---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 10/21/13: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:56 AM - Re: Jabiru 2200 voltage regulator again (Earl Juno) 2. 10:00 AM - Relay_for_Critical_Power_Feed (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 12:28 PM - Re: Jabiru 2200 voltage regulator again (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 12:53 PM - Re: Re: Relay for Critical Power Feed (rayj) 5. 12:55 PM - EXP 2 Bus workaround (Fred Klein) 6. 01:14 PM - VM1000C Manual (Jerald Folkerts) 7. 01:28 PM - Re: Relay_for_Critical_Power_Feed (rayj) 8. 01:46 PM - Re: elec. noise in antennas (Fred Klein) 9. 03:13 PM - Mag grounding (donjohnston) 10. 04:35 PM - Re: Mag grounding (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 04:35 PM - Re: elec. noise in antennas (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 04:45 PM - Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 04:47 PM - Re: Relay_for_Critical_Power_Feed (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 05:06 PM - Re: Relay_for_Critical_Power_Feed (rayj) 15. 09:59 PM - Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (Fred Klein) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:56:46 AM PST US From: Earl Juno Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Jabiru 2200 voltage regulator again I know a number of us would like to improve the Rotax regs... Please continue! Thanks. > On Oct 20, 2013, at 3:37 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > > >> >> Further study shows that Q1 and Q2 are to light a low voltage lite and are not part of a differential amplifier. Q3 and Q4 are for the regulator. My comment about the current limit on the zener still stands. circuit is from: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/PM_Regulator/Kubota_Schematic.jpg > > Yes, the circuit was dissected into two > functions at: > > http://tinyurl.com/c8usyw2 > > http://tinyurl.com/c6doa97 > > . . . and you're right. The base-emitter junction of > Q4 in series with the hopefully small dynamic resistance > of the zener places the transistor at serious risk. This design > would not even come close to passing DO160 input voltage > tests. But then, not many garden tractors are subject > to the kinds of trash on the bus as airplanes. > > I've not seen a schematic for a PM regulator that > offers warm-fuzzy feelings to an airplane jockey. > These bang-bang regulators have proven quite sufficient > for the lawn equipment markets and few folks have > complained about them in airplanes . . . at least > few to none here on the List. They may have a field > service history one step above dismal but not articulated > here. > > If you're pondering a DIY project for a PM regulator, > consider adding some impedance in series with the > base of Q4. It doesn't need to be very big. The way > this thing is wired, the zener's operating current > is VERY low . . . a milliamp or less. Also poor design > practice . . . this is not up on the knee for predictable > conduction at the rated voltage. So 100 ohms in series > would protect the transistor and have very little > effect on regulation. > > An adjustable regulator might modify the input circuit > to include a potentiometer which would add useful > base current protection for Q4. If you're up to brass-boarding > some experiments, I've had a few ideas for an upgrading > of the circuit's performance. > > > Bob . . . > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:00:35 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Relay_for_Critical_Power_Feed Fooey, Seems I'm having difficulties with integration of my email and image editing tools and the List-Server. I can email myself and the message comes through as expected in both Eudora and Outlook . . . but there appears to be a disconnect with the List Server. Here's a .pdf of the message with missing images. I'll get with Matt to see if we can resolve the issues. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:28:49 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Jabiru 2200 voltage regulator again At 08:54 AM 10/21/2013, you wrote: > > >I know a number of us would like to improve the Rotax regs... >Please continue! Thanks. Okay. The attached schematic is for a voltage regulator (I'd leave that semi-worthless alt failure warn out). Design goals: Adjustable voltage regulation set point. Improved thermal management Tolerance to DO-160 abnormal voltage inputs This would perform no better than the stock Rotax- Ducati regulator except for design goals stated. The second schematic deletes two transistors. A first pass at the LM431 specs suggests that the two extra stages of gain may not be necessary. A couple of experiments worth exploring . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:53:00 PM PST US From: rayj Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Relay for Critical Power Feed ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:55:46 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: AeroElectric-List: EXP 2 Bus workaround All, I would first of all like to thank all posters who have expanded my understanding of the issues I face as I proceed w/ the wiring of my aircraft...you have already helped me immeasurably to get to the revised (proposed) circuit diagram below. (I'm quite aware that "numbers" are still missing...but my preference is to get my mind wrapped around the conceptual basis for things before sizing wires.) With full knowledge of my ignorance of all things electric but with only scant knowledge of the challenges which lay ahead, some time ago I purchased an EXP 2 Bus, thinking that having one would simplify many issues and offset some of the novelty inherent with my auto engine conversion, a MPEFIed derivative of a EA81 Subaru built by RAM Performance Aero Engines which is liquid cooled. Aircraft is a Europa XS monowheel, a fiber glass airframe, which is typically powered w/ a 912S or 914. I've been struggling to layout a circuit diagram which combines the EXP 2 BUS configured for