AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Mon 11/25/13


Total Messages Posted: 11



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     0. 12:47 AM - [PLEASE READ] Why I Have A Fund Raiser...  (Matt Dralle)
     1. 07:13 AM - AA primary cells compared (Jan de Jong)
     2. 08:52 AM - Re: Ignition switch (B Tomm)
     3. 09:05 AM - Re: Ignition switch (Andy Hawes)
     4. 09:41 AM - Re: AA primary cells compared (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     5. 09:48 AM - Re: Ignition switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     6. 10:40 AM - Re: OT: politics on the list (Ron Burnett)
     7. 11:10 AM - Re: OT: politics on the list (BobsV35B@aol.com)
     8. 01:00 PM - Re: Registering a non-TC in the UK (Peter Pengilly)
     9. 01:51 PM - Re: Registering a non-TC in the UK (Sacha)
    10. 05:00 PM - Re: OT: politics on the list (rayj)
 
 
 


Message 0


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    Time: 12:47:13 AM PST US
    From: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
    Subject: [PLEASE READ] Why I Have A Fund Raiser...
    >From the beginning, the Matronics List and Forum experience has been free from advertising. I have been approached by fair number of vendors wanting to tap into the large volume of activity across the various lists hosted here, but have always flatly refused. Everywhere you go on the Internet these days, a user is pummeled with flashing banners and videos and ads for crap that they don't want. Yahoo, Google and that elk are not "free". The user must constantly endure their barrage of commercialism thrust into their face at an ever increasing rate. Enough is enough, and the Lists at Matronics choose not to succumb to that. That being said, running a service of this size is not "free". It costs a lot of money to maintain the hardware, pay for the electricity, air conditioning, maintenance contracts, etc, etc. etc. I choose to hold a PBS-like fund raiser each year during the month of November where I simply send out a short email every other day asking the members to make a small contribution to support the operation. That being said, that contribution is completely voluntary and non-compulsory. Many members choose not to contribute and that's fine. However, a very modest percentage of the members do choose to make a contribution and it is that financial support that keeps the Lists running. And that's it. To my way of thinking, it is a much more pleasant way of maintaining the Lists and Forums. The other 11 months of the year, you don't see a single advertisement or request for support. That's refreshing and that is a List and Forum that I want to belong to. I think other people feel the same way. Won't you please take a minute to make your Contribution today and support these Lists? http://www.matronics.com/contribution Or, drop a personal check in the mail to: Matt Dralle / Matronics 581 Jeannie Way Livermore CA 94550 USA Thank you for your support! Matt Dralle Email List Admin.


    Message 1


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    Time: 07:13:51 AM PST US
    From: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong@casema.nl>
    Subject: AA primary cells compared
    Interesting site: http://www.batteryshowdown.com/


    Message 2


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    Time: 08:52:54 AM PST US
    From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm@rapidnet.net>
    Subject: Ignition switch
    Hi Bob, According to ACS, -2 means it has a starter position. -5 means no starter position. I cannot find any listings for 510 without the dash number. see http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/igswitches.php?clickkey=5735 Bevan _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 9:56 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ignition switch At 11:37 AM 11/24/2013, you wrote: Bob, That switch I asked you about is ACS Products Co., A-510-2 Ignition Switch. Jay Interesting. I wonder what the -2 means. Does anyone on the List have an ACS510-2 keyswitch on hand that is not installed? I'd sure like to put my hands on it to see if my published data needs to be updated. Bob . . .


    Message 3


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    Time: 09:05:57 AM PST US
    From: Andy Hawes <andy717@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: Ignition switch
    Bob -- I have one mounted in the panel, but not wired. I'd rather not ship it, as I'll need it here this week to do some wiring, but is there something I can test for you here in my shop? On Nov 25, 2013, at 10:52 AM, B Tomm wrote: > Hi Bob, > > According to ACS, -2 means it has a starter position. -5 means no starter position. > > I cannot find any listings for 510 without the dash number. > > see > > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/igswitches.php?clickkey=57 35 > > Bevan > > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III > Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 9:56 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ignition switch > > At 11:37 AM 11/24/2013, you wrote: >> Bob, >> >> That switch I asked you about is ACS Products Co., A-510-2 Ignition Switch. >> >> Jay >> > > Interesting. I wonder what the -2 means. > Does anyone on the List have an ACS510-2 > keyswitch on hand that is not installed? > I'd sure like to put my hands on it to > see if my published data needs to be > updated. > > > Bob . . . > > > > href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com > href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com > href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com > href="http://www.mypilotstore.com">www.mypilotstore.com > href="http://www.mrrace.com">www.mrrace.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ch ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.ma tronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > >


