---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 10/24/13: 27 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:20 AM - Re: Alternator without a Battery (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 06:52 AM - Re: Alternator without a Battery (Sacha) 3. 06:57 AM - Re: Landing gear warning trigger (donjohnston) 4. 08:10 AM - Re: Re: hypothetical question (John W Livingston) 5. 08:14 AM - Re: Re: Landing gear warning trigger (John W Livingston) 6. 08:19 AM - Re: hypothetical question (user9253) 7. 08:30 AM - Re: Re: Landing gear warning trigger () 8. 09:11 AM - Battery charger/maintainers (Charles Brame) 9. 09:22 AM - Any French Electricians? (Dennis Johnson) 10. 09:53 AM - Re: Any French Electricians? (Peter Mather) 11. 09:58 AM - Re: Any French Electricians? (Sacha) 12. 10:04 AM - Re: Any French Electricians? (Sacha) 13. 10:17 AM - Re: Battery charger/maintainers (David Lloyd) 14. 10:21 AM - Re: Any French Electricians? (Peter Mather) 15. 10:31 AM - Re: Any French Electricians? (Thomas Barter) 16. 10:35 AM - Re: Any French Electricians? (Bob McCallum) 17. 10:40 AM - Re: Any French Electricians? (Eric Page) 18. 11:36 AM - Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (user9253) 19. 12:00 PM - Re: Re: Odyssey Batteries (Gordon Parker) 20. 12:18 PM - Re: Any French Electricians? (Dennis Johnson) 21. 12:39 PM - Re: Re: Odyssey Batteries (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 22. 12:52 PM - Re: Re: Odyssey Batteries (Gordon Parker) 23. 12:56 PM - Re: Battery charger/maintainers (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 24. 01:47 PM - Re: Re: Landing gear warning trigger (Ken) 25. 03:05 PM - Re: Battery charger/maintainers (Ralph Finch) 26. 03:10 PM - Re: Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround (Fred Klein) 27. 08:12 PM - Re: Alternator without a Battery (Richard Girard) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:20:53 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator without a Battery At 08:18 PM 10/23/2013, you wrote: In designing the electrical system for my Zenith Zodiac with a Viking engine, I thought I would start with Z-19 and modify - add OVP for the alternator, a relay to prevent run-on of the starter, and maybe more. Recent discussions on this site about contactors and the Z-19 philosophy have me rethinking things. Good critical review is always a good thing, if only to confirm the validity of our faith in legacy philosophies. Such confirmation fosters understanding. Also, the Viking has an alternator that can run without a battery. I remember driving an overloaded old Dodge Colt on a long evening trip (Christmas eve) and having the headlights go dimmer and dimmer. Fortunately, I made it to a gas station next to a motel, because the battery that had easily started the engine 4 hours earlier was very shorted. (I was able to get a used battery installed on Christmas Day by a great farmer with a tow truck.). Why don't we worry about this in airplanes? Shouldn't we be able to fully disconnect the battery or batteries, if the alternator can run without a battery? . . . the Barons and Bonanzas do it, perhaps other airplanes too. Your mission, if you choose to accept it, is to evaluate the science and risks for adopting this philosophy yourself. A discussion and study of stand-alone alternator operation would be a good thing. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:52:46 AM PST US From: "Sacha" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Alternator without a Battery > A discussion and study of stand-alone alternator operation would be a good thing. Yes. I think the internal rotax 912 alternator/ducati regulator combination will do this but I wouldn't want to do any damage by just disconnecting the battery and seeing what happens. What's a safe way to test this? ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:57:41 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Landing gear warning trigger From: "donjohnston" > Again, a picture of your carb/servo/throttle body and cable attachment would > help shed some light on the problem. Okay. Here's some pic's. Hopefully they'll help. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411310#411310 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_20131023_115542_266a_166.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_20131023_115520_014a_204.jpg ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:10:04 AM PST US From: John W Livingston Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: hypothetical question Perfectly stated. On 10/24/2013 2:13 AM, Sacha wrote: > >>> I searched the internet for magnetic fields surrounding parallel conductors and found out that if current is flowing in the opposite direction in two conductors, the magnetic fields repel each other. The magnetic fields do not cancel each other out. Instead they become distorted. The fields extend out less in the direction of the other wire, and they extend out farther in the opposite direction. Here is a picture of the distorted magnetic fields: >>> http://www.physchem.co.za/OB11-ele/graphics/magnetic1_f8.gif > Hi Joe > It's a question of scale. The fields do not cancel out exactly because the two wires carrying current in opposite directions are not in exactly the same spot. But If you move sufficiently far away from the pair of wires then the magnetic field effectively cancels out. What does sufficiently far mean in this context? Well if one goes