---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 10/29/13: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:08 AM - Re: Charging the Aux Battery (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 02:19 AM - Re: Contactors (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 06:29 AM - Re: Contactors (Bill Allen) 4. 08:56 AM - King KT78 Manual (Jay Hyde) 5. 09:31 AM - Transponder Interference with Icom A-22 Comm Radio (djtoddb) 6. 12:31 PM - Harbor Freight sells the big switches too (cardinalnsb) 7. 02:35 PM - Re: Contactors (jan) 8. 04:12 PM - Re: King KT78 Manual (Jerald Folkerts) 9. 04:57 PM - Re: King KT78 Manual (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 05:23 PM - Re: Contactors (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 05:30 PM - Re: Contactors (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 09:30 PM - Trusting a chargers reputation, what an idiot! (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us) 13. 11:39 PM - Re: Trusting a chargers reputation, what an idiot! (Bob Verwey) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:08:56 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Charging the Aux Battery At 11:41 AM 10/1/2013, you wrote: > > >Bob > >Thank you for the dissertation about the theme I had proposed. >I confess that I still didn't read it thoroughly, so I will have to digest >it conveniently. > >Meanwhile, I can confirm that my question was not academic, I am building an >RV-10 and did consider the Dual battery, One main Alternator - one Aux >alternator system. > >So far, I am considering a variation of the Z-14 architecture, but still >didn't reach the "end of the line" in what regards the final schematic, so >would appreciate all suggestions. Okay, start with Z-14 and tell us what you would do differently and why that seems to be a good idea. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:19:41 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Contactors This then opens up the possibility of removing the 40amp alternator from the aft of my Lycoming (worst place for weight on a pusher) and replacing it with a 20amp unit in place of one magneto, and with a (B&C SD20) 20amp unit, one scrutinises all consumers to reduce appetites where possible. The B&C 20A machine drives from a vacuum pump pad. I don't think you want to replace any magnetos with other than an electronic ignition. While populating my electrical load schedule, I was taken aback to see that the master contactor takes a constant 2amps. That would make it the most hungry consumer of watts in my aircraft, 10% of my alternators output going to keep the master latched. Actually, it's more like 1 amp cold and drops to about .6 amps warm for a Cole-Hersee contactor. See http://tinyurl.com/k6bwdqo http://tinyurl.com/mpcgp3t Thus I'm struggling to see why I should not use a mechanical master along the lines of that suggested by Eric; (http://www.flamingriver.com/index.php/products/c0015/s0001/FR1013) particularly as I'm at the "clean sheet" stage. And I've had an electrical master fail on a certified aircraft (PA30). That works too. The Piper Pacer and Tri-Pacers were originally fitted with manual battery switches and starter push-buttons. How did the contactor fail . . . and how did you become aware of the failiure? If your system is architectured for failure tolerance, a contactor failure is not an emergency; only a maintenance event. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:29:56 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Contactors From: Bill Allen Hi Bob, Thanks for the reply. 1. Yes, well caught, the B&C SD20 fits on the vacpad not the mag location. My mis-type. - trying to colour in one point (the draw of the master relay) and not paying attention to the details. I'm using a Pmag-E and an LSEas ignition systems. 2. Your tests showing the real draw on the master solenoid are very revealing, presuming that the master solenoid I have from Aircraft Spruce ( http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/masterrelay.php?clickkey=10293 ) is a Cole-Hersee - I'm unfamiliar with the term but gather from googling that they are to solenoids what Hoover is to vacuum cleaners. However, 0.8amps is still almost the equivalent of a Garmin 430 (0.2a stby), Funkwerk Com (0.1a stby),DynonXPDR-262 (0.15a stby) and AeroLED Navlights(0.4a). All are "brochure figures" unless I've misread them. 3. The failure I experienced on my PA30 was on the ground. I found a totally dead system with a good battery, and traced it quickly to the master relay not activating. A new unit fixed it, and upon stripping the old one, I found moisture penetration of the internals to be the cause. Cleaning it up got it working again, but not to the point that I wanted to risk the disruption it could cause if it failed again. Had it failed in flight I would not have lost engine power, but would have lost all ships power, unless there is an e-bus on a 1966 PA30 that I'm not aware of, which is possible. If you'd like me to mail it to you for dissection, I can do that. 4. What I've learnt from this (ie, point 2 above) is to actually measure the current used by each of the consumers one plans to use. If the acceptance of 2amps for the master relay (but actually 0.8amps) is read across in this way for all other units, it's easily possible to end up with an alternator, wires, switches, fuses etc all way oversize and overweight. regards, Bill Allen On 29 October 2013 11:18, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com**> > > > This then opens up the possibility of removing the 40amp alternator from > the aft of my Lycoming (worst place for weight on a pusher) and replacing > it with a 20amp unit in place of one magneto, and with a (B&C SD20) 20amp > unit, one scrutinises all consumers to reduce appetites where possible. > > The B&C 20A machine drives from a vacuum > pump pad. I don't think you want to replace > any magnetos with other than an electronic > ignition. > > > While populating my electrical load schedule, I was taken aback to see > that the master contactor takes a constant 2amps. That would make it the > most hungry consumer of watts in my aircraft, 10% of my alternators output > going to keep the master latched. > > Actually, it's more like 1 amp cold and drops to about > .6 amps warm for a Cole-Hersee contactor. See > > http://tinyurl.com/k6bwdqo > http://tinyurl.com/mpcgp3t > > > Thus I'm struggling to see why I should not use a mechanical master along > the lines of that suggested by Eric; (http://www.flamingriver.com/** > index.php/products/c0015/**s0001/FR1013) > particularly as I'm at the "clean sheet" stage. And I've had