    Message 4


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    Time: 09:41:55 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: AA primary cells compared
    At 09:12 AM 11/25/2013, you wrote: > >Interesting site: http://www.batteryshowdown.com/ Interesting. They pretty much duplicated the experiments I conducted 11 years ago http://tinyurl.com/kjuhl67 I've got a new DAS that I'm thinking of setting up to repeat the experiment . . . and add some specialty cells (lithium enhanced). I'm not expecting the outcome to be much different. My current 'favorite' source for AA and AAA cells is Dollar Tree which sells blister-paks of 4 cells for $1 or 0.25 per cell. I'll certianly include these in the new tests. Thanks for the heads-up! Bob . . .


    Message 5


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    Time: 09:48:03 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Ignition switch
    At 11:05 AM 11/25/2013, you wrote: >Bob -- I have one mounted in the panel, but not wired. I'd rather >not ship it, as I'll need it here this week to do some wiring, but >is there something I can test for you here in my shop? Absolutely. Can you confirm the validity of this figure intended to describe operation of this switch? Emacs! Thanks! Bob . . .


    Message 6


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    Time: 10:40:22 AM PST US
    From: Ron Burnett <ronburnett@charter.net>
    Subject: Re: OT: politics on the list
    What am I missing here? I don't see any of this as political as it has all h appened as beaurocrats from all times have written rules from every administ ration since the 1920s and the CAA. It isn't political but just common sens e as rules, laws and opinions are written, then enforced. Happy thanksgiving to all and let's enjoy our freedom to fly and build airpl anes! Ron Burnett Sent from my iPad May you have the blessings of the Lord today. > On Nov 25, 2013, at 12:54 AM, Sacha <uuccio@gmail.com> wrote: > > I agree with Bob's point of view and I also agree with Raymond's points. M aybe it would be wise to try and keep the political opinions to a minimum an d focus on what this list does best. (It being a community of human beings t here will inevitably be some overlap which is difficult and maybe undesirabl e to eliminate). > >> On Nov 25, 2013, at 1:32, rayj <raymondj@frontiernet.net> wrote: >> >> Greetings Bob, >> >> I will focus on why I feel your comments fall more into the category of p olitical discussion rather than representative of any quantifiable system of cause and effect which could lead to an irrefutable conclusion. >> >> . . . a microcosmic peek into a fundamental component >> of the human condition. People naturally strive to >> advance the state of any art that produces benefit >> to themselves. Some are better than others . . . hence >> examples of exemplary achievement by individuals in >> all walks of life and range of endeavors. >> >> I disagree that people naturally strive improve an art that benefits them . Many people engage in behaviors that damage, rather than benefit themselv es. In addition it assumes that people are correct in their assessment of w hat truly benefits them. Many choices carry both penalties and benefits, no clear definitions here. >> >> >> A second class of individual emerges when you give a >> person a JOB of worrying about risks they do not >> share, technologies they do not practice, and >> rewards they do not reap by responding to a free-market >> demand for their product. They too believe that >> they're doing a good thing and their supervisors >> make sure that the most talented among them enjoy >> progressively greater returns for their efforts . . . >> irrespective of no demonstrable value-added. >> >> I believe that having someone who is not driven by maximizing profit over seeing the behavior of those who are is a good thing. A few examples are: N uclear waste; the food and water supply; some sectors of the financial indus try; some facets of the health care industry; some sectors of the transporta tion industry. Others disagree, no quantifiable answer here. >> >> The problem is that those returns must be >> acquired from someplace, usually from those >> who earned it by being a practicing participant >> in the first class of individuals. The second >> class thrives on some form of extortion unlike >> individuals of the first class who must promote >> their time, talents and resources to