an external solenoid with the dual battery / single alternator diagram Z-19 in the "AeroElectric Connection". I have made a number of decisions which have committed me to the digital world including: - an engine w/ electronic ignition, fuel injection, and an ECU (EC3, Real World Systems) which came w/ the engine, - a digital EMS (EM3, Real World Systems) which "talks" w/ the ECU, - a digital EFIS (Skyview) including moving map, digital terrain, Transponder, COM, and Intercom. By selecting an auto engine conversion, I have committed to: - one alternator, belt driven, - one coolant pump, belt driven, - single spark plug in each cylinder. Additionally, in order to provide redundancy, the engine and control system includes: - dual batteries, presently planned to be Odyssey 680's, - two independent high pressure fuel pumps, each w/ their own filter, - independent back up battery for Skyview, - independent back up battery for stand-alone GPS, Garmin 396, - redundant motherboards (A and B) for the ECU which are toggled from the panel. OK...about the EXP BUS...I've now read many reports (including the VAF threads) which point out its shortcomings...but having spent $550 for it and its companion Indicator Module, and given my inexperience and lack of knowledge of things electrical, I still believe it has a place in my panel, so I hope any critique of what I'm up to doesn't focus on simply getting rid of it...it sure seems to have value to this electrical neophyte. The EXP 2 Bus installation instructions can be downloaded at: http://support.anywheremap.com/pdfs/EXP2-C.pdf My approach to creating this circuit diagram has been an effort to meld together the EXP Bus w/ the Z-19RB circuit diagram in the AeroElectric Connection for "Dual Battery, Single Alternator, Electronic Controlled Fuel Injection Engine w/ Rear Mounted Batteries"...(a copy of which can be downloaded from: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/ I could use spare circuits in EXP BUS for the ECU, coils, fuel injectors, and the fuel pumps, but I like the idea of being able to turn off the master and keep the fan turning...therefore I have these components powered via an Engine Bus. I have space on my panel (just above the EXP BUS, and below the Skyview flat screen) for a row of 6 - switches which are presently planned to be: - rocker or toggle between Fuel Pump #1 and Fuel Pump #2, - Endurance Bus Alternate feed, on/off - Battery #2, on/off - ECU, on/off - Fuel Injectors, on/off - Coils, on/off I also have space on my panel (between the COM/Intercom and the ECU controller) for a row or two of CBs or fuses. Attached are pixs of my instrument panel in its present state, and a proposed circuit diagram. The intention of the circuit diagram is to show: - 2 batteries wired as one to allow staggered battery replacement to ensure one of the two is relatively new and in excellent condition, - EXP Bus to function as the main power distribution bus, powered from Contactor #1 which is controlled by a master switch, - Starter powered from Contactor #2 so that in-flight re-start is possible w/ master off, - Engine Bus (always hot) wired directly to the "battery side" of Contactor #2 Note: For purposes of maintaining proper C of G, batteries and contactors will be aft of the cabin. I'd be extraordinarily grateful for any comments, and particularly those which point out errors or weakness in the diagram or the conceptual framework which the diagram is intended to address. Fred ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:14:56 PM PST US From: "Jerald Folkerts" Subject: AeroElectric-List: VM1000C Manual I'm looking for a copy of the user/installation manual for the older (pre-JPI) version of the VM1000C Engine Monitor. Please contact me offline at jfolkerts1@gmail.com Thanks, Jerry Folkerts ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:28:01 PM PST US From: rayj Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Relay_for_Critical_Power_Feed Bob, FYI, The email you attached as a PDF came through to me as an email without any problems. do not archive Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 10/21/2013 11:58 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > Fooey, > > Seems I'm having difficulties with integration of my > email and image editing tools and the List-Server. > I can email myself and the message comes through as > expected in both Eudora and Outlook . . . but there > appears to be a disconnect with the List Server. > > Here's a .pdf of the message with missing images. > I'll get with Matt to see if we can resolve the > issues. > > > Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:46:48 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: elec. noise in antennas Last week I wrote: >> I have been diligent in separating antenna wiring from power wiring...in my fiberglass airframe, I molded in conduits along the sides of the fuselage...all power wiring on the port side...antenna wiring and pneumatics on starboard. >> >> My port conduit is getting pretty filled, and I have ample space in the stbd conduit. ...and Bob N. responded by writing: > There is no demonstrable value in separating antenna > coax wires and other ship's wiring. The idea that > 'noise' escapes ships wiring to invade the inner-sanctum > of your coax is a poplar myth morphed into sage advice. This leads me to another question: With my battery aft of the cabin, if I put my starter feeder in my starboard conduit and my battery ground wire in my port conduit, will the SEPARATION of these two (most probably 4AWG) wires cause any problems? (I have one "advisor", a marine electrician, who is adamant that separating those feeders will cause all manner of hurt in the form of magnetic fields) (I know nothing about magnetic fields, but it would seem to me that separation of those wires would have zero consequences when the starter is NOT engaged.) Fred ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:13:34 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Mag grounding From: "donjohnston" I'm in the process of hooking up the mag switches. My mags don't have a dedicated ground terminal. Is it standard practice to use one of the case screws? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411027#411027 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/mags_140.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/mags_164.jpg ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:35:57 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Mag grounding At 05:12 PM 10/21/2013, you wrote: > >I'm in the process of hooking up the mag switches. My mags don't >have a dedicated ground terminal. > >Is it standard practice to use one of the case screws? That works. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:35:57 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: elec. noise in antennas >With my battery aft of the cabin, if I put my starter feeder in my >starboard conduit and my battery ground wire in my port conduit, >will the SEPARATION of these two (most probably 4AWG) wires cause any problems? >(I have one "advisor", a marine electrician, who is adamant that >separating those feeders will cause all manner of hurt in the form >of magnetic fields) He is correct. Magnetic fields formed by OUTBOUND electron flow in a wire is best managed by bringing the INBOUND electrons on an adjacent wire . . . twisted with it if practical but just getting the close an a parallel as practical is good. >(I know nothing about magnetic fields, but it would seem to me that >separation of those wires would have zero consequences when the >starter is NOT engaged.) Alternator currents flow on those wires too during recharge. About 20 years ago I talked with a guy at OSH who had one of the Rutan Ez models. Seems hitting starter spun his compass like a top and turning the alternator on and off would swing the compass to the tune of 20 degrees or more. This has been a problem in steel tube aircraft but especially composites. Do what you can to keep these two conductors as parallel and adjacent as practical. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:45:55 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EXP 2 Bus workaround At 02:46 PM 10/21/2013, you wrote: >All, > > I would first of all like to thank all posters who have > expanded my understanding of the issues I face as I proceed w/ the > wiring of my aircraft...you have already helped me immeasurably to > get to the revised (proposed) circuit diagram below. I have pondered your project while plowing the asphalt between here an Wichita for two round trips . . . and made some notes. I'll be publishing my recommendations (as if it were my airplane) in the next day or so. We'll be able to integrate the EXP-Bus with some degree of grace. I can find no reason to run two batteries in your project. The disparity of endurance demands between the e-bus and engine-bus leaves watt-seconds left over on the e-bus . . . which means your panel is still lit after the engine quits. My proposal will used the existing 'master' switch in the legacy task. The avionics master will be come the e-bus alternate feed. We'll create an engine bus very much like the e-bus with a diode feed from the main bus for normal ops and and a fat alternate feed from the battery like the e-bus. This means you can trade second battery and contactor weight in for a larger main battery that will make your planning and maintenance for Plan-B contingencies much simpler, longer endurance and more reliable. Tell me about your fuel pumps. What controls or limits their pressure? By the way, what is the operating pressure for the system? Still wondering about A/B ECU boards. Can you leave them powered up and simply select between A and B from the control panel. Does an ECU NOT selected draw the same current as the one presently selected? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:47:21 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Relay_for_Critical_Power_Feed At 03:21 PM 10/21/2013, you wrote: >Bob, > >FYI, The email you attached as a PDF came through to me as an email >without any problems. thanks. attachments seem to be fine . . . just embedded images get hosed. Using the embedded image really makes a narrative read better. I need to get this fixed. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:06:41 PM PST US From: rayj Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Relay_for_Critical_Power_Feed The images came through embedded in the original email. It looked exactly like the PDF that was attached to this email. do not archive Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 10/21/2013 06:47 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 03:21 PM 10/21/2013, you wrote: >> Bob, >> >> FYI, The email you attached as a PDF came through to me as an email >> without any problems. > > > thanks. attachments seem to be fine . . . just embedded images > get hosed. Using the embedded image really makes a narrative > read better. I need to get this fixed. > > > Bob . . . > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:59:31 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EXP 2 Bus workaround On Oct 21, 2013, at 4:45 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > I can find no reason to run two batteries in your project. The > disparity of endurance demands between the e-bus and engine-bus > leaves watt-seconds left over on the e-bus . . . which means > your panel is still lit after the engine quits. Bob... I'm really surprised to here you say that...I've really bought into your rationale for having 2 batteries of equal size so they can be rotated out one at a time, raising the probability that one is always (relatively) new...as for my endurance bus, I'd love to add my COM to it. I think your rationale as I read it in the Connection is especially appropriate for an engine which can't rely upon mags. 'I'll get answers for your other questions tomorrow... Thanks for your insights into my installation, Fred ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.