---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 10/14/13: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:42 AM - Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 08:47 AM - Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (Fred Klein) 3. 10:51 AM - Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (Fred Klein) 4. 12:25 PM - Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (Ken) 5. 02:17 PM - New electrical architecture with ENGINE BUS (user9253) 6. 02:27 PM - Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (Peter Pengilly) 7. 03:53 PM - Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (Fred Klein) 8. 04:17 PM - Re: New electrical architecture with ENGINE BUS (Fred Klein) 9. 05:32 PM - Re: New electrical architecture with ENGINE BUS (user9253) 10. 08:28 PM - Re: Re: New electrical architecture with ENGINE BUS (R. curtis) 11. 09:06 PM - Re: iPad Charger (speedy11@aol.com) 12. 09:22 PM - Re: New electrical architecture with ENGINE BUS (Sacha) 13. 10:11 PM - Re: Re: New electrical architecture with ENGINE BUS (Fred Klein) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:42:14 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EXP 2 Bus workaround At 06:06 PM 10/13/2013, you wrote: >Bob...I wrote, > > Yes...a printed schematic is available: > >http://support.anywheremap.net/pdfs/EXP2-C.pdf > >I've been referring to the diagram labeled "Typical Installation; >External Solenoid" > >Also, there is a diagram depicting a Subaru installation w/ 2 >circuits set up for a back up battery connection; however, I've >given scant attention to it because I have no reason to believe that >it addresses is:sues related to fuel injection: > >http://support.anywheremap.net/pdfs/expsub.PDF > >...hope this is useful to your anlysis... Yeah, I think I have everything I need, Your pictures and Peter's will round out my manufacturer's data base on this product. All I need now is your summation of electrical loads needed to keep the engine running and their hierarchy. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:47:39 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EXP 2 Bus workaround On Oct 14, 2013, at 7:37 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > Yeah, I think I have everything I need, > Your pictures and Peter's will round out > my manufacturer's data base on this product. Bob...if your curiosity is piqued about this EXP puppy, I'd be happy to pop it in UPS w/ a check for return shipment if you'd like to put it on your bench...?... > > All I need now is your summation of electrical > loads needed to keep the engine running and > their hierarchy I'm workin on it, Fred ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:51:23 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EXP 2 Bus workaround From: Fred Klein Bob...see my indents below...I can't begin to express my appreciation for your willingness to attempt to lead me out of my rabbit hole...Fred > As I study Z-19, I'm noting the multiple busses fed from the two battery contactors and the nominal sizing of the wires (12 AWG, w/ the caveat that they be no longer than 6 inches) to the 2 battery busses. > > I will determine the connected load on each of 2 battery busses which would be devoted to keeping the engine running...(fuel pumps, ECU, fuel injectors, coils) and the required size of their feeders. > > Feeding these multiple busses w/ my 2 batteries in the tailcone seems problematic if the contactors are adjacent to the batteries. I'd queried you a while back about the implications of mounting the contactors on the fire wall w/ the batteries in the rear...about 10 feet away...you mentioned this is not common practice and (I believe you said that) it poses unwanted risks. > > Can those risks be mitigated by some kind of fusible links back at the batteries?...or is it just plainly a dumb idea to separate bat from contactor? > > Would not the feeders to the (hot) battery busses carry the same risks? > > (Bob writes).... Let's get the numbers and all the players identified > first. I'm not so sure that you're rear-mounted batteries > pose much of a design problem. That's good to hear... > > How many pumps? My engine is designed to run on one pump; I have a back up pump as well; each pump has it's own filter; the back up is intended to handle failure or clogging of the first pump. The hi pressure pumps draw 5.7 amps each. Both pumps should be able to be energized by either battery...and...it seems to me that I should want to toggle switch from one pump to the other. > Dual fuel injectors? Seems unlikely. My engine is MPEFI; it has 4 fuel injectors...each one draws between 1 and 2 amps. Would a photo or two of my engine be useful? > You said you have one plug per cylinder . . . but > if you have a distributor-less system, then you have > coil-paks that do not lend themselves neatly to > combining dual ignition through high voltage diodes > like the Corvair guys do. Though I drove one years