Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:20 AM - Re: Alternator without a Battery (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 06:52 AM - Re: Alternator without a Battery (Sacha)
3. 06:57 AM - Re: Landing gear warning trigger (donjohnston)
4. 08:10 AM - Re: Re: hypothetical question (John W Livingston)
5. 08:14 AM - Re: Re: Landing gear warning trigger (John W Livingston)
6. 08:19 AM - Re: hypothetical question (user9253)
7. 08:30 AM - Re: Re: Landing gear warning trigger ()
8. 09:11 AM - Battery charger/maintainers (Charles Brame)
9. 09:22 AM - Any French Electricians? (Dennis Johnson)
10. 09:53 AM - Re: Any French Electricians? (Peter Mather)
11. 09:58 AM - Re: Any French Electricians? (Sacha)
12. 10:04 AM - Re: Any French Electricians? (Sacha)
13. 10:17 AM - Re: Battery charger/maintainers (David Lloyd)
14. 10:21 AM - Re: Any French Electricians? (Peter Mather)
15. 10:31 AM - Re: Any French Electricians? (Thomas Barter)
16. 10:35 AM - Re: Any French Electricians? (Bob McCallum)
17. 10:40 AM - Re: Any French Electricians? (Eric Page)
18. 11:36 AM - Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (user9253)
19. 12:00 PM - Re: Re: Odyssey Batteries (Gordon Parker)
20. 12:18 PM - Re: Any French Electricians? (Dennis Johnson)
21. 12:39 PM - Re: Re: Odyssey Batteries (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
22. 12:52 PM - Re: Re: Odyssey Batteries (Gordon Parker)
23. 12:56 PM - Re: Battery charger/maintainers (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
24. 01:47 PM - Re: Re: Landing gear warning trigger (Ken)
25. 03:05 PM - Re: Battery charger/maintainers (Ralph Finch)
26. 03:10 PM - Re: Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (Fred Klein)
27. 08:12 PM - Re: Alternator without a Battery (Richard Girard)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator without a Battery |
At 08:18 PM 10/23/2013, you wrote:
<tomblejwas@yahoo.com>
In designing the electrical system for my Zenith Zodiac with a Viking
engine, I thought I would start with Z-19 and modify - add OVP for
the alternator, a relay to prevent run-on of the starter, and maybe
more. Recent discussions on this site about contactors and the Z-19
philosophy have me rethinking things.
Good critical review is always a good thing, if only
to confirm the validity of our faith in legacy
philosophies. Such confirmation fosters understanding.
Also, the Viking has an alternator that can run without a
battery. I remember driving an overloaded old Dodge Colt on a long
evening trip (Christmas eve) and having the headlights go dimmer and
dimmer. Fortunately, I made it to a gas station next to a motel,
because the battery that had easily started the engine 4 hours
earlier was very shorted. (I was able to get a used battery
installed on Christmas Day by a great farmer with a tow truck.). Why
don't we worry about this in airplanes? Shouldn't we be able to
fully disconnect the battery or batteries, if the alternator can run
without a battery?
. . . the Barons and Bonanzas do it, perhaps other airplanes
too. Your mission, if you choose to accept it, is to evaluate
the science and risks for adopting this philosophy yourself.
A discussion and study of stand-alone alternator operation
would be a good thing.
Bob . . .
Message 2
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| Subject: | Alternator without a Battery |
> A discussion and study of stand-alone alternator operation would be a
good thing.
Yes. I think the internal rotax 912 alternator/ducati regulator combination
will do this but I wouldn't want to do any damage by just disconnecting the
battery and seeing what happens. What's a safe way to test this?
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Landing gear warning trigger |
> Again, a picture of your carb/servo/throttle body and cable attachment would
> help shed some light on the problem.
Okay. Here's some pic's. Hopefully they'll help.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411310#411310
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_20131023_115542_266a_166.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_20131023_115520_014a_204.jpg
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: hypothetical question |
Perfectly stated.
On 10/24/2013 2:13 AM, Sacha wrote:
>
>>> I searched the internet for magnetic fields surrounding parallel conductors
and found out that if current is flowing in the opposite direction in two conductors,
the magnetic fields repel each other. The magnetic fields do not cancel
each other out. Instead they become distorted. The fields extend out less
in the direction of the other wire, and they extend out farther in the opposite
direction. Here is a picture of the distorted magnetic fields:
>>> http://www.physchem.co.za/OB11-ele/graphics/magnetic1_f8.gif
> Hi Joe
> It's a question of scale. The fields do not cancel out exactly because the two
wires carrying current in opposite directions are not in exactly the same spot.
