---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 10/31/13: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 11:41 AM - Re: Contactors (jan) 2. 02:27 PM - Re: Contactors (Bill Allen) 3. 04:16 PM - Re: Contactors (Matt Prather) 4. 05:32 PM - Aviation intercom (Roger & Jean) 5. 10:12 PM - Re: Contactors (Sacha) 6. 10:21 PM - Re: Contactors (Bob Verwey) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 11:41:00 AM PST US From: jan Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Contactors Hi Bob, It will be very interesting to hear what you find out about EMC if you get the chance to do it ... I will be very interesting to hear more about your contactor cooler circuit / module when you have it available ... will be ideal for a generic contactor All the best Jan _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: 30 October 2013 00:30 Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Contactors At 04:44 PM 10/29/2013, you wrote: What about using a Kilovac EV200 with a circuit saver ? Any experience with them ?? They pull in under high A.. then the circuit saver lowers the current to hold the relay closed... (but I am told the circuit saver is 'noisy' ... i.e. lots of EMC ...) Anyone have any comments ?? A fine contactor with a price to match . . . and yes . . . pwm management of holding current is not noise free. Most users have not found the noise to be a problem. I think I've got an EV200 in the skunk-werks box of goodies somewhere . . . if I can put my hands on it, I'll see if I can get the EMC lab gurus to do a quick conducted survey on it. We'll have a contactor-cooler product available pretty soon. The 9024 4-function module will include that capability. I'll it checked for conducted emissions too. The goal would be to offer a low cost alternative to lowering operating current (and temperature rise) on the generic contactors. Reduced operating temp should improve on what has already been a good service life. But aside from weight and cost, the EV200 is a fine opportunity for increased service life assuming you find $value$ in the exchange. Bob . . .

Hi Bob,

It will be very interesting to hear what you find out about EMC if you get the chance to do it …

I will be very interesting to hear more about your contactor cooler circuit / module when you have it available … will be ideal for a generic contactor

All the best

Jan

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: 30 October 2013 00:30
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Contactors

At 04:44 PM 10/29/2013, you wrote:

What about using a Kilovac EV200 with a circuit saver ? Any experience with them ?? They pull in under high A.. then the circuit saver lowers the current to hold the relay closed… (but I am told the circuit saver is ‘noisy’ … i.e. lots of EMC …)

Anyone have any comments ??

A fine contactor with a price to match . . .
and yes . . . pwm management of holding
current is not noise free. Most users
have not found the noise to be a problem.
I think I've got an EV200 in the skunk-werks
box of goodies somewhere . . . if I can put
my hands on it, I'll see if I can get the
EMC lab gurus to do a quick conducted survey
on it.

We'll have a contactor-cooler product available
pretty soon. The 9024 4-function module will
include that capability. I'll it checked for
conducted emissions too. The goal would be
to offer a low cost alternative to lowering
operating current (and temperature rise) on
the generic contactors. Reduced operating
temp should improve on what has already been
a good service life.

But aside from weight and cost, the EV200 is
a fine opportunity for increased service life
assuming you find $value$ in the exchange.

Bob . . .

