---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 10/22/13: 24 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:14 AM - Re: Jabiru 2200 voltage regulator again (Sacha) 2. 12:25 AM - Unshielded wire for mags? (Sacha) 3. 06:40 AM - hypothetical question (user9253) 4. 07:04 AM - Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 07:23 AM - Re: Copper Foil width for VOR antenna (p32gxy) 6. 07:49 AM - Re: Jabiru 2200 voltage regulator again (Dr. Andrew Elliott) 7. 08:03 AM - Re: Jabiru 2200 voltage regulator again (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 08:07 AM - Re: Unshielded wire for mags? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 08:20 AM - Re: Jabiru 2200 voltage regulator again (Charles Deiterich) 10. 08:22 AM - Re: hypothetical question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 08:41 AM - Re: Re: Copper Foil width for VOR antenna (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 08:50 AM - EXP 2 Bus workaround (Fred Klein) 13. 08:56 AM - Landing gear warning trigger (donjohnston) 14. 09:48 AM - Re: Odyssey Batteries (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 09:57 AM - Re: Landing gear warning trigger (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us) 16. 10:10 AM - Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 17. 10:20 AM - Re: Landing gear warning trigger (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 18. 11:46 AM - Good guys in blue hats coming over the hill . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 19. 12:52 PM - Re: Landing gear warning trigger (donjohnston) 20. 01:11 PM - Re: Re: Landing gear warning trigger (James Kilford) 21. 01:20 PM - Re: Re: Landing gear warning trigger (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us) 22. 03:58 PM - Re: Landing gear warning trigger (donjohnston) 23. 04:35 PM - Re: Re: Landing gear warning trigger (Jared Yates) 24. 04:38 PM - Re: Re: Landing gear warning trigger () ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:14:49 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Jabiru 2200 voltage regulator again From: Sacha > This would perform no better than the stock Rotax- > Ducati regulator except for design goals stated. Bob, Assume you mean "no worse" in the sentence above ;) Would you recommend switching out a Ducati regulator that's already installed (Kitfox, Rotax 912, VFR Only)? Sacha ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:25:53 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Unshielded wire for mags? From: Sacha What are the potential unwanted consequence of using unshielded wire for wiring mags switches? I just realized that's how my Kitfox is wired up but I can't hear any particular interference in the headsets so far. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:40:44 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: hypothetical question From: "user9253" I recently had a conversation with a pal who's had a solid background in marine electrical/electronic work...a long time successful business after getting started in the USN. We discussed wiring a hypothetical fiberglass airplane with a rear mounted battery. I suggested running battery cables in integrated fiberglass conduit with positive cables to starboard and negative to port side. He claims that would be a big "no-no" as it would set up a powerful magnetic field which would cause mayhem w/ radios. Unfortunately he did not have time to elaborate on the mayhem. I disagreed with his statement. I think there could be some noise on the radio while cranking the engine, but that is of short duration. Is there a real disadvantage to running positive wires on one side of the fuselage and negative wires on the other side? Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411074#411074 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:37 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EXP 2 Bus workaround At 11:57 PM 10/21/2013, you wrote: On Oct 21, 2013, at 4:45 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: I can find no reason to run two batteries in your project. The disparity of endurance demands between the e-bus and engine-bus leaves watt-seconds left over on the e-bus . . . which means your panel is still lit after the engine quits. Bob... I'm really surprised to here you say that...I've really bought into your rationale for having 2 batteries of equal size so they can be rotated out one at a time, raising the probability that one is always (relatively) new...as for my endurance bus, I'd love to add my COM to it. I think your rationale as I read it in the Connection is especially appropriate for an engine which can't rely upon mags. I understand. It would help to review the history of the two-battery concept: The simplest, most reliable batteries are those which receive periodic critical attention, like pre-flight checks for fuel, oil, tire tread, controls, etc. The battery is this smooth plastic box hidden away out of sight and offers no observable data on it's state of charge or ability to even take a charge. Obviously, we cannot pre-flight a battery with the same level of confidence as pulling