery,
>the D-180 re-booted each time the engine was cranked. Next I
>installed the DeSlumpifier in series with pin 1 of the Dynon D-180
>(Master Power). During engine cranking, the D-180 did not
>re-boot. It continued to operate normally. I repeated the test
>several times, cranking the engine for two seconds, waiting for 10
>seconds, then repeating. In each case, the D-180 continued to
>operate without re-booting. Next on the agenda is actual starting
>of the engine and flight testing.
>Joe
>
>--------
>Joe Gores
>
Good data sir. Thanks!
Did you sent me the DC/DC
converter you tried the first
time?
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Electric System architecture |
At 03:34 PM 10/3/2013, you wrote:
>Bob & Carlos,
>
>What a great, and insightful, exchange of information and facts.
>Clear, concise, and easily readable.
Since Carlos has a Vertical Power product in his
airplane, this won't be a design study starting
from a clean piece of paper but discussions for
integrating accessories around the Vertical Power
architecture can still be shared.
I'm contemplating an article for KitPlanes that
will describe the clean piece of paper approach
to system architecture in an OBAM aircraft.
This is a pretty strange idea for most pilots.
The vast majority of OBAM aircraft emulate the
architectures of TC aircraft. At the same time,
TC aircraft are very cookie-cutter like in their
design and manufacture.
It's a whole new idea to flip through the z-figures
(or a Vertical Power catalog) and contemplate the
opportunities traded off with personal design goals.
Too many builders have their battery, alternator and
switches already attached to the airplane before
they get serious about how they'll all work with
each other to meet design goals not yet formalized.
Getting the cart so far in front of the horse
is not a high risk activity but it does limit
opportunities to have a system that the builder
understands because it's designed it to a goal
as opposed to a collection of cherry-picked ideas
thrown into a basket before the best possible
recipe for success is discovered.
I'll try to bring some of the thought processes
proven useful in TC aviation for decades to what
has become the real leading edge in light aircraft
design and fabrication. The ideal evolution of
a project has the recipe 98% defined before
the first hole is drilled.
Not a really big deal . . . most electrical bad days
in the cockpit are the product of poor craftsmanship
and/or maintenance as opposed to selection of
components and architecture. Very rarely do we
hear of an instance where architecture was the
driving force for a bad day in the airplane.
I'm still waiting for permission to share the
data from one such case that is now settled.
The folks who paid my exorbitant fees to
analyze the event own the work product.
I hope to have some videos and other documents
to share.
In any event, one does not have to 'bake somebody
else's cookies' to avoid serious error. That's what
we do here on the List. Carlos is putting the
frosting and chocolate sprinkles on a recipe
with a proven track record so our imaginings are
already bounded . . . and that's okay.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Charging the Aux Battery |
At 01:46 PM 9/29/2013, you wrote:
>
>Bob and all
>
>This is probably a dumb question but I will make it anyway.
>In a Dual battery electric system architecture, like Z-14 for
>example, the Aux Battery will not be charging in flight unless the
>aux batt. Switch is flipped On (thus closing the Aux Batt contactor), right?
Carlos,
Now that the edges of the sandbox have
been discovered, how do you envision that
a second battery would be integrated into
a V-P system and how would it fit into
your plans for dealing with failure?
Are you considering a second alternator
of ANY size on the vacuum pump pad?
As I recall, V-P attends to second alternator
and/or battery . . . does their installation
literature speak to these options?
Bob . . .
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Dual voltage output from fuel quantity senders |
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| Subject: | RE: Electric System architecture |
Bob
Please don't be demotivated by the VP-X word...
That box is not much more than an encapsulated Buss, with some electronic
features allowing things to be seen in a screen (instead of V & A indicators
and a bunch of colored lights of an annunciator panel) .. :-)
I still have to decide about the architecture ... batteries, alternators,
power source ... protection
Carlos
-----Mensagem original-----
De: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] Em nome de Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Enviada: 3 de outubro de 2013 21:22
Para: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Assunto: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Electric System architecture (was
Charging the Aux Battery)
--> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
>
> Do any of these accessories feature built in
> back up batteries and/or connections brought
> out for dual power sourcing?
>Yes, the EFIS will be dual power sourcing.
>I am using a VP-X Pro box.
Oopa . . . okay, there's not much I can do for
you in terms of architecture . . . that's pretty
much carved in stone.
We can certainly continue to discuss application
and suitability of various parts, but I'm not
sure there's much I can contribute for architecture
decisions that are not pre-determined out of the
box.