But If you move sufficiently far away from the pair of wires then the magnetic
field effectively cancels out. What does sufficiently far mean in this
context? Well if one goes through the calculations the critical distance d is
the distance between the center of the two conductors. So if they're kept very
close together (eg by twisting) then as long as you are at a distance D away
from the pair, where D is much greater than d, then the magnetic field becomes
very small. Typically d is of the order of a few millimeters so if you're eg
a meter away, then D is hundreds of times greater than d and the magnetic field
is for all intents and purposes zero.
> Sacha
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Landing gear warning trigger |
Seems to me that an aluminum bracket and a micro-switch would do the job.
John
On 10/24/2013 9:57 AM, donjohnston wrote:
>
>
>> Again, a picture of your carb/servo/throttle body and cable attachment would
>> help shed some light on the problem.
>
> Okay. Here's some pic's. Hopefully they'll help.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411310#411310
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_20131023_115542_266a_166.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_20131023_115520_014a_204.jpg
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: hypothetical question |
Thanks for clarifying that, Sacha.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411315#411315
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Landing gear warning trigger |
Yep. You already have a fabricated bracket and two anchor bolts available
close by. I'd just re-make the existing bracket (or add a new one) to
extend toward the lever arm and mount a micro switch. You could put an 'L'
shaped tab on the arm using the existing hole to contact the switch if you
need to move the assembly inboard to clear the fuel line.
Or like I mentioned before, mount the switch remotely and activate it with a
slave rod (piano wire) from the lever arm...on either side (push or pull can
work). That's a little more complicated but allows you to work around space
limitations or obstructions if needed.
Simple stuff...bunches of various options. I see no real need for something
complex.
BTW, I hope this you have already addressed this - that mounting clamp looks
not to be fully secured. You dont want to "pre-disaster" yourself and have
the throttle linkage come loose in flight. Just checking.
-James
Berkut/Race 13
EAA Tech Advisor
-----Original Message-----
From: donjohnston
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 8:57 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Landing gear warning trigger
> Again, a picture of your carb/servo/throttle body and cable attachment
> would
> help shed some light on the problem.
Okay. Here's some pic's. Hopefully they'll help.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411310#411310
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_20131023_115542_266a_166.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_20131023_115520_014a_204.jpg
Message 8
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| Subject: | Battery charger/maintainers |
Bob,
In my case, the problem child was/is, very definitely, a Battery Tender.
Of note, I do have a Battery Tender, Jr. on a SLVA battery that I bought
from a computer store, sort of a cheap PC-680 knockoff (12 volts and 17
a.h.) The battery runs an electric gate on my driveway. The Battery
Tender, Jr. has maintained that battery for nearly ten years now with no
problems ever noted. Of course, the gate doesn't require the battery
performance compared to that necessary to start an airplane.
Charlie Brame
RV-6A, N11CB
San Antonio
------------------------------------------------------------------
Time: 11:40:33 AM PST US
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery charger/maintainers
Odyssey claims that a Battery Tender (and I presume
Battery Minders with charge rates under 1A are incapable of
charging an Odyssey product due to "low initial charge
rates(?)"
I have long thought that a lead-acid product
of any capacity would eventually achieve a full
state of charge at any rate . . . as long as the
top-off voltage plateau was reached and held for
a substantial period of time . . . say 1 hour
or more.
I've never owned an Odyssey but I've used Battery-Tender
charger-maintainers for years on batteries up through
33 a.h. and found that the batteries took some time to
charge but cap-checked pretty much as expected. It's
not clear to me how would an Odyssey be that much different
than a Panasonic.
I found some test data I gathered on two wall-warts
(a Tender and a Minder) along with the Schumacher 1562
Emacs!
A Battery Minder I tested does not appear to accomplish a true
top-off cycle. On the other hand, the Battery Tender does seem to
conduct a top-off . . .
Emacs!
But the real value in $low$ charger/maintainers seems to be the
Schumacher 1562
Emacs!
The 1562 is about 2/3 the cost of the wall-warts, about twice
the "initial charge" rate and exhibits a robust/practical
implementation of a top-off cycle.
I have Battery Tenders in my shop . . .which seem to have served
me well . . . along with the 1562's for years.
Data shown above gives me pause to wonder if people do not make a
distinction between Battery Tenders and Battery Minders.
It's the Battery Minder that may be the bad-boy on the
street.
Bob . . .
