---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 10/12/13: 25 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:38 AM - Re: Cover of Revision 13 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 05:48 AM - Re: Cover of Revision 13 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 06:31 AM - Re: Re: iPad charger? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 08:08 AM - Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (user9253) 5. 08:42 AM - Re: Charge battery thru Ground Power Jack (jonlaury) 6. 08:43 AM - Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 09:03 AM - Re: Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (Fred Klein) 8. 09:03 AM - Re Cover of Revision 13 (MLE) 9. 09:38 AM - Re: Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 09:41 AM - Re: Re Cover of Revision 13 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 09:41 AM - Re: iPad charger? (ronaldcox) 12. 09:43 AM - Re: Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (Bill Bradburry) 13. 09:48 AM - Re: Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 09:51 AM - Re: Re: Charge battery thru Ground Power Jack (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 09:57 AM - Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (Fred Klein) 16. 10:07 AM - Re: iPad charger? (Eric M. Jones) 17. 10:21 AM - Re: Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (Fred Klein) 18. 10:35 AM - Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (Fred Klein) 19. 11:57 AM - Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (user9253) 20. 12:15 PM - Re: Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (Fred Klein) 21. 01:03 PM - Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (Fred Klein) 22. 01:11 PM - Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (Peter Pengilly) 23. 01:51 PM - Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (Fred Klein) 24. 02:35 PM - Re: Re: iPad charger? (Eric Page) 25. 03:01 PM - Re: Re: iPad charger? (H. Marvin Haught) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:38:24 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Cover of Revision 13 At 10:03 PM 10/11/2013, you wrote: > > > The front cover is of pretty high resolution and, of course, > 8.5 x 11 inches. So the candidate image would probably want to be > something on the order of 8500 pixels wide by 1100 tall. > >Theres a missing zero: 8500 x 11000 is what you meant I think Correct! Thank you. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:48:00 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Cover of Revision 13 At 10:49 PM 10/11/2013, you wrote: >Here are some sterling examples of what this list, Aero Electric >Connection is about, and that give a nod to our list-master Matt >Dralle at the same time. > >See: >http://alturl.com/jwgiu > >By the way Bob - I'd like to see something personal that you pick >for the cover too. > >Bill I'm pleased that you have picked up on the outcome of Matt's work-product. I was going to write and ask him if we could get a dramatic shot of his airplane over the California landscape . . . or some other shot that he likes. His airplane should certainly be among those offered up for consideration. The work we do here on the list is but one cog in the free-market exchange of value driven by the honorable exercise of Spontaneous Organization. Matt's contributions to OBAM aviation and the S0 mechanism is inarguable. I will certainly vote along with the rest of you but I want the cover to be a List Effort. You guys are a critical component of the machinery that makes it all work. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:31:01 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: iPad charger? At 12:00 AM 10/12/2013, you wrote: > > >On Oct 11, 2013, at 8:11 PM, Sacha wrote: > > Yup. What I was wondering is, suppose you have a 5V supply with > the right signaling voltages and plenty of power? Does paralleling > two USB ports onto its output work to supply two iPads (or an iPad > and fast-charge an iPhone) or does one need some kind of circuit to > isolate one from the other? > > >I can't think of any reason paralleling them wouldn't work, assuming >you only want to charge Apple devices. I haven't paralleled the >data pins in my design (because I want the ports to be able to >charge two different brands of devices simultaneously) but the bulk >charging current is shared. > >Eric Paralleling the +5 supply does work. That's what happens inside your computer. There may be some provisions for circuit protection. The +5 supply in a computer (the older ones at last) can grunt 30 amps . . . real potential for smoke of the USB cord's stranding . . . typically 26AWG. I've poked around on the pins of a I-GO universal cigar lighter adapter to see if I could deduce why their mini-A connectors always keep my Motorola phone happy, but some, not all, wall warts do not. It appears that one of the USB data lines is tied to either 5v or ground through a resistor. I forget which now. In any case, I don't think ANY of the USB powered appliances are looking for any 'intelligent' connection to their power sources . . . a simple bias network of some kind keeps the appliance from complaining about 'unauthorized' power sources. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:08:28 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround From: "user9253" Having an avionics master switch is a bad idea. It is a single point of failure. The endurance master switch is another single point of failure. It is more likely to fail than a battery. 