Bob . . .
Message 10
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| Subject: | Charging the Aux Battery |
Please see answers below
-----Mensagem original-----
De: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] Em nome de Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Enviada: 4 de outubro de 2013 16:11
Para: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Assunto: Re: AeroElectric-List: Charging the Aux Battery
--> < <mailto:nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
At 01:46 PM 9/29/2013, you wrote:
>--> < <mailto:trigo@mail.telepac.pt> trigo@mail.telepac.pt>
>
>Bob and all
>
>This is probably a dumb question but I will make it anyway.
>In a Dual battery electric system architecture, like Z-14 for example,
>the Aux Battery will not be charging in flight unless the aux batt.
>Switch is flipped On (thus closing the Aux Batt contactor), right?
Carlos,
Now that the edges of the sandbox have
been discovered, how do you envision that
a second battery would be integrated into
a V-P system and how would it fit into
your plans for dealing with failure?
There are several objectives I am trying to reach with the decision of
including a second battery:
(I mean objectives directly related with electric features, because there
are the side consequences in weight - bad for the Total weight of the bird,
but perhaps good for the W & B calculations when travelling alone.)
- Spare juice for the starter cranking power
- Back-up power for the VP-X box and features
- Back-up power for the EFIS and radio
- Back-up power for the fuel pump
-
Are you considering a second alternator
of ANY size on the vacuum pump pad?
I am considering an SD-8 or an SD-20, but I am not sure it will be overkill
to have 2 batteries and 2 alternators (even considering the big bunch of
electron consumers aboard the modern OBAM aircraft.)
As I recall, V-P attends to second alternator
and/or battery . . . does their installation
literature speak to these options?
Yes it does. I am at my job place right now, and the manual is at home, but
I will try to find it online and copy paste the competent pages
Regards
Carlos
Message 11
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Here
You can find the VP-X Pro installation and operation manual here
http://verticalpower.com/docs/Install_Ops_Manual_VP-X_P_S.pdf
Information about the Dual Buss feature, but only with one energy source, is
on pages 9 and 10 - paragraph 4.4
Information about using a 2nd alternator is on page 28 - paragraphs 5.9c and
5.9d
Information about wiring back-up circuits is on pages 43 to 46 - paragraph
5.24 and 5.24a through 5.24e
Information about using a 2nd battery is on pages 47 to 49 - paragraphs 5.26
and 5.27
Hope this helps
Carlos
De: Carlos Trigo [mailto:trigo@mail.telepac.pt]
Enviada: 4 de outubro de 2013 17:03
Para: 'aeroelectric-list@matronics.com'
Assunto: RE: AeroElectric-List: Charging the Aux Battery
Please see answers below
-----Mensagem original-----
De: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com>
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] Em nome de Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Enviada: 4 de outubro de 2013 16:11
Para: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
<mailto:aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
Assunto: Re: AeroElectric-List: Charging the Aux Battery
--> < <mailto:nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
At 01:46 PM 9/29/2013, you wrote:
>--> < <mailto:trigo@mail.telepac.pt> trigo@mail.telepac.pt>
>
>Bob and all
>
>This is probably a dumb question but I will make it anyway.
>In a Dual battery electric system architecture, like Z-14 for example,
>the Aux Battery will not be charging in flight unless the aux batt.
>Switch is flipped On (thus closing the Aux Batt contactor), right?
Carlos,
Now that the edges of the sandbox have
been discovered, how do you envision that
a second battery would be integrated into
a V-P system and how would it fit into
your plans for dealing with failure?
There are several objectives I am trying to reach with the decision of
including a second battery:
(I mean objectives directly related with electric features, because there
are the side consequences in weight - bad for the Total weight of the bird,
but perhaps good for the W & B calculations when travelling alone.)
- Spare juice for the starter cranking power
- Back-up power for the VP-X box and features
- Back-up power for the EFIS and radio
- Back-up power for the fuel pump
-
Are you considering a second alternator
of ANY size on the vacuum pump pad?
I am considering an SD-8 or an SD-20, but I am not sure it will be overkill
to have 2 batteries and 2 alternators (even considering the big bunch of
electron consumers aboard the modern OBAM aircraft.)
As I recall, V-P attends to second alternator
and/or battery . . . does their installation
literature speak to these options?