ago, (a '65 convertible), I have no idea how the conversion guys are setting it up. My engine has 4 coils...all together they draw 8 amps. My engine has dual electronic ignition thanks to (I believe) dual Hall effect sensors...I don't know what, if any, their current draw is. My engine alternator is rated at 55 amps. > > So draw a box with a propeller on it and identify > each device that consumes power in order to keep > the engine running. Differentiate which items are > use in 'normal mode', which are used in 'backup mode' > and which are used in both modes. Will do...here's how I see it...to keep the prop spinning, I need: 1. The ECU (normal)...it has 3 power feeds...one for the "box" drawing 0.5 amps...one for the fuel injectors drawing 4 to 8 amps...and one for the coils drawing 8 amps (continuous...but engine guy sez during start up, draw could spike momentarily to 20 amps). Total continuous load: 16.5 amps. ECU (back up): It contains a duplicate motherboard accessed via a toggle switch on the control panel...no change in electrical load. 2. One serviceable fuel pump w/ an unclogged filter. Fuel pump draws 5.7 amps. Fuel pump (back up): I have a second pump (same rating as first) w/ separate filter. I BELIEVE that's all I need to keep the engine running...total load: 22.2 amps. (Round it up to say 25 amps?...what have I missed?) If this electrical load for the engine is routed thru a (always hot?) battery bus, would we then want to tally up additional loads on an endurance bus as a back up to everything deemed essential which would be normally drawing from the EXP Bus in the event that the EXP fizzles? And how do we provide the juice if the alternator fizzles as well? Note: regarding batteries: the Odyssey PC680 capacity is 16 ah, providing 24 "reserve minutes @ 25 amps"...see: http://www.odysseybatteries.com/mainpages/batteries.htm Assuming dual batteries and both battery states of 75%, I figure 24 ah available which would give 36 "reserve minutes" @ 25 amp draw. Does that sound right to you?...or am I getting way ahead of myself? Fred ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:25:55 PM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EXP 2 Bus workaround You are in the ballpark Fred but it's probably safe to round down to 20 amps for a no alternator battery life calculation. Different system but 15 amps will run my 4 cylinder OEM EFI soob in cruise. 4 amps or less total for injectors in cruise. Any EFI system should be smart enough to limit ignition coil currents to saturation values so again unlikely to draw more than about 4 amps there either. 5 is about right for my high pressure fuel pump. And one more for the computer. Definitely size the feeders and fuses as recommended but think you will find your cruise requirements are a bit more modest than some of the numbers would indicate. Probably a good thing since our batteries are seldom in perfect condition. While usually easy to achieve, it is also nice if you can maintain altitude with one dead cylinder when you only have one ignition coil and one injector per cylinder. Ken On 14/10/2013 1:49 PM, Fred Klein wrote: > > Bob...see my indents below...I can't begin to express my appreciation for your willingness to attempt to lead me out of my rabbit hole...Fred > >> As I study Z-19, I'm noting the multiple busses fed from the two battery contactors and the nominal sizing of the wires (12 AWG, w/ the caveat that they be no longer than 6 inches) to the 2 battery busses. >> >> I will determine the connected load on each of 2 battery busses which would be devoted to keeping the engine running...(fuel pumps, ECU, fuel injectors, coils) and the required size of their feeders. >> >> Feeding these multiple busses w/ my 2 batteries in the tailcone seems problematic if the contactors are adjacent to the batteries. I'd queried you a while back about the implications of mounting the contactors on the fire wall w/ the batteries in the rear...about 10 feet away...you mentioned this is not common practice and (I believe you said that) it poses unwanted risks. >> >> Can those risks be mitigated by some kind of fusible links back at the batteries?...or is it just plainly a dumb idea to separate bat from contactor? >> >> Would not the feeders to the (hot) battery busses carry the same risks? >> >> (Bob writes).... Let's get the numbers and all the players identified >> first. I'm not so sure that you're rear-mounted batteries >> pose much of a design problem. > > That's good to hear... >> >> How many pumps? > > My engine is designed to run on one pump; I have a back up pump as well; each pump has it's own filter; the back up is intended to handle failure or clogging of the first pump. The hi pressure pumps draw 5.7 amps each. Both pumps should be able to be energized by either battery...and...it seems to me that I should want to toggle switch from one pump to the other. > >> Dual fuel injectors? Seems unlikely. > > My engine is MPEFI; it