an electrical > master fail on a certified aircraft (PA30). > > That works too. The Piper Pacer and Tri-Pacers > were originally fitted with manual battery switches > and starter push-buttons. > > How did the contactor fail . . . and how did > you become aware of the failiure? If your > system is architectured for failure tolerance, > a contactor failure is not an emergency; only > a maintenance event. > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:56:20 AM PST US From: "Jay Hyde" Subject: AeroElectric-List: King KT78 Manual Does anyone have a copy of the King KT78 manual and or pinouts? I tried a google search and came across a link to one at www.gobookee.org but they want a 'credit card verification' to download a 'free' document and I'm suspicious. J Alternatively, does anyone have any experience with gobookee? Johannesburg Jay ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:31:01 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Transponder Interference with Icom A-22 Comm Radio From: "djtoddb" I just installed a Sandia Transponder with an Icom A-22 handheld radio hard wired into the electrical system. On the first flight, ATC had a difficult time understanding me and I heard "clicks" in then headset while receiving. Not knowing if it was RF interference from the transponder OR feedback from the aircraft 12 volt power system, I removed the hard wire power from the radio and used the battery pack... Everything worked great. I even placed the VHF receiver within a inch of the transponder antenna while it was being interrogated and it still worked fine. Seems I am having some strange pulses running through the 12V system while the transponder is ON because it is eliminated when I remove acft power from it and use the battery pack. QUESTION - Is there something I can do or install that will isolate electrically the Comm Radio from getting this feedback from the transponder OR is there something I can add to the Transponder Power feed? -------- Titan Tornado II with Jab 3300 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411680#411680 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:31:00 PM PST US From: cardinalnsb Subject: AeroElectric-List: Harbor Freight sells the big switches too "Harbor Freight sells the big switches too. Roll your own actuator." The one I bought at HF was of poor quality and I would not use it on a motorhome. Skip Simpson ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:35:21 PM PST US From: jan Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Contactors What about using a Kilovac EV200 with a circuit saver ? Any experience with them ?? They pull in under high A.. then the circuit saver lowers the current to hold the relay closed... (but I am told the circuit saver is 'noisy' ... i.e. lots of EMC ...) Anyone have any comments ?? _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Allen Sent: 29 October 2013 13:28 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Contactors Hi Bob, Thanks for the reply. 1. Yes, well caught, the B&C SD20 fits on the vacpad not the mag location. My mis-type. - trying to colour in one point (the draw of the master relay) and not paying attention to the details. I'm using a Pmag-E and an LSE as ignition systems. 2. Your tests showing the real draw on the master solenoid are very revealing, presuming that the master solenoid I have from Aircraft Spruce (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/masterrelay.php?clickkey=1029 3 ) is a Cole-Hersee - I'm unfamiliar with the term but gather from googling that they are to solenoids what Hoover is to vacuum cleaners. However, 0.8amps is still almost the equivalent of a Garmin 430 (0.2a stby), Funkwerk Com (0.1a stby),DynonXPDR-262 (0.15a stby) and AeroLED Navlights (0.4a). All are "brochure figures" unless I've misread them. 3. The failure I experienced on my PA30 was on the ground. I found a totally dead system with a good battery, and traced it quickly to the master relay not activating. A new unit fixed it, and upon stripping the old one, I found moisture penetration of the internals to be the cause. Cleaning it up got it working again, but not to the point that I wanted to risk the disruption it could cause if it failed again. Had it failed in flight I would not have lost engine power, but would have lost all ships power, unless there is an e-bus on a 1966 PA30 that I'm not aware of, which is possible. If you'd like me to mail it to you for dissection, I can do that. 4. What I've learnt from this (ie, point 2 above) is to actually measure the current used by each of the consumers one plans to use. If the acceptance of 2amps for the master relay (but actually 0.8amps) is read across in this way for all other units, it's easily possible to end up with an alternator, wires, switches, fuses etc all way oversize and overweight. regards, Bill Allen On 29 October 2013 11:18, Robert L. Nuckolls, III > wrote: > This then opens up the possibility of removing the 40amp alternator from the aft of my Lycoming (worst place for weight on a pusher) and replacing it with a 20amp unit in place of one magneto, and with a (B&C SD20) 20amp unit, one scrutinises all consumers to reduce appetites where possible. The B&C 20A machine drives from a vacuum pump pad. I don't think you want to replace any magnetos with other than an electronic ignition. While populating my electrical load schedule, I was taken aback to see that the master contactor takes a constant 2amps. That would make it the most hungry consumer of watts in my aircraft, 10% of my alternators output going to keep the master latched. Actually, it's more like 1 amp cold and drops to about .6 amps warm for a Cole-Hersee contactor. See http://tinyurl.com/k6bwdqo http://tinyurl.com/mpcgp3t Thus I'm struggling to see why I should not use a mechanical master along the lines of that suggested by Eric; (http://www.flamingriver.com/index.php/products/c0015/s0001/FR1013 ) particularly as I'm at the "clean sheet" stage. And I've had an electrical master fail on a certified aircraft (PA30). That works too. The Piper Pacer and Tri-Pacers were originally fitted with manual battery switches and starter push-buttons. How did the contactor fail . . . and how did you become aware of the failiure? If your system is architectured for failure tolerance, a contactor failure is not an emergency; only a maintenance event. Bob . . . =================================== -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List =================================== http://forums.matronics.com =================================== le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ===================================