through the calculations the critical distance d is the distance between the center of the two conductors. So if they're kept very close together (eg by twisting) then as long as you are at a distance D away from the pair, where D is much greater than d, then the magnetic field becomes very small. Typically d is of the order of a few millimeters so if you're eg a meter away, then D is hundreds of times greater than d and the magnetic field is for all intents and purposes zero. > Sacha > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:14:26 AM PST US From: John W Livingston Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Landing gear warning trigger Seems to me that an aluminum bracket and a micro-switch would do the job. John On 10/24/2013 9:57 AM, donjohnston wrote: > > >> Again, a picture of your carb/servo/throttle body and cable attachment would >> help shed some light on the problem. > > Okay. Here's some pic's. Hopefully they'll help. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411310#411310 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_20131023_115542_266a_166.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_20131023_115520_014a_204.jpg > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:19:02 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: hypothetical question From: "user9253" Thanks for clarifying that, Sacha. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411315#411315 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:30:42 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Landing gear warning trigger Yep. You already have a fabricated bracket and two anchor bolts available close by. I'd just re-make the existing bracket (or add a new one) to extend toward the lever arm and mount a micro switch. You could put an 'L' shaped tab on the arm using the existing hole to contact the switch if you need to move the assembly inboard to clear the fuel line. Or like I mentioned before, mount the switch remotely and activate it with a slave rod (piano wire) from the lever arm...on either side (push or pull can work). That's a little more complicated but allows you to work around space limitations or obstructions if needed. Simple stuff...bunches of various options. I see no real need for something complex. BTW, I hope this you have already addressed this - that mounting clamp looks not to be fully secured. You dont want to "pre-disaster" yourself and have the throttle linkage come loose in flight. Just checking. -James Berkut/Race 13 EAA Tech Advisor -----Original Message----- From: donjohnston Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 8:57 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Landing gear warning trigger > Again, a picture of your carb/servo/throttle body and cable attachment > would > help shed some light on the problem. Okay. Here's some pic's. Hopefully they'll help. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411310#411310 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_20131023_115542_266a_166.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_20131023_115520_014a_204.jpg ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:11:39 AM PST US From: Charles Brame Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery charger/maintainers Bob, In my case, the problem child was/is, very definitely, a Battery Tender. Of note, I do have a Battery Tender, Jr. on a SLVA battery that I bought from a computer store, sort of a cheap PC-680 knockoff (12 volts and 17 a.h.) The battery runs an electric gate on my driveway. The Battery Tender, Jr. has maintained that battery for nearly ten years now with no problems ever noted. Of course, the gate doesn't require the battery performance compared to that necessary to start an airplane. Charlie Brame RV-6A, N11CB San Antonio ------------------------------------------------------------------ Time: 11:40:33 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery charger/maintainers Odyssey claims that a Battery Tender (and I presume Battery Minders with charge rates under 1A are incapable of charging an Odyssey product due to "low initial charge rates(?)" I have long thought that a lead-acid product of any capacity would eventually achieve a full state of charge at any rate . . . as long as the top-off voltage plateau was reached and held for a substantial period of time . . . say 1 hour or more. I've never owned an Odyssey but I've used Battery-Tender charger-maintainers for years on batteries up through 33 a.h. and found that the batteries took some time to charge but cap-checked pretty much as expected. It's not clear to me how would an Odyssey be that much different than a Panasonic. I found some test data I gathered on two wall-warts (a Tender and a Minder) along with the Schumacher 1562 Emacs! A Battery Minder I tested does not appear to accomplish a true top-off cycle. On the other hand, the Battery Tender does seem to conduct a top-off . . . Emacs! But the real value in $low$ charger/maintainers seems to be the Schumacher 1562 Emacs! The 1562 is about 2/3 the cost of the wall-warts, about twice the "initial charge" rate and exhibits a robust/practical implementation of a top-off cycle. I have Battery Tenders in my shop . . .which seem to have served me well . . . along with the 1562's for years. Data shown above gives me pause to wonder if people do not make a distinction between Battery Tenders and Battery Minders. It's the Battery Minder that may be the bad-boy on the street. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ______________ ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:22:24 AM PST US From: "Dennis Johnson" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Any French Electricians? Greetings, This is not an aviation question, so feel free to delete now. I have a table saw in my workshop with a 3 HP, 240 volt, 60 Hz motor. It was made in France for the US market. After 25 years of faithful service, the motor won't start. It hummed and the saw blade moved slightly, but that was all. The motor has two capacitors. The markings on one of them were readable and I installed a replacement. The other capacitor was mounted on the outside case of the motor and the markings were painted over when the motor was painted at the factory. The motor's data plate indicates two capacitors: one at 500 microfarads and the other at 30 microfarads at 400 volts AC. I replaced the 500 microfarad capacitor because it had leaked some oil and, since I could read the markings on the case, it was easy to get a replacement. The saw now starts, but just barely; much slower than it used to. I suspect the other capacitor may also need to be replaced. However, I do not know if it is a momentary (start) capacitor or a continuous run capacitor since there are no markings on the case. The case is about the side of two "D" cell flashlight batteries stacked end to end.. I might take this to an electric motor repair shop and let them figure it out, but I'm curious if anyone can translate the attached schematic, which was folded up inside the motor's electrical wiring box. I can figure out the names for the colors of the wires, but not much else. I'm interested in not only what the words translate into English, but what the symbols mean. I'm using this as an opportunity to learn something about larger AC electric motors. I have a Fluke 87 meter with a capacitor measurement function, but it only works on polarized capacitors. Mine are not polarized, since they are for AC current. Best, Dennis ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:53:33 AM PST US From: "Peter Mather" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Any French Electricians? The capacitor connected to the violet wires is the start capacitor, the one to the black wires is the run capacitor. The motor is dual voltage (as per the data plate). The diagram shows high voltage operation. To use it in low voltage mode connect the white, orage and red wires to post W2. You can reverse rotation by swapping the black and red wires. From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dennis Johnson Sent: 24 October 2013 17:22 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Any French Electricians? Greetings, This is not an aviation question, so feel free to delete now. I have a table saw in my workshop with a 3 HP, 240 volt, 60 Hz motor. It was made in France for the US market. After 25 years of faithful service, the motor won't start. It hummed and the saw blade moved slightly, but that was all. The motor has two capacitors. The markings on one of them were readable and I installed a replacement. The other capacitor was mounted on the outside case of the motor and the markings were painted over when the motor was painted at the factory. The motor's data plate indicates two capacitors: one at 500 microfarads and the other at 30 microfarads at 400 volts AC. I replaced the 500 microfarad capacitor because it had leaked some oil and, since I could read the markings on the case, it was easy to get a replacement. The saw now starts, but just barely; much slower than it used to. I suspect the other capacitor may also need to be replaced. However, I do not know if it is a momentary (start) capacitor or a continuous run capacitor since there are no markings on the case. The case is about the side of two "D" cell flashlight batteries stacked end to end.. I might take this to an electric motor repair shop and let them figure it out, but I'm curious if anyone can translate the attached schematic, which was folded up inside the motor's electrical wiring box. I can figure out the names for the colors of the wires, but not much else. I'm interested in not only what the words translate into English, but what the symbols mean. I'm using this as an opportunity to learn something about larger AC electric motors. I have a Fluke 87 meter with a capacitor measurement function, but it only works on polarized capacitors. Mine are not polarized, since they are for AC current. Best, Dennis ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:58:11 AM PST US From: "Sacha" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Any French Electricians? Hi Dennis, Here you go. hope it's helpful. Sacha Motor with starter and permanent condensers (capacitors) without thermal protection. Double voltage. Next to the condensers on the schematic: C.D= Condensateur de Demarrage = starter condenser C.P. = Condensateur Permanent = permanent condenser The schematic is drawn for LOW voltage. For HIGH voltage, connect the white and orange wires to W2. Direction of Rotation: Anti-clockwise as seen from the connection (connector?) To reverse the sense of rotation invert the black and red wires. Not sure what PP and PA mean both preceeded by 1/2. Next to the rotating disc, it says something which I interpret as: "the PA half which is less resistant" on top of the disc and "the PA half which is more resistant" on the bottom of the disc. I'm not sure what the symbol on the Purple (VIOLET) wire is next to the capacitor. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:07 AM PST US From: "Sacha" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Any French Electricians? =D8 The capacitor connected to the violet wires is the start capacitor, the one to the black wires is the run capacitor. Yes The motor is dual voltage (as per the data plate). The diagram shows high voltage operation. To use it in low voltage mode connect the white, orage and red wires to post W2. I believe it=92s the opposite way round - it shows low voltage operation and you need to connect the orange and white to W2 for high volt op. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:17:56 AM PST US From: "David Lloyd" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery charger/maintainers I too use several Battery Tenders (BY) &/or the 1562 model sold by Sears and others. Early on, I found that some maintainers ship from the factory with either the high point and float level voltages set incorrectly. In the early models of the BT (and, maybe still . .) the case could be removed and inside were two mini-pots that could be adjusted for the correct high and float voltage points. My suggestion to anyone using these units to at least check the float voltage after the battery and maintainer have stabilized. Using your trusty DVM check that the float voltage is about 13.2 v. on a 12 v. battery. A higher float voltage might gas the battery in long term storage mode depending on its chemistry health. D ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Brame To: List AeroElectric Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 9:10 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery charger/maintainers Bob, In my case, the problem child was/is, very definitely, a Battery Tender. Of note, I do have a Battery Tender, Jr. on a SLVA battery that I bought from a computer store, sort of a cheap PC-680 knockoff (12 volts and 17 a.h.) The battery runs an electric gate on my driveway. The Battery Tender, Jr. has maintained that battery for nearly ten years now with no problems ever noted. Of course, the gate doesn't require the battery performance compared to that necessary to start an airplane. Charlie Brame RV-6A, N11CB San Antonio ------------------------------------------------------------------ Time: 11:40:33 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery charger/maintainers Odyssey claims that a Battery Tender (and I presume Battery Minders with charge rates under 1A are incapable of charging an Odyssey product due to "low initial charge rates(?)" I have long thought that a lead-acid product of any capacity would eventually achieve a full state of charge at any rate . . . as long as the top-off voltage plateau was reached and held for a substantial period of time . . . say 1 hour or more. I've never owned an Odyssey but I've used Battery-Tender charger-maintainers for years on batteries up through 33 a.h. and found that the batteries took some time to charge but cap-checked pretty much as expected. It's not clear to me how would an Odyssey be that much different than a Panasonic. I found some test data I gathered on two wall-warts (a Tender and a Minder) along with the Schumacher 1562 Emacs! A Battery Minder I tested does not appear to accomplish a true top-off cycle. On the other hand, the Battery Tender does seem to conduct a top-off . . . Emacs! But the real value in $low$ charger/maintainers seems to be the Schumacher 1562 Emacs! The 1562 is about 2/3 the cost of the wall-warts, about twice the "initial charge" rate and exhibits a robust/practical implementation of a top-off cycle. I have Battery Tenders in my shop . . .which seem to have served me well . . . along with the 1562's for years. Data shown above gives me pause to wonder if people do not make a distinction between Battery Tenders and Battery Minders. It's the Battery Minder that may be the bad-boy on the street. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ______________ ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:21:07 AM PST US From: "Peter Mather" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Any French Electricians? Sacha is correct - finger trouble on my part From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sacha Sent: 24 October 2013 18:04 Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Any French Electricians? =D8 The capacitor connected to the violet wires is the start capacitor, the one to the black wires is the run capacitor. Yes The motor is dual voltage (as per the data plate). The diagram shows high voltage operation. To use it in low voltage mode connect the white, orage and red wires to post W2. I believe it=92s the opposite way round - it shows low voltage operation and you need to connect the orange and white to W2 for high volt op. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:31:24 AM PST US From: "Thomas Barter" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Any French Electricians? The symbol connected to the violet wires to the right of the capacitor is the rotating governor/stationary switch, which disconnects the start capacitor when the motor reaches approx. 