http://www
.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

http://forums.matronics.com

http://www.matronics.com/
contribution

________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:27:43 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Contactors From: Bill Allen Hi Bob, You wrote; <> Noted. << So do all the math. Get this form http://tinyurl.com/7jqypwj and do an inventory of every electrical load . . . including the battery contactor.Don't fuss with bus-decisions yet, just get a read on total loads under various flight conditions.>> Got the form. Willdo. <> Presumably that's what the e-bus is there for in your designs, if not the architecture of Mr.Piper in 1966, when my PA30 was built. << Do you have a flight-bag back-up? http://tinyurl.com/lg3n4gh >> Yes I do. << I'd also give pretty good odds that the contactor you replaced had been in service for a considerable period of time >> I have no reason to doubt it was new with the aircraft, in 1966. What I've learnt from this is to actually measure the current used by each of the consumers one plans to use. <> Will do. Thanks. Bill Allen ** ** On 30 October 2013 02:22, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 08:28 AM 10/29/2013, you wrote: > > Hi Bob, > > Thanks for the reply. > > 1. Yes, well caught, the B&C SD20 fits on the vacpad not the mag location. > My mis-type. - trying to colour in one point (the draw of the master relay) > and not paying attention to the details. I'm using a Pmag-E and an LSE > as ignition systems. > > > Okay, you've got a 15a current budget . . . 5A of > rated output should be 'walled off' for battery > recharging in flight . . . and remember, the SD-20 > doesn't give you any useful output until you're airborne. > > 2. Your tests showing the real draw on the master solenoid are very > revealing, presuming that the master solenoid I have from Aircraft Spruce (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/masterrelay.php?clickkey=10293) is a Cole-Hersee - I'm unfamiliar with the term but gather from googling > that they are to solenoids what Hoover is to vacuum cleaners. > > However, 0.8amps is still almost the equivalent of a Garmin 430 (0.2a > stby), Funkwerk Com (0.1a stby),DynonXPDR-262 (0.15a stby) and AeroLED > Navlights (0.4a). All are "brochure figures" unless I've misread them. > > > So do all the math. Get this form > > http://tinyurl.com/7jqypwj > > and do an inventory of every electrical > load . . . including the battery contactor. > Don't fuss with bus-decisions yet, just > get a read on total loads under various > flight conditions. > > > 3. The failure I experienced on my PA30 was on the ground. I found a > totally dead system with a good battery, and traced it quickly to the > master relay not activating. A new unit fixed it, and upon stripping the > old one, I found moisture penetration of the internals to be the cause. > Cleaning it up got it working again, but not to the point that I wanted to > risk the disruption it could cause if it failed again.to > > > Surely your anticipated system can function > with the battery contactor open . . . whether > it opens from failure or the fact that you > shut it off, getting to an airport of intended > destination shouldn't be a foreboding task. > > > Had it failed in flight I would not have lost engine power, but would have > lost all ships power, unless there is an e-bus on a 1966 PA30 that I'm not > aware of, which is possible. > > > No, they don't have that feature . . . but if > it were my airplane . . . it would. > > Do you have a flight-bag back-up? > > http://tinyurl.com/lg3n4gh > > > If you'd like me to mail it to you for dissection, I can do that. > > > Not useful at this stage. The major point is that > it failed on the ground. I won't say that failures > in fight never happen . . . but they are exceedingly > rare. If one has failed in flight, I'd give pretty > good odds that the pilot was 'warned' . . . probably > conducted more than one flight where the contactor > had to be 'jiggered' in some way before the panel lit > up . . . and he doesn't even know what an e-bus is. > > I'd also give pretty good odds that the contactor > you replaced had been in service for a considerable > period of time. > > I'm supposed to get a networked computer at Cessna > on Monday. I'd should be able to search the archives > for history on part numbers used for both production > and spares on the single engine line going back a > very long way. > > > 4. What I've learnt from this (ie, point 2 above) is to actually measure > the current used by each of the consumers one plans to use. > > > That's never wrong. When you get all the numbers, give > us a list of your findings. > > > If the acceptance of 2amps for the master relay (but actually 0.8amps) is > read across in this way for all other units, it's easily possible to end up > with an alternator, wires, switches, fuses etc all way oversize and > overweight. > > > That's not typical. I've never seen a value greater > than 1.0A assigned to battery