What about using a Kilovac EV200 with a circuit saver ? Any experience with them ??  They pull in under high A.. then the circuit saver lowers the current to hold the relay closed… (but I am told the circuit saver is ‘noisy’ … i.e. lots of EMC …)

 

Anyone have any comments ??

 

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Allen
Sent: 29 October 2013 13:28
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Contactors

 

Hi Bob,

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

1. Yes, well caught, the B&C SD20 fits on the vacpad not the mag location. My mis-type. - trying to colour in one point (the draw of the master relay) and not paying attention to the details.    I'm using a Pmag-E and an LSE as ignition systems.

 

2. Your tests showing the real draw on the master solenoid are very revealing, presuming that the master solenoid I have from Aircraft Spruce (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/masterre lay.php?clickkey=10293 ) is a Cole-Hersee - I'm unfamiliar with the term but gather from googling that they are to solenoids what Hoover is to vacuum cleaners.

However, 0.8amps is still almost the equivalent of a Garmin 430 (0.2a stby), Funkwerk Com (0.1a stby),DynonXPDR-262 (0.15a stby) and AeroLED Navlights (0.4a). All are "brochure figures" unless I've misread them.

 

3. The failure I experienced on my PA30 was on the ground. I found a totally dead system with a good battery, and traced it quickly to the master relay not activating. A new unit fixed it, and upon stripping the old one, I found moisture penetration of the internals to be the cause. Cleaning it up got it working again, but not to the point that I wanted to risk the disruption it could cause if it failed again.

Had it failed in flight I would not have lost engine power, but would have lost all ships power, unless there is an e-bus on a 1966 PA30 that I'm not aware of, which is possible.

If you'd like me to mail it to you for dissection, I can do that.

 

4. What I've learnt from this (ie, point 2 above) is to actually measure the current used by each of the consumers one plans to use. If the acceptance of 2amps for the master relay (but actually 0.8amps) is read across in this way for all other units, it's easily possible to end up with an alternator, wires, switches, fuses etc all way oversize and overweight.

 

regards,

 

Bill Allen

 

On 29 October 2013 11:18, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>




 This then opens up the possibility of removing the 40amp alternator from the aft of my Lycoming (worst place for weight on a pusher) and replacing it with a 20amp unit in place of one magneto, and with a (B&C SD20) 20amp unit, one scrutinises all consumers to reduce appetites where possible.