50 amps seems too big. The cost of the EXP BUS should not influence the decision to use or not use it. "inexperience and lack of knowledge of things electrical" is a good reason NOT to use the EXP BUS. Discrete components are easier to troubleshoot and replace. You are better off using one of Bob Nuckolls well proven designs, perhaps Z-19/RB (with E-Bus Relay) modified to meet the unique engine requirements. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410381#410381 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:42:53 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Charge battery thru Ground Power Jack From: "jonlaury" Bob said: "But even before that, what is the perceived value of 'plugging-in'?" OK, I would just feel better l if I could use the mostly dead weight GPJ for something else besides an event that might never occur, i.e. being surprised by a dead battery. But if that happened, it would be convenient to just connect to the GPG with the charger w/o removing the cowling. Maybe in time I will get more relaxed about having everything in top shape, but with this new bird, I'm all over it like a new mother fixing anything that isn't right. And I confess to being oversensitive to my battery settling on 12.4v, without a float charge, after a month long undiagnosed problem of seeing it drop below 12v over a few days because of the battery-bused ANR headset I'd left on ( the power indicator was turned out of sight). So I'm going to cut the cord ;-) and see where the batt settles now and maybe an attitude adjustment will be the solution. I do need to install a 12v outlet(s) in the cabin, so when that's done, I will just use Joe G's idea to plug into it and connect to a charger when necessary. John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410384#410384 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:43:56 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EXP 2 Bus workaround I've been struggling to layout a circuit diagram which combines the EXP 2 BUS configured for an external solenoid with the dual battery / single alternator diagram Z-19 in the "Connection". I understand the conditions that are a basis for your struggles. You've purchased a lot of 'stuff', cut holes in then panel and mounted it . . . and you're only now beginning to sift the bits and pieces in a quest for the elegant solution. It's not clear to me how the List can be a great deal of help . . . many options available to you at the clean-sheet-of-paper stage for your planning are no longer applicable. The EXP-Bus architecture which was already pretty busy is going to get still more complicated . . . not a very pilot or maintenance friendly situation. I have made a number of decisions which have committed me to the digital world including: - an engine w/ electronic ignition, fuel injection, and an ECU (EC3, Real World Systems) which came w/ the engine, Additionally, in order to provide redundancy, the engine and control system includes: - dual batteries, presently planned to be Odyssey 680's, What are the energy demands to run the engine? If you were powering nothing but the engine, how many amps are required to keep the fires lit? What are your design goals for battery only endurance? Will one battery meet those goals or will you be taxing both? - independent back up battery for Skyview, - independent back up battery for stand-alone GPS, Garmin 396, With two fat batteries on board, backing up these items with still more batteries seems excessively 'redundant'. If the ship's batteries are depleted, the value of having the panel lit seems contrary to the purpose of having an 'endurance mode' of flight. The idea is to have a carefully crafted Plan-B that gets wheels on the ground before you (a) run out of fuel and/or (b) run out of electrons. Critical LOADS multiplied by TIME are the driving factor. Do you know what those numbers are? - redundant motherboards (A and B) for the ECU which are toggled from the panel. This architecture is not clear from your drawings. How do TWO motherboards get switched into and out of service? OK...about the EXP BUS...I've now read many reports (including the VAF threads) which point out its shortcomings...but having spent $550 for it and its companion Indicator Module, and given my inexperience and lack of knowledge of things electrical, I still believe it has a place in my panel, so I hope any critique of what I'm up to doesn't focus on simply getting rid of it. Won't do that . . . but at the same time, be aware that contributions from the List will be adjustments to make do with what already exists as opposed the artfully tailored design. The end result would not be a candidate for a new z-figure . . . in other words, not recommended for new design. The main problem I'm having with the EXP BUS is that it simply does not have the two 20 amp circuits my engine guy sez are essential...one for the fuel injectors, and one for the coils. On my circuit diagram, I attempt to address it by running those two circuits off an Endurance bus which avoids the EXP BUS entirely. That seems reasonable. Z-19 suggests two battery busses with options to run the engine from either bus. I do use available circuits in the EXP BUS for the ECU, the EMS, and the fuel pumps; these components are also fed from the Endurance bus. I suggest you divorce the engine from the EXP-Bus entirely and plan on running the engine from its own battery with an option