contactors on single > engine airplanes. Further, the numbers from installation > manuals on items used in TC aircraft should be golden. > Updating load analysis and weight and balance for > any changes to an airplane is pretty much a given for > which the manufacturer is obligated to support with > good numbers. > > Add 'em all up and see if you've busted your 15A > bubble. Running loads only, intermittent loads like > flap motors, trim motors, transmitters, etc are > not significant energy consumers. > > ** > > ** Bob . . . > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:16:31 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Contactors From: Matt Prather Seems like the relay (contactor) that draws 0.8-2A (depending on how it's measured) is one that is sized to be capable of carrying starter currents (though not necessarily capable of switching them reliably). An architecture that uses such a contactor for all devices is probably fine when you have 40A+ to play with. But, in an application where you're on a tight energy budget, maybe it would make sense to have parallel contactors/relays. A smaller relay might be able to handle everything but starting current, and only consume 100-200mA to do it. The heavy one would only be energized when starting the engine. It may break the architecture goal of running the B-lead current through the heavy starter wire, but that may still be a good deal. Regards, Matt- On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 3:26 PM, Bill Allen wrote: > Hi Bob, > > You wrote; > > < rated output should be 'walled off' for battery > recharging in flight . . . and remember, the SD-20 > doesn't give you any useful output until you're airborne.>> > > Noted. > > << So do all the math. Get this form http://tinyurl.com/7jqypwj and do > an inventory of every electrical load . . . including the battery > contactor.Don't fuss with bus-decisions yet, just get a read on total > loads under various flight conditions.>> > > Got the form. Willdo. > > < it opens from failure or the fact that you shut it off, getting to an > airport of intended destination shouldn't be a foreboding task.>> > > Presumably that's what the e-bus is there for in your designs, if not the > architecture of Mr.Piper in 1966, when my PA30 was built. > > > << Do you have a flight-bag back-up? http://tinyurl.com/lg3n4gh >> Yes > I do. > > > << I'd also give pretty good odds that the contactor you replaced had > been in service for a considerable period of time >> > > I have no reason to doubt it was new with the aircraft, in 1966. > > What I've learnt from this is to actually measure the current used by > each of the consumers one plans to use. > > < us a list of your findings. Add 'em all up and see if you've busted > your 15A > bubble. Running loads only, intermittent loads like > flap motors, trim motors, transmitters, etc are > not significant energy consumers.>> > > > Will do. > > Thanks. > > Bill Allen > > > ** > > ** > > > On 30 October 2013 02:22, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > >> At 08:28 AM 10/29/2013, you wrote: >> >> Hi Bob, >> >> Thanks for the reply. >> >> 1. Yes, well caught, the B&C SD20 fits on the vacpad not the mag >> location. My mis-type. - trying to colour in one point (the draw of the >> master relay) and not paying attention to the details. I'm using a >> Pmag-E and an LSE as ignition systems. >> >> >> Okay, you've got a 15a current budget . . . 5A of >> rated output should be 'walled off' for battery >> recharging in flight . . . and remember, the SD-20 >> doesn't give you any useful output until you're airborne. >> >> 2. Your tests showing the real draw on the master solenoid are very >> revealing, presuming that the master solenoid I have from Aircraft Spruce (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/masterrelay.php?clickkey=10293) is a Cole-Hersee - I'm unfamiliar with the term but gather from googling >> that they are to solenoids what Hoover is to vacuum cleaners. >> >> However, 0.8amps is still almost the equivalent of a Garmin 430 (0.2a >> stby), Funkwerk Com (0.1a stby),DynonXPDR-262 (0.15a stby) and AeroLED >> Navlights (0.4a). All are "brochure figures" unless I've misread them. >> >> >> So do all the math. Get this form >> >> http://tinyurl.com/7jqypwj >> >> and do an inventory of every electrical >> load . . . including the battery contactor. >> Don't fuss with bus-decisions yet, just >> get a read on total loads under various >> flight conditions. >> >> >> >> >> 3. The failure I experienced on my PA30 was on the ground. I found a >> totally dead system with a good battery, and traced it quickly to the >> master relay not activating. A new unit fixed it, and upon stripping the >> old one, I found moisture penetration of the internals to be the cause. >> Cleaning it up got it working again, but not to the point that I wanted to >> risk the disruption it could cause if it failed again.to >> >> >> Surely your anticipated system can function >> with the battery contactor open . . . whether >> it opens from