   The B&C 20A machine drives from a vacuum
   pump pad. I don't think you want to replace
   any magnetos with other than an electronic
   ignition.




While populating my electrical load schedule, I was taken aback to see that the master contactor takes a constant 2amps. That would make it the most hungry consumer of watts in my aircraft, 10% of my alternators output going to keep the master latched.

 Actually, it's more like 1 amp cold and drops to about
 .6 amps warm for a Cole-Hersee contactor. See

http://tinyurl.com/k6bwdqo
http://tinyurl.com/mpcgp3t




Thus I'm struggling to see why I should not use a mechanical master along the lines of that suggested by Eric; (http://www.flamingriver.com/index.php/products/c0015/s 0001/FR1013) particularly as I'm at the "clean sheet" stage. And I've had an electrical master fail on a certified aircraft (PA30).

  That works too. The Piper Pacer and Tri-Pacers
  were originally fitted with manual battery switches
  and starter push-buttons.

  How did the contactor fail . . . and how did
  you become aware of the failiure? If your
  system is architectured for failure tolerance,
  a contactor failure is not an emergency; only
  a maintenance event.


  Bob . . .


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le, List Admin.
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======================== ============


 

 
 
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________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:12:12 PM PST US From: "Jerald Folkerts" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: King KT78 Manual Jay, I have one for KT78A. If you want, send me your email address. Best, Jerry Folkerts From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jay Hyde Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 10:55 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: King KT78 Manual Does anyone have a copy of the King KT78 manual and or pinouts? I tried a google search and came across a link to one at www.gobookee.org but they want a 'credit card verification' to download a 'free' document and I'm suspicious. J Alternatively, does anyone have any experience with gobookee? Johannesburg Jay ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:57:10 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: King KT78 Manual At 10:55 AM 10/29/2013, you wrote: >Does anyone have a copy of the King KT78 manual and or pinouts? Check here http://tinyurl.com/kcwmt6f Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:23:17 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Contactors At 08:28 AM 10/29/2013, you wrote: >Hi Bob, > >Thanks for the reply. > >1. Yes, well caught, the B&C SD20 fits on the vacpad not the mag >location. My mis-type. - trying to colour in one point (the draw of >the master relay) and not paying attention to the details. I'm >using a Pmag-E and an LSE as ignition systems. Okay, you've got a 15a current budget . . . 5A of rated output should be 'walled off' for battery recharging in flight . . . and remember, the SD-20 doesn't give you any useful output until you're airborne. >2. Your tests showing the real draw on the master solenoid are very >revealing, presuming that the master solenoid I have from Aircraft >Spruce >(http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/masterrelay.php?clickkey=10293 >) is a Cole-Hersee - I'm unfamiliar with the term but gather from >googling that they are to solenoids what Hoover is to vacuum cleaners. >However, 0.8amps is still almost the equivalent of a Garmin 430 >(0.2a stby), Funkwerk Com (0.1a stby),DynonXPDR-262 (0.15a stby) and >AeroLED Navlights (0.4a). All are "brochure figures" unless I've misread them. So do all the math. Get this form http://tinyurl.com/7jqypwj and do an inventory of every electrical load . . . including the battery contactor. Don't fuss with bus-decisions yet, just get a read on total loads under various flight conditions. > >3. The failure I experienced on my PA30 was on the ground. I found a >totally dead system with a good battery, and traced it quickly to >the master relay not activating. A new unit fixed it, and upon >stripping the old one, I found moisture penetration of the internals >to be the cause. Cleaning it up got it working again, but not to the >point that I wanted to risk the disruption it could cause if it failed again.to Surely your anticipated system can function with the battery contactor open . . . whether it opens from failure or the fact that you shut it off, getting to an airport of intended destination shouldn't be a foreboding task. >Had it failed in flight I would not have lost engine power, but >would have lost all ships power, unless there is an e-bus on a 1966 >PA30 that I'm not aware of, which is possible. No, they don't have that feature . . . but if it were my airplane . . . it would. Do you have a flight-bag back-up? http://tinyurl.com/lg3n4gh >If you'd like me to mail it to you for dissection, I can do that. Not useful at this stage. The major point is that it failed on the ground. I won't say that failures in fight never happen . . . but they are exceedingly rare. If one has failed in flight, I'd give pretty good odds that the pilot was 'warned' . . . probably conducted more than one flight where the contactor had to be 'jiggered' in some way before the panel lit up . . . and he doesn't even know what an e-bus is. I'd also give pretty good odds that the contactor you replaced had been in service for a considerable period of time. I'm supposed to get a networked computer at Cessna on