has 4 fuel injectors...each one draws between 1 and 2 amps. > > Would a photo or two of my engine be useful? > >> You said you have one plug per cylinder . . . but >> if you have a distributor-less system, then you have >> coil-paks that do not lend themselves neatly to >> combining dual ignition through high voltage diodes >> like the Corvair guys do. > > Though I drove one years ago, (a '65 convertible), I have no idea how the conversion guys are setting it up. My engine has 4 coils...all together they draw 8 amps. > > My engine has dual electronic ignition thanks to (I believe) dual Hall effect sensors...I don't know what, if any, their current draw is. > > My engine alternator is rated at 55 amps. >> >> So draw a box with a propeller on it and identify >> each device that consumes power in order to keep >> the engine running. Differentiate which items are >> use in 'normal mode', which are used in 'backup mode' >> and which are used in both modes. > > Will do...here's how I see it...to keep the prop spinning, I need: > > 1. The ECU (normal)...it has 3 power feeds...one for the "box" drawing 0.5 amps...one for the fuel injectors drawing 4 to 8 amps...and one for the coils drawing 8 amps (continuous...but engine guy sez during start up, draw could spike momentarily to 20 amps). Total continuous load: 16.5 amps. > > ECU (back up): It contains a duplicate motherboard accessed via a toggle switch on the control panel...no change in electrical load. > > 2. One serviceable fuel pump w/ an unclogged filter. Fuel pump draws 5.7 amps. > > Fuel pump (back up): I have a second pump (same rating as first) w/ separate filter. > > I BELIEVE that's all I need to keep the engine running...total load: 22.2 amps. (Round it up to say 25 amps?...what have I missed?) > > If this electrical load for the engine is routed thru a (always hot?) battery bus, > would we then want to tally up additional loads on an endurance bus as a back up to everything deemed essential which would be normally drawing from the EXP Bus in the event that the EXP fizzles? > > And how do we provide the juice if the alternator fizzles as well? > > Note: regarding batteries: the Odyssey PC680 capacity is 16 ah, providing 24 "reserve minutes @ 25 amps"...see: > http://www.odysseybatteries.com/mainpages/batteries.htm > Assuming dual batteries and both battery states of 75%, I figure 24 ah available which would give 36 "reserve minutes" @ 25 amp draw. > > Does that sound right to you?...or am I getting way ahead of myself? > > Fred > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:17:45 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: New electrical architecture with ENGINE BUS From: "user9253" Attached is an electrical drawing with an ENGINE BUS. It is designed to be used with engines that rely on aircraft electrical power. It is not for my airplane (which is already flying) or for anyone in particular. Feel free to criticize, comment, or make suggestions or improvements. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410542#410542 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/engine_bus_604.pdf ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:27:47 PM PST US From: Peter Pengilly Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EXP 2 Bus workaround Pictures uploaded here This has been in my aeroplane for 12 years - so is a little the worse for wear! Peter On 14/10/2013 15:37, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 06:06 PM 10/13/2013, you wrote: >> Bob...I wrote, >> >> Yes...a printed schematic is available: >> >> http://support.anywheremap.net/pdfs/EXP2-C.pdf >> >> >> I've been referring to the diagram labeled "Typical Installation; >> External Solenoid" >> >> Also, there is a diagram depicting a Subaru installation w/ 2 >> circuits set up for a back up battery connection; however, I've given >> scant attention to it because I have no reason to believe that it >> addresses is:sues related to fuel injection: >> >> http://support.anywheremap.net/pdfs/expsub.PDF >> >> >> ...hope this is useful to your anlysis... > > Yeah, I think I have everything I need, > Your pictures and Peter's will round out > my manufacturer's data base on this product. > > All I need now is your summation of electrical > loads needed to keep the engine running and > their hierarchy. > > > Bob . . . > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:53:52 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EXP 2 Bus workaround On Oct 14, 2013, at 12:16 PM, Ken wrote: > You are in the ballpark Fred but it's probably safe to round down to 20 amps for a no alternator battery life calculation. Ken...thank you for your "3rd party validation"...at this stage of the game, I'd rather be conservative, and I'm looking forward to Bob's assessment. Fred ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:17:31 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New electrical architecture with ENGINE BUS From: Fred Klein Joe...