________________________________ Message 10 ______________
Message 9
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| Subject: | Any French Electricians? |
Greetings,
This is not an aviation question, so feel free to delete now.
I have a table saw in my workshop with a 3 HP, 240 volt, 60 Hz motor.
It was made in France for the US market. After 25 years of faithful
service, the motor won't start. It hummed and the saw blade moved
slightly, but that was all. The motor has two capacitors. The markings
on one of them were readable and I installed a replacement. The other
capacitor was mounted on the outside case of the motor and the markings
were painted over when the motor was painted at the factory.
The motor's data plate indicates two capacitors: one at 500 microfarads
and the other at 30 microfarads at 400 volts AC. I replaced the 500
microfarad capacitor because it had leaked some oil and, since I could
read the markings on the case, it was easy to get a replacement. The
saw now starts, but just barely; much slower than it used to. I suspect
the other capacitor may also need to be replaced. However, I do not
know if it is a momentary (start) capacitor or a continuous run
capacitor since there are no markings on the case. The case is about
the side of two "D" cell flashlight batteries stacked end to end..
I might take this to an electric motor repair shop and let them figure
it out, but I'm curious if anyone can translate the attached schematic,
which was folded up inside the motor's electrical wiring box. I can
figure out the names for the colors of the wires, but not much else.
I'm interested in not only what the words translate into English, but
what the symbols mean. I'm using this as an opportunity to learn
something about larger AC electric motors.
I have a Fluke 87 meter with a capacitor measurement function, but it
only works on polarized capacitors. Mine are not polarized, since they
are for AC current.
Best,
Dennis
Message 10
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| Subject: | Any French Electricians? |
The capacitor connected to the violet wires is the start capacitor, the one
to the black wires is the run capacitor. The motor is dual voltage (as per
the data plate). The diagram shows high voltage operation. To use it in low
voltage mode connect the white, orage and red wires to post W2. You can
reverse rotation by swapping the black and red wires.
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dennis
Johnson
Sent: 24 October 2013 17:22
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Any French Electricians?
Greetings,
This is not an aviation question, so feel free to delete now.
I have a table saw in my workshop with a 3 HP, 240 volt, 60 Hz motor. It
was made in France for the US market. After 25 years of faithful service,
the motor won't start. It hummed and the saw blade moved slightly, but that
was all. The motor has two capacitors. The markings on one of them were
readable and I installed a replacement. The other capacitor was mounted on
the outside case of the motor and the markings were painted over when the
motor was painted at the factory.
The motor's data plate indicates two capacitors: one at 500 microfarads and
the other at 30 microfarads at 400 volts AC. I replaced the 500 microfarad
capacitor because it had leaked some oil and, since I could read the
markings on the case, it was easy to get a replacement. The saw now starts,
but just barely; much slower than it used to. I suspect the other capacitor
may also need to be replaced. However, I do not know if it is a momentary
(start) capacitor or a continuous run capacitor since there are no markings
on the case. The case is about the side of two "D" cell flashlight
batteries stacked end to end..
I might take this to an electric motor repair shop and let them figure it
out, but I'm curious if anyone can translate the attached schematic, which
was folded up inside the motor's electrical wiring box. I can figure out
the names for the colors of the wires, but not much else. I'm interested in
not only what the words translate into English, but what the symbols mean.
I'm using this as an opportunity to learn something about larger AC electric
motors.
I have a Fluke 87 meter with a capacitor measurement function, but it only
works on polarized capacitors. Mine are not polarized, since they are for
AC current.
Best,
Dennis
Message 11
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| Subject: | Any French Electricians? |
Hi Dennis,
Here you go. hope it's helpful.
Sacha
Motor with starter and permanent condensers (capacitors) without thermal
protection. Double voltage.
Next to the condensers on the schematic:
C.D= Condensateur de Demarrage = starter condenser
C.P. = Condensateur Permanent = permanent condenser
The schematic is drawn for LOW voltage. For HIGH voltage, connect the white
and orange wires to W2.
Direction of Rotation: Anti-clockwise as seen from the connection
(connector?)
To reverse the sense of rotation invert the black and red wires.
Not sure what PP and PA mean both preceeded by 1/2. Next to the rotating
disc, it says something which I interpret as: "the PA half which is less
resistant" on top of the disc and "the PA half which is more resistant" on
the bottom of the disc.
I'm not sure what the symbol on the Purple (VIOLET) wire is next to the
capacitor.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Any French Electricians? |
=D8 The capacitor connected to the violet wires is the start capacitor,
the
one to the black wires is the run capacitor.