out the dipstick to check oil. But we do know that batteries tend to fail gracefully, sorta like the degradation of compression with the service time on an engine or tread wear with numbers of landings on tires. It is sufficient to check your compression every annual (~50 hrs for average light aircraft) or get out the tread wear gauge when the tires are "looking a bit skinny". Delving into the inner secrets of a battery is a process with more complexity and requiring more tools than peeking into a fuel tank or wiggling the stick to make sure controls are intact and free. The first driver for considering dual batteries was to eliminate or at least shift the cost of ownership for periodic polygraph testing of the battery. The idea was simply cycle a new battery into a pair of batteries every annual. The rationale for that philosophy was based on the owner/operator's willingness and dedication to the task of tracking the battery's condition. If you take the total cost of owning your airplane and divide by hours flown, you come up with some number. Rotating a new battery into the top of a pair each annual will add (cost-of-battery/hours-flown) to that other number. For many, the $time$ spent on doing a battery change-out was more attractive than taxation of $time$ to do the periodic battery polygraph. A second benefit of the dual battery architecture was that it clearly divided endurance calculations, planing and management into to camps. (1) engine and (2) everything else that influenced battery-only flying time. When I introduced the e-bus concept 20+ years ago, it was no big deal to craft a Plan-B wherein electrical system endurance exceeded fuel endurance. The people-paid-to-worry about airplanes tell us that for the most part, 30 minutes of battery-only endurance is enough. Perhaps so for the wizened ATP pilot with 10,000 hours and a host of successfully managed tense days in the cockpit. But for John Q fliver-flyer with 600 hours, no intensive training in airborne systems management and only flies 50-100 hours a year . . . it's another matter entirely. Hence my personal design goals for seeking ways to assemble, maintain and operate systems with considerably more than 30 minutes of battery-only performance . . . preferably some number than exceeds duration of fuel aboard. So, in 4-5 hours of pondering your system here on the List and on the road, I've divided your battery only requirements into two piles. (1) no-options loads like keeping the fires behind the prop lit and (2) lighting up things on the panel that are most useful for continued cruising flight until a CONVENIENT, or better yet, airport of intended destination is in sight. As a renter of certified airplanes, my personal plan-B planning, maintenance and operation is necessarily limited to stuff I carry in my flight bag. In other words, from J3 to A36 Bonanza, I have no control over the airplane so I plan to get where I want to go wether the panel is lit up or not. Now, you've got an engine that we THINK takes about 10A to run. Getting one hour of endurance requires a single battery having about 20 a.h. capacity (when new) at the 20 hour rate. We know that failure to benefit from ALL of a battery's potential energy is a function of the battery's internal resistance. So the proportion of energy tossed off internally at any given discharge rate is less if the battery is up-sized. Another consideration for your airplane is the value of partitioning system power into two tasks (1) truly essential - keeping the engine running and (2) optional - things on the panel. Okay, how does the Plan-B picture change if your airplane is fitting with one, larger battery. Several ways: First there is more incentive to KNOW the state of your battery's health. This means $time$ required for the periodic electrograph as a preventative maintenance policy on the airplane. But if you ran nothing but the engine during no-alternator-ops, then the larger single battery maximizes your endurance numbers into something far more comfortable than that 30-minute thingy the paid-to-worry crowd is so comfortable with . . . but then, NONE of those folks are going to fly YOUR airplane. Next, with one battery, you have the option of turning OFF things that influence your endurance capabilities . . . especially if those capabilities are backed up by Plan-B1 hardware in the flight bag. So if your desired destination is only an hour away, leave all that stuff on. But you have the option of getting 2 hours plus endurance too. Finally, this line of reasoning offers a much simpler array of switches for which in-flight decisions must be made. It offers a relatively clean way to integrate the EXP-Bus into to final design. So armed with knowledge of battery condition, time to fly to an airport of convenience then you can simply choose what things on the panel will be lit up or shut down. Maybe you can go max-dark and fly hand-held until time for descent and approach whereupon you turn things back on. In this mode of flight, the only thing other than engine specific loads would be a voltmeter. Based on this recent line of reasoning, I'm wondering if elegance level Z-19 is really as cool as I thought when the drawing was crafted some years ago. It is perhaps and example of the "too soon we get old, too late we get smart" syndrome. But if that question in going to get answered, I doubt that it will happen more expeditiously than here on the List . . . and you (along with your airplane) may be the impetus for the effort. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:23:19 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Copper Foil width for VOR antenna From: "p32gxy" Just an update... I am currently pursuing a loop antenna made out of Coax which allows me to reduce it's size somewhat. I am looking at placing this antenna inside the fuselage tailcone (all composite) and avoid the complications associated with placing the VOR antenna in the wing. I've ordered an VHF/UHF Vector Antenna Analyzer to tune this guy in place. I am hoping that this "experiment" will go well. Thanks everyone for your suggestions/comments. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411083#411083 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:49:12 AM PST US From: "Dr. Andrew Elliott" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Jabiru 2200 voltage regulator again Just some additional options - I am running an 18A John Deere PM alternator in my plane and am using an aftermarket voltage regulator designed for Harley. Nearly all motorcycles use PM alternators, and these days cycles have all the fancy electronics like a plane or car. Plus the regulators are designed to survive in a very hostile environment. There are a number of good brands out there, including Accel, Crane, Compu-Fire, Cycle Electric and others. (Of course, there are also low-quality Chinese knock-offs, so buyer beware!) My Crane Cams "Fireball" regulator is mounted behind the firewall, directly on the metal side skin, so it can use some of that that as additional cooling surface. The regulator runs through the B&C PM/OV Filter & Protection kit (504-1). I have about 5 years and 550 hours on the plane, mostly in the Arizona desert, with no problems at all in the electrical system, FWIW. Andy ------------------------ Andy Elliott, CL:480-695-9568 N601GE/Z601XL/TD/Corvair 525 hrs since 11/08 Web Site Link ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:03:28 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Jabiru 2200 voltage regulator again At 02:13 AM 10/22/2013, you wrote: > This would perform no better than the stock Rotax- > Ducati regulator except for design goals stated. Bob, Assume you mean "no worse" in the sentence above ;) Either. The modification will leave regulator performance unchanged. But utility is improved with adjustability and reliability is probably improved by more robust management of BTUs and abnormal bus voltages. Would you recommend switching out a Ducati regulator that's already installed (Kitfox, Rotax 912, VFR Only)? I don't think so. It's sorta like that discussion we've had on el-cheapo contactors. The over all service life, cost of ownership and risk should drive the decision. At Beech, there were issues that rose to the top-ten list of field service issues. Those got red-team attention. Then there were things that generated ADs against the airplane. Those were tiger-team tasks. Stuff that didn't make the top ten were subject to economic triage and generally handled by competent and courteous field service reps. Many airplanes are flying this rectifier/regulator . . . the failure rate has bubbled up to at least nuisance levels for some individuals but perhaps not enough for red-team response by Rotax, Jariru, et. als. For some flyers of engines with PM alternators, it may be sufficient incentive for a re-invention this particular wheel. It's one of those self-interested, free-market exchange of value decisions. I don't see it as much of a risk issue. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:07:49 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Unshielded wire for mags? At 02:25 AM 10/22/2013, you wrote: > >What are the potential unwanted consequence of using unshielded wire >for wiring mags switches? >I just realized that's how my Kitfox is wired up but I can't hear >any particular interference in the headsets so far. All of the legacy prophylactics for noise abatement are based on stand-alone evaluation of one system's ability to generate noise verses the ability of other systems to provide satisfactory operation in the presence of noises that can never be zero. I believe that ignition wires on a Rotax are not nearly so prone to radiate noise as those on a legacy magneto. If you're not experiencing a problem, then your requirements to limit noise have not exceeded the limits established by potential victims of noise. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:20:43 AM PST US From: Charles Deiterich Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Jabiru 2200 voltage regulator again Bob,- =0A=0A=0ASorry for my ignorance, but how do I see your attachment? =0A=0AChuck D.