(even) I see many attributes in your diagram...thank you. Am I write in surmising that my EXP Bus could serve as the Main Power Distribution Bus? If I understand correctly, the only items on the Endurance Bus would be be desirable things like intercom, some overhead lighting, xpndr, maybe COM, as long as the load does not exceed 3-4 amps. How would you feel about your diagram if the 2 battery contactors were mounted on the engine side of the firewall? Fred On Oct 14, 2013, at 1:56 PM, user9253 wrote: > > Attached is an electrical drawing with an ENGINE BUS. It is designed to be used with engines that rely on aircraft electrical power. It is not for my airplane (which is already flying) or for anyone in particular. Feel free to criticize, comment, or make suggestions or improvements. > Joe > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410542#410542 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/engine_bus_604.pdf > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:32:47 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: New electrical architecture with ENGINE BUS From: "user9253" > Am I right in surmising that my EXP Bus could serve as the Main Power Distribution Bus? Yes, but the EXP Bus should not shut off battery contactors that supply power to the engine bus. And it is safer to have the master relay located close to the power source rather than inside of the EXP Bus. Try to keep smoke on the other side of the firewall away from you. > If I understand correctly, the only items on the Endurance Bus would be be desirable things like intercom, some overhead lighting, xpndr, maybe COM, as long as the load does not exceed 3-4 amps. You have the right idea. Whatever devices are important to you can be connected to the E-Bus. The total E-Bus load is a matter of personal preference as long as the circuit is designed to carry the load. I think that up to 10 amps is reasonable. A relay can be used to handle heavier loads. > How would you feel about your diagram if the 2 battery contactors were mounted on the engine side of the firewall? It is much safer to disconnect the power as close to the source as possible in the event of an electrical fire or imminent forced landing. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410565#410565 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:28:06 PM PST US From: "R. curtis" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: New electrical architecture with ENGINE BUS >> Am I right in surmising that my EXP Bus could serve as the Main Power >> Distribution Bus? > > Yes, but the EXP Bus should not shut off battery contactors that supply > power to the engine bus. And it is safer to have the master relay located > close to the power source rather than inside of the EXP Bus. Try to keep > smoke on the other side of the firewall away from you. Battery power for the engine ignition and fuel pumps should not go through a contactor. This power should come directly from the battery bus, which is hard wired directly to the battery. This will give you fewer components in the line and less chance of failure. Roger -- Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:06:45 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: iPad Charger From: speedy11@aol.com I saw this charger on Amazon. I don't know if it is robust enough for our aerial needs, but it sounds suitable. Stan Sutterfield Do not archive Anker=C2=AE 18W / 2.4A + 2.0A (3.6A max) Dual Port USB Car Charger for Appl e Android and USB-Charing Devices - The First and Smallest Adapter to Provi de Simultaneous, Full-Speed Charges to iPads and Smartphones ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:22:41 PM PST US From: "Sacha" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: New electrical architecture with ENGINE BUS > Attached is an electrical drawing with an ENGINE BUS. Joe, I know this has been addressed on the list before, but can you remind me what software you use to produce such drawings? Regards, Sacha ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:11:07 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: New electrical architecture with ENGINE BUS On Oct 14, 2013, at 7:08 PM, R. curtis wrote: > Battery power for the engine ignition and fuel pumps should not go through a contactor. This power should come directly from the battery bus, which is hard wired directly to the battery. This will give you fewer components in the line and less chance of failure. Roger...as I read Joe's hypothetical "dual battery - single alternator" circuit diagram, the two power feeds from the dual batteries both go thru the contactors...I gather that whatever chance of failure this presents is mitigated by having the dual feeds. Good point. As I read Z-19, the two battery busses are both fed directly from the batteries rather than allowing the power to be dependent upon functioning contactors. thanks, Fred ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.