Monday. I'd should be able to search the archives for history on part numbers used for both production and spares on the single engine line going back a very long way. >4. What I've learnt from this (ie, point 2 above) is to actually >measure the current used by each of the consumers one plans to use. That's never wrong. When you get all the numbers, give us a list of your findings. > If the acceptance of 2amps for the master relay (but actually > 0.8amps) is read across in this way for all other units, it's > easily possible to end up with an alternator, wires, switches, > fuses etc all way oversize and overweight. That's not typical. I've never seen a value greater than 1.0A assigned to battery contactors on single engine airplanes. Further, the numbers from installation manuals on items used in TC aircraft should be golden. Updating load analysis and weight and balance for any changes to an airplane is pretty much a given for which the manufacturer is obligated to support with good numbers. Add 'em all up and see if you've busted your 15A bubble. Running loads only, intermittent loads like flap motors, trim motors, transmitters, etc are not significant energy consumers. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:30:28 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Contactors At 04:44 PM 10/29/2013, you wrote: >What about using a Kilovac EV200 with a circuit >saver ? Any experience with them ?? They pull >in under high A.. then the circuit saver lowers >the current to hold the relay closed=85 (but I am >told the circuit saver is =91noisy=92 =85 i.e. lots of EMC =85) > >Anyone have any comments ?? A fine contactor with a price to match . . . and yes . . . pwm management of holding current is not noise free. Most users have not found the noise to be a problem. I think I've got an EV200 in the skunk-werks box of goodies somewhere . . . if I can put my hands on it, I'll see if I can get the EMC lab gurus to do a quick conducted survey on it. We'll have a contactor-cooler product available pretty soon. The 9024 4-function module will include that capability. I'll it checked for conducted emissions too. The goal would be to offer a low cost alternative to lowering operating current (and temperature rise) on the generic contactors. Reduced operating temp should improve on what has already been a good service life. But aside from weight and cost, the EV200 is a fine opportunity for increased service life assuming you find $value$ in the exchange. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:30:35 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Trusting a chargers reputation, what an idiot! From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us Hi group I'm an idiot. I purchased an Odyssey PC545 a while back and listened to the distributors rhetoric, blah, blah blah I best buy one of his magical chargers custom suited for an odyssey battery. Wasn't very much so I bought one. My battery is aft located on my Europa Monowheel, so a bit of contortion needed to get to it. No problem. Very early on the strain relief for the insulation at the charger broke in half, so I was just measuring the charger output at the break (which is easily located forward). Today we were working on the flap control and were crawling around in the back of the aeroplane and decided we should check the voltage at the battery with the charger connected. The charger was indicating float (green) and at the forward break in the insulation at 13.54 volts. When we tested at the battery, it was only 12.75 volts? Closer inspection revealed really poor solder connection to the battery clamps. There is a plating on the clamps, and the solder never stuck real well. EZ fix, scratch, mild activated flux and solder. Just a note, best check charge voltage right at the battery, don't trust a green LED saying all is well. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:39:43 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Trusting a chargers reputation, what an idiot! From: Bob Verwey Ron I am busy with a new build and have a similar problem...the battery voltage at the battery is 13.4 and the MGL Efis shows supply voltage as 12.9. I have checked all feeds and connectors, but cannot isolate the voltage drop.... Best... Bob Verwey On 30 October 2013 06:29, wrote: > Hi group > > I'm an idiot. I purchased an Odyssey PC545 a while back and listened to > the distributors rhetoric, blah, blah blah I best buy one of his magical > chargers custom suited for an odyssey battery. Wasn't very much so I bought > one. My battery is aft located on my Europa Monowheel, so a bit of > contortion needed to get to it. No problem. Very early on the strain relief > for the insulation at the charger broke in half, so I was just measuring > the charger output at the break (which is easily located forward). Today we > were working on the flap control and were crawling around in the back of > the aeroplane and decided we should check the voltage at the battery with > the charger connected. The charger was indicating float (green) and at the > forward break in the insulation at 13.54 volts. When we tested at the > battery, it was only 12.75 volts? Closer inspection revealed really poor > solder connection to the battery clamps. There is a plating on the clamps, > and the solder never stuck real well. EZ fix, scratch, mild activated flux > and solder. Just a note, best check charge voltage right at the battery, > don't trust a green LED saying all is well. > > Ron Parigoris > > * > > * > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.