=0A=0A=0A=0ATime: 12:28:49 PM PST US=0AFrom: "Robert L. Nucko lls, III" =0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Jabiru 2200 voltage regulator again=0A=0AAt 08:54 AM 10/21/2013, you wrote :=0A>=0A>=0A>I know a number of us would like to improve the Rotax regs... =0A>Please continue!- Thanks.=0A=0A- Okay. The attached schematic is for a voltage regulator=0A- (I'd leave that semi-worthless alt failure w arn out).=0A ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:22:42 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: hypothetical question Subject: AeroElectric-List: hypothetical question From: "user9253" I recently had a conversation with a pal who's had a solid background in marine electrical/electronic work...a long time successful business after getting started in the USN. We discussed wiring a hypothetical fiberglass airplane with a rear mounted battery. I suggested running battery cables in integrated fiberglass conduit with positive cables to starboard and negative to port side. He claims that would be a big "no-no" as it would set up a powerful magnetic field which would cause mayhem w/ radios. Unfortunately he did not have time to elaborate on the mayhem. I disagreed with his statement. I think there could be some noise on the radio while cranking the engine, but that is of short duration. Is there a real disadvantage to running positive wires on one side of the fuselage and negative wires on the other side? Joe He's right. Noise is a dynamic thing. I.e. AC or at least modulated DC currents which generate in turn, modulated magnetic fields. An up-the-right, down=the-left configuration of fat wires forms the primary of a transformer. All potential victims situated in the 'core' of that primary WIll be influenced. Whether it's enough to be noticed is a guess. But we DO know that devices that measure static magnetics like your whisky compass and/or magnetometers are the most vulnerable. The management of noise-bearing conductors is simple-idea science irrespective of the conductor's role as potential antagonist or victim. Designing for cancellation of influence or vulnerabilities using the benefits of twisted pairs or at least parallel conductors is inarguable. That's why the earliest single-wire telephone systems working against earth ground would pick up static from local thunderstorms and became unusable if the poles were shared by AC power transmission lines. When the phone company adopted end-to-end, parallel/twisted pair topology, your phone wires could traverse the worst of noise environments with little or no effect. This is why audio systems with parallel-concentric signal paths would probably operate well within such a loop. But the compass instrumentation is another matter. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:41:25 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Copper Foil width for VOR antenna At 09:22 AM 10/22/2013, you wrote: Just an update... I am currently pursuing a loop antenna made out of Coax which allows me to reduce it's size somewhat. I am looking at placing this antenna inside the fuselage tailcone (all composite) and avoid the complications associated with placing the VOR antenna in the wing. I've ordered an VHF/UHF Vector Antenna Analyzer to tune this guy in place. I am hoping that this "experiment" will go well. Thanks everyone for your suggestions/comments. Look up loop antennas in the forums, websites and journals for amateur radio enthusiasts. Loop antennas can be adequate if not stellar performers. But as Robert Heinlein once penned, "their ain't no such thing as a free lunch". Generally, any physical shortening of an antenna requires some "tuning" reactances in the form of inductors as loading coils or capacitors at the ends as tuning devices. These added devices alter the distribution of currents along your antenna's conductors is ways that are almost never beneficial. I recall that halo antennas for 2m were rather narrow banded . . . on a ham band that was 4/146 or +/- 1.5% wide. Your VOR 'halo' range of interest has a bandwidth of 113/10 or +/- 4.5% a bit worse. Fortunately, antennas for aviation are exceedingly forgiving . . . especially receiving antennas that watch 100W transmitters from line of sight distances. So getting your antenna centered on the range of interest for frequencies is task one. After that, making quantitative measurements of performance is at least tedious if not tricky. The analyzer will measure impedances that can be plotted over the range of interest but will be of no value for predicting performance. Probably the best thing a shade-tree pilot cum antenna designer can do is install the experiment. Go fly it. Then report performance based on experience with other antennas in rather broad terms of "works fine" or perhaps not. The time and effort that takes you from as assessment of "adequate" to a quantified plotting of one antenna against another is a really big jump. Please share your experiments and findings with us. Pictures are good too. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:50:29 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: AeroElectric-List: EXP 2 Bus workaround Bob, I appreciate your circumspection in taking another look at your twin battery rationale as you stated it in the Connection. And I wrestle with what I see as inherent contradictions in our quest for both fail-safe redundancy and simplicity...i.e., the more redundancy, the more complexity...fail-safe redundancy - good...increased complexity - not so much. A client of mine who certifies electrical and electronic systems for the big boys...I can't state his company's role or authority in the proper terminology...absolutely bemoans the aircraft industry's approach to solving problems in complex systems by adding another layer of complexity. Fred ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:19 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Landing gear warning trigger From: "donjohnston" I need a trigger device for my gear up warning. The landing gear controller typically uses a micro-switch that detects when the throttle is closed. The routing of my fuel pressure and manifold pressure lines is going to make the mount for such a switch very difficult. My A&P mentioned that some aircraft use an adjustable pressure sensor tied in to the manifold pressure line to accomplish this. I'm wondering if anyone knows of a pressure sensor like this. I'm also open to any other options that I can connect to the landing gear controller. Thanks, Don Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411104#411104 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:48:04 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Odyssey Batteries At 07:21 PM 10/21/2013, you wrote: Hi Bob, I took one of your seminars a few years ago at Ohio State University Airport and now I have my Wittman Tailwind flying in phase one testing. The problem I am having with an Oddessey battery PC925 is that it will not start my Lycoming O-320 when it got to the mid 40s in temperature overnight. I had the battery on a trickle charger overnight (Battery Tender brand) and it showed it had charged enough (green led on control unit). This is the second Oddessey battery I have had in the Tailwind, I had the previous one replaced under warranty in May. I need some guidance at troubleshooting this situation, when the battery was first installed, it cranked the engine well. It has gotten progressively slower at cranking despite being put on the trickle charger. Recently after it would not start early in the morning, I put it on the trickle charger and tried to start it again after lunch. It did start then, just barely, and then I ran the engine for about 15 minutes to warm up the oil. The engine has a 60 amp alternator (Nippon Denso) and the buss voltage on my GRT EIS was 14.2-14.4 volts as the engine was running. After the 15 minute run, I shut off the engine and tried to restart after a couple of minutes and the engine would not crank more than about 3 blades. I realize that it is unlikely that I got bad battery to replace a bad battery but I am not sure which component(s) to look at first. The battery, starter, wiring and alternator are all things that may be causing the problem but what to check first? Thanks for your help, this got a little longer than I intended. I agree that the likelihood of two bad batteries in a row is very low. It's likely that some COMBINATION of effects (voltage drops) are adding up to sabotage cranking performance. It's very difficult to do quantitative analysis of a cranking circuit using a starter as a load. Engine compression strokes and other variables in mechanical loads on starter make it impossible to use a digital meter to make any measurements . . . and still difficult with an analog instrument. Consider acquiring one of these tools from Harbor Freight. Emacs! http://tinyurl.com/3gnnwrt Cut the gator-clips off leaving about 6" of pigtails on each clip. Then install ring terminals on the remaining leads to the tester. Each terminal will get TWO wires, one FAT one for load, one small one for measuring voltage. Then bolt the black lead to your crankcase, the red lead to the UPSTREAM side of the starter contactor. Build a set of test leads for your multimeter long enough to read battery in tail while you are cranking knobs at the engine end of the airplane. Clip the voltmeter onto battery (-) and battery (+) in the tail. Turn off as many panel mounted electro-whizzies as possible . . . pull breakers/fuses if power switches are not part of the system. Turn battery switch ON. This should produce a voltage on the test set that is close to the battery voltage being read in the tail. Now, crank the handle up such that the ammeter shows some handy big number. 