AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Sun 10/13/13


Total Messages Posted: 14



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 07:41 AM - Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     2. 10:47 AM - Re: iPad charger? (Eric M. Jones)
     3. 11:31 AM - Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     4. 11:44 AM - Re: Re: iPad charger? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     5. 11:54 AM - Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (Fred Klein)
     6. 12:26 PM - Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (Fred Klein)
     7. 02:51 PM - Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     8. 03:11 PM - Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     9. 03:19 PM - Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (Peter Pengilly)
    10. 03:20 PM - Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (Fred Klein)
    11. 03:30 PM - Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    12. 03:31 PM - Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    13. 03:53 PM - Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (Fred Klein)
    14. 04:07 PM - Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (Fred Klein)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 07:41:42 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround
    > >Bob...my reasoning behind the individual little back up batteries >for Skyview EFIS and my back up GPS was not to address an immediate >concern for main battery life, but rather to provide continued >operation independent of the aircraft electrical system, be it >powered by the "main bus" or the "endurance bus". Yes, that's what backup batteries do . . . >On the other hand, I thought that given the degree of my engine's >dependence on electricity, it would be a good thing to lessen the >load going thru the endurance bus...I've yet to quantify >the implications of this, but conceptually, I thought it was a good move. In a two-battery system, the engine never sees the endurance bus; in a one-battery system, ditto. The engine should run from a battery bus, preferably one dedicated to the task. >No question in my mind that I want to incorporate a robust endurance >bus...a couple of years ago, a Europa pal, Paul McCallister, was >struck by lightning, and continued flying for 90 minutes to your >design which he'd followed which included an endurance bus as part >of your Rotax 9XX diagram. 90 minutes . . . that's the first NUMBER that has popped up in this discussion. Last week we had some conversation here on the List with a fellow who was going through much of the same questions you are now . . . but with no answers based on analysis and preventative maintenance as opposed to "good moves". The point being that the elegant system design starts with energy budgets . . . we had some discussion here on the List about the Dreaded Downwind Turn and I promised to finish an article on the topic. That problem also yields to an analysis that identifies, quantifies and then distributes a finite amount of energy to a series of activities that produce the desired end goal. The outcome of that analysis promises to dispel useless if not dangerous myths and gives us opportunity to be better pilots based on the numbers. I used to occupy a booth at OSH right across the isle from the guy selling EXP-Bus . . . or something similar . . . I don't recall now. That was 20 years ago. But I could hear his 'pitch'. Even at that stage of advancement in my career, I had to cringe at some of the superlatives he used first to hook then reel in a prospective customer. The word "emergency" was used with some frequency along with claims for automation, labor reduction, cost reduction, etc. etc. . . . all GOOD things. But not once did he speak to sizing batteries, alternators and particularly ARCHITECTURE to a task, then knowing what the limits were for expecting that task to terminate comfortably. After all, he didn't sell alternators or batteries (we were doing that across the isle). He was selling architecture . . . and if he had any notion of how is cookie-cutter architecture would tie the hands of his customer's design process . . . that was not part of the 'pitch.' When we learn to fly, we're encourage to know, use and respect numbers for Vx, Vy, Best Glide, Vne, Stall Clean, Stall Dirty, Flap and gear extension speeds, C.G., weight, mixture, manifold pressures, increased drag in a turn, . . . all those numbers spread out across the panel. But my instructor never mentioned the value of KNOWING just how long I could fly battery only and MAINTAINING that capability through design and preventative maintenance. For my instructor, the BEST notion for detecting alternator failure was to pick up on the ammeter reading . . . yeah, we all scan that thing, right? For him, first notice that the alternator was dead triggered an emergency situation . . . because he wasn't sure how long it had been dead and he had not the foggiest notion of how many minutes of battery-only endurance was available. The best he could hope for is to extend an unknown number by turning off switches and pulling breakers . . . in-flight systems analysis when the pilot SHOULD be flying and navigating. It's the stuff from which really good dark-n-stormy-night stories are made. I'll suggest that the EXP-Bus offers at most a challenge for working around some relatively minor architecture issues. But like the guy who sits down to design a new airplane, we're wrestling with the same quest for setting design goals and then meeting them based on the numbers. The first number that would be of interest to me in your airplane is how long can I run this engine on a battery that who's service life is 25% used up? The next number is to deduce the time you can run a minimalist list of electro- whizzies that will get you to a comfortable arrival . . . if not at your original destination at least some place with convenient maintenance services . . . not at Dead Cow International 50 miles from everywhere else. The guy who sold you the engine should KNOW how much energy it takes to run his product. Not recommended wire or breaker size but WATTS of total power consumption at full throttle . . . and if draw is RPM dependent, then current demands at throttle settings for maximum endurance as well. Knowing those numbers at both normal (14.6v) and end of battery life (10.5v) would be required if I were designing a TC aircraft . . . but no less important in the OBAM aircraft. These are the functional equivalents of "Vx, Vy and Best Glide" numbers for your engine . . . numbers a flight instructor would never be expected to know but of intense interest to somebody in your position. A backup battery is a band-aid for not KNOWING the capabilities of and demands on the main battery. This is a kind of confession for saying that while we can FLY the airplane with due diligence to Vx, Vy and Best Glide . . . but ignorant of battery-only endurance for the engine or other accessories. Features necessary us to demonstrate our skills as pilots. My suggestion is to see how we can do a minimalist effort to incorporate the EXP-Bus into something like Z-19. Those are things we can discuss here on the List because they deal with the architecture. But whether or not you can toss out the notion of 'backup batteries' depends on your acquiring good numbers and then folding those numbers into your POH with as much confidence as you have for putting the wheels down when and where you wanted them every time. QUESTION: Is there any value in having separate, independent controls for ECU, Pumps and/or Ignition in planning the partition between normal flight and Plan-B? In other words, could Plan-A and Plan-B configurations be controlled by a single switch? In other words, let us consider switches. Under what conditions would you want to turn any one thing ON or OFF independently of other switches . . . or can we combine functionality much like that which happens when you turn the key in your car? Bob . . .