Yes it does. I am at my job place right now, and the manual is at home, but
I will try to find it online and copy paste the competent pages
Regards
Carlos
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Multiplexing 7-segment LED displays |
[quote="james(at)etravel.org"]I'm wondering if anyone can answer this question:
I'd like to build a new fuel gauge based around 7-segment LED displays, driven
by a PIC / Arduino, etc. Instead of running dozens of IO lines, I'd like to multiplex
the displays so that the total number of lines is 7 + (no. of digits).
The idea would be to switch on a common line for each digit in turn, and set the
state for the seven segment lines for the digit that's currently lit.
I hope that makes sense.
Anyway, I'm sure the software will be straightforward enough (he says!) but it's
the circuitry with which I need some help. Can anyone recommend a few components
to drive the LED displays from the PIC, along with a circuit diagram? I
have a bunch of resistors and general purpose transistors in my electronics kit.
I'd probably test this on a PIC18F4680, because I have a neat little prototype
board with this particular chip, along with HDSP-315E 7-segment digits, which
is acommon anode type.
Happy to share my findings with anyone who's interested!
Many thanks,
James
> [b]
Very interesting information.. Can you share more details about the project as
I would like to work on it
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409851#409851
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| Subject: | Re: ROTAX 912ULS ALT flicker..... Help?! |
Newer alternators probably have electronics that illuminate a red LED to warn of
low voltage. But for almost a century the low voltage lamp was a little incandescent
lamp. Swapping it with an LED is not stone simple, since the internal
regulator might depend on the characteristics of the incandescent lamp.
So here is an LED that "looks like" an incandescent lamp. Attached.
http://www.jimcotest.com/docs/JIMCO%20Alternator%20Test%20Lead%20Picture%20Guide.pdf
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409855#409855
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/alternator_led_170.pdf
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| Subject: | Re: Dual voltage output from fuel quantity senders |
> I have 2 fuel gauges in my airplane that work on 12v and 5v, and only
> one (resistance type) sender. I am trying to figure out how to get both
> gauges to work and be accurate. The 12v gauge is a straight analogue
> device with a pointer. The 5v gauge is part of an EFIS. At present I am
> using the analogue gauge only and the EFIS is continually upset at
> having no fuel quantity input.
>
> I have looked into a solution using an Arduino, sampling the data in
> doesn't seem to be too difficult, using the analogue input and a voltage
> divider circuit to drop the input voltage. I think I can get the Arduino
> to drive something like a MCP41100 8 bit dual digital potentiometer as
> an output device, with the 2 channels one for each of the 12v & 5v
> circuits. However these devices work at 5v and low current.
>
> So my question to the smart people here is how to I use the output of
> these digipots to look to the gauges as though they are a 30-240 ohm
> fuel quantity sender?
>
> Regards, Peter
> sampling the data in doesn't seem to be too difficult, using the analogue input
and a voltage divider circuit to drop the input voltage
So Peter, why not run that output into the Efis? Or if this won't do, then reduce
the 12V ratiometric voltage with an op amp. I think your approach is getting
way too complicated to start adding an Arduino.
What am I missing?
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409857#409857
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| Subject: | Re: Dual voltage output from fuel quantity senders |
> So Peter, why not run that output into the Efis? Or if this won't do,
then reduce the 12V ratiometric voltage with an op amp. I think your
approach is getting way too complicated to start adding an Arduino. What
am I missing?
Perhaps nothing!! I just don't know very much about analogue
electronics. If I could avoid the Arduino that would be great. I will
find out about what the EFIS is expecting and try to characterise the
steam gauge as Bob suggested. It may take a few days, but thanks both
for the pointers.
Peter
On 04/10/2013 19:13, Eric M. Jones wrote:
>
>
>> I have 2 fuel gauges in my airplane that work on 12v and 5v, and only
>> one (resistance type) sender. I am trying to figure out how to get both
>> gauges to work and be accurate. The 12v gauge is a straight analogue
>> device with a pointer. The 5v gauge is part of an EFIS. At present I am
>> using the analogue gauge only and the EFIS is continually upset at
>> having no fuel quantity input.
>>
>> I have looked into a solution using an Arduino, sampling the data in
>> doesn't seem to be too difficult, using the analogue input and a voltage
>> divider circuit to drop the input voltage. I think I can get the Arduino
>> to drive something like a MCP41100 8 bit dual digital potentiometer as
>> an output device, with the 2 channels one for each of the 12v & 5v
>> circuits. However these devices work at 5v and low current.
>>
>> So my question to the smart people here is how to I use the output of
>> these digipots to look to the gauges as though they are a 30-240 ohm
>> fuel quantity sender?