80-90% rated speed. The connection as shown is for low voltage. Tom Barter Kesley Electric, Inc. Phone (319)-347-2462 Fax (319)-347-6607 kesleyelectric@iowatelecom.net _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sacha Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 12:04 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Any French Electricians? * The capacitor connected to the violet wires is the start capacitor, the one to the black wires is the run capacitor. Yes The motor is dual voltage (as per the data plate). The diagram shows high voltage operation. To use it in low voltage mode connect the white, orage and red wires to post W2. I believe it's the opposite way round - it shows low voltage operation and you need to connect the orange and white to W2 for high volt op. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:35:30 AM PST US From: Bob McCallum Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Any French Electricians? Motor with capacitors for start and run not thermally protected dual voltag e bleu = blue blanc = white orange = orange jaune = yellow rouge = red violet = violet noir = black cd = start capacitor cp = run capacitor LOW voltage shown=2C for high voltage connect white=2C orange and red wires to terminal W2 rotation anti-clockwise viewed from connection end to change rotation interchange red and black wires. The round symbol in the violet lead is the centrifugal switch to switch in and out the start winding. Bob McC From: uuccio@gmail.com Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Any French Electricians? =0A =D8 The capacitor connected to the violet wires is the start capacitor=2C the one to the black wires is the run capacitor. YesThe motor is dual volta ge (as per the data plate). The diagram shows high voltage operation. To us e it in low voltage mode connect the white=2C orage and red wires to post W 2. I believe it=92s the opposite way round - it shows low voltage operation and you need to connect the orange and white to W2 for high volt op. =0A =0A =0A =0A ============0A ============0A ============0A ============0A =0A ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:37 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Any French Electricians? From: Eric Page Dennis, My French is pretty rusty, but I came up with this: The title reads, roughly: "MOTOR STARTUP CAPACITORS AND PERMANENT (word miss ing?) WITHOUT THERMAL PROTECTION. DUAL VOLTAGE." Colors: Bleu = Blue Blanc = White Jaune = Yellow Rouge = Red Noir = Black Bottom notes: "LOW VOLTAGE DRAWING: For high voltage connect the white, orange and red wir es to terminal number W2." =94 I think that means the drawing shows l ow voltage connection and the note explains high voltage connection. "ROTATION: Counter-clockwise as seen from connection." =94 I suspect "connection" is used in the mechanical sense, meaning the output shaft. "To change the direction of rotation, reverse black and red." Good luck! Eric On Oct 24, 2013, at 9:21 AM, "Dennis Johnson" wrote: > Greetings, > > This is not an aviation question, so feel free to delete now. > > I have a table saw in my workshop with a 3 HP, 240 volt, 60 Hz motor. It w as made in France for the US market. After 25 years of faithful service, th e motor won't start. It hummed and the saw blade moved slightly, but that w as all. The motor has two capacitors. The markings on one of them were rea dable and I installed a replacement. The other capacitor was mounted on the outside case of the motor and the markings were painted over when the motor was painted at the factory. > > The motor's data plate indicates two capacitors: one at 500 microfarads a nd the other at 30 microfarads at 400 volts AC. I replaced the 500 microfar ad capacitor because it had leaked some oil and, since I could read the mark ings on the case, it was easy to get a replacement. The saw now starts, but just barely; much slower than it used to. I suspect the other capacitor ma y also need to be replaced. However, I do not know if it is a momentary (st art) capacitor or a continuous run capacitor since there are no markings on t he case. The case is about the side of two "D" cell flashlight batteries st acked end to end.. > > I might take this to an electric motor repair shop and let them figure it o ut, but I'm curious if anyone can translate the attached schematic, which wa s folded up inside the motor's electrical wiring box. I can figure out the n ames for the colors of the wires, but not much else. I'm interested in not o nly what the words translate into English, but what the symbols mean. I'm u sing this as an opportunity to learn something about larger AC electric moto rs. > > I have a Fluke 87 meter with a capacitor measurement function, but it only works on polarized capacitors. Mine are not polarized, since they are for A C current. > > Best, > Dennis > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:36:36 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround From: "user9253" Looking at the EXP 2 Bus Installation Manual http://support.anywheremap.net/pdfs/EXP2-C.pdf Page 15 has a simplified schematic. In the lower right hand corner are 2 diodes, D10 and D12, that can power the engine. The diodes are powered by two separate circuits: the MAIN BUS and the BACKUP BUS which can get its power directly from the battery through J31. The problem is trying to convert the avionics bus into an endurance bus. There does not appear to be an avionics mechanical relay. It looks like a solid state relay with an ON-OFF input and a START DISABLE input. Without having the board in hand, it is hard to say how to bypass this device with a diode. Another problem is how to feed the avionics bus with a second power input from an E-bus relay. Notice in the upper right hand corner is diode D3. What is that for? When would current ever want to flow in the opposite direction? The only thing that I can think of is that it is a misguided attempt to prevent voltage spikes from the master contactor coil. But any induced current will flow with the diode, not in the opposite direction. Am I overlooking something? Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411341#411341 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:00:55 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Odyssey Batteries From: Gordon Parker I had a very simular starting problem early on with my tailwind with Lyc. 160 until I changed out the battery cable to a #2 welding cable. No more problems. Gordon On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 8:57 AM, Charles Brame wrote: > I couldn't find the original thread in the archives. So I hope this info > gets to the right builder. > > I had a similar starting problem with a nearly new PC-680 a few years ago , > i.e., weak starts on my O-320, particularly on cold days. I also was usin g > a Battery Tender for charging. I called Odyssey to complain and they said > one is better off never charging than to use a Battery Tender. Something > about the Battery Tender not providing a high enough initial charge > resulting in the battery taking a lower than normal voltage set. Odyssey > sells a high dollar charger that they recommend. However, based on info I > got from Bob and others, I bought a Schumacher 1562 from WallMart for abo ut > $20. The Schumacher returned my PC-680 back to life and it has started > cold engines quickly for the last four years. The Schumacher also > rejuvenated a 10+ year old PC-680 and it has been used to help start > airplanes and autos all over the airport for several years. > > There is much in the archives regarding charging Odyssey batteries. The > Schumacher 1562 or equivalent is recommend in many threads. > > Charlie Brame > RV-6A, N11CB > San Antonio > > --------------------------------------------- > > *Date:**Oct 22, 2013**From:**"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" **Subject:**Re: Odyssey Batteries * > > > At 07:21 PM 10/21/2013, you wrote: > Hi Bob, > I took one of your seminars a few years ago at Ohio State University > Airport and now I have my Wittman Tailwind flying in phase one testing. > > The problem I am having with an Oddessey battery PC925 is that it will no t > start my Lycoming O-320 when it got to the mid 40s in temperature > overnight. I had the battery on a trickle charger overnight (Battery Tend er > brand) and it showed it had charged enough (green led on control unit). > > This is the second Oddessey battery I have had in the Tailwind, I had the > previous one replaced under warranty in May. > > I need some guidance at troubleshooting this situation, when the battery > was first installed, it cranked the engine well. It has gotten > progressively slower at cranking despite being put on the trickle charger .. > > Recently after it would not start early in the morning, I put it on the > trickle charger and tried to start it again after lunch. It did start the n, > just barely, and then I ran the engine for about 15 minutes to warm up th e > oil. The engine has a 60 amp alternator (Nippon Denso) and the buss volta ge > on my GRT EIS was 14.2-14.4 volts as the engine was running. After the 15 > minute run, I shut off the engine and tried to restart after a couple of > minutes and the engine would not crank more than about 3 blades. > > I realize that it is unlikely that I got bad battery to replace a bad > battery but I am not sure which component(s) to look at first. The batter y, > starter, wiring and alternator are all things that may be causing the > problem but what to check first? > > Thanks for your help, this got a little longer than I intended. > > I agree that the likelihood of two bad batteries in > a row is very low. It's likely that some COMBINATION > of effects (voltage drops) are adding up to sabotage > cranking performance. > > It's very difficult to do quantitative analysis of > a cranking circuit using a starter as a load. Engine > compression strokes and other variables in mechanical > loads on starter make it impossible to use a digital > meter to make any measurements . . . and still difficult > with an analog instrument. > > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:18:45 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Any French Electricians? From: "Dennis Johnson" Thanks so much for everyone who took the time to respond to my request for a translation and explanation of my French-made table saw motor schematic! I always feel good when I learn something new and I feel even better that so many people helped me. Thanks! Dennis Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411346#411346 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:39:03 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Odyssey Batteries At 02:00 PM 10/24/2013, you wrote: >I had a very simular starting problem early on >with my tailwind with Lyc. 160 until I changed >out the battery cable to a #2 welding cable. No more problems. Gordon What size wired did you take out? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:52:26 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Odyssey Batteries From: Gordon Parker What size wire did I replace. Don't remember,however it was an aircraft wire and was aluminum and much smaller. On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com**> > > At 02:00 PM 10/24/2013, you wrote: > >> I had a very simular starting problem early on with my tailwind with Lyc .. >> 160 until I changed out the battery cable to a #2 welding cable. =C3=82 No more >> problems. =C3=82 Gordon >> > > What size wired did you take out? > > > Bob . . . > > =====**=================== ===========**= /www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List> =====**=================== ===========**= =====**=================== ===========**= com/contribution> =====**=================== ===========**= > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:56:35 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery charger/maintainers At 12:17 PM 10/24/2013, you wrote: >I too use several Battery Tenders (BY) &/or the 1562 model sold by >Sears and others. Early on, I found that some maintainers ship from >the factory with either the high point and float level voltages set >incorrectly. >In the early models of the BT (and, maybe still . .) the case could >be removed and inside were two mini-pots that could be adjusted for >the correct high and float voltage points. >My suggestion to anyone using these units to at least check the >float voltage after the battery and maintainer have >stabilized. Using your trusty DVM check that the float voltage is >about 13.2 v. on a 12 v. battery. A higher float voltage might gas >the battery in long term storage mode depending on its chemistry health. My good friend Skip Koss at Concorde reminds me that the Battery Minder brand has expanded over the years to include a constellation of battery maintenance products. http://tinyurl.com/mzn8z92 Skip says Concorde has evaluated and endorsed the S2 model for their batteries . . . he said and I quote, "Bob, the charge curve on the 1562 looks like the BatteryMINDER "S2" curve that we endorse, except that the BatteryMINDER has an ambient temperature sensor that regulates the charging and float (OCV) voltage at temperatures from -40 to 140F perfectly, can be and SHOULD be left on these hanger queens 24/7 and their batteries will last them 8-10 years." No doubt the data under which we've labored since I pitched a BatteryMinder wall wart based on a gimpy recharge curve 10 years ago is probably invalid. Everybody has had a chance to run the marketplace race and I suspect that the original prohibitions against BatteryMinder are inappropriate. Similarly, Battery Tender's stable of products has blossomed too. http://tinyurl.com/q6qq637 Bottom line is that either of these brands have earned a fresh look at present performance. It's highly probable that Schumacher's technology has evolved as well. I'll pick up a new 1562 and run the plot. Until more data is known, my opinion as to the performance/value of this product is unchanged . . . but new numbers could break that bubble in a heartbeat. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:47:39 PM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Landing gear warning trigger Just a thought. A simple trigger for a gear warning on my amphib, that has worked rather well, is to use the master caution light on my EIS as the trigger. I programmed a min rpm warning on the EIS 6000 that is armed only after climb rpm has been reached or exceeded like several other warnings. It triggers when rpm is reduced to below cruise values. In my case an additional verbal audio warning then cycle continues until the gear hydraulic pressure is brought up to normal. Of course like any warning, it only works well if you rarely or never get nuisance master caution warnings. Ken On 24/10/2013 11:25 AM, berkut13@berkut13.com wrote: > > Yep. You already have a fabricated bracket and two anchor bolts > available close by. I'd just re-make the existing bracket (or add a new > one) to extend toward the lever arm and mount a micro switch. You could > put an 'L' shaped tab on the arm using the existing hole to contact the > switch if you need to move the assembly inboard to clear the fuel line. > > Or like I mentioned before, mount the switch remotely and activate it > with a slave rod (piano wire) from the lever arm...on either side (push > or pull can work). That's a little more complicated but allows you to > work around space limitations or obstructions if needed. > > Simple stuff...bunches of various options. I see no real need for > something complex. > > BTW, I hope this you have already addressed this - that mounting clamp > looks not to be fully secured. You dont want to "pre-disaster" > yourself and have the throttle linkage come loose in flight. Just > checking. > > -James > Berkut/Race 13 > EAA Tech Advisor > > > -----Original Message----- From: donjohnston > Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 8:57 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Landing gear warning trigger > > > > >> Again, a picture of your carb/servo/throttle body and cable attachment >> would >> help shed some light on the problem. > > > Okay. Here's some pic's. Hopefully they'll help. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411310#411310 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_20131023_115542_266a_166.