    Message 2


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    Time: 10:47:56 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: iPad charger?
    From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
    Google: " How to make your own iPad 2 USB charger ". Looks straightforward, but common to many chargers is the current limit which leads to fairly slow battery charge. Still, it's pretty easy to do. Rox Cox's post of http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0082CXEI8/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i02?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Seems pretty good and carries good reviews. Beware if you are years away from flying. USB-3 will be common soon (looks like USB-2 with a blue insert tongue. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410425#410425


    Message 3


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    Time: 11:31:10 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround
    >90 minutes . . . that's the first NUMBER that >has popped up in this discussion. Last week we had >some conversation here on the List with a fellow >who was going through much of the same questions >you are now . . . but with no answers based on >analysis and preventative maintenance as opposed >to "good moves". Some bullet points to touch on in the quest for an elegant solution: (1) See if the present avionics bus and it's associated master switch can be re-configured for the master switch to become an e-bus alternate feed switch by taking the upstream-end of that switch to a fuse on the main battery bus. Then jeep some flying leads onto the EXP-Bus assembly to add a diode feed from the Main bus to the new E-Bus. (2) Explore the value of an Engine Bus Option A and an Engine Bus Option B . . . an organization of normal and standby engine loads that can be controlled by a switch dedicated to each option. (a) Determine whether or not it is unhealthy or dangerous for both busses to be powered at the same time. (b) If so, what kind of mechanism would allowing either option to be selected OFF or ON indiviudally but never simultaneously. (c) Conduct a failure modes effects analysis to deduce the single point failure items for engine operation. (3) Get real life numbers on the power required to power either of these options. (4) Consider bringing the alternator B-Lead to a stud on a fire wall mounted contactor. Answer to (2) will drive further suggestions for eliminating a number of switches and improving on the probability for smooth conversion of a failure event to be no-big-deal. Bob . . .


    Message 4


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    Time: 11:44:26 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: iPad charger?
    At 12:46 PM 10/13/2013, you wrote: > >Google: " How to make your own iPad 2 USB charger ". Looks >straightforward, but common to many chargers is the current limit >which leads to fairly slow battery charge. Still, it's pretty easy to do. > >Rox Cox's post of >http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0082CXEI8/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i02?ie=UTF8&psc=1 > There is a link to a Wikipedia article in the comments for this device. See: http://tinyurl.com/l3krbv7 The article clears up some of the questions about why some devices balk at being conneted to just any ol' USB charger and others do not seem to care. There's further discussion about a device having a conversation with the USB host to see if and when a high power mode of charging can be negotiated. Interesting stuff. I've archived the article for further study. Bob . . .