Yes
The motor is dual voltage (as per the data plate). The diagram shows
high
voltage operation. To use it in low voltage mode connect the white,
orage
and red wires to post W2.
I believe it=92s the opposite way round - it shows low voltage operation
and
you need to connect the orange and white to W2 for high volt op.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Battery charger/maintainers |
I too use several Battery Tenders (BY) &/or the 1562 model sold by Sears
and others. Early on, I found that some maintainers ship from the
factory with either the high point and float level voltages set
incorrectly.
In the early models of the BT (and, maybe still . .) the case could be
removed and inside were two mini-pots that could be adjusted for the
correct high and float voltage points.
My suggestion to anyone using these units to at least check the float
voltage after the battery and maintainer have stabilized. Using your
trusty DVM check that the float voltage is about 13.2 v. on a 12 v.
battery. A higher float voltage might gas the battery in long term
storage mode depending on its chemistry health.
D
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
----- Original Message -----
From: Charles Brame
To: List AeroElectric
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 9:10 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery charger/maintainers
Bob,
In my case, the problem child was/is, very definitely, a Battery
Tender.
Of note, I do have a Battery Tender, Jr. on a SLVA battery that I
bought from a computer store, sort of a cheap PC-680 knockoff (12 volts
and 17 a.h.) The battery runs an electric gate on my driveway. The
Battery Tender, Jr. has maintained that battery for nearly ten years now
with no problems ever noted. Of course, the gate doesn't require the
battery performance compared to that necessary to start an airplane.
Charlie Brame
RV-6A, N11CB
San Antonio
------------------------------------------------------------------
Time: 11:40:33 AM PST US
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery charger/maintainers
Odyssey claims that a Battery Tender (and I presume
Battery Minders with charge rates under 1A are incapable of
charging an Odyssey product due to "low initial charge
rates(?)"
I have long thought that a lead-acid product
of any capacity would eventually achieve a full
state of charge at any rate . . . as long as the
top-off voltage plateau was reached and held for
a substantial period of time . . . say 1 hour
or more.
I've never owned an Odyssey but I've used Battery-Tender
charger-maintainers for years on batteries up through
33 a.h. and found that the batteries took some time to
charge but cap-checked pretty much as expected. It's
not clear to me how would an Odyssey be that much different
than a Panasonic.
I found some test data I gathered on two wall-warts
(a Tender and a Minder) along with the Schumacher 1562
Emacs!
A Battery Minder I tested does not appear to accomplish a true
top-off cycle. On the other hand, the Battery Tender does seem to
conduct a top-off . . .
Emacs!
But the real value in $low$ charger/maintainers seems to be the
Schumacher 1562
Emacs!
The 1562 is about 2/3 the cost of the wall-warts, about twice
the "initial charge" rate and exhibits a robust/practical
implementation of a top-off cycle.
I have Battery Tenders in my shop . . .which seem to have served
me well . . . along with the 1562's for years.
Data shown above gives me pause to wonder if people do not make a
distinction between Battery Tenders and Battery Minders.
It's the Battery Minder that may be the bad-boy on the
street.
Bob . . .
________________________________ Message 10 ______________
Message 14
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| Subject: | Any French Electricians? |
Sacha is correct - finger trouble on my part
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sacha
Sent: 24 October 2013 18:04
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Any French Electricians?
=D8 The capacitor connected to the violet wires is the start capacitor,
the
one to the black wires is the run capacitor.
Yes
The motor is dual voltage (as per the data plate). The diagram shows
high
voltage operation. To use it in low voltage mode connect the white,
orage
and red wires to post W2.
I believe it=92s the opposite way round - it shows low voltage operation
and
you need to connect the orange and white to W2 for high volt op.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Any French Electricians? |
The symbol connected to the violet wires to the right of the capacitor is
the rotating governor/stationary switch, which disconnects the start
capacitor when the motor reaches approx. 80-90% rated speed. The connection
as shown is for low voltage.
Tom Barter
Kesley Electric, Inc.
Phone (319)-347-2462
Fax (319)-347-6607
kesleyelectric@iowatelecom.net
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sacha
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 12:04 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Any French Electricians?
* The capacitor connected to the violet wires is the start capacitor,
the one to the black wires is the run capacitor.
Yes
The motor is dual voltage (as per the data plate). The diagram shows high
voltage operation. To use it in low voltage mode connect the white, orage
and red wires to post W2.