willing buyers. >> >> If taxation is the same as extortion then this statement is correct. I d on't think there is any question that some people will disagree with this. H ow does one decide which is correct, or perhaps it's not an either/or decisi on. >> >> In some societies, the forms of extortion are >> openly, forcefully and liberally applied. Nobody >> would argue that the perps are despots and thugs. >> But the most crafty of despots get themselves >> elected or appointed to high office and they >> call themselves senator, judge, officer or some >> other honorific. Their tools of extortion are perhaps >> less violent but no less effective . . . >> >> Anarchy is the only form of government which does not depend on some sort of coercive entity in society. All other's involve vesting some members of the society with power. History has shown that those with power use it to b enefit themselves. How many and with how much power is another question tha t does not have a clear cut answer. >> >> Irrespective of the vehicle by which the despot >> advances the state of their particular art, we >> can be certain that in the absence of well >> administered just law it WILL grow. The incursion >> into one's fundamental right to be left alone >> may be slower but lacking honorable resistance, >> it nonetheless advances. The despot is patient >> and in no particular hurry . . . they don't >> have to produce anything of value for a living. >> >> "The law" is written by those who already have power, to facilitate holdi ng on to what they have and to accumulate more. "Rights" vary from one plac e to another and from one time to another. What they are or should be is no easy question. Many would argue that humans don't act "honorably" whether i n power or in resistance to power. The definition of "honorable" may differ between parties involved. >> >> >> I have been an inside witness to growth in >> the state of the worrying arts practiced by those >> who are paid to worry about airplanes for over 50 >> years. I can recall no instance wherein some >> intrusion of that art has receded or otherwise >> been scaled back. On the TC side of the house >> it's still growing. I judge that over half >> the selling price of an airplane is the outgrowth >> of no-value-added overhead promulgated by >> the thrashing of great piles of paper. >> >> The amount of paper required may or may not be a good thing. Certainly th e regulatory body may have made some mistakes. This need for paper is also d riven by our legal system, and the need to CYA. How much paper is the right amount? Who decides that? >> >> I support that argument with the following observation: >> When I went to work at Cessna in 1964 my boss >> bought his mother a new Ford Falcon. . . 6-cyl, >> stick shift, and a heater that worked pretty >> good for $2500. That car should cost about $18,500. >> Okay, what can you buy for that kind of money >> today? . . . a much more efficient, better equipped >> and longer lasting vehicle than the '64 Falcon. >> >> The price of a C150 was about $5K. Inflation >> effects tell us that the 2013 costs for a >> similar airplane should be on the order of $37K >> What can you buy for $37K in a new airplane? >> >> Even forgiving the out-the-door price of a 2013 >> 2-place airplane, has it become less expensive >> to maintain, operate, or will it last longer? >> Why the big difference between airplanes and cars? >> >> Here again, the question arises: Government regulation or legal cya by t he manufacturer driving the decisions? >> >> Before anyone gets too worked up about having brought >> politics into the discussion, I suggest that >> there is nothing political about it. If you see >> two individuals in a violent confrontation, does >> it matter that they are members of any particular >> faction or belief? Or does it suffice to observe that >> somebody (perhaps both) have put their hands >> on the person or property of another individual >> without permission? It's about simple thuggery by >> one individual on the liberty of another . . . >> or if you will . . . one class of individuals upon >> another. >> >> Thomas Paine noted 200+ years ago that there >> are certain advantages to a monarchy . . . at >> least the citizen knows the source from which >> his misery comes. We are witnessing the demise >> of our arts by the work-product of millions >> in the employ of dozens of agencies all paid >> to worry about something or another . . . and >> using the force of law to assuage their concerns. >> >> Unless all regulation and inspection by parties not driven by the profit m otive are eliminated, there will be an ongoing discussion about what amount i s the right amount. >> >> It's been hat-danced around here on the List >> often and usually discouraged by excited >> prohibitions on 'political discussions'. I humbly >> suggest that simple-idea of liberty is as >> fundamental as gravity, ohms-law, Reynolds >> numbers, friction, modulus of elasticity and >> the speed of light. >> >> The definition of "Liberty" is far from simple. Like other buzz words, i t is defined differently in different places at different times. >> >> It follows then that being attentive to the protection >> or destruction of liberty is no more political >> than finding out why some relay contacts were >> sticking in the roll trim system of a Beechjet. >> >> Being attentive to the actions of those with power is paramount. Which a ctions are good and which are bad is subject to discussion. >> >> >> I do wish our brethren in the UK luck in >> dialing back the forces that arbitrarily >> restrict their freedoms to build and fly >> perfectly satisfactory airplanes. Airplanes >> that are probably less risky than those >> produced in paper-bloated factories. >> >> Present trends plotted into the future suggest >> that it's a condition that we too will face >> in the not too distant future . . . >> >> I have suggested that the phenomenon I >> explored is just as firmly grounded in >> the simple-ideas of irrefutable fact >> as any discussion of physics. This is >> not about opinion but observable, repeatable, >> cause and effect . . . i.e. historical fact. >> >> We've had discussions on the List about >> the behaviors of several suppliers to >> the OBAM aviation community wherein >> 'customers' offered value-y in >> agreement to accept value-x from >> a 'supplier'. Cases were value-x was >> never delivered . . . or failed to >> meet expectations but without warranty. >> >> How is that different than an individual >> seeking value-votes from their 'customers' >> in exchange for a return of value-liberty . . . >> and then at best failing to deliver or even >> worse becoming antagonistic to their oath >> of office? >> >> The fact that Case I is a matter of consumer >> fraud not specifically related to government >> and the Case II relate to behaviors >> of government does not make the behaviors >> of citizens in government any less egregious. >> The ever increasing effects of some >> behaviors will not go away by labeling them >> 'political' and banning it from consideration >> in favor of more pleasant thoughts and >> goals. It's like standing in front of your home >> watering the flowers with a hose while the >> burning house behind you would benefit greatly by >> an application of water from that same hose. >> No one would argue that stopping bad behavior by elected citizens is a ba d thing. What makes the concept political is the need to define what is "ba d behavior". >> >> Allowing things to continue on their present >> course has an obvious conclusion. This was >> never a matter of debatable opinions but >> a pattern of cause and effects that have >> repeated countless times throughout recorded >> history. Volumes of study have been published >> but alas . . . seldom taught in contemporary >> systems of education. >> I suspect that there are people out there who's obvious conclusion would c onflict with yours. And those people will site a different set of causes and effects which were never a matter of debatable conclusions. >> >> Thanks for the reminder, I will talk to Matt >> about the second website. >> Political discourse is an absolute necessity for determining what governm ent behavior should be. It is sad that in the USA a significant percentage o f the citizens fail to participate. >> I do not believe adding the unavoidable conflict that surrounds political debate to this list will do anything to increase citizen participation, an d it WILL pollute the non political discussions as they take place on the li st and will leave useless garbage in the archives. >> I posted this to answer Bob's question, and do not wish to engage in any f urther discussion on this topic. >> do not archive >> -- >> Raymond Julian >> Kettle River, MN. >> >> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, >> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D