200A is good. Get a quick reading of battery volts and load-tester volts. The battery volts number should be commensurate with the battery's general health. I would guess some value over 10 volts. The DIFFERENCE between battery and tester volts is the value being LOST in all the cranking system current path. It should be no more than 1.0 volts. If greater, then leave voltmeter(+) attached to battery and move voltmeter (-) to the tester (+) terminal on the starter contactor. Repeat the 200A load event and measure the drop. Then move the voltmeter (-) back to the battery (-) and voltmeter(+) to the crankcase. Repeat the load event and measure the drop. This one should be MUCH lower than the hot-side drop measured above. These three measurements will first identify magnitude of drops fenced off into ground-side and hot-side circuits. This is the data which will guide your further investigation into sources of cranking path resistance. These may be combinations of contactors, terminals, wires and bolted joints. If the first measurement shows 1 volt or less of loss, the only remaining variables to investigate are starter contactor and/or starter performance. You could move starter(+) lead from the starter and bolt it to tester(+). Energize the starter contactor and apply 200A load. See what voltage is available to the starter at this load. As a general rule, there are no single sources of debilitating voltage drop. A single joint or contact set would burn up or at least get really hot at 200A load. My guess is that you're chasing a combination of drops, none great enough to get noticeably warm . . . but the sum total has crippled your otherwise capable battery/starter combination. When you're done with the testing, put some terminals on the pigtails for the gator-clips, bolt back onto the tester leads and cover with heat shrink. This will return your tester to useful battery testing service. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:57:11 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Landing gear warning trigger From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us Hi Don You can have a look at my throttle position sensor: http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=29497 Also have a look at the spring holding down the gear latch and the sensor for that. Ron Parigoris "donjohnston" > > > I need a trigger device for my gear up warning. The landing gear > controller typically uses a micro-switch that detects when the throttle is > closed. The routing of my fuel pressure and manifold pressure lines is > going to make the mount for such a switch very difficult. > > My A&P mentioned that some aircraft use an adjustable pressure sensor tied > in to the manifold pressure line to accomplish this. > > I'm wondering if anyone knows of a pressure sensor like this. > > I'm also open to any other options that I can connect to the landing gear > controller. > > Thanks, > Don > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411104#411104 > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:10:11 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EXP 2 Bus workaround At 10:49 AM 10/22/2013, you wrote: Bob, I appreciate your circumspection in taking another look at your twin battery rationale as you stated it in the Connection. And I wrestle with what I see as inherent contradictions in our quest for both fail-safe redundancy and simplicity...i.e., the more redundancy, the more complexity...fail-safe redundancy - good...increased complexity - not so much. I think the seeds of the dual-battery tree were planted by Lightspeed's early-on recommendations for a second, diode maintained battery to insure one source of power to a second ignition system. A client of mine who certifies electrical and electronic systems for the big boys...I can't state his company's role or authority in the proper terminology...absolutely bemoans the aircraft industry's approach to solving problems in complex systems by adding another layer of complexity. Sounds like a man who understands FMEA, MTBF and the value of simplicity in the practical world of human frailties. Unfortunately, a lot of public ignorance of risks exploited by Hollywood and driven by individuals-paid-to-worry . . . Emacs! Your friend sounds like a good resource to review ideas in this . . . what do I call it . . . critical review of what may have been an under-developed idea. Not necessarily a BAD idea but not the elegant solution. I'll try to get a drawing crafted to clarify my thoughts in a form suitable for fielding review by thoughtful observers. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:20:53 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Landing gear warning trigger At 10:55 AM 10/22/2013, you wrote: > >I need a trigger device for my gear up warning. The landing gear >controller typically uses a micro-switch that detects when the >throttle is closed. The routing of my fuel pressure and manifold >pressure lines is going to make the mount for such a switch very difficult. > >My A&P mentioned that some aircraft use an adjustable pressure >sensor tied in to the manifold pressure line to accomplish this. > >I'm wondering if anyone knows of a pressure sensor like this. > >I'm also open to any other options that I can connect to the landing >gear controller. > >Thanks, >Don > this seems a likely solution http://tinyurl.com/oehkzu9 http://tinyurl.com/ofemkra Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:46:44 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Good guys in blue hats coming over the hill . . . It will be interesting to watch the evolution and market experience with this battery. One wonders that given Boeing and Cessna's experiences . . . what