I believe it's the opposite way round - it shows low voltage operation and
you need to connect the orange and white to W2 for high volt op.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Any French Electricians? |
Motor with capacitors for start and run not thermally protected dual voltag
e
bleu = blue
blanc = white
orange = orange
jaune = yellow
rouge = red
violet = violet
noir = black
cd = start capacitor
cp = run capacitor
LOW voltage shown=2C for high voltage connect white=2C orange and red wires
to terminal W2
rotation anti-clockwise viewed from connection end
to change rotation interchange red and black wires.
The round symbol in the violet lead is the centrifugal switch to switch in
and out the start winding.
Bob McC
From: uuccio@gmail.com
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Any French Electricians?
=0A
=D8 The capacitor connected to the violet wires is the start capacitor=2C
the one to the black wires is the run capacitor. YesThe motor is dual volta
ge (as per the data plate). The diagram shows high voltage operation. To us
e it in low voltage mode connect the white=2C orage and red wires to post W
2. I believe it=92s the opposite way round - it shows low voltage operation
and you need to connect the orange and white to W2 for high volt op. =0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
============0A
============0A
============0A
============0A
=0A
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Any French Electricians? |
Dennis,
My French is pretty rusty, but I came up with this:
The title reads, roughly: "MOTOR STARTUP CAPACITORS AND PERMANENT (word miss
ing?) WITHOUT THERMAL PROTECTION. DUAL VOLTAGE."
Colors:
Bleu = Blue
Blanc = White
Jaune = Yellow
Rouge = Red
Noir = Black
Bottom notes:
"LOW VOLTAGE DRAWING: For high voltage connect the white, orange and red wir
es to terminal number W2." =94 I think that means the drawing shows l
ow voltage connection and the note explains high voltage connection.
"ROTATION: Counter-clockwise as seen from connection." =94 I suspect
"connection" is used in the mechanical sense, meaning the output shaft.
"To change the direction of rotation, reverse black and red."
Good luck!
Eric
On Oct 24, 2013, at 9:21 AM, "Dennis Johnson" <pinetownd@volcano.net> wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> This is not an aviation question, so feel free to delete now.
>
> I have a table saw in my workshop with a 3 HP, 240 volt, 60 Hz motor. It w
as made in France for the US market. After 25 years of faithful service, th
e motor won't start. It hummed and the saw blade moved slightly, but that w
as all. The motor has two capacitors. The markings on one of them were rea
dable and I installed a replacement. The other capacitor was mounted on the
outside case of the motor and the markings were painted over when the motor
was painted at the factory.
>
> The motor's data plate indicates two capacitors: one at 500 microfarads a
nd the other at 30 microfarads at 400 volts AC. I replaced the 500 microfar
ad capacitor because it had leaked some oil and, since I could read the mark
ings on the case, it was easy to get a replacement. The saw now starts, but
just barely; much slower than it used to. I suspect the other capacitor ma
y also need to be replaced. However, I do not know if it is a momentary (st
art) capacitor or a continuous run capacitor since there are no markings on t
he case. The case is about the side of two "D" cell flashlight batteries st
acked end to end..
>
> I might take this to an electric motor repair shop and let them figure it o
ut, but I'm curious if anyone can translate the attached schematic, which wa
s folded up inside the motor's electrical wiring box. I can figure out the n
ames for the colors of the wires, but not much else. I'm interested in not o
nly what the words translate into English, but what the symbols mean. I'm u
sing this as an opportunity to learn something about larger AC electric moto
rs.
>
> I have a Fluke 87 meter with a capacitor measurement function, but it only
works on polarized capacitors. Mine are not polarized, since they are for A
C current.
>
> Best,
> Dennis
>
> <French motor006.pdf>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround |
Looking at the EXP 2 Bus Installation Manual
http://support.anywheremap.net/pdfs/EXP2-C.pdf
Page 15 has a simplified schematic. In the lower right hand corner are 2 diodes,
D10 and D12, that can power the engine. The diodes are powered by two separate
circuits: the MAIN BUS and the BACKUP BUS which can get its power directly
from the battery through J31.
The problem is trying to convert the avionics bus into an endurance bus. There
does not appear to be an avionics mechanical relay. It looks like a solid
state relay with an ON-OFF input and a START DISABLE input. Without having the
board in hand, it is hard to say how to bypass this device with a diode. Another
problem is how to feed the avionics bus with a second power input from an
E-bus relay.
Notice in the upper right hand corner is diode D3. What is that for? When would
current ever want to flow in the opposite direction? The only thing that
I can think of is that it is a misguided attempt to prevent voltage spikes from
the master contactor coil. But any induced current will flow with the diode,
not in the opposite direction. Am I overlooking something?