    Message 7


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    Time: 11:10:57 AM PST US
    From: BobsV35B@aol.com
    Subject: Re: OT: politics on the list
    Good Morning Ron, I agree that more and more regulation is the norm for anything new to the scene, but that does not make it good! Bob wants the freedom to advance the art without the do gooder intervention. Raymond wishes for a superior power to be sure he does not develop any beyond what big brother will want. That is and always will be the battle between the lovers of individual freedom and those who know our business better than we do. (Or at least, think they do.) Those who are tasked with retaining the status quo can always find a good reason to do so. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 11/25/2013 12:41:52 P.M. Central Standard Time, ronburnett@charter.net writes: What am I missing here? I don't see any of this as political as it has all happened as beaurocrats from all times have written rules from every administration since the 1920s and the CAA. It isn't political but just common sense as rules, laws and opinions are written, then enforced. Happy thanksgiving to all and let's enjoy our freedom to fly and build airplanes! Ron Burnett


    Message 8


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    Time: 01:00:02 PM PST US
    From: Peter Pengilly <peter@sportingaero.com>
    Subject: Re: Registering a non-TC in the UK
    Etienne, Short version for all, longer version available off list if required (let me know - might take a few days). In the UK non-TC aircraft operate on a 'Permit to Fly' issued by the CAA. All permit aircraft are subject to a design investigation to substantiate the basic airworthiness of the design, with the basic data supplied by the builder, against the relevant airworthiness code - for example CS-VLA or CS23. Compliance must be shown with all of the requirements, but some non-compliance is often tolerated. The level of evidence required is typically less than a TC design - exact amount probably depends on CAA surveyor assigned. Fees are charged for surveyor time - I believe around 250 per hour. For amateur built aircraft the most straight forward route is to build under the supervision of the Light Aircraft Association. Their engineering department approves designs - to CS-VLA or CS23 as appropriate - and a team of several hundred inspectors around the country oversees build projects and provides stage inspections. No deviations from 'approved' plans are permitted without approval - the infamous 'mod' process. Fees are much lower than CAA - 300 to register a kit built project, 600 when applying for first permit to fly, most inspectors only charge expenses. However only aircraft up to 260hp, (I think) 2700lb max weight, 4 seats max and max 60mph stall speed are covered, aircraft must also be built for education and recreation of builder - no professional builds. There is also a 51% rule. All aircraft limited to day VFR. Old TC aircraft, where no TC holder exists, are also being transferred to LAA permits as CAA doesn't want to know. Annual permit renewal fee of around 200. Imports that were built outside the UK are permitted, but must be built exactly to drawing (detailed survey required) and engine must have been signed off by someone certified to do so - ideally a repair station. The import process takes a long time. For a broken TC aeroplane, the owner would have to convince LAA Eng that they should take on the aeroplane, LAA would in turn have to seek permission from CAA as its not an amateur built. I suspect if it could be restored to TC standard then CAA would insist it is and would not allow the permit route - but difficult to tell for unusual cases. They may insist on CAA permit route with the costs involved. Hope this is of interest to some. Peter Do not archive On 25/11/2013 06:07, Etienne Phillips wrote: > Hi All > > After seeing that there are a number of members on this list in the UK > and operating non-TC aircraft, I would like to find out what the > process is really like registering a non type-certified aircraft in > the UK. I realise this isn't an electrics problem, so any replies can > be off-list. > > I've read through the regulations, and as far as I can tell, it > doesn't look like an onerous process. However, the rumours are that > one would be better served by repeatedly bashing one's head against a > concrete lintel! > > The history of my aircraft is that it started it's life as a TC > Champion Citabria 7ECA. It was then flown into a tree, and broken > rather badly. The subsequent re-build was done here in South Africa, > where the aircraft was registered as an experimental, non-TC aircraft > with a number of modifications from the original design (bungy > undercarriage, no upholstery, raised belly to remove the pregnant > look...). > > Clearly, this isn't an existing "approved design" by the UK CAA's > standards, it's not a kit, and it's not a TC with a different label on > it. I've heard from the grapevine that I would need to get all the > modifications that have been done since it was in a TC state approved > individually, but I would like to confirm that it is the case, or if > there is an alternative, more suitable route to follow...? > > Any advice would be greatly appreciated! > > Thanks > Etienne > * > > *


    Message 9


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    Time: 01:51:37 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Registering a non-TC in the UK
    From: Sacha <uuccio@gmail.com>
    Peter I would be interested in the longer version if you decide to write one (might be moving to the UK soon). Regards Sacha Do not archive On Nov 25, 2013, at 21:58, Peter Pengilly <peter@sportingaero.com> wrote: > Short version for all, longer version available off list if required (let me know - might take a few days).


    Message 10


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    Time: 05:00:47 PM PST US
    From: rayj <raymondj@frontiernet.net>
    Subject: Re: OT: politics on the list
    Greeting Old Bob, I feel obligated to state that I disagree with your characterization of me. Just as a matter of record. Of course you're entitled to your opinion. I just wish you had sited the statements that lead you to your conclusion, so others may judge the correctness of it. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 11/25/2013 01:10 PM, BobsV35B@aol.com wrote: > Good Morning Ron, > I agree that more and more regulation is the norm for anything new to > the scene, but that does not make it good! > Bob wants the freedom to advance the art without the do gooder > intervention. Raymond wishes for a superior power to be sure he does > not develop any beyond what big brother will want. That is and always > will be the battle between the lovers of individual freedom and those > who know our business better than we do. (Or at least, think they do.) > Those who are tasked with retaining the status quo can always find a > good reason to do so. > Happy Skies, > Old Bob > In a message dated 11/25/2013 12:41:52 P.M. Central Standard Time, > ronburnett@charter.net writes: > > What am I missing here? I don't see any of this as political as > it has all happened as beaurocrats from all times have written > rules from every administration since the 1920s and the CAA. It > isn't political but just common sense as rules, laws and opinions > are written, then enforced. > > Happy thanksgiving to all and let's enjoy our freedom to fly and > build airplanes! > > Ron Burnett > > * > > *




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