makes these guys think they can stay up on the bull . . . Of course, that's probably what they said about Henry Ford . . . http://tinyurl.com/lsk7vbe Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:52:50 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Landing gear warning trigger From: "donjohnston" rparigoris wrote: > Hi Don > You can have a look at my throttle position sensor: > http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=29497 > Also have a look at the spring holding down the gear latch and the sensor for that. > Ron Parigoris Sorry... I should have been more clear. :( I'm using a push/pull cable with a knob. The only way (I can see) to detect the throttle position is with a switch at the engine end of the throttle cable. But thanks anyway. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411129#411129 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:11:24 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Landing gear warning trigger From: James Kilford Don, do you have a photo? That might prompt some solutions. James On 22 October 2013 20:51, donjohnston wrote: > don@velocity-xl.com> > > > rparigoris wrote: > > Hi Don > > You can have a look at my throttle position sensor: > > http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=29497 > > Also have a look at the spring holding down the gear latch and the > sensor for that. > > Ron Parigoris > > > Sorry... I should have been more clear. :( > > I'm using a push/pull cable with a knob. The only way (I can see) to > detect the throttle position is with a switch at the engine end of the > throttle cable. > > But thanks anyway. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411129#411129 > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 01:20:32 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Landing gear warning trigger From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us Hi Don I should have been more clear, I was hinting you could install a magnet somewhere and have it trigger a reed switch. Don't know if feasible. Home Depot sells rare earth magnets that are plenty strong with holes in the center. Ron P. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:58:24 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Landing gear warning trigger From: "donjohnston" > Don, do you have a photo? That might prompt some solutions. > > James Not sure that a photo would help here. There's nothing to take a picture of. rparigoris wrote: > Hi Don > I should have been more clear, I was hinting you could install a magnet somewhere and have it trigger a reed switch. Don't know if feasible. Home Depot sells rare earth magnets that are plenty strong with holes in the center. > Ron P. I have a standard push/pull cable. It's completely encased. The only place to attach anything would be at the end of the cable where it attaches to the air/throttle inlet control. Which, in my situation, there's no way to put a bracket to mount a switch or sensor to. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411149#411149 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 04:35:28 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Landing gear warning trigger From: Jared Yates Instead of throttle linkage position, could you use a manifold pressure transducer? On Oct 22, 2013, at 18:57, "donjohnston" wrote: > > >> Don, do you have a photo? That might prompt some solutions. >> >> James > > > Not sure that a photo would help here. There's nothing to take a picture of. > > > > rparigoris wrote: >> Hi Don >> I should have been more clear, I was hinting you could install a magnet somewhere and have it trigger a reed switch. Don't know if feasible. Home Depot sells rare earth magnets that are plenty strong with holes in the center. >> Ron P. > > > I have a standard push/pull cable. It's completely encased. The only place to attach anything would be at the end of the cable where it attaches to the air/throttle inlet control. Which, in my situation, there's no way to put a bracket to mount a switch or sensor to. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411149#411149 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 04:38:14 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Landing gear warning trigger Huh? The cable itself has to have a bracket to hold the external shell while the core moves freely. Why not attach the switch to that bracket and feed a slave rod to it from the arm of the "whatever" you are running. Still not enough information given. Again, a picture of your carb/servo/throttle body and cable attachment would help shed some light on the problem. -James -----Original Message----- From: donjohnston Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 5:57 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Landing gear warning trigger I have a standard push/pull cable. It's completely encased. The only place to attach anything would be at the end of the cable where it attaches to the air/throttle inlet control. Which, in my situation, there's no way to put a bracket to mount a switch or sensor to. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.