    Message 5


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    Time: 11:54:11 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround
    From: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>
    Bob...thank you so much for your continued assistance in sorting out my ship's electrical issues...I have some unrelated things to do today, but will continue this conversation tomorrow after I've been able to quantify at least some of the considerations you've raised...and if it makes sense to throw the EXP Bus under the bus, I'm certainly willing to do so. Cheers, Fred >> 90 minutes . . . that's the first NUMBER that >> has popped up in this discussion. Last week we had >> some conversation here on the List with a fellow >> who was going through much of the same questions >> you are now . . . but with no answers based on >> analysis and preventative maintenance as opposed >> to "good moves". > > Some bullet points to touch on in the quest > for an elegant solution: >


    Message 6


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    Time: 12:26:58 PM PST US
    From: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>
    Subject: Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround
    On Oct 13, 2013, at 7:40 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > The engine should run from a battery bus, preferably > one dedicated to the task. Bob...I accept this without reservation...and I regret that in my attempts to work out a scheme which put my EPS Bus to good use and honored the concepts embedded in your Z-19 resulted in a circuit diagram which led me so far astray from this concept. As I study Z-19, I'm noting the multiple busses fed from the two battery contactors and the nominal sizing of the wires (12 AWG, w/ the caveat that they be no longer than 6 inches) to the 2 battery busses. I will determine the connected load on each of 2 battery busses which would be devoted to keeping the engine running...(fuel pumps, ECU, fuel injectors, coils) and the required size of their feeders. Feeding these multiple busses w/ my 2 batteries in the tailcone seems problematic if the contactors are adjacent to the batteries. I'd queried you a while back about the implications of mounting the contactors on the fire wall w/ the batteries in the rear...about 10 feet away...you mentioned this is not common practice and (I believe you said that) it poses unwanted risks. Can those risks be mitigated by some kind of fusible links back at the batteries?...or is it just plainly a dumb idea to separate bat from contactor? Would not the feeders to the (hot) battery busses carry the same risks? Fred


    Message 7


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    Time: 02:51:30 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround
    At 01:53 PM 10/13/2013, you wrote: > >Bob...thank you so much for your continued assistance in sorting out >my ship's electrical issues...I have some unrelated things to do >today, but will continue this conversation tomorrow after I've been >able to quantify at least some of the considerations you've >raised...and if it makes sense to throw the EXP Bus under the bus, >I'm certainly willing to do so. Let's not get too carried away . . . as far as I know, the EXP-Bus performs as advertised. Many of its features could not be qualified onto TC aircraft. Other features are just plain awkward from a cost of ownership perspective. However, unlike other 'flashes in the pan' of OBAM aviation history, the EXP-Bus is still with us . . . and to my knowledge, it's not set anyone's airplane on fire or played the staring character in a dark-n-stormy night story. The exercise for sifting of FMEA bits and adding up all the numbers is 90% common to any other suite of hardware. So before we abandon the $time$ you already have invested, let's consider ways to round off the rough edges without pushing your fly-date out unnecessarily. By the way, does anyone on the List have an EXP-Bus 2 that is un-installed that they could photograph from all perspectives to share with the List? Don't need pictures of the remote boxes . . . just the power distribution and switching assembly. Fred, your lighting and image quality was excellent but this view . . . Emacs! is a bit cluttered in the foreground. I'd liked to see how this puppy is assembled and wired . . . If anyone is taking new pictures, avoid flash and/or direct lighting, sky-light shaded from direct sun provides excellent, shadow and high-light free illumination for illustrating the deeper secrets. No hurry, we don't have a dragon to slay. I need to spend some time on Carlos' V-Power system integration questions. Bob . . .