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411341#411341
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Odyssey Batteries |
I had a very simular starting problem early on with my tailwind with Lyc.
160 until I changed out the battery cable to a #2 welding cable. No more
problems. Gordon
On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 8:57 AM, Charles Brame <chasb@satx.rr.com> wrote:
> I couldn't find the original thread in the archives. So I hope this info
> gets to the right builder.
>
> I had a similar starting problem with a nearly new PC-680 a few years ago
,
> i.e., weak starts on my O-320, particularly on cold days. I also was usin
g
> a Battery Tender for charging. I called Odyssey to complain and they said
> one is better off never charging than to use a Battery Tender. Something
> about the Battery Tender not providing a high enough initial charge
> resulting in the battery taking a lower than normal voltage set. Odyssey
> sells a high dollar charger that they recommend. However, based on info I
> got from Bob and others, I bought a Schumacher 1562 from WallMart for abo
ut
> $20. The Schumacher returned my PC-680 back to life and it has started
> cold engines quickly for the last four years. The Schumacher also
> rejuvenated a 10+ year old PC-680 and it has been used to help start
> airplanes and autos all over the airport for several years.
>
> There is much in the archives regarding charging Odyssey batteries. The
> Schumacher 1562 or equivalent is recommend in many threads.
>
> Charlie Brame
> RV-6A, N11CB
> San Antonio
>
> ---------------------------------------------
>
> *Date:**Oct 22, 2013**From:**"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)a
eroelectric.com>**Subject:**Re: Odyssey Batteries <http://www.matronics.com
/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=116834357?KEYS=odyssey_batteries?LIS
TNAME=AeroElectric?HITNUMBER=1?SERIAL=0826451382?SHOWBUTTONS=NO>*
>
>
> At 07:21 PM 10/21/2013, you wrote:
> Hi Bob,
> I took one of your seminars a few years ago at Ohio State University
> Airport and now I have my Wittman Tailwind flying in phase one testing.
>
> The problem I am having with an Oddessey battery PC925 is that it will no
t
> start my Lycoming O-320 when it got to the mid 40s in temperature
> overnight. I had the battery on a trickle charger overnight (Battery Tend
er
> brand) and it showed it had charged enough (green led on control unit).
>
> This is the second Oddessey battery I have had in the Tailwind, I had the
> previous one replaced under warranty in May.
>
> I need some guidance at troubleshooting this situation, when the battery
> was first installed, it cranked the engine well. It has gotten
> progressively slower at cranking despite being put on the trickle charger
.
>
> Recently after it would not start early in the morning, I put it on the
> trickle charger and tried to start it again after lunch. It did start the
n,
> just barely, and then I ran the engine for about 15 minutes to warm up th
e
> oil. The engine has a 60 amp alternator (Nippon Denso) and the buss volta
ge
> on my GRT EIS was 14.2-14.4 volts as the engine was running. After the 15
> minute run, I shut off the engine and tried to restart after a couple of
> minutes and the engine would not crank more than about 3 blades.
>
> I realize that it is unlikely that I got bad battery to replace a bad
> battery but I am not sure which component(s) to look at first. The batter
y,
> starter, wiring and alternator are all things that may be causing the
> problem but what to check first?
>
> Thanks for your help, this got a little longer than I intended.
>
> I agree that the likelihood of two bad batteries in
> a row is very low. It's likely that some COMBINATION
> of effects (voltage drops) are adding up to sabotage
> cranking performance.
>
> It's very difficult to do quantitative analysis of
> a cranking circuit using a starter as a load. Engine
> compression strokes and other variables in mechanical
> loads on starter make it impossible to use a digital
> meter to make any measurements . . . and still difficult
> with an analog instrument.
>
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Any French Electricians? |
Thanks so much for everyone who took the time to respond to my request for a translation
and explanation of my French-made table saw motor schematic! I always
feel good when I learn something new and I feel even better that so many people
helped me. Thanks!
Dennis
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411346#411346
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Odyssey Batteries |
At 02:00 PM 10/24/2013, you wrote:
>I had a very simular starting problem early on
>with my tailwind with Lyc. 160 until I changed
>out the battery cable to a #2 welding cable. No more problems. Gordon
What size wired did you take out?
Bob . . .
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Odyssey Batteries |
What size wire did I replace. Don't remember,however it was an aircraft
wire and was aluminum and much smaller.