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_20131023_115520_014a_204.jpg > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 03:05:53 PM PST US From: Ralph Finch Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery charger/maintainers Aviation Consumer (September 2011) had a comparison of battery chargers. Here's their conclusion: *Our Winner *There really is no contest; the VDC BatteryMINDer aviation chargers win in all departments, except price. But for that price you get what you pay for. You get an aviation-specific, simple-to-use, full-featured, temperature-compensated, powerful charger capable of charging up to three batteries at once, or one battery much faster and safer than any other charger tested. About the only other time you will find a temperature probe other than the BatteryMINDer is with costly, deep-cycle marine/RV chargers costing many hundreds of dollars. There are two different BatteryMINDer charging profiles for aircraft batteries (S2 and S3) and two different voltages (12 and 24), so read the VDC aviation Web page section carefully or ask them for help, but the Web site is quite clear. The S2 models are for Concorde batteries (AGM and flooded) and Gill (AGM and flooded) batteries. The S3 models are for the expensive Gill LT Series AGM and Odyssey/Hawker batteries. Prices on the VDC Web site for the top recommended models 12248-AA-S2 and S3 (12-volt) and 24041-AA-S2 and S3 (24-volt) BatteryMINDer series are in the $198 price range. For now, they are including a free digital multi-meter as part of this charger purchase. There are also European versions that operate from 220/240 volts. Until withdrawn, they are offering a trade-up from any type/brand non-aviation specific charger (including their own non-aviation types) at a substantial discount from their suggested retail. Offer details are available on the first page of the aviation section of their Web site www.battery-minders.com.They also have two types of solar panels with controllers for inside the airplane, as well as super charger/25-amp, 24-volt power supply combination unit, model 28252-AA. ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 03:10:11 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround From: Fred Klein Joe...see indents below within your text...Fred On Oct 24, 2013, at 11:34 AM, user9253 wrote: > > Looking at the EXP 2 Bus Installation Manual > http://support.anywheremap.net/pdfs/EXP2-C.pdf > Page 15 has a simplified schematic. In the lower right hand corner are 2 diodes, D10 and D12, that can power the engine. The diodes are powered by two separate circuits: the MAIN BUS and the BACKUP BUS which can get its power directly from the battery through J31. The "simplified schematic" on p. 15 shows the optional back up battery diodes; this is a factory mod which I do not have. My EXP is better described by the schematic on p. 13 (Typical install w/ Ext. Solenoid...factory supplied jumper replaces the Master Relay K1)...however, the AUX1 and AUX2 circuits are mislabled and are 11 amps, not 7 amps as shown. > The problem is trying to convert the avionics bus into an endurance bus. There does not appear to be an avionics mechanical relay. It looks like a solid state relay with an ON-OFF input and a START DISABLE input. Without having the board in hand, it is hard to say how to bypass this device with a diode. Another problem is how to feed the avionics bus with a second power input from an E-bus relay. I am loath to alter the innards of the EXP, other than perhaps re-lable and re-purpose a couple of the rocker switches and wiring them accordingly. My latest proposed circuit diagram shows a separate E-bus fed thru a diode from a 7 amp circuit off the EXP Avionics bus, with an alternate feed thru a relay from the engine bus. I'm content to allow the Avionics Bus to remain as is, noting that both GPS and Skyview do not move to the E-bus as they both have stand alone back up batteries. It's no accident that this thread is named "workaround". > Notice in the upper right hand corner is diode D3. What is that for? When would current ever want to flow in the opposite direction? The only thing that I can think of is that it is a misguided attempt to prevent voltage spikes from the master contactor coil. But any induced current will flow with the diode, not in the opposite direction. Am I overlooking something? These things I cannot commentt on... > Joe > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411341#411341 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 08:12:19 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator without a Battery From: Richard Girard >From the Rotax Installation Manual, Section 24-00-00, page 7: "A capacitor (see fig. 11, pos 14) of at least 22000 uF/25V is necessary to protect the correct function of regulator and to flatten voltage. The regulator is not designed to store any electrical charge. If for any reason the battery or bus system is disconnected from the regulator while the engine is running (i.e. the master switch is shut off) the capacitor will safely absorb and dissipate the electrical charge produced by the generator. Otherwise the regulator would be damaged." Rick Girard On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 8:52 AM, Sacha wrote: > > > A discussion and study of stand-alone alternator operation would be a > good thing. > > Yes. I think the internal rotax 912 alternator/ducati regulator > combination > will do this but I wouldn't want to do any damage by just disconnecting the > battery and seeing what happens. What's a safe way to test this? > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.