    Message 8


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    Time: 03:11:18 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround
    At 02:26 PM 10/13/2013, you wrote: On Oct 13, 2013, at 7:40 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: The engine should run from a battery bus, preferably one dedicated to the task. Bob...I accept this without reservation...and I regret that in my attempts to work out a scheme which put my EPS Bus to good use and honored the concepts embedded in your Z-19 resulted in a circuit diagram which led me so far astray from this concept. Lets turn this into an inconvenience as opposed to a $time$ disaster . . . As I study Z-19, I'm noting the multiple busses fed from the two battery contactors and the nominal sizing of the wires (12 AWG, w/ the caveat that they be no longer than 6 inches) to the 2 battery busses. I will determine the connected load on each of 2 battery busses which would be devoted to keeping the engine running...(fuel pumps, ECU, fuel injectors, coils) and the required size of their feeders. Feeding these multiple busses w/ my 2 batteries in the tailcone seems problematic if the contactors are adjacent to the batteries. I'd queried you a while back about the implications of mounting the contactors on the fire wall w/ the batteries in the rear...about 10 feet away...you mentioned this is not common practice and (I believe you said that) it poses unwanted risks. Can those risks be mitigated by some kind of fusible links back at the batteries?...or is it just plainly a dumb idea to separate bat from contactor? Would not the feeders to the (hot) battery busses carry the same risks? Let's get the numbers and all the players identified first. I'm not so sure that you're rear-mounted batteries pose much of a design problem. How many pumps? Dual fuel injectors? Seems unlikely. You said you have one plug per cylinder . . . but if you have a distributor-less system, then you have coil-paks that do not lend themselves neatly to combining dual ignition through high voltage diodes like the Corvair guys do. So draw a box with a propeller on it and identify each device that consumes power in order to keep the engine running. Differentiate which items are use in 'normal mode', which are used in 'backup mode' and which are used in both modes. This part of the task is like assembling an arithmetic logic unit from a handful of gates . . . I need to have a handle on the logic before we start stringing wire and punching holes for switches. Bob . . .


    Message 9


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    Time: 03:19:40 PM PST US
    From: Peter Pengilly <peter@sportingaero.com>
    Subject: Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround
    Yeah - I can do that tomorrow - its a little butchered from the removal process, but I think it will provide the information you require. Peter On 13/10/2013 22:50, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > By the way, does anyone on the List have an > EXP-Bus 2 that is un-installed that they > could photograph from all perspectives to > share with the List? Don't need pictures > of the remote boxes . . . just the power > distribution and switching assembly.


    Message 10


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    Time: 03:20:43 PM PST US
    From: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>
    Subject: Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround
    On Oct 13, 2013, at 2:50 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > By the way, does anyone on the List have an > EXP-Bus 2 that is un-installed that they > could photograph from all perspectives to > share with the List? Bob...I can have mine out in a jif...Fred


    Message 11


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    Time: 03:30:04 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround
    At 05:19 PM 10/13/2013, you wrote: ><peter@sportingaero.com> > >Yeah - I can do that tomorrow - its a little butchered from the >removal process, but I think it will provide the information you require. > >Peter Super! Bob . . .


    Message 12


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    Time: 03:31:56 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround
    At 05:20 PM 10/13/2013, you wrote: >On Oct 13, 2013, at 2:50 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > >>By the way, does anyone on the List have an >> EXP-Bus 2 that is un-installed that they >> could photograph from all perspectives to >> share with the List? > >Bob...I can have mine out in a jif...Fred Okay! Lets have your pix too. Top, bottom, angles . . . Does the mfgr provide anything in the way of a printed schematic? Bob . . .


    Message 13


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    Time: 03:53:43 PM PST US
    From: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>
    Subject: Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround
    Bob...will these photos serve?...have I missed anything? The smaller item w/ the ribbon is the companion Indicator Module...Peter sez it has an excellent dimmer... Yes...a printed schematic is available: http://support.anywheremap.net/pdfs/EXP2-C.pdf Fred DSCN7164.JPG DSCN7166.JPG DSCN7168.JPG DSCN7169.JPG DSCN7170.JPG DSCN7171.JPG


    Message 14


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    Time: 04:07:54 PM PST US
    From: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>
    Subject: Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround
    Bob...I wrote, Yes...a printed schematic is available: http://support.anywheremap.net/pdfs/EXP2-C.pdf I've been referring to the diagram labeled "Typical Installation; External Solenoid" Also, there is a diagram depicting a Subaru installation w/ 2 circuits set up for a back up battery connection; however, I've given scant attention to it because I have no reason to believe that it addresses is:sues related to fuel injection: http://support.anywheremap.net/pdfs/expsub.PDF ...hope this is useful to your anlysis... Fred




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