On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com**>
>
> At 02:00 PM 10/24/2013, you wrote:
>
>> I had a very simular starting problem early on with my tailwind with Lyc
.
>> 160 until I changed out the battery cable to a #2 welding cable. =C3=82
No more
>> problems. =C3=82 Gordon
>>
>
> What size wired did you take out?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
=====**===================
===========**=
/www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>
=====**===================
===========**=
=====**===================
===========**=
com/contribution>
=====**===================
===========**=
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Battery charger/maintainers |
At 12:17 PM 10/24/2013, you wrote:
>I too use several Battery Tenders (BY) &/or the 1562 model sold by
>Sears and others. Early on, I found that some maintainers ship from
>the factory with either the high point and float level voltages set
>incorrectly.
>In the early models of the BT (and, maybe still . .) the case could
>be removed and inside were two mini-pots that could be adjusted for
>the correct high and float voltage points.
>My suggestion to anyone using these units to at least check the
>float voltage after the battery and maintainer have
>stabilized. Using your trusty DVM check that the float voltage is
>about 13.2 v. on a 12 v. battery. A higher float voltage might gas
>the battery in long term storage mode depending on its chemistry health.
My good friend Skip Koss at Concorde reminds
me that the Battery Minder brand has expanded
over the years to include a constellation of battery
maintenance products.
http://tinyurl.com/mzn8z92
Skip says Concorde has evaluated and endorsed the S2
model for their batteries . . . he said and I
quote, "Bob, the charge curve on the 1562 looks like
the BatteryMINDER "S2" curve that we endorse,
except that the BatteryMINDER has an ambient temperature
sensor that regulates the charging and float (OCV)
voltage at temperatures from -40 to 140F perfectly,
can be and SHOULD be left on these hanger queens
24/7 and their batteries will last them 8-10 years."
No doubt the data under which we've labored
since I pitched a BatteryMinder wall wart based on
a gimpy recharge curve 10 years ago is probably
invalid. Everybody has had a chance to
run the marketplace race and I suspect that the
original prohibitions against BatteryMinder
are inappropriate.
Similarly, Battery Tender's stable of products
has blossomed too.
http://tinyurl.com/q6qq637
Bottom line is that either of these brands have
earned a fresh look at present performance.
It's highly probable that Schumacher's technology
has evolved as well. I'll pick up a new 1562
and run the plot. Until more data is known,
my opinion as to the performance/value of this
product is unchanged . . . but new numbers could
break that bubble in a heartbeat.
Bob . . .
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Landing gear warning trigger |
Just a thought. A simple trigger for a gear warning on my amphib, that
has worked rather well, is to use the master caution light on my EIS as
the trigger. I programmed a min rpm warning on the EIS 6000 that is
armed only after climb rpm has been reached or exceeded like several
other warnings. It triggers when rpm is reduced to below cruise values.
In my case an additional verbal audio warning then cycle continues until
the gear hydraulic pressure is brought up to normal. Of course like any
warning, it only works well if you rarely or never get nuisance master
caution warnings.
Ken
On 24/10/2013 11:25 AM, berkut13@berkut13.com wrote:
>
> Yep. You already have a fabricated bracket and two anchor bolts
> available close by. I'd just re-make the existing bracket (or add a new
> one) to extend toward the lever arm and mount a micro switch. You could
> put an 'L' shaped tab on the arm using the existing hole to contact the
> switch if you need to move the assembly inboard to clear the fuel line.
>
> Or like I mentioned before, mount the switch remotely and activate it
> with a slave rod (piano wire) from the lever arm...on either side (push
> or pull can work). That's a little more complicated but allows you to
> work around space limitations or obstructions if needed.
>
> Simple stuff...bunches of various options. I see no real need for
> something complex.
>
> BTW, I hope this you have already addressed this - that mounting clamp
> looks not to be fully secured. You dont want to "pre-disaster"
> yourself and have the throttle linkage come loose in flight. Just
> checking.
>
> -James
> Berkut/Race 13
> EAA Tech Advisor
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: donjohnston
> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 8:57 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Landing gear warning trigger
>
> <don@velocity-xl.com>
>
>
>> Again, a picture of your carb/servo/throttle body and cable attachment
>> would
>> help shed some light on the problem.
>
>
> Okay. Here's some pic's. Hopefully they'll help.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411310#411310
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_20131023_115542_266a_166.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_20131023_115520_014a_204.jpg
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Battery charger/maintainers |
Aviation Consumer (September 2011) had a comparison of battery chargers.