for running it from the main battery. You show three feeders to coils, injectors and ECU. What is the recommended protection level for each of these feeders? I have space on my panel (just above the EXP BUS, and below the Skyview flat screen) for a row of 6 - CB / switches which are presently planned to be: - rocker or toggle between Fuel Pump #1 and Fuel Pump #2, - Endurance Master Switch / 50 amp CB, - Battery #2 ON / OFF, - 20 amp CB for Fuel Injectors, - 20 amp CB for Coils, - spare That's a LOT of controls with risks for not getting the right combination of switches open/closed when things are not going well under the cowl . . . Attached are pixs of my instrument panel in its present state, and a proposed circuit diagram. I'd be most appreciative of any comments, and particularly those which point our errors or weakness in the diagram. We'll do what we can but your meatloaf is already in then pan and we're only now joining the conversation about ways to make it taste better. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:03:49 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround From: Fred Klein On Oct 12, 2013, at 8:07 AM, user9253 wrote: > > Having an avionics master switch is a bad idea. It is a single point of failure. > The endurance master switch is another single point of failure. It is more likely to fail than a battery. 50 amps seems too big. > The cost of the EXP BUS should not influence the decision to use or not use it. "inexperience and lack of knowledge of things electrical" is a good reason NOT to use the EXP BUS. Discrete components are easier to troubleshoot and replace. > You are better off using one of Bob Nuckolls well proven designs, perhaps Z-19/RB (with E-Bus Relay) modified to meet the unique engine requirements. Joe...I thank you for your succinct and prompt assessment...much to ponder...as I wrote, I've struggled in my efforts to integrate the EXP Bus w/ Z-19 and to overcome the limitations of the EXP Bus w/ respect to my "unique engine requirements". As you point out, the 50 amp size of the endurance master switch is too big...after reviewing my notes, I see that the injectors draw 1 to 2 amps each as do the coils...I'd misread a note calling for separate 20 amp circuits for both injectors and coils. As for the EXP Bus, I could bring myself to discard it completely if I can conclude that by doing so, it would solve more problems than it would create. My decision to buy it was based upon seeing it in a friend's CAM 125 powered Europa; a retired RCAF senior test pilot, he admitted electronic ignorance and believed it saved him a lot of time and trouble. Thanks again, Fred ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:03:55 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re Cover of Revision 13 From: MLE How about using one of the Z drawings on the cover, a smaller version of the real deal of course. Marty Time: 09:37:45 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Cover of Revision 13 Still looking for suggestions/photos as candidtates for the front cover of Revision 13. Many of you will recall that we had a run-off here on the list to choose from several options on R12. At the moment, there's nothing in the hopper . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:38:50 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround At 10:07 AM 10/12/2013, you wrote: > >Having an avionics master switch is a bad idea. It is a single >point of failure. Let's ponder the possibility of making the AV master switch the e-bus alternate feed. This would require that the upstream side of the switch be fed from the ship's battery bus . . . and a diode feed be added from main bus to the avionics cum e-bus. >The endurance master switch is another single point of failure. It >is more likely to fail than a battery. 50 amps seems too big. Yeah . . . if we can get all the numbers for running the engine, perhaps we can move toward a Z-19 configuration that eliminates the need for a single switch to manage all engine power feeders. > The cost of the EXP BUS should not influence the decision to use > or not use it. "inexperience and lack of knowledge of things > electrical" is a good reason NOT to use the EXP BUS. Discrete > components are easier to troubleshoot and replace. > You are better off using one of Bob Nuckolls well proven designs, > perhaps Z-19/RB (with E-Bus Relay) modified to meet the unique > engine requirements. It may be possible/practical to get there without taking a chain-saw to the panel. I don't know what the switches are like on the EXP-Bus but they can't be any worse than those used on the C-150 for a decade or so . . . and while a significant maintenance item for the TC world with $50 shop labor rates, many of those switches did just fine for a long time. How can we eliminate single points of failure and leave the EXP-Bus largely intact? Another point I've pondered is the idea of taking the alternator b-lead to the battery or starter contactors through a current limiter and not bringing the feeder into the cockpit. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:41:36 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re Cover of Revision 13 At 11:03 AM 10/12/2013, you wrote: >How about using one of the Z drawings on the cover, a smaller >version of the real deal of course. >Marty > >Time: 09:37:45 AM PST US >From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" ><nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Cover of Revision 13 > Okay, we'll throw that into the hat for consideration. Do any of you photoshop drivers out there want to play with some assemblage of z-figure excerpts as a front cover? If you have Adobe Acrobat, you can do really nice screen captures off the pdf files. I can also supply pdfs with the light weights adjusted for better 'pop' . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:41:45 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: iPad charger? From: "ronaldcox" Has anyone looked into this device? I've tried it on the bench and it seems to power my iPad mini just fine. But then most cheapies do, with the attendant iOS ver. 7 warning about it not being a certified accessory. Plan to use it in my Glasair panel unless someone warns me off. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0082CXEI8/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i02?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Looks well made, takes 12v input, and looks nice in panel. Doesn't seem to cause a lot of noise in my handheld radio. Ron Cox Glasair is about to fly! -------- Ron Cox Glasair Super II F/T Under Construction at C77 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410391#410391 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:43:10 AM PST US From: "Bill Bradburry" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround Fred, Z-19 has a battery buss for each of the batteries. If you have an electrically dependent engine, you should run everything that the engine needs to keep operating off of those battery busses. I am talking about the engine controller, fuel pumps, injector power, igniter power, etc.. You should be able to shut off the master and never have a hiccup from your engine. I would not put anything you need to remain in the air thru that EXP BUS. Bill B -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 12:03 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround On Oct 12, 2013, at 8:07 AM, user9253 wrote: > > Having an avionics master switch is a bad idea. It is a single point of failure. > The endurance master switch is another single point of failure. It is more likely to fail than a battery. 50 amps seems too big. > The cost of the EXP BUS should not influence the decision to use or not use it. "inexperience and lack of knowledge of things electrical" is a good reason NOT to use the EXP BUS. Discrete components are easier to troubleshoot and replace. > You are better off using one of Bob Nuckolls well proven designs, perhaps Z-19/RB (with E-Bus Relay) modified to meet the unique engine requirements. Joe...I thank you for your succinct and prompt assessment...much to ponder...as I wrote, I've struggled in my efforts to integrate the EXP Bus w/ Z-19 and to overcome the limitations of the EXP Bus w/ respect to my "unique engine requirements". As you point out, the 50 amp size of the endurance master switch is too big...after reviewing my notes, I see that the injectors draw 1 to 2 amps each as do the coils...I'd misread a note calling for separate 20 amp circuits for both injectors and coils. As for the EXP Bus, I could bring myself to discard it completely if I can conclude that by doing so, it would solve more problems than it would create. My decision to buy it was based upon seeing it in a friend's CAM 125 powered Europa; a retired RCAF senior test pilot, he admitted electronic ignorance and believed it saved him a lot of time and trouble. Thanks again, Fred ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:48:28 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround > > >As you point out, the 50 amp size of the endurance master switch is >too big...after reviewing my notes, I see that the injectors draw 1 >to 2 amps each as do the coils...I'd misread a note calling for >separate 20 amp circuits for both injectors and coils. Aha! that's good to hear . . . What's the ECU draw? >As for the EXP Bus, I could bring myself to discard it completely if >I can conclude that by doing so, it would solve more problems than >it would create. My decision to buy it was based upon seeing it in a >friend's CAM 125 powered Europa; a retired RCAF senior test pilot, >he admitted electronic ignorance and believed it saved him a lot of >time and trouble. These things DO save a lot of time if you can use them plug-n-play with the architecture around which the panel was designed. The EXP-Bus is tailored to the legacy TC aircraft systems with avionics bus, no battery buss(es), b-lead coming into the cockpit, etc. There are tens of thousands of airplanes carrying happy pilots around with that architecture so there's noting 'wrong' with it. But incorporating alternative design goals into a cookie-cutter product can be a challenge . . . let's see what we can do with it. Fred, is your alternator internally regulated? Are you amenable to modifying it for compatibility with external management of over-voltage events? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:51:41 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Charge battery thru Ground Power Jack > >I do need to install a 12v outlet(s) in the cabin, so when that's >done, I will just use Joe G's idea to plug into it and connect to a >charger when necessary. >John That's a proven recipe for success. Dozens of my readers over the years have installed cigar lighter sockets and/or unique 12vdc power outlets powered through a battery-bus fuse. This access to the battery offers a means by which the charger/maintainer can be connected to the battery . . . with a cord hanging out through a cracked open door or canopy. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:57:01 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EXP 2 Bus workaround On Oct 12, 2013, at 8:43 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > I've been struggling to layout a circuit diagram which combines the EXP 2 BUS configured for an external solenoid with the dual battery / single alternator diagram Z-19 in the "Connection". > > I understand the conditions that are a basis for your struggles. Bob, Thank you for your thoughtful, point by point dissection of my posting...you raise a number of questions which I know I need to have answered...and I appreciate your restraint and good humor. It may take a while to sort out things...you're quite correct in writing that I am on "a quest for the elegant solution" for what goes on behind the panel as well in as all other aspects of my aircraft. Certainly my intention when purchasing an EMS designed to compliment my ECU, an integrated avionics suite like Skyview, and the EXP Bus for that matter, was to eliminate as many "seams" as possible. With utmost respect, Fred ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:07:38 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: iPad charger? From: "Eric M. Jones" > I've made one of these 10-37V input, variable output 5A linear chargers for a customer. I don't like switch mode power supplies where they can be avoided due to the unknowns of RFI/EMI. Better quality switchers CAN be found. > > I might be persuaded to make a run of these in about a month. Hah! And I'll deny I ever said it. I will bail out of this project for now. A couple other Eric's might have products that will do the job. I've looked into the design and a unit that will do the job at 1500 mA can be made to sell for $100/socket. Considering that the panel mounted USB socket is $10 and the parts come to $50, that's not so bad. There are cheaper ways to go but they are limited in their recharging power, but still suitable for some devices. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410399#410399 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:21:37 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround On Oct 12, 2013, at 9:48 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> As you point out, the 50 amp size of the endurance master switch is too big...after reviewing my notes, I see that the injectors draw 1 to 2 amps each as do the coils...I'd misread a note calling for separate 20 amp circuits for both injectors and coils. > > Aha! that's good to hear . . . What's the ECU draw? Bob...ECU draws 1/2 amp...(exclusive of fuel injectors and coils) > >> As for the EXP Bus, I could bring myself to discard it completely if I can conclude that by doing so, it would solve more problems than it would create. My decision to buy it was based upon seeing it in a friend's CAM 125 powered Europa; a retired RCAF senior test pilot, he admitted electronic ignorance and believed it saved him a lot of time and trouble. > > These things DO save a lot of time if you can > use them plug-n-play with the architecture around > which the panel was designed. ...which indeed was my intention...and, I might add, that pulling the EXP from my instrument panel module and replacing it w/ a blank plate is a 15 min. job...no hack saw req'd... > The EXP-Bus is tailored to the legacy TC aircraft systems with > avionics bus, no battery buss(es), b-lead coming > into the cockpit, etc. > > There are tens of thousands of airplanes carrying > happy pilots around with that architecture so there's > noting 'wrong' with it. But incorporating alternative > design goals into a cookie-cutter product can be > a challenge . . . let's see what we can do with it. ...I'm reluctant to throw the baby out w/ the bathwater... > > Fred, is your alternator internally regulated? ...yes... > Are you amenable to modifying it for compatibility with > external management of over-voltage events? ...the very thought of doing so fills me w/ dread, and first I'd like to research and determine to what extent it manages over-voltage events internally... Fred ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:35:19 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EXP 2 Bus workaround On Oct 12, 2013, at 8:43 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > Additionally, in order to provide redundancy, the engine and control system includes: > > - redundant motherboards (A and B) for the ECU which are toggled from the panel. > > This architecture is not clear from your drawings. > How do TWO motherboards get switched into and out > of service? Bob...in the center of the ECU control panel are 2 toggle switches...the one at right toggles between "A" and "B"...the "A" is hidden by the switch...using the LCD screen for the EMS, the ECU is programmable from the cockpit...Fred ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:57:18 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround From: "user9253" Assuming that the EXP 2 Bus is utilized, how about feeding the E-Bus from each end, one end from battery #1 and the other end from battery #2? Then the failure of any one wire or connection will not open power going to the E-Bus. 30 amp fuses could be inserted near the batteries. Diodes prevent starting or fault current from flowing from one battery to the other through the E-Bus. See schematic attached. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410404#410404 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/e_bus_118.jpg ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:15:25 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround On Oct 12, 2013, at 11:55 AM, user9253 wrote: > Assuming that the EXP 2 Bus is utilized, how about feeding the E-Bus from each end, one end from battery #1 and the other end from battery #2? Thanks Joe...by coincidence, I've just sent off an email to the makers of the EXP asking almost the very same thing...stay tuned, Fred ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 01:03:38 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EXP 2 Bus workaround On Oct 12, 2013, at 8:43 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > - independent back up battery for Skyview, > > - independent back up battery for stand-alone GPS, Garmin 396, > > With two fat batteries on board, backing up these items > with still more batteries seems excessively 'redundant'. > If the ship's batteries are depleted, the value > of having the panel lit seems contrary to the > purpose of having an 'endurance mode' of flight. Bob...my reasoning behind the individual little back up batteries for Skyview EFIS and my back up GPS was not to address an immediate concern for main battery life, but rather to provide continued operation independent of the aircraft electrical system, be it powered by the "main bus" or the "endurance bus". On the other hand, I thought that given the degree of my engine's dependence on electricity, it would be a good thing to lessen the load going thru the endurance bus...I've yet to quantify the implications of this, but conceptually, I thought it was a good move. No question in my mind that I want to incorporate a robust endurance bus...a couple of years ago, a Europa pal, Paul McCallister, was struck by lightning, and continued flying for 90 minutes to your design which he'd followed which included an endurance bus as part of your Rotax 9XX diagram. Fred ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 01:11:52 PM PST US From: Peter Pengilly Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EXP 2 Bus workaround Fred, I had an Exp Bus 2 in my airplane for several years. The original builder fitted it after a similar thought process to your friend's. Thinking about its good points and not so good. Good things: It has a good instrument light dimmer Not so good things: It is difficult to expand The current sensing lights on the indicator module aren't that accurate (cause more concern than they are worth) It is difficult to add additional services I found I had an intermittent fault that cut power to the avionics momentarily, which took the txpdr off line for long enough that ATC would give me a hard time, but I could not talk back to them as the radio was going through its self test. Never did find out what the problem was. I would use it to power those items that you could fly without. I would route the power to the ECUs well away from it (for that matter, anything to do with the engine/fuel pumps) and would also power the radio, txpdr & Skyview from the Endurance bus only (with 2 batteries you don't really need a skyview battery as well). I would have an individual switch to connect each battery to the endurance bus (one switch is a single point failure), and an individual switch for each fuel pump - perhaps gated to stop inadvertent switching off. If comm, txpdr & Skyview remain powered from Av bus on Exp2 I would not use the avionics master switch on the board (another potential single point failure) - can it be jumpered? If it only powers the GPS (with internal battery) & intercom there is not much point in a jumper, leave it in. Peter On 12/10/2013 07:29, Fred Klein wrote: > Guys...electrical wizards... > > With full knowledge of my ignorance of all things electric but with only scant knowledge of the challenges which lay ahead, some time ago I purchased an EXP 2 Bus, thinking that having one would simplify many issues and offset some of the novelty inherent with my auto engine conversion, a MPEFIed derivative of a EA81 Subaru built by RAM Performance Aero Engines which is liquid cooled. Aircraft is a Europa XS monowheel which is typically powered w/ a 912S or 914. > > I've been struggling to layout a circuit diagram which combines the EXP 2 BUS configured for an external solenoid with the dual battery / single alternator diagram Z-19 in the "Connection". > > I have made a number of decisions which have committed me to the digital world including: > > - an engine w/ electronic ignition, fuel injection, and an ECU (EC3, Real World Systems) which came w/ the engine, > > - a digital EMS (EM3, Real World Systems) which "talks" w/ the ECU, > > - a digital EFIS (Skyview) including moving map, digital terrain, Transponder, COM, and Intercom. > > By selecting an auto engine conversion, I have committed to: > > - one alternator, belt driven, > > - one coolant pump, belt driven, > > - single spark plug in each cylinder. > > Additionally, in order to provide redundancy, the engine and control system includes: > > - dual batteries, presently planned to be Odyssey 680's, > > - two independent high pressure fuel pumps, each w/ their own filter, > > - independent back up battery for Skyview, > > - independent back up battery for stand-alone GPS, Garmin 396, > > - redundant motherboards (A and B) for the ECU which are toggled from the panel. > > OK...about the EXP BUS...I've now read many