failure or the fact that you >> shut it off, getting to an airport of intended >> destination shouldn't be a foreboding task. >> >> >> Had it failed in flight I would not have lost engine power, but would >> have lost all ships power, unless there is an e-bus on a 1966 PA30 that I'm >> not aware of, which is possible. >> >> >> No, they don't have that feature . . . but if >> it were my airplane . . . it would. >> >> Do you have a flight-bag back-up? >> >> http://tinyurl.com/lg3n4gh >> >> >> >> >> If you'd like me to mail it to you for dissection, I can do that. >> >> >> Not useful at this stage. The major point is that >> it failed on the ground. I won't say that failures >> in fight never happen . . . but they are exceedingly >> rare. If one has failed in flight, I'd give pretty >> good odds that the pilot was 'warned' . . . probably >> conducted more than one flight where the contactor >> had to be 'jiggered' in some way before the panel lit >> up . . . and he doesn't even know what an e-bus is. >> >> I'd also give pretty good odds that the contactor >> you replaced had been in service for a considerable >> period of time. >> >> I'm supposed to get a networked computer at Cessna >> on Monday. I'd should be able to search the archives >> for history on part numbers used for both production >> and spares on the single engine line going back a >> very long way. >> >> >> >> 4. What I've learnt from this (ie, point 2 above) is to actually measure >> the current used by each of the consumers one plans to use. >> >> >> That's never wrong. When you get all the numbers, give >> us a list of your findings. >> >> >> >> If the acceptance of 2amps for the master relay (but actually 0.8amps) >> is read across in this way for all other units, it's easily possible to end >> up with an alternator, wires, switches, fuses etc all way oversize and >> overweight. >> >> >> That's not typical. I've never seen a value greater >> than 1.0A assigned to battery contactors on single >> engine airplanes. Further, the numbers from installation >> manuals on items used in TC aircraft should be golden. >> Updating load analysis and weight and balance for >> any changes to an airplane is pretty much a given for >> which the manufacturer is obligated to support with >> good numbers. >> >> Add 'em all up and see if you've busted your 15A >> bubble. Running loads only, intermittent loads like >> flap motors, trim motors, transmitters, etc are >> not significant energy consumers. >> >> ** >> >> ** Bob . . . >> >> * >> >> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> tp://forums.matronics.com >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> * >> >> > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:32:10 PM PST US From: "Roger & Jean" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Aviation intercom Does anyone have the schematic or Manual for the WGA Model AIR-1177 Aviation Intercom System? I am trying to figure out the input and output jacks on the box. I intend to mount it in a panel along with an isolation amp. Roger ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:12:06 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Contactors From: Sacha I use automotive "cube" relays (one for the master relay, one for alternator) rated at 70A. They are light and consume less than 300mA each. Is there a reason not to use them? The only potential drawback I'm aware of is that they can break the contact if subject to violent shocks. But loosing panel power for a few milliseconds doesn't seem such a big issue (the autopilot does reset but then in such violent turbulence you might be hand flying the thing in any case, and the GNS430 doesn't even notice any absence of power that lasts that little). Are there other risks I am not considering here? This is a VFR only machine and I'm a low time PPL so not the most experienced in these matters. Sacha ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:21:33 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Contactors From: Bob Verwey Sacha, I have used one of these Bosch 70amp relays for the master in my experimental Bonanza for the past 8 years - rock solid! I still use the caveman relay for the starter. Bob Verwey A35 ZU-DLW On 1 November 2013 07:10, Sacha wrote: > > I use automotive "cube" relays (one for the master relay, one for > alternator) rated at 70A. They are light and consume less than 300mA each. > Is there a reason not to use them? The only potential drawback I'm aware > of is that they can break the contact if subject to violent shocks. But > loosing panel power for a few milliseconds doesn't seem such a big issue > (the autopilot does reset but then in such violent turbulence you might be > hand flying the thing in any case, and the GNS430 doesn't even notice any > absence of power that lasts that little). > > Are there other risks I am not considering here? This is a VFR only > machine and I'm a low time PPL so not the most experienced in these matters. > > Sacha > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.