Here's their conclusion:
*Our Winner
*There really is no contest; the VDC BatteryMINDer aviation chargers win in
all departments, except price. But for that price you get what you pay for.
You get an aviation-specific, simple-to-use, full-featured,
temperature-compensated, powerful charger capable of charging up to three
batteries at once, or one battery much faster and safer than any other
charger tested. About the only other time you will find a temperature probe
other than the BatteryMINDer is with costly, deep-cycle marine/RV chargers
costing many hundreds of dollars.
There are two different BatteryMINDer charging profiles for aircraft
batteries (S2 and S3) and two different voltages (12 and 24), so read the
VDC aviation Web page section carefully or ask them for help, but the Web
site is quite clear.
The S2 models are for Concorde batteries (AGM and flooded) and Gill (AGM
and flooded) batteries. The S3 models are for the expensive Gill LT Series
AGM and Odyssey/Hawker batteries.
Prices on the VDC Web site for the top recommended models 12248-AA-S2 and
S3 (12-volt) and 24041-AA-S2 and S3 (24-volt) BatteryMINDer series are in
the $198 price range. For now, they are including a free digital
multi-meter as part of this charger purchase. There are also European
versions that operate from 220/240 volts.
Until withdrawn, they are offering a trade-up from any type/brand
non-aviation specific charger (including their own non-aviation types) at a
substantial discount from their suggested retail. Offer details are
available on the first page of the aviation section of their Web site
www.battery-minders.com.They also have two types of solar panels with
controllers for inside the airplane, as well as super charger/25-amp,
24-volt power supply combination unit, model 28252-AA.
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround |
Joe...see indents below within your text...Fred
On Oct 24, 2013, at 11:34 AM, user9253 wrote:
>
> Looking at the EXP 2 Bus Installation Manual
> http://support.anywheremap.net/pdfs/EXP2-C.pdf
> Page 15 has a simplified schematic. In the lower right hand corner are 2 diodes,
D10 and D12, that can power the engine. The diodes are powered by two separate
circuits: the MAIN BUS and the BACKUP BUS which can get its power directly
from the battery through J31.
The "simplified schematic" on p. 15 shows the optional back up battery diodes;
this is a factory mod which I do not have. My EXP is better described by the
schematic on p. 13 (Typical install w/ Ext. Solenoid...factory supplied jumper
replaces the Master Relay K1)...however, the AUX1 and AUX2 circuits are mislabled
and are 11 amps, not 7 amps as shown.
> The problem is trying to convert the avionics bus into an endurance bus. There
does not appear to be an avionics mechanical relay. It looks like a solid
state relay with an ON-OFF input and a START DISABLE input. Without having the
board in hand, it is hard to say how to bypass this device with a diode. Another
problem is how to feed the avionics bus with a second power input from
an E-bus relay.
I am loath to alter the innards of the EXP, other than perhaps re-lable and re-purpose
a couple of the rocker switches and wiring them accordingly. My latest
proposed circuit diagram shows a separate E-bus fed thru a diode from a 7 amp
circuit off the EXP Avionics bus, with an alternate feed thru a relay from
the engine bus. I'm content to allow the Avionics Bus to remain as is, noting
that both GPS and Skyview do not move to the E-bus as they both have stand alone
back up batteries. It's no accident that this thread is named "workaround".
> Notice in the upper right hand corner is diode D3. What is that for? When
would current ever want to flow in the opposite direction? The only thing that
I can think of is that it is a misguided attempt to prevent voltage spikes from
the master contactor coil. But any induced current will flow with the diode,
not in the opposite direction. Am I overlooking something?
These things I cannot commentt on...
> Joe
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411341#411341
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator without a Battery |
>From the Rotax Installation Manual, Section 24-00-00, page 7:
"A capacitor (see fig. 11, pos 14) of at least 22000 uF/25V is necessary to
protect the correct function of regulator and to flatten voltage. The
regulator is not designed to store any electrical charge. If for any reason
the battery or bus system is disconnected from the regulator while the
engine is running (i.e. the master switch is shut off) the capacitor will
safely absorb and dissipate the electrical charge produced by the
generator. Otherwise the regulator would be damaged."
Rick Girard
On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 8:52 AM, Sacha <uuccio@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > A discussion and study of stand-alone alternator operation would be a
> good thing.
>
> Yes. I think the internal rotax 912 alternator/ducati regulator
> combination
> will do this but I wouldn't want to do any damage by just disconnecting the
> battery and seeing what happens. What's a safe way to test this?
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
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