>>
>> Regards, Peter
>
>
>> sampling the data in doesn't seem to be too difficult, using the analogue input
and a voltage divider circuit to drop the input voltage
>
> So Peter, why not run that output into the Efis? Or if this won't do, then reduce
the 12V ratiometric voltage with an op amp. I think your approach is getting
way too complicated to start adding an Arduino.
>
> What am I missing?
>
> --------
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
> 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge, MA 01550
> (508) 764-2072
> emjones(at)charter.net
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409857#409857
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: VP-X Pro manual |
At 11:21 AM 10/4/2013, you wrote:
>Here
>
>You can find the VP-X Pro installation and operation manual here
>
><http://verticalpower.com/docs/Install_Ops_Manual_VP-X_P_S.pdf>http://verti
calpower.com/docs/Install_Ops_Manual_VP-X_P_S.pdf
>
>Information about the Dual Buss feature, but
>only with one energy source, is on pages 9 and 10 ' paragraph 4.4
>Information about using a 2nd alternator is on
>page 28 ' paragraphs 5.9c and 5.9d
>Information about wiring back-up circuits is on
>pages 43 to 46 ' paragraph 5.24 and 5.24a through 5.24e
>Information about using a 2nd battery is on
>pages 47 to 49 ' paragraphs 5.26 and 5.27
>
>Hope this helps
I'll need to sit down with a brew and pray over
this for a bit . . .
Bob . . .
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| Subject: | Re: VP-X Pro manual |
I have two problems with devices such as the VP-X. One of the basic
tenents it is designed around is that electrics are difficult, and so
its worth paying $$$ for a box to do the job. We know that is not true,
but if it were, I don't think the box is smart enough. Second, you are
required to hand over pretty much all control of the system to a
software intensive box where the manufacturer is reluctant to disclose
the standards to which the hardware and software are designed and tested
- which to me is not a great idea. It is marketed very well, but I'm not
at all sure it provides value for money.
The website talks about electronic circuit breakers, and the critical
importance of monitoring the status of your electrical system. To me
neither are really important. Circuit breakers are just a mechanical
means of meeting a requirement to prevent services drawing more current
than the wiring can support. I assume the electronic circuit breakers in
a VP-X are really current monitors - so I guess what is really happening
is the box monitors the expected current draw, compares the actual draw
and disconnects the circuit if the current draw is greater. Its rather
condescending to call these 'electronic circuit breakers', implying that
they are an automatic disconnection function, why not call them what
they are , something like an active current monitor. The box must be
fully up and running for the current monitoring functions to work. So if
the box really is smart can't it do something else than just switch off
the circuit? Circuit protection is important, but breakers are
yesterday's way of achieving the aim.
Do we really need to know the status of the electrical system? In a
conventional system we will know if a fuse blows as the service will not
work. Current monitoring is straight forward, and voltage monitoring is
something that just about every box does now. What additional benefit
does the VP-X offer?
It does offer other facilities, such as wig-wags, trim protection and
flap protection. But I don't really want to hand over control of flight
controls (ie the trim) to an unknown box of software. It also claims to
disable the flaps above a certain airspeed - but how is that airspeed
sensed and communicated? Unless that function is implemented in some
fairly high integrity way I would not be too happy to rely on it - would
failure at high airspeed mean that the flaps would deploy at way over
the limit speed with potentially serious results?
I think that using a system such as this would demand a completely
separate endurance bus, probably supported by its own alternator - I see
no merit in hooking 2 alternators into one VP-X box.
For me its too many eggs in one box of unknown fragility.
Apologies for the rather negative post.
Peter
On 04/10/2013 22:50, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 11:21 AM 10/4/2013, you wrote:
>> Here
>>
>> You can find the VP-X Pro installation and operation manual here
>>
>> http://verticalpower.com/docs/Install_Ops_Manual_VP-X_P_S.pdf
>> <http://verticalpower.com/docs/Install_Ops_Manual_VP-X_P_S.pdf>
>>
>> Information about the Dual Buss feature, but only with one energy
>> source, is on pages 9 and 10 -- paragraph 4.4
>> Information about using a 2^nd alternator is on page 28 -- paragraphs
>> 5.9c and 5.9d
>> Information about wiring back-up circuits is on pages 43 to 46 --
>> paragraph 5.24 and 5.24a through 5.24e
>> Information about using a 2^nd battery is on pages 47 to 49 --
>> paragraphs 5.26 and 5.27
>>
>> Hope this helps
>
> I'll need to sit down with a brew and pray over
> this for a bit . . .
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> *
>
>
> *
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