reports (including the VAF threads) which point out its shortcomings...but having spent $550 for it and its companion Indicator Module, and given my inexperience and lack of knowledge of things electrical, I still believe it has a place in my panel, so I hope any critique of what I'm up to doesn't focus on simply getting rid of it. > > The main problem I'm having with the EXP BUS is that it simply does not have the two 20 amp circuits my engine guy sez are essential...one for the fuel injectors, and one for the coils. On my circuit diagram, I attempt to address it by running those two circuits off an Endurance bus which avoids the EXP BUS entirely. > > I do use available circuits in the EXP BUS for the ECU, the EMS, and the fuel pumps; these components are also fed from the Endurance bus. > > I have space on my panel (just above the EXP BUS, and below the Skyview flat screen) for a row of 6 - CB / switches which are presently planned to be: > > - rocker or toggle between Fuel Pump #1 and Fuel Pump #2, > - Endurance Master Switch / 50 amp CB, > - Battery #2 ON / OFF, > - 20 amp CB for Fuel Injectors, > - 20 amp CB for Coils, > - spare > > Attached are pixs of my instrument panel in its present state, and a proposed circuit diagram. > I'd be most appreciative of any comments, and particularly those which point our errors or weakness in the diagram. > > Fred > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:51:48 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EXP 2 Bus workaround On Oct 12, 2013, at 1:11 PM, Peter Pengilly wrote: > I had an Exp Bus 2 in my airplane for several years. The original builder fitted it after a similar thought process to your friend's. Thinking about its good points and not so good. > > Good things: > It has a good instrument light dimmer Peter...what a ringing endorsement...!...LOL... Thanks much for your thoughtful suggestions...I am indeed back at the drawing board. Fred ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:35:46 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: iPad charger? From: Eric Page Ron, Try a simple test to see if you'll be satisfied with this device's in-flight performance: - Run the battery in your iPad down a good amount - Turn the screen up to full brightness - Set the auto-lock so the screen stays on - Launch the aviation app you use in flight - Connect the iPad to any external GPS/AHRS box you use - Set the app to moving map or EFIS mode so it's processing received data - Note its battery level, then plug your iPad into this USB outlet The rise or fall of your iPad's battery level over time will tell you what you need to know. If you want to be ambitious, run down your cellphone and plug that in at the same time. Hopefully you've gotten lucky! Cheers, Eric do not archive On Oct 12, 2013, at 9:41 AM, "ronaldcox" wrote: > Has anyone looked into this device? I've tried it on the bench and it seems to power my iPad mini just fine. But then most cheapies do, with the attendant iOS ver. 7 warning about it not being a certified accessory. > > Plan to use it in my Glasair panel unless someone warns me off. > > http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0082CXEI8/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i02?ie=UTF8&psc=1 > > Looks well made, takes 12v input, and looks nice in panel. Doesn't seem to cause a lot of noise in my handheld radio. > > Ron Cox > Glasair is about to fly! > > -------- > Ron Cox > Glasair Super II F/T > Under Construction at C77 > > > Read this topic online here: > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410391#410391 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 03:01:06 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: iPad charger? From: "H. Marvin Haught" I certainly would be interested to know the results of that experiment. Keep us posted! M. Haught On Oct 12, 2013, at 4:34 PM, Eric Page wrote: > > Ron, > > Try a simple test to see if you'll be satisfied with this device's in-flight performance: > > - Run the battery in your iPad down a good amount > - Turn the screen up to full brightness > - Set the auto-lock so the screen stays on > - Launch the aviation app you use in flight > - Connect the iPad to any external GPS/AHRS box you use > - Set the app to moving map or EFIS mode so it's processing received data > - Note its battery level, then plug your iPad into this USB outlet > > The rise or fall of your iPad's battery level over time will tell you what you need to know. If you want to be ambitious, run down your cellphone and plug that in at the same time. > > Hopefully you've gotten lucky! > > Cheers, > > Eric > > do not archive > > > On Oct 12, 2013, at 9:41 AM, "ronaldcox" wrote: >> Has anyone looked into this device? I've tried it on the bench and it seems to power my iPad mini just fine. But then most cheapies do, with the attendant iOS ver. 7 warning about it not being a certified accessory. >> >> Plan to use it in my Glasair panel unless someone warns me off. >> >> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0082CXEI8/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i02?ie=UTF8&psc=1 >> >> Looks well made, takes 12v input, and looks nice in panel. Doesn't seem to cause a lot of noise in my handheld radio. >> >> Ron Cox >> Glasair is about to fly! >> >> -------- >> Ron Cox >> Glasair Super II F/